Who will die? Jaime or Brienne?

[Le Cygne]

But she's not acting like Catelyn at all.

[HairGrowsBack]

But she's not acting like Catelyn at all.

This.

I love Catelyn, she's definitely in my top 10, but LS isn't Cat, just some 'heartless' version of her, who's only after blood. As Lady FD stated, this isn't life, and just because I love Cat so much, I can only wish for her to be finally put to rest/ to find some peace . It would be good for her to know about her children before that, though.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

This.

I love Catelyn, she's definitely in my top 10, but LS isn't Cat, just some 'heartless' version of her, who's only after blood. As Lady FD stated, this isn't life, and just because I love Cat so much, I can only wish for her to be finally put to rest/ to find some peace . It would be good for her to know about her children before that, though.

I love a dead, tapestried Frey as much as the next guy, but this LS stuff is a mess all around. It's a mess for Cat, it's a mess for the living who are still trying to help her children, it's a mess for the Brotherhood who started off trying to do much more for the people, and it is a mess for just the natural order of things.

[The Abominable SnowOther]

BAAAh, i say!

[Lady Fevre Dream]

BAAAh, i say!

Surely, someone besides LS can get serious with the Frey Tapestries? :devil:

[Red Wedding Cake]

Lady Stoneheart has to do something soon. She didnt come back from the dead to have no impact on the story.

[Lady of Lemoncakes]

Perhaps calling Stonehart a monster isn't the exact wording I should go for, but I do think her existance is monstrous in itself. Alot of things tend to happen to living people, it's the thought of the dead running around without the humanity to really change that I find monstrous. And, I do find it pitieous, too. I do have sympathy for what Cat has become. That sympathy leads me to think that the best thing for HER HERSELF is that she learns of her surviving children and is put to a final rest. Irregardless of her belief that her children are dead, I can't help but wonder if Cat, or LS, would be able to look a living Ned in the eye and say that what she is doing, hanging children like Pod (or threatening to hang them) is a good thing. I doubt it.

I disagree with her existence being monstrous, as for example, characters such as Beric are capable of kindness or sense of justice within themselves. If she learns of her surviving children, shouldn't she be with them? She is their mother after all, and has shown, within the text, an interest for their whereabouts. There is absolutely no indication within the AFFC that Stoneheart is just out for blood.

Catelyn in ASOS / ACOK did want vengeance for those who wronged her. She does have a strong sense of justice. Like I said earlier, Lady Stoneheart is a more traumatised, detached, guarded, unforgiving Catelyn. Yet still Catelyn.

Was what she did to Pod wrong? Yes. Although, Payne is sworn to Lannister, so it does make sense when taken in regards to her paranoia. Not trying to justify it, yet I do not think Catelyn is interested in necessarily moral high-ground (she probably knows that no matter what she does, she would still have it over Tywin and Cersei) more so avenging and justice.

It's a mess for Cat, it's a mess for the living who are still trying to help her children, it's a mess for the Brotherhood who started off trying to do much more for the people, and it is a mess for just the natural order of things.

It's also a big, freakin' mess for the Freys, Boltons and the Lannisters, more than anyone else.

And not many people are trying to help her children. We have Osha with Rickon, which is a loving, kind relationship, yet those who are with Bran are not capable of doing anything extraordinary to remove him from harms way. Arya has virtually disappeared from the face of the earth. No one is particularly caring of Sansa that isn't a sickly child. Robb is dead. Her siblings, Lysa is dead. Edmure is publicly humilitated and shamed daily, forced to wear a noose daily. The natural order of things? Nothing Lady Stoneheart has done even goes near what atrocities her enemies have committed.

And let's not forget that the people who LS hangs or wants vengeance on do possessive a threat on her children. The Freys, who butchered her son and herself. The Lannisters, who forced Sansa into a marriage, and wiped out armies and executed Ned, and send forces to find Arya. The Boltons, who would benefit greatly if the Stark children were dead, and Roose Bolton has shown numerous times that he is not afraid (and happy to do so) to get his hands dirty. They are active threats.

The BWB want to help people, and by helping people, yeah, maybe there does need to be blood. They have been hunted down. Outlaws that want to help people do have to deal with threats.

But she's not acting like Catelyn at all.

Kind of hard to when you watch your last child brutally murdered, your body absolutely abused and violated, dumped in a river, dead for three days, struggle to speak, and look quite sickly? She's only been in 1 book, no POVs so the full details of her thought process have been a mystery.

