Is Sansa going to be placed in deeper (no pun intended!) sexual situations in the latter books?

[butterbumps!]

You've got a point there. Whether we prudes are worried about Sansa keeping her virtue or not, Sansa most definitely is. It would not be the way a lady of a good family acts.

I was wondering this based on her belief that Alayne is "an older woman, and bastard brave." Sansa might be willing to do riskier things as Alayne than she would as herself. Probably still not so risqué as to go about seducing someone, however.

Well, my thought is less that Sansa wants to remain a virgin and more that she doesn't want to be touched except on her own terms.

I think the way I see the issue of sexuality evolving in her arc is more that I don't see her becoming predatory with it. That's the major thing for me-- she wants to be released from the system that places her value in the context of her ability to produce heirs, and predatory seduction doesn't get her there. Realizing that she can regain Winterfell in her own right gets her partially there; having a child that's hers and controlling hers and her child's claim through this gets her the rest of the way.

If I have more time later, I can maybe put together the reasons why I see this manifesting as more of a mother-role than one of predatory seduction.

And I do actually see her becoming sexual with someone while "Alayne." In fact, this is why I think the Bael-the-Bard type scenario I mentioned upthread could actually work-- she'd sleep with someone as an anonymous woman, whereby the the man wouldn't be aware of the claim or the like, and thus, the idea that this child is hers and subject to no other claims could be pragmatically accomplished.

[Sweetgirl205]

I sincerely hope that GRRM is not going to have Sansa having sex with that little, icky, sniveling baby boy. :bawl: :bawl: :bawl:

No way it will be "Sweet" Robin. Sansa deserves better.

[Jojosh]

With all the weird brutal sex that goes on in asoiaf should sansa be spared that or should she seek it. I mean her whole sexual fascination with the hound turning that violent encounter into something sweet in her mind makes me think GRRM might play with that.

[Le Cygne]

She is, after all, a she-wolf. I think she's got a wild side, sure.

But just to emphasize, it's all about what she wants...

[juanml82]

Well, my thought is less that Sansa wants to remain a virgin and more that she doesn't want to be touched except on her own terms.

I think the way I see the issue of sexuality evolving in her arc is more that I don't see her becoming predatory with it. That's the major thing for me-- she wants to be released from the system that places her value in the context of her ability to produce heirs, and predatory seduction doesn't get her there. Realizing that she can regain Winterfell in her own right gets her partially there; having a child that's hers and controlling hers and her child's claim through this gets her the rest of the way.

If I have more time later, I can maybe put together the reasons why I see this manifesting as more of a mother-role than one of predatory seduction.

And I do actually see her becoming sexual with someone while "Alayne." In fact, this is why I think the Bael-the-Bard type scenario I mentioned upthread could actually work-- she'd sleep with someone as an anonymous woman, whereby the the man wouldn't be aware of the claim or the like, and thus, the idea that this child is hers and subject to no other claims could be pragmatically accomplished.

if she wanted to he released from that system all she has to do is to follow Jaime idea: let go of her identity and become a tavern wench. And maybe then she'll marry a commoner like her for love, and they'll have plenty of commoner babies without any surname.

And she'll get to live in relative poverty. Do you see Sansa taking that route?

[barmyscouser]

So I've lived my whole life in a male body, and I've made peace with fact that there are some facets of female sexuality that I will never fully grasp.

From my own perspective, I never thought of my own virginity as anything but a badge of shame to be scraped off on the earliest possible occasion. The fact that my first time was far from special has never bothered me for an instant. If had been seduced by a grown woman when I was 13 I would treasure the memory like a precious jewel. Alas that didn't happen. I suppose a young boy could get his heart broken, but ultimately he would still put it in the win column.

I'm no fan of double standards, but maybe some things are just different. In my obviously limited experience I think Sansa would regret giving herself to LF.

I wouldn't be as bothered by Sansa playing doctor with a boy her own age. But when a player who's had years to work on his game encounters a young woman who's still finding her place in the world that strikes me as predator and prey.

[Le Cygne]

I was looking at the line about Alayne being a woman and found wording similarities.

