Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 5! (DwD)

[butterbumps!]

@Butterbumps and Shadow Cat Rivers, I wasn't going to go as far as calling it embezzlement, I mean we don't know the limits of the Lord Commander's authority. The more the Lord Commander is a Great Lord, the more I imagine that he can do what he wants with his money and his watch. On the other hand the he's commander of the watch then the more that money and resources are the watch's property and what he is thinking is criminal. Practically though there don't seem to be any institutional restraints :dunno:

@Butterbumps, the thing about the wood though is that it would be pretty expensive to get it over land to Eastwatch. Because of the White Walkers and hostile wildlings any felled lumber has to be brought through the Wall - or over using the crane, then transported overland by ox cart. It's all labour and resource intensive. Though I agree it is the obvious and only (apart from ice) commercial resource they've got.

I suppose that's a good point about not knowing what falls within the limits of position. But on the wood thing, that was the other reason I was wondering what the repayment terms were. Does he have to pay an ongoing amount back before spring? If the grace period ends when spring begins, then harvesting wood for shipment wouldn't be an issue.

I'd be willing to wager that part of what made the impossible possible was a detailed explanation of the existential threat that was looming. It must have had to include what Jon planned to do about it , beyond just waiting to be fed and probably beyond Hardhome...which means his plans must have held some merit for Tycho ( and if Tycho should have any experience in the lying game , that would be to Jon's good, as his sincerity and honesty would be apparent).

Jon read it over thrice. That was simple, he reflected. Simpler than I dared hope. Simpler than it should have been.

A long hard winter will leave the Watch so deep in debt that we will never climb out,

Jon reminded himself, but when the choice is debt or death, best borrow.

Tycho Nestoris had impressed him as cultured and courteous, but the Iron

Bank of Braavos had a fearsome reputation when collecting debts.

These three quotes again say to me that financial return was not the only consideration - in spite of the IB's reputation. Long term payment in the form of natural resources would not be sneezed at in resource-poor Braavos. ...We haven't seen the effects of a hard winter on Braavos.. but I wouldn't rule out an eventual forgiving of a portion of the debt if Jon's actions at the Wall/ in the North are seen to have been of service to Braavos, as well as to Westeros ( just a suspicion on my part).

Ok, this is actually a really good point, and might answer The Sleeper's earlier question about why Jon keeps trying to conduct all his meetings from atop the Wall:

Something, I've been meaning to mention for a while. Jon went to the top of the Wall to think earlier on in the novels and now that he is LC he tends to have important, decision making meetings there. One reason would be keep away prying eyes and ears, but it seems to be more than that. He tries to hold the meeting with Tycho on the Wall as well, but Tycho refuses. Do you think it might be significant.

The view from the top is a bit eerie and dangerous. Even Tyrion gets a chill looking out over the blackness. Jon might be trying to use this as a prop of sorts to impress how serious and frightening this threat from the North really is-- putting those he meets with ill at ease, encourage them to agree to terms sooner because it's cold and most men would just want the meeting over with quickly, and make the threat beyond seem more real and tangible.

So potentially, the "trump card" Jon was planning to try with Tycho was the looming existential threat, and maybe that contributed to how they came to terms. Part of me thinks that a banker would want more than belief in the merit of a cause to give a loan (though Rag provides a good argument in favor of it), so who knows? The Braavosi fled magical firebreathers and allegedly caused the Doom, so maybe.

[The Sleeper]

Jon is the kind of character who often seeks isolation to think and when he has the chance he choses the bracing cold. What most bracing or more isolated place than the top of the Wall. Also as a place for one think it offers spectacular and humbling views, putting things into perspective. It is also the great boundary, the dividing line between civilization and the wild, between comfort and comfomity and between freedom and danger, while its scale that dwarves anything human and the fact that it is the place where one holds vigil forces a certain perspective. He is the watcher on the walls, after all.

More than any practical reasons, I think he hosts meetings there, because he feels this is his turf and the best way to impress his perspective and the magnitude of the decisions they are making on those he holds councils with. Ironically the first time a meeting took place there was when Stannis summoned him to offer him Winterfell.