Lady Stoneheart has to do something soon. She didnt come back from the dead to have no impact on the storyAgree. Personally, I want her to encounter at least one of her children, encounter either Roose Bolton, Jaime Lannister or Walder Frey, and of course, her brother Edmure.

.

I don't get how some people can find it satisfying (some even cheer for her) : it's a revenge yes, but a rather hollow and tasteless one.

I agree with this. Does it change the RW? No. Yet I fail to see why she (and Arya) are villianzied so much for wanting vengeance, and Tyrion's extremely graphic fantasies are ignored. My point being, as destructive as it is, it does make sense.

[FacelessMofo]

I hope this is related enough to fit here.

What do you think Briene said to LS that kept her alive?

... clearly not looking for "Ok, ok, Ill kill him" but something with a little more context

[The Abominable SnowOther]

I hope this is related enough to fit here.

What do you think Briene said to LS that kept her alive?

... clearly not looking for "Ok, ok, Ill kill him" but something with a little more context

"Arya" is my guess

everyone thinks she's dead, she just picked up on her trail. she told jaime she found her

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I disagree with her existence being monstrous, as for example, characters such as Beric are capable of kindness or sense of justice within themselves. If she learns of her surviving children, shouldn't she be with them? She is their mother after all, and has shown, within the text, an interest for their whereabouts. There is absolutely no indication within the AFFC that Stoneheart is just out for blood.

Catelyn in ASOS / ACOK did want vengeance for those who wronged her. She does have a strong sense of justice. Like I said earlier, Lady Stoneheart is a more traumatised, detached, guarded, unforgiving Catelyn. Yet still Catelyn.

Was what she did to Pod wrong? Yes. Although, Payne is sworn to Lannister, so it does make sense when taken in regards to her paranoia. Not trying to justify it, yet I do not think Catelyn is interested in necessarily moral high-ground (she probably knows that no matter what she does, she would still have it over Tywin and Cersei) more so avenging and justice.

It's also a big, freakin' mess for the Freys, Boltons and the Lannisters, more than anyone else.

And not many people are trying to help her children. We have Osha with Rickon, which is a loving, kind relationship, yet those who are with Bran are not capable of doing anything extraordinary to remove him from harms way. Arya has virtually disappeared from the face of the earth. No one is particularly caring of Sansa that isn't a sickly child. Robb is dead. Her siblings, Lysa is dead. Edmure is publicly humilitated and shamed daily, forced to wear a noose daily. The natural order of things? Nothing Lady Stoneheart has done even goes near what atrocities her enemies have committed.

And let's not forget that the people who LS hangs or wants vengeance on do possessive a threat on her children. The Freys, who butchered her son and herself. The Lannisters, who forced Sansa into a marriage, and wiped out armies and executed Ned, and send forces to find Arya. The Boltons, who would benefit greatly if the Stark children were dead, and Roose Bolton has shown numerous times that he is not afraid (and happy to do so) to get his hands dirty. They are active threats.

The BWB want to help people, and by helping people, yeah, maybe there does need to be blood. They have been hunted down. Outlaws that want to help people do have to deal with threats.

Kind of hard to when you watch your last child brutally murdered, your body absolutely abused and violated, dumped in a river, dead for three days, struggle to speak, and look quite sickly? She's only been in 1 book, no POVs so the full details of her thought process have been a mystery.

.

I agree with this. Does it change the RW? No. Yet I fail to see why she (and Arya) are villianzied so much for wanting vengeance, and Tyrion's extremely graphic fantasies are ignored. My point being, as destructive as it is, it does make sense.

You are entitled to your opinion, I strongly disagree. I think we've both summed up pretty well our stance on this, so peace out on my part.

[modbelle]

Brienne will die. It would be a far more dramatic death for Brienne than Jaime, and while I am not sure if Jaime will end up living to the end of the series, he will live till at least Dany lands in Westeros, IMO. If Jaime dies, it won't be until there are some dramatic scenes between Jaime and the Targaryen (Dany) and/or Tyrion. Whereas, Brienne's major role was to find the Stark girls and return them to their mother and to in some ways remind Jaime of the ideal he had of knights long ago, helping to put him on the path he is currently on.

[NightStark]

I hope this is related enough to fit here.

What do you think Briene said to LS that kept her alive?

... clearly not looking for "Ok, ok, Ill kill him" but something with a little more context

It was 'Sword'. She was offered the sword or the noose.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Miscon_Report

[HairGrowsBack]

I agree with this. Does it change the RW? No. Yet I fail to see why she (and Arya) are villianzied so much for wanting vengeance, and Tyrion's extremely graphic fantasies are ignored. My point being, as destructive as it is, it does make sense.