I think he's telling a Beauty and the Beast story. Symbolically, she's trying to make the leap, from father (daughter) to the Beast (lover/husband).

Sansa is fearful, she starts to fall, and Sandor catches her before she can fall. This happens over and over again. And here, he puts her back on her saddle when he rescues her (and this is when she's "flowering" so there's even more significance):

Yet none of it made her feel less fearful. A stab went through her, so sharp that Sansa sobbed and clutched at her belly. She might have fallen, but a shadow moved suddenly, and strong fingers grabbed her arm and steadied her...

"I wasn't going to fall. It was only... you startled me, that's all."

"You mean I scared you. And still do."

She took a deep breath to calm herself. "I thought I was alone, I..." She glanced away.

"The little bird still can't bear to look at me, can she?" The Hound released her. "You were glad enough to see my face when the mob had you, though. Remember?"...

She could still feel the cruel pinch of fingers on her wrist as she lost her balance and began to fall. When his hand fell away, another hand, stronger, shoved her back into her saddle.

Then later, she says she's brave, she doesn't close her eyes, she's a woman, and she stays on the saddle herself (and she hears her wolf):

I could close my eyes. The mule knows the way, he has no need of me. But that seemed more something Sansa would have done, that frightened girl. Alayne was an older woman, and bastard brave...

Mya staggered, and for half a heartbeat it seemed as if she would be blown over the precipice, but somehow she regained her balance and went on...

[sansa] helped the boy dismount, and hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them. All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.

And then they were on the other side, and Mya Stone was laughing and lifting Robert for a hug.

And the significance here is, this happens in her last chapter, this is in between "remembering" a kiss she chooses to give (Sandor) and a kiss she doesn't choose (Littlefinger):

As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss.

"That’s worth another kiss now, don’t you think?"

Littlefinger is arranging a marriage for her at the end of this chapter. She wants someone to marry her for love, not for her claim. And most importantly, she wants to choose.

Before this in the same chapter, when asked if she knows what goes on in the marriage bed, she thinks of "the Hound and how he'd kissed her." Why is she placing him in the marriage bed?

In the prior book, she had been thinking about him a lot, and thought he was coming to rescue her (again, a callback to the rescue scene as above). (There's also the hound dog she befriends, who sleeps with her and licks her face).

In her dream, she changes the wedding night scene, the man she didn't desire turns into Sandor, and again, she thinks of her wolf (this is about sex, from Little Red Riding Hood):

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. "I wish that you were Lady," she said.

The first time she remembers him kissing her in the same chapter (that makes two times in one chapter), she again thinks of Sandor's cloak:

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

And this ties back to her dream a thousand times about how her wedding would be (she thinks about this when forced to marry, it wasn't supposed to be this way, and she also thinks about Sandor as she is forced to kiss Tyrion):

She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders, and tenderly kiss her cheek as he leaned forward to fasten the clasp.

She sees all the elements of a Westeros marriage ceremony in the last night with Sandor (who is tall and strong):

He pledged to protect her: "I could keep you safe. They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them."

He wanted to kiss her (he stopped when he thought she didn't want him to, but she pretends that he did kiss her).

He gives her his cloak (a second time, this time it's bloody, more marriage symbolism, red on white). She chooses to put it around herself (contrast to refusing to kneel for the cloak of the man she didn't want) and keeps it on until morning. Then puts it in a cedar chest with her summer silks, which is more marriage symbolism (a hope chest).

So she's being very specific with wanting to make choices, who she kisses (desires), and who she marries.

(Added a bit more...)

[E-Ro]

Interesting quotes le cygne! Some awesome catches there.

[Le Cygne]

Interesting quotes le cygne! Some awesome catches there.

Yeah, threw some text out there. I had to honor your efforts, you are everyone's hero now. :)

[butterbumps!]