[Lummel]

@ Lummel

I guess my point was that Alys is pulling all the stops. Understandably, she is desperate as she is in a pretty tigh spot. She begins her appeal by invoking their kinship, sayin that her house and his are bound in blood and honor, explains the situation saying her ultimate resort is a son of a Eddard and when Jon twice refers her to Stannis, she dismisses him twice first saying that she never recognized him and then saying that he's as good as dead anyway and wouldn't count on him anyway. She finishes by beseeching him for protection in the name of his father. This tells quite a lot. For one it shows that Stannis means nothing to the Northmen, as the one house who declared for him was usurped and did so only to betray him. She also treats him as if he wasn't a bastard or a sworn brother of the Night's Watch. Of course we should keep in mind that she considers him to be her last chance. She also twice invokes the legacy of the Starks.

It is noteworthy that all the things she appealed to things that Jon as a bastard were never his officially and was supposed to forsake when he took his vows. And she is unequivocally asking him to overstep his boundaries as LC. Why does Jon comply? For one thing she appeals to him as family, she evokes memories of his childhood Sansa shared past. More importantly I think, is that he went looking for Arya to help her in a time of need and found a girl who shares Arya's coloring and build and who might have been Arya appealing to him for help in her time of need. Lastly her appeal to Ned's legacy steps right on his perennial desire to be counted as a Stark. The legacy is something Jon himself frequently invokes during his stint as LC , particularly when he wants to reinforce his authority.

I agree completely with what you say. Alys is appealing to those very points that Jon himself falls back on to prove that he will deal fairly and honestly with people. This is his weak spot, the oath has no power over his feeling for family.

Really his thoughts on what to do when he is on his way to see Alys are foreshadowing Jon XIII and the arrival of the Pink Letter - with Jon family wins and trumps all other considerations.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Regarding Mel and Selyse correspondance, ravenmail is not necessary.
There are groups patrolling the wall on a quasi-regular basis. Between Castle Black and Eastwatch it used to be every 3 days in the days of LC Qorgyle and varying and less often in Mormont's. Now, expecting a possible attack I suppose they would send patrol groups more often. These groups would also carry the non emergency mail and they wouldn't deny the courtesy to Mel or Selyse. Doing the math, a letter would reach its destination in 3 to 6 days.

I would expect Mel and Selyse to have a regular correspondance. Selyse would want to, and Mel would want to keep satisfied her most devout follower (who also happens to be a queen). Mel may have the upper hand in their relationship, but she wouldn't underrate the value of the "tool" Selyse.

Princess Shireen gave a shriek, and three of the queen’s knights gasped in harmony. Another swore. “Seven save us,” he said, quite forgetting his new red god in his shock.

Mel's followers are not exactly hers. They are in awe of her power, they may fear, admire and depend on her but they are also likely to doubt her as soon as she fails them. It did happen, partly, after the Blackwater fiasco. In that case, Selyse as the queen is a quite good backup. Having a queen in your sleeve is never useless.

The red priestess had warned him of their coming almost a day before the raven arrived from Eastwatch with the same message.

An other trick of Mel's, maybe? She might have known of their coming because she was informed, not by magical means. But she wouldn't miss the opportunity to make an impression, no?

@Butterbumps and Shadow Cat Rivers, I wasn't going to go as far as calling it embezzlement, I mean we don't know the limits of the Lord Commander's authority. The more the Lord Commander is a Great Lord, the more I imagine that he can do what he wants with his money and his watch. On the other hand the he's commander of the watch then the more that money and resources are the watch's property and what he is thinking is criminal. Practically though there don't seem to be any institutional restraints :dunno:

Well, we can't call it anything as we don't know what Jon would do, if he faced the actual dilemma. The thought crossing his mind does not mean he would go through to it. But, it's not really a matter of "rights". After all, one's responsibility is inversely proportional to their limits of authority.

It is one thing to use the NW resources following his own agenda of what must be done to serve the NW purpose (that might include to feed the whole North as well) and a totally different thing to use it for exclusively personal reasons - and he does see Arya as such, taking into account that he wants to remove her from the game and keep her safe and comfortable. That's something that does not apply to Alys, seeing how he resolved her situation as we will see in the next chapter.

What I was thinking about is the danger of "mithridatism" of transgressions, starting from something minor and/or inconsequential, even with really sympathetic reasons behind it and then getting used to it and excusing it by thinking that it's within his "rights" (truth be told, Jon never used any self excuses regarding Arya, he's very sincere in his own thoughts). That is often the recipe to create tyrants.

edited for formatting

[butterbumps!]

