Roger_Snow Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 How about a social contract then? I kind of agree when you end a novel on a huge cliffhanger instead of resolving things organically within the plot structure....you've made an implied promise to your audience to finish the story. I think he does have a moral obligation to finish the series, subject to health and what not. If after all this time he said "that's it, I can't be bothered anymore" I'd feel cheated. I've spent £70 ish? On the hard backs and a lot of time and emotion, I couldn't think of anything worse than a writing just quitting on its audience. But that said I don't even think that's an issue, it's just the length of time between books and that's got to be GRRM's right to work at his pace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 How about a social contract then? I kind of agree when you end a novel on a huge cliffhanger instead of resolving things organically within the plot structure....you've made an implied promise to your audience to finish the story. I think that there's a certain implied promise sure (unless it's deliberate but that's not the case here). But calling it a moral obligation is rather over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 gRRM most certainly has a moral obligation to finish the books. Which of course means nothing at all, since we can't enforce (and even if we could the result would not be satisfying). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodsteel bitterraven Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I honestly want him to hurry up, not because I need my books NOW!, but for his own good. I really don't want the tv show to end before the books for many reasons. It would be terrible if it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillBones Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 ADWD was highly unusual in that the structural changes GRRM made meant that the 'locked' thing was less reliable than it had been as a metre of progress on AFFC and earlier novels, as he had to keep 'unlocking' the chapters to move them around to address the Meereenese Knot, his massive rewrite of the entirety of Jon Snow's storyline, omitting a whole Tyrion subplot etc. I know other people have asked but I couldn't seem to find an answer, except concerning Tyrion and the Shrouded Lord. Do you have any more information about the Jon Snow-rewrites, for example? Haven't heard of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 There are at least two of us then, but we are a tiny and persecuted minority. I do the same. I also have been known to skim the ending of a book because if my favorite character is going to die, I like to know it in advance. I did this with Harry Potter when I thought he might get killed off, and after the Red Wedding I had to flip through to make sure Arya got another PoV. But I normally try not to spoil myself, at least while I'm in the process of reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 There is no such thing as a moral obligation regarding a book. Artistic obligation sure, professional obligation even, but morals have nothing to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carey Snow Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I don't think Martin has any plans not to finish it. Therefor, a moral or professional obligation is is not needed. Now if the Stranger comes knocking, he comes knocking. Nothing anybody can do about that. Martin seems to be enjoying writing the new book, and states there is far less rewriting. This is positive news that the next two books will come quicker than the last two. That is good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I don't think Martin has any plans not to finish it. Therefor, a moral or professional obligation is is not needed. Now if the Stranger comes knocking, he comes knocking. Nothing anybody can do about that. Martin seems to be enjoying writing the new book, and states there is far less rewriting. This is positive news that the next two books will come quicker than the last two. That is good enough for me. GRRM thought he could get Dragons finished in a year and it took him 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carey Snow Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 GRRM thought he could get Dragons finished in a year and it took him 6 But he never seemed to enjoy Dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrmanakan Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 George will finish the book if he's able this whole talk of obligations is ridiculous. I'm sure he does feel obligated, to the show, fans and all that and I'm sure he has contracted. But more strongly then all that I think he wants to finish his story that he started 16 years ago I'd call it a goal not an obligation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 But he never seemed to enjoy Dragons. Does he enjoy writing Winds of Winter though? I mean he's been working on side projects and The World Book in place of the Winds of Winter these past few years. I know that's all done now so he's totally free to work on the Winds of Winter, but still it does leave a rather strange feeling. I suppose all we can really do is hope for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Redbush Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I'm sure that Pope Julius II hounded