Well, the Royces wanted to join when Robb was alive and winning. It doesn't mean they want to fight the Iron Throne right now. The catch is, south of the Neck, she has to entice people and give them a reason to bleed for her. North of the neck, not so much, but let's also not be naive there. The Karstarks would tie her in a nice knot and deliver her to the Boltons. Had she been teletransported from KL to the Mountain Clans and encouraged to take revenge on their looses in the RW, she could be the face of a Stark restoration without marriage.

But with the Vale Lords, it's not that simple. She may decide against marrying them. Instead, she says that, as Queen of the North, she'll grant such and such powerful Vale Houses the Dreadfort and the Hornwood lands. As Jon said, that's a good way to loose Northern support, though.

Then how do you explain the Post-RW discontent amongst the Vale lords, still itching to fight against the IT? Such as this, for example:

From bits and pieces of overheard conversations Sansa knew that Jon Arryn’s bannermen resented Lysa’s marriage and begrudged Petyr his authority as Lord Protector of the Vale. The senior branch of House Royce was close to open revolt over her aunt’s failure to aid Robb in his war, and the Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, and Templetons were giving them every support.

Why does the Vale need Northern lands? The Vale and the North have teamed up before against common foes. How about the fact that Sansa can provide the useful service of exposing Lord Pissant, they can provide the valuable service of helping restore a strong North to be their strong ally, and together, stand against the other common foes of the realm, including, but not limited to, the various conquerors floating around and the winter apocalypse?

Regarding an hypotetical illegitimate son, she can claim, as Queen in the North (which she wouldn't be due Rickon, but she doesn't yet know) that she's legitimizing him as a Stark. The issue is, this son will be protected by the Stark household troops (which consist in about zero men right now) and whatever loyalty they keep from their banners in the long term. A son who's both hers and from, let's say, the Manderlys (even if a legitimized bastard as the Manderly heir is married) will have a more secure base of support, as it adds the Manderlys. A son from a Royce, or Harrold Arryn will wield even more support from outside the North, even if that alienates a bit the Northern houses.

Why would she not claim this due to Rickon? She is the eldest remaining. Let's not get ahead of ourselves by assuming firstborn son inheritance will return as the status quo. Because this isn't how anything has worked from the first pages of the series.

In terms of winning the North, I'd think that, at this point, having Winterfell go to a known Stark with a straight-forward Stark heir, that no other family could lay claim to, would make them the most happy. In particular, this is a cause Jon would have reason to fight for.

A feudal system can't sustain itself without sharing power.

Ok. And why does this "shared power" have to come from something that slides out from between her legs? This is exactly what I mean by removing herself from the system. Actually claiming her own body for herself and not as something to be pimped out to make these alliances.

She can share the power. I mean, for heaven's sake, did Robert bear Jon Arryn's children as a means of cementing the fact that they share power? Does Manderly hold power in the North because he marries all these lords, or is it because he performs some incredibly valuable services (wealth, minting, owns the North's fleet) that render him powerful such that the other lords want to work with him?

Good point about Queen Bread. Margery did that in KL, maybe Sansa observed. Then again, she, instead of Baelish, would need to take the credit for that.

IMO, it's also the fact that, at a moment in which Stannis didn't have a secure foothold at all in the North, Sansa could have worked against him, as Sansa's name and charisma could have swayed Northern lords away from him, at least as far as propaganda and image goes. And while Stannis had an army and Sansa did not, Stannis small army was not going to get him anyone's support. It was his plan to get rid of the Ironborn and the Boltons that got the Mountain Clans and later the Western Northerners behind him. And even then, it's doubtful if they'd remain with him after/if the Bolton's downfall.

In other words, what happens to Stannis small chances of getting Northern support if a Stark who isn't a child appears and says "Fuck Stannis"? (Note that the situation would still be different for the Boltons, as they still have the secure loyalty of the Bolton and Frey hosts).

But, it's just may take on that fragment.

Sansa not only observed Marg doing it; she was at the "King Bread" riot.

Sansa doesn't have to say fuck Stannis. I'm not actually arguing that she'll be queen of the North. I'm arguing that Winterfell may very well go to her, in her own name, and that the Stark line may continue entirely through her (this is actually how I interpret the snow castle scene-- not as literal building as much as a Bael scenario).

if she wanted to he released from that system all she has to do is to follow Jaime idea: let go of her identity and become a tavern wench. And maybe then she'll marry a commoner like her for love, and they'll have plenty of commoner babies without any surname.