I agree completely with what you say. Alys is appealing to those very points that Jon himself falls back on to prove that he will deal fairly and honestly with people. This is his weak spot, the oath has no power over his feeling for family.

Really his thoughts on what to do when he is on his way to see Alys are foreshadowing Jon XIII and the arrival of the Pink Letter - with Jon family wins and trumps all other considerations.

idk, Lum. For someone who thought he was moments away from meeting his favorite sibling, he sure did an awful lot of rational reflecting and strategizing on the way. And when it turned out not to be her, his disappointment was surprisingly mild.

Rather than Alys as an insertion of family being the primary motivator (which I think is present and invokes his sympathy for her), I think this is when he starts to realize what things will look like if Stannis fails, and who they might start turning to. Almost like his ersatz Stark status makes him responsible for taking care of the mess. I guess I'm saying that I see alignment with and an intersection of the motives you do, but I think this might be the point at which he starts considering an alternative future that would be as much practical in the greater scheme as personally fulfilling. (I'm not suggesting anything so formal as leaving the Watch or becoming Lord of Winterfell or anything. Only that he might need to start negotiating power space beyond an LC for now).

Especially because Alys' arrival doesn't just show him who people will start turning to. It's when it becomes clear that either something went incredibly wrong with the Mance mission or that Mance and Mel took advantage of him and had other plans all along. Alys fulfills the "grey girl fleeing a marriage" vision, so he knows that Mance is doing god knows what somewhere in the North right now, doing god knows what harm and god knows what sort of blowback on him.

I'm not sure it's as simple as his family trumps everything else, and I'm also cautious to assume that's what's going on in Jon XIII.

Cotter Pyke... It's a pity we don't get to read his letters, but the mere image of the man spending long winter nights composing letters to Jon about the queen and her retinue is quite an amusing one. Does that mean he regards Jon as a - sort of - friend, someone he can bare his soul to? :laugh: After all, epistles of that kind don't strictly belong to his NW duties.

It's even more ludicrous than that, because he's not the one writing them. He can't read or write, so all those rants he sends Jon were dictated to the poor maester. He just signs them with his "angry mark." Which kind of hilarious phrasing, too.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

It's even more ludicrous than that, because he's not the one writing them. He can't read or write, so all those rants he sends Jon were dictated to the poor maester. He just signs them with his "angry mark." Which kind of hilarious phrasing, too.

Looks like calling his bestie to grumble and gossip :)

[Lummel]

idk, Lum. For someone who thought he was moments away from meeting his favorite sibling, he sure did an awful lot of rational reflecting and strategizing on the way. And when it turned out not to be her, his disappointment was surprisingly mild.

Rather than Alys as an insertion of family being the primary motivator (which I think is present and invokes his sympathy for her), I think this is when he starts to realize what things will look like if Stannis fails, and who they might start turning to. Almost like his ersatz Stark status makes him responsible for taking care of the mess. I guess I'm saying that I see alignment with and an intersection of the motives you do, but I think this might be the point at which he starts considering an alternative future that would be as much practical in the greater scheme as personally fulfilling. (I'm not suggesting anything so formal as leaving the Watch or becoming Lord of Winterfell or anything. Only that he might need to start negotiating power space beyond an LC for now).

Especially because Alys' arrival doesn't just show him who people will start turning to. It's when it becomes clear that either something went incredibly wrong with the Mance mission or that Mance and Mel took advantage of him and had other plans all along. Alys fulfills the "grey girl fleeing a marriage" vision, so he knows that Mance is doing god knows what somewhere in the North right now, doing god knows what harm and god knows what sort of blowback on him.

I'm not sure it's as simple as his family trumps everything else, and I'm also cautious to assume that's what's going on in Jon XIII.

I didn't say that Jon was irrational. Sure he is reflective, but considerations of the watch and what he's planning to do and what it means for the watch simply aren't there. Family is trumps.

I agree that Alys' revelation about the Karstarks is a turning point. Jon has hitched himself to Stannis and we're getting a warning that this is set to turn sour.

[Lummel]

Regarding Mel and Selyse correspondance, ravenmail is not necessary.

There are groups patrolling the wall on a quasi-regular basis. Between Castle Black and Eastwatch it used to be every 3 days in the days of LC Qorgyle and varying and less often in Mormont's. Now, expecting a possible attack I suppose they would send patrol groups more often. These groups would also carry the non emergency mail and they wouldn't deny the courtesy to Mel or Selyse. Doing the math, a letter would reach its destination in 3 to 6 days.