Michelangelo while he was working on the Sistine Chapel ceiling...but he still took a little over four years to complete the work he was commissioned to do. Can you imagine how cheesy that beautiful masterpiece would look if he'd given in to the pressure and painted a bunch of stick figures with chicken wings? ASoIaF is GRRM's magnum opus. I want him to take as much time as he needs to feel satisfied with his life's work. Am I acting like one of Pavlov's hounds every time I get a tiny little nugget of information regarding TWoW? Absolutely. But I could never presume to rush an artist in the throes of creative genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thorrand Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I'm sure that Pope Julius II hounded Michelangelo while he was working on the Sistine Chapel ceiling...but he still took a little over four years to complete the work he was commissioned to do. Can you imagine how cheesy that beautiful masterpiece would look if he'd given in to the pressure and painted a bunch of stick figures with chicken wings? ASoIaF is GRRM's magnum opus. I want him to take as much time as he needs to feel satisfied with his life's work. Am I acting like one of Pavlov's hounds every time I get a tiny little nugget of information regarding TWoW? Absolutely. But I could never presume to rush an artist in the throes of creative genius. This would make sense if allowing him more time directly equates to a better finished product. History has shown that's not the case though. feast and dance would have benefited greatly from a more heavy handed editor. This is only my perspective, but it's a perspective of someone finished storm, then waited over a decade for the culmination of feast/dance. I don't feel it moved the plot forward enough. A whole lot of buildup, with no payoff. I've never felt as trolled as when Tyrion finally gets to Dany to have her take off from the city. I can appreciate the world building, but whats stopping him from revisiting westeros once Asoiaf culminates? I read the Princess and the Queen, that would have made an excellent novel or possibly even separate trilogy while fleshing out the characters more. As is it feels like a rush job to get a story told. The Dance of the Dragons sounds more epic than the war of five kings at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Redbush Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 This would make sense if allowing him more time directly equates to a better finished product. History has shown that's not the case though. feast and dance would have benefited greatly from a more heavy handed editor. This is only my perspective, but it's a perspective of someone finished storm, then waited over a decade for the culmination of feast/dance. I don't feel it moved the plot forward enough. A whole lot of buildup, with no payoff. I've never felt as trolled as when Tyrion finally gets to Dany to have her take off from the city. I can appreciate the world building, but whats stopping him from revisiting westeros once Asoiaf culminates? I read the Princess and the Queen, that would have made an excellent novel or possibly even separate trilogy while fleshing out the characters more. As is it feels like a rush job to get a story told. The Dance of the Dragons sounds more epic than the war of five kings at this point. :agree: I can only base my thoughts on TWOW on what we've seen in the preview chapters that have been released. I know a lot of the fandom wasn't satisfied with AFFC/ADWD but I enjoyed the travel and world-building aspects of both. I can understand that after ASOS, those two books would feel somewhat anticlimactic. I guess I would just rather have the author be content with their work instead of sloppily racing ahead to try to meet the demands of a slathering audience :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Giver Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 OK, let me point out something to all of you who were introduced to GRRM's work via TV show... When you watched the TV show and after Season 1, 2 or even 3 became interested in that universe, you found out the TV show is based upon the series of books. So you went to the libraries, book stores, amazon, whatever and got those books. Now, the question is: where did you start reading from? Well, I imagine most of us have read since page 1 of AGOT even though we have seen it from the show. So, even though we see the end by TV show, we will certainly return to the books and see how it truly ends... I starting reading the series after the second season. I did start reading with the first book, but I didn't enjoy the first two books as much as the next three. With the first two, I was just comparing them to events that I'd already seen, and although I liked all the back story, it wasn't very exciting. I do re-read the books (I love ADWD, and I've re-read some of the chapters ten times), but I actually haven't re-read the first two. I think part of that is that when I re-read the later three, I'm not only re-visiting the scenes, but remembering the excitement that I had the first time I read through the books and I like to compare how I felt not knowing what was going to happen with how I feel now, knowing what's going to happen. With the first two books, there wasn't that sense of the excitement of reading them for the first time. So re-reading them isn't as interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thorrand Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 :agree: I can only base my thoughts on TWOW on what we've seen in the preview chapters that have been released. I know a lot of the fandom wasn't satisfied with AFFC/ADWD but I enjoyed the travel and world-building aspects of both. I can understand that after ASOS, those two books would feel somewhat anticlimactic. I guess I would just rather have the author be content with their work instead of sloppily racing ahead to try to meet the demands of a slathering audience :) He is putting too much thought into what his fans think/want. In the first three books he seemed to have a clear vision and just about every chapter moved the plot forward. It feels like it klnd of stalled and I'm not sure why. He had fans before aSoS but we can agree not nearly as many as now. I'm wondering if having so many fans puts too much pressure on him, or if he completely lost control of the story he is trying to tell. I understand it being about the journey, but if the ultimate villain is supposed to be the Others we're five books in with two to go and it feels like they're less of a threat than Tommen (slight exaggeration I know, but couldn't we have explored that more rather than go to Dorne or spend so much time in Slaver's Bay?). The less we see of them, the more likely they will be made out to be entirely one dimensional. Martin has done such a great job of making the 'villains' and 'heroes' morally grey, With some notable exceptions of course. I just feel at this point the main story is getting lost as a footnote of Dorne fashion, Mereen cuisine, and boat rides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I starting reading the series after the second season. I did start reading with the first book, but I didn't enjoy the first two books as much as the next three. With the first two, I was just comparing them to events that I'd already seen, and although I liked all the back story, it wasn't very exciting. I do re-read the books (I love ADWD, and I've re-read some of the chapters ten times), but I actually haven't re-read the first two. I think part of that is that when I re-read the later three, I'm not only re-visiting the scenes, but remembering the excitement that I had the first time I read through the books and I like to compare how I felt not knowing what was going to happen with how I feel now, knowing what's going to happen. With the first two books, there wasn't that sense of the excitement of reading them for the first time. So re-reading them isn't as interesting. The problem is that you can't even compare the situation of reading the books now after watching 1st or 2nd season, and reading for instance after the show overtakes the books. Simply put, TV producers know how it will end, and they can guide each character to that point, but they will have to do on their own without Martin. When we would see those scenes on TV, and after it read about them, those two will definitely be different feelings. I mean, GRRM has some key cards up in his sleeve that he hasn't played yet. TV producers can know end, but the lines, emotional reactions and thoughts on many things regarding the road they take is simply unknown to them. Therefore, we might know the end, but GRRM is the only one that can answer us on all our questions. Also, just to add, I am sorry, but TV show has cut substantially more than just the background story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muggle Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 He is putting too much thought into what his fans think/want. In the first three books he seemed to have a clear vision and just about every chapter moved the plot forward. It feels like it klnd of stalled and I'm not sure why. He had fans before aSoS but we can agree not nearly as many as now. I'm wondering if having so many fans puts too much pressure on him, or if he completely lost control of the story he is trying to tell. I understand it being about the journey, but if the ultimate villain is supposed to be the Others we're five books in with two to go and it feels like they're less of a threat than Tommen (slight exaggeration I know, but couldn't we have explored that more rather than go to Dorne or spend so much time in Slaver's Bay?). The less we see of them, the more likely they will be made out to be entirely one dimensional. Martin has done such a great job of making the 'villains' and 'heroes' morally grey, With some notable exceptions of course. I just feel at this point the main story is getting lost as a footnote of Dorne fashion, Mereen cuisine, and boat rides. I can agree with this. I also feel like the others were pushed out of the story. Hopefully they become a bigger part of the next two books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horizon Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 If you read aGoT the higher pace mainly comes from the fewer characters being used. I mean, at one point it goes like Eddard - Sansa (which has Eddard in it) - Eddard - Danaerys - Eddard That drives the Eddard story forward with a high continuing pace. Furthermore the chapters in aGoT are (on an average) shorter then the ones in aDwD, also leading to a faster experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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