And she'll get to live in relative poverty. Do you see Sansa taking that route?

Um, if she goes that route, then she no longer has Winterfell or the Stark identity she cherishes.

That would be another form of giving into the system. I'm suggesting that she releases herself from the conventional dictums of society and works toward a paradigm shift. As in, a step beyond anything the QoT and Marg are doing (which is working within the "rules" of the system), and more akin to the Asha/ Arianne/ Dany model.

That she isn't just subverting the system, but part of the movement that's changing it.

[E-Ro]

Yeah, threw some text out there. I had to honor your efforts, you are everyone's hero now. :)

Well you cant spell hero without ero.

I will just show myself out now.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Why would she not claim this due to Rickon? She is the eldest remaining. Let's not get ahead of ourselves by assuming firstborn son inheritance will return as the status quo. Because this isn't how anything has worked from the first pages of the series.

IA. I don't think that many readers realize the uproar will happen in Westeros in the upcoming two books. With the possible anarchy happening because of the invasion of the others, greyscale plague rising up in the South, dragons once more returning to Westeros and on top of it the overarching theme of women rising to power by the end of ADWD even if the road is rough somehow I doubt that patriarchy and the 'divine rights of kings' will remain. I think that the common folk will care less about the sex of their ruler so long someone comes to help them. More importantly grrm likes to subvert expectations of the readers. Wouldn't it be hilarious if the Stark who is perceived to be the "least stark" of the family to end up ruling the North?

Before people jump on me I am no way insinuating that Sansa will be ruler of the North/Winterfell. I am just speculating that's all ^_^

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Why would she not claim this due to Rickon? She is the eldest remaining. Let's not get ahead of ourselves by assuming firstborn son inheritance will return as the status quo. Because this isn't how anything has worked from the first pages of the series.

Actually, I can see this happening easily, even without changing any of Westerosi society's rules. If the North does stay with Stannis, a Shireen-Rickon marriage is entirely possible. I could easily see Sansa taking the North while Bran is some sort of tree-god and Rickon is King-Consort.

[Annara Snow]

Um, if she goes that route, then she no longer has Winterfell or the Stark identity she cherishes.

That would be another form of giving into the system. I'm suggesting that she releases herself from the conventional dictums of society and works toward a paradigm shift. As in, a step beyond anything the QoT and Marg are doing (which is working within the "rules" of the system), and more akin to the Asha/ Arianne/ Dany model.

That she isn't just subverting the system, but part of the movement that's changing it.

Not to mention that the idea of Sansa successfully impersonating a tavern wench and nobody suspecting anything is hilariously absurd. She'd have to get some sort of a long-term training on how to speak, act, dress, eat, drink... as a commoner. And even then, she'd have to hope that nobody ever recognizes her, suspects her or that she doesn't get noticed too much (which would be hard with her looks). Pre-pubescent Arya was able to pass as a boy and had far less ladylike manners and speech to begin with, but she still got recognized a couple of times while she was in Westeros and happened to come across people who knew her.

[The Mother of The Others]

Jon reflects on the Northern food shortage, and thinks an option is to send for help from the Eyrie. A few chapters later he gets the funding for this. As it happens, Sansa's in a high position within the Eyrie. If she's in a position to respond to this eventual appeal, I hazard the guess she's open the Eyrie to feed them (Watch, wildlings, Northmen). Queen Bread will be dearly loved, I daresay.

Nice. The kids of the Stark diaspora start to network with one another, not leading to a reunion in one place (which would be a step backward because Winterfell is greatly diminished) but more of an expansion of Stark influence using their newfound positions around the world to grab influence over new territory and peoples and then bring it all into cohesion as a new kingdom they're the founders of, if not the rulers of. Using an LF style approach, they'd take advantage of opportunities in their messed up world to climb the political ladder, but not "just like Petyr would do it" because their takeover will be guided by the spirit of winterfell instead of Pete's depravity.