Personnaly I don't villainize them in the slightest. I just think it's immensely sad : they're both characters I adore, and it's heart-breaking to see them go down that road.

Tyrion I have a harder time sympathize with. He's been through a lot, but I just can't be okay with a guy who fantasizes about raping and killing his own sister.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There are cases of people who, after being robbed or hurt by someone of certain race or ethnic group, develop a immediate fear to other members of the group. It's irrational but it happens. Also, some people, after having a child being hurt or killed by a person, go and kill such person, even if they think it's wrong, amoral or illegal. I have a son, I would probably do the same.

LS is a bit of both. Her family have been killed by "Freys", "Lannisters", "Boltons". In her twisted damaged mind, they're the enemy, even if they weren't directly involved in the RW. Pod, for instance, is a "Lannister". And even Hyle Hunt who got almost killed by association to Brienne, who in her mind, it's a "Lannister".

I don't think she's not "human", quite contrary, she's having a very human reaction to a traumatic even of her life.

[Lady of Lemoncakes]

Personnaly I don't villainize them in the slightest. I just think it's immensely sad : they're both characters I adore, and it's heart-breaking to see them go down that road.

Tyrion I have a harder time sympathize with. He's been through a lot, but I just can't be okay with a guy who fantasizes about raping and killing his own sister.

Yeah, I do agree with this. It is sad, considering Brienne and Catelyn's friendship in ACOK and just how much they respected each other. Although I wasn't referring to specific users such as yourself in terms of Stoneheart being a villian, I have heard people call her one alot of times (and on this board), that she needs to be 'put down'. Not out of necessarily mercy or to give her peace, but because they see her as an active threat to particular characters and groups of people. Agree 100% about Tyrion. If he actually acts on any of those rape fantasies or crimes against Tommen and Mycrella, yeah, in terms of respect, that's it for me and his character.

LS is a bit of both. Her family have been killed by "Freys", "Lannisters", "Boltons". In her twisted damaged mind, they're the enemy, even if they weren't directly involved in the RW. Pod, for instance, is a "Lannister". And even Hyle Hunt who got almost killed by association to Brienne, who in her mind, it's a "Lannister".

I don't think she's not "human", quite contrary, she's having a very human reaction to a traumatic even of her life.

:agree:

[TheCoffeeThatWasPromised]

LS is a bit of both. Her family have been killed by "Freys", "Lannisters", "Boltons". In her twisted damaged mind, they're the enemy, even if they weren't directly involved in the RW. Pod, for instance, is a "Lannister". And even Hyle Hunt who got almost killed by association to Brienne, who in her mind, it's a "Lannister".

:agree:

She classifies people as good or bad. As she and her son were killed by Freys, Lannisters and boltons, in her opinion they are evil.

[ambi76]

Gah, I'm waffling so much on this. If we go by Jaime's ASOS weirwood dream he should definitely die before Brienne (and Cersei should be already dead then. No, I don't think he's the valonquar.)

But... but... but...Jaime is my fav POV. :bawl:

Yeah, I think he's a gooner. Poor me, poor Brienne.

[Booknerd2]

This changes all the time for me...

Currently...

Cersei dies first, then Jaime. Tyrion outlives them all.

Brienne - dies and becomes a legend, the great female warrior of songs...

Or she comes out unscathed but it is a lonely life or rule and responsibility at Tarth or elsewhere. Or she does marry and have children…to a nice guy.

But she always thinks of Renly and Jaime and the memory of all that has happened, she grows old but it never leaves her.

So up in the air still with me.

[Chillboy]

Cat will hang Jaime, then Brienne dies in an attempt to save him.

Both die.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think Jamie will die first, the dream being a big hint at that, I am leaning more and more to him not being the one to off Cersei. I'm kind of thinking the saddest thing will be for Cersi to die knowing he no longer loves her, I don't think he will ever return to KL but he & Brienne will join with the BWB and do righteous deeds maybe continue their search for Sansa & Arya but certainly fight for the Small folk and justice. I have no opinion on LS he may "live" she may RIP.

But I do think they will marry and Jamie will die leaving Brienne pregnant, she will quickly marry Hyle who will return with her to Tarth and she will raise the child as his, a secret Lannister hidden away at a remote castle. With the Lannisters being almost wiped from Westeros by series end. Like a mirror to the beginning.