When she builds the snow castle, to me that means she's intent on rebuilding Winterfell wherever she is. It's a mobile Winterfell of the heart. So I'd expect her to turn the Vale into a neo-Winterfell at the first opportunity. And there could be other tour stops: another great place to take the spirit of Winterfell to would be KL. Rebuild that dump in Winterfell's image too. If Arya ends up there too as part of another plotline, that'd bring both daughters' talents gained during the diaspora together to bear on that situation just when Sansa would most welcome the aid of such a dark conspirator whom she could actually trust for once in that place. So if the Sansa road leads to political machinations, it'd be best to keep taking advanced classes like she is now, which is why I've been hoping she becomes a "real" partner of LF, a real apprentice who picks up his game and starts playing him back. He'd be flattered by this! Instead of just trying to throw off his advances or submitting to them, what if instead she plays coy as if she's come alive sexually but in a way that lets Pete know he's gonna have to work for it.... by getting some stuff done for her on the Stark agenda front. Now he's gaming her and she's gaming him, and the game is on. That's what I see as the logical continuation that'd keep the ball rolling in the Vale plot. He'd be thinking, "Awww, this Alayne is becoming a real Baelish after all..... that's awesome! A chip off the 'ol block. I've got a better chance of coming to an...understanding... with this new Alayne." (The same way an athlete dad is most proud of his son when the kid decides to get serious about sports and says "I'm gonna try to earn an athletic scholarship just like you, dad!") And this new sexually suggestive "I can con too!" ploy by Alayne will trick Pete into what? Giving her some latitude to run her own mini-game in the Vale as a quid pro quo. He'll task her with some of the heavy lifting, make her a real partner in his plans. He can't supervise every little thing she does, so she'll have some breathing room (will have bought some time) to begin sending out feelers and putting some secret Stark-only plans in place, perhaps with the help of the Sansa seekers in the Vale without Pete's knowledge and her Super Fun Night group of girlfriends. So that when she makes her move and goes public and changes the Vale's trajectory without Pete's prior approval, it'll be done in a competent way thanks to all her Baelish School training, but it'll also be Too Late for Pete to squash it..... he'll have to go with the flow and incorporate her Stark-helping schemes into his own. Like the announcement that bread is going north to Jon's hungry mouths. If the vale folks hear that news, they'll basically say, "It's about time we did something!" Then Pete can't really step in to stop the bread shipment because he'd lose the popularity boost his "family" just got, and folks would go back to grumbling about how he shouldn't even be there, etc.

So that's how I see her getting deeper into it with Baelish, by leading him on moreso than by "closing the deal." He'd be so turned on by the prospect of getting a willing Sansa that he'd be willing to wait till he'd met her demands, enjoying the father/daughter dance in the meantime because he thinks he's succeeding in molding her in his own image. Flattery coming from someone he reeeely wants to be flattered by! This might slip past his BS detector. Similarly, I can see the idea to swing her over to KL to hook up with Aegon coming from Pete, but she'd be working on her own stuff too during that trip. And let's not assume Aegon would be repulsive to her. Isn't he a 10? Isn't he (for real) the dreamy prince she was hoping Jeoff would be? So that could work out as her getting something she really wants from this bargain at the same time as a political power play that'd make Pete proud. For a while. Then Pete would be less proud when he and Varys met their fates side by side on pykes. See the irony of that? No winner in the long-standing Pete vs. Varys struggle. They'd end as they lived---in a tie, both equally failures.

[juanml82]

Then how do you explain the Post-RW discontent amongst the Vale lords, still itching to fight against the IT? Such as this, for example:

From bits and pieces of overheard conversations Sansa knew that Jon Arryn’s bannermen resented Lysa’s marriage and begrudged Petyr his authority as Lord Protector of the Vale. The senior branch of House Royce was close to open revolt over her aunt’s failure to aid Robb in his war, and the Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, and Templetons were giving them every support.

Why does the Vale need Northern lands? The Vale and the North have teamed up before against common foes. How about the fact that Sansa can provide the useful service of exposing Lord Pissant, they can provide the valuable service of helping restore a strong North to be their strong ally, and together, stand against the other common foes of the realm, including, but not limited to, the various conquerors floating around and the winter apocalypse?

Well, it's a lot more enticing to jump into a winning bandwagon than fight for the side which lost the war, intentions not withstanding. As to whey they need lands? For their second sons, for prestige, power and riches. Imagine Ser Donnel Waynwood willingness to fight (and get his house into the fight) if he can inherit lands of his own instead of getting nothing. Imagine Lady Waynwood, who's not only solving his family's debts, but she's also making sure two of her sons are now settled. Or, imagine Lady Waynwood if her family debts remain and only one of her sons gets to inherit something. The Vale will not fight for Sansa's nice looks.

It's the way the Westerosi nobility rolls. They are tax collectors, not traders. And, as such, their inheritance and wealth is a zero sum game.

Why would she not claim this due to Rickon? She is the eldest remaining. Let's not get ahead of ourselves by assuming firstborn son inheritance will return as the status quo. Because this isn't how anything has worked from the first pages of the series.

In terms of winning the North, I'd think that, at this point, having Winterfell go to a known Stark with a straight-forward Stark heir, that no other family could lay claim to, would make them the most happy. In particular, this is a cause Jon would have reason to fight for.

Ahh... but that's go you get a Dance of the Wolves started. You can bet Manderly is planning to betroth Wylla to Rickon. And with their wealth, unravaged lands, port and armies, they'll be impervious to Sansa's lemoncakes bread bribes. Sansa comes from the South with an army of Southrons and Manderly raises much of the North remaining strength in defence of Rickard Stark, the rightful Lord or King. And if Stannis gets to mediate, he gets the chance to act as the overlord of the Lord of Winterfell, overriding Northern independence.

It may happen. It's also one of the worst scenarios the Starks and the North will find themselves in. This wouldn't be about woman power, it would be about sibling against sibling.

Ok. And why does this "shared power" have to come from something that slides out from between her legs? This is exactly what I mean by removing herself from the system. Actually claiming her own body for herself and not as something to be pimped out to make these alliances.

She can share the power. I mean, for heaven's sake, did Robert bear Jon Arryn's children as a means of cementing the fact that they share power? Does Manderly hold power in the North because he marries all these lords, or is it because he performs some incredibly valuable services (wealth, minting, owns the North's fleet) that render him powerful such that the other lords want to work with him?

It's not the only way to share power, but it's one of them. And if Sansa decides to go to war (because it will be war. This isn't Disney) while stubbornly refusing to marry anyone, even when everyone else is expecting that from her, then she's going to a fight with one hand tied to her back. And that's a bad idea.

To me, her refusal to marry isn't something she'll stubbornly defend until the end of the series or her death. But something she has to accept, and it will be a sacrifice. Which makes for a more compelling storyline.

Sansa doesn't have to say fuck Stannis. I'm not actually arguing that she'll be queen of the North. I'm arguing that Winterfell may very well go to her, in her own name, and that the Stark line may continue entirely through her (this is actually how I interpret the snow castle scene-- not as literal building as much as a Bael scenario).

What I meant is that, IMO, at that point Stannis saw Sansa as a potentially independent agent who could ruin his plans if she resurfaced.

Um, if she goes that route, then she no longer has Winterfell or the Stark identity she cherishes.

That would be another form of giving into the system. I'm suggesting that she releases herself from the conventional dictums of society and works toward a paradigm shift. As in, a step beyond anything the QoT and Marg are doing (which is working within the "rules" of the system), and more akin to the Asha/ Arianne/ Dany model.

That she isn't just subverting the system, but part of the movement that's changing it.

I don't see Sansa as a revolutionary. She has given no hints that she desires to rule at all, let alone change the system. If anything, the closest to a revolutionary Westeros has is Baelish, with his ideas about the merchant class. There are no conditions in Westeros for a revolution. Conquest, devastation, famine, plague, yes. Revolution? no.

[Mladen]

When she builds the snow castle, to me that means she's intent on rebuilding Winterfell wherever she is. It's a mobile Winterfell of the heart. So I'd expect her to turn the Vale into a neo-Winterfell at the first opportunity. And there could be other tour stops: another great place to take the spirit of Winterfell to would be KL. Rebuild that dump in Winterfell's image too.

This post truly deserves :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: (Is 3 enough, though? :))

Brilliant... When we speak about rebuilding Winterfell, we think linearly, never considering the possibility that Sansa is not rebuilding the Winterfell, but the sense of home... I do believe that Sansa one day might be Lady of Harrenhal, as head of Stark cadet branch and your idea wonderfully fits into that. Sansa rebuilding Winterfell anywhere she is... Finding another home as she was always supposed to do... Wonderful... Truly amazing, MOTO...

[barmyscouser]

I think it would be way out of character for Sansa to push Rickon aside even if she doesn't support male primogeniture. This is based on my belief that the Starks will reunite and work as a team. Dornish succession would be better, but so would habeas-corpus and jury trials. That doesn't mean it will happen.

If Rickon was some kind of bad guy she could declare Dornish law, crown herself and celebrate with lemoncakes. But I foresee all the Starks putting the pack way ahead of selfish ambition. They do have to deal with the IB, the Boltons, the Freys, the Lannisters, Stannis, rogue elements of the NW and the Others. Infighting would kill them.

Besides, If LF has one lesson to teach, it's that you don't have to sit on a throne to rule.

[butterbumps!]

Actually, I can see this happening easily, even without changing any of Westerosi society's rules. If the North does stay with Stannis, a Shireen-Rickon marriage is entirely possible. I could easily see Sansa taking the North while Bran is some sort of tree-god and Rickon is King-Consort.

This also makes sense.

Well, it's a lot more enticing to jump into a winning bandwagon than fight for the side which lost the war, intentions not withstanding. As to whey they need lands? For their second sons, for prestige, power and riches. Imagine Ser Donnel Waynwood willingness to fight (and get his house into the fight) if he can inherit lands of his own instead of getting nothing. Imagine Lady Waynwood, who's not only solving his family's debts, but she's also making sure two of her sons are now settled. Or, imagine Lady Waynwood if her family debts remain and only one of her sons gets to inherit something. The Vale will not fight for Sansa's nice looks.

It's the way the Westerosi nobility rolls. They are tax collectors, not traders. And, as such, their inheritance and wealth is a zero sum game.

Interesting you keep clinging to the status quo when I'd just presented you with the scenario detailing what Sansa can offer the Vale that doesn't involve the system of having to marry one of them.

I repeat: The Vale lords do not want LF. Sansa can expose LF and save Jon Arryn's heir. The Vale will have more than plenty of reason to ally with a strong region given all of the outside foes that will become common enemies of all, including, but not limited to, the barrage of throne claimant invaders and the pending winter apocalypse. Returning stability to the North is arguably in their interest, as this would offer a strengthened ally. The winter apocalypse is something the Royce's would be fairly keen on taking seriously being as how House Royce was still honoring the NW tradition by sending his son there.

Whether you believe fighting against the Lannisters alongside the North is meant to be read as something the Vale wanted while Robb is still winning, I feel I should point out that Bronze Yohn wasn't seeking to stick his dick into Robb to seal the deal. Oh, and interestingly, the Waynwoods weren't requiring either that or gold. No reason to expect that Sansa mut indulge them thusly.

Ahh... but that's go you get a Dance of the Wolves started. You can bet Manderly is planning to betroth Wylla to Rickon. And with their wealth, unravaged lands, port and armies, they'll be impervious to Sansa's lemoncakes bread bribes. Sansa comes from the South with an army of Southrons and Manderly raises much of the North remaining strength in defence of Rickard Stark, the rightful Lord or King. And if Stannis gets to mediate, he gets the chance to act as the overlord of the Lord of Winterfell, overriding Northern independence.

It may happen. It's also one of the worst scenarios the Starks and the North will find themselves in. This wouldn't be about woman power, it would be about sibling against sibling.

Allow me to repeat this: if Sansa is the Stark who is of rough age to rule in her own name, is able to feed the North, has an untouched army to bring to the table, and Jon is an advocate for her to hold Winterfell, then I daresay people will be willing to follow her over the feral child simply because he's got a cock.

What can Rickon provide in either an apocalyptic or post-apocalytic building period that the lords will wet themselves for? When Sansa's coming to the table with ruling suitably, a food supply, and most likely an army? If Rickon is in a capacity to actually be an heir to Winterfell, he's a small, barely house-trained kid.

Why should Sansa-- or anyone in such a position-- back down just because the "status quo" is apparently male-heirs only? And why does it have to get ugly between them. He could be her (or her child's) heir-- not like she'd have to kill him. I highly doubt Rickon is in a position to command his own army over this.

It's not the only way to share power, but it's one of them. And if Sansa decides to go to war (because it will be war. This isn't Disney) while stubbornly refusing to marry anyone, even when everyone else is expecting that from her, then she's going to a fight with one hand tied to her back. And that's a bad idea.

Of course if Sansa leads an army up North it would be war, as this is normally what armies are employed for.

Not marrying anyone =/= hand tied behind your back. This is incredibly stupid. Unless, for example, you're suggesting that Rickon should get married in order to retake Winterfell too?

To me, her refusal to marry isn't something she'll stubbornly defend until the end of the series or her death. But something she has to accept, and it will be a sacrifice. Which makes for a more compelling storyline.

She has to accept? Have you been reading a version of the books where Stannis (or Jon perhaps) are sitting on the throne uncontested, where Robb never became KitN, or one in which Sansa's sexuality hasn't been developed at all?

The things you say make "a more compelling storyline" are devolutions of this story and expose a certain lack of engagement with the nature of Sansa's sexual development, as well as the pulse of the rest of the series.

The status quo is not deterministic if it ever was. Sansa has non-sexual tools available to her to gain the Vale's support and build momentum toward holding the North in her own name. Sansa has spent 4 books aware of how linked sexuality and political dynamics are, articulating that she wants sex on her own terms, separate from her claim of Winterfell. It would be a complete regression for her to marry some Vale lord and produce an heir in order to gain armies or hold this castle when her entire arc is about rejecting this linkage and taking ownership of her own body. And again-- she has more than enough tools to source right now without resorting to this very thing she has been fighting against.

What I meant is that, IMO, at that point Stannis saw Sansa as a potentially independent agent who could ruin his plans if she resurfaced.

No, she couldn't ruin his plans at that moment. He wanted nothing that could be interpreted as giving the Lannisters a legitimate claim to the North.

I don't see Sansa as a revolutionary. She has given no hints that she desires to rule at all, let alone change the system. If anything, the closest to a revolutionary Westeros has is Baelish, with his ideas about the merchant class. There are no conditions in Westeros for a revolution. Conquest, devastation, famine, plague, yes. Revolution? no.

Have you read these books?

Baelish is a revolutionary the way Cersei is a feminist.

Asha, Arianne, Nymeria, Jon, the High Septon (in terms of responsibility of a ruler to the people) and especially Dany, are reformers (and in the case of Dany, an actual revolutionary).

Sansa doesn't seem to want to "rule" precisely (though, I find it just fantastic that the question of whether Rickon wants to rule hasn't been in your calculus). But she does want to go home, the Stark name, and to restore Winterfell. For that, the price of ruling as Lady of the North is one I'd hazard the guess she'd be willing to pay. Especially when she realizes she can do it in terms that do not interfere with her keeping control over her body.

[barmyscouser]

I never make predictions, well rarely, I mean not all the time.

But I feel at least 74% confident that the following will happen.

Tommen calls his banners. What do kings do when large companies of sellswords wash up on your shores led by a rival king? That means that any significant forces loyal to Bolton, Frey, Lannister or Tyrell is headed south-east. This leaves The North and The Riverlands with only token defenses.

But I kinda hope Frey pulls a Frey. He'd be safer in the Stormlands.