...

It is one thing to use the NW resources following his own agenda of what must be done to serve the NW purpose (that might include to feed the whole North as well) and a totally different thing to use it for exclusively personal reasons - and he does see Arya as such, taking into account that he wants to remove her from the game and keep her safe and comfortable. That's something that does not apply to Alys, seeing how he resolved her situation as we will see in the next chapter.

What I was thinking about is the danger of "mithridatism" of transgressions, starting from something minor and/or inconsequential, even with really sympathetic reasons behind it and then getting used to it and excusing it by thinking that it's within his "rights" (truth be told, Jon never used any self excuses regarding Arya, he's very sincere in his own thoughts). That is often the recipe to create tyrants.

I find your watchmail as much as Ragnorak's take too speculative for my taste :laugh: :dunno:

I know what you mean about step by step transgressions. But I'm not sure. We might be seeing that, but also there might simply be no division in Jon's mind between what belongs to the watch as an organisation and what belongs to him as an individual.

[butterbumps!]

I didn't say that Jon was irrational. Sure he is reflective, but considerations of the watch and what he's planning to do and what it means for the watch simply aren't there. Family is trumps.

I agree that Alys' revelation about the Karstarks is a turning point. Jon has hitched himself to Stannis and we're getting a warning that this is set to turn sour.

Oh, Lum, I'm sorry. I didn't think you were calling him irrational. I could have followed my thought through a bit further.

More specifically, it's what he's being rational about I thought was notable. He immediately starts thinking of ramifications (his first thoughts are about where Mance could be and what Mel's up to), and then to where he can send her, since he knows she can't stay with him at the Watch. He's quasi-thinking as a Watchman or of the Watch at least during the time he gets the news and meets with Alys.

[Ragnorak]

...

On Melisandre-Selyse. Well the text tells us that Jon and Cotter are in communication. Any connection between Melisandre and Selyse has to be assumed however, there's no evidence for it and the idea runs counter to what we see which is that Melisandre is uninterested in Selyse.

I don't see any reason for Jon to withhold the vision of an attack from Cotter, simply the rescue mission takes priority. Jon simply warning Cotter that Melisandre has foreseen an attack would be enough for word to get round eventually to Selyse even if he didn't take any active measures.

I don't mean to nitpick but I have this nit in my hand and picking is all it's good for...

We have a clue/piece of evidence in Selyse mentioning her knowledge of this supposed attack on Eastwatch. The root source of that knowledge has to be either Jon or Melisandre. Either conclusion requires an assumption since we aren't told who spilled the Eastwatch beans.

I don't think it is a matter of Jon withholding information from Pyke so much as it is he had nothing to share with Pyke that mattered. Jon mentions Mallister thinks the attack may come at the Bridge of Skulls and Mel says "it may." She then tells Jon she saw "towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide." After Jon guesses Eastwatch and Mel confirms (despite her own doubts) and Jon asks "when." A "when" is actionable intel that can be reacted to and prepared for. An attack in the vague metaphorical terms of a "black and bloody tide" is not. What's he supposed to tell Pyke? Beware a black and bloody tide? What's Pyke been doing if not preparing for an attack. It isn't like Eastwatch is running autumn whale watching cruises for tourists and not preparing for an attack already. More important than the useless tactical description is the useless timeframe.

“When?”

She spread her hands. “On the morrow. In a moon’s turn. In a year. And it may be that if you act, you may avert what I have seen entirely.”

So tomorrow, next month, next year, or never the attack is coming to Eastwatch. I'd love to see Cotter Pyke's reaction to a warning that Eastwatch is going to be assaulted by a black and bloody tide sometime between tomorrow and never and that he ought to prepare for it. Jon's response to that is "Good" which I read as tied to the last part about acting and averting such that he's thinking his Tormund deal may avoid any attack on Eastwatch.

Then we have Jon's frustrations about Mel's inability to produce intel on Stannis or Mance from her visions to cast doubt on just how much faith he puts in her warnings. Additionally when Val says Mel sees things in her fires Jon's response is "ashes and cinders." He hopes internally that she sees Arya but doesn't share this with Val. I don't see why Jon would share the warning with Cotter because there was nothing of value to share, he still harbors serious doubts about Mel, and he seems to be keeping his debate over Mel's usefulness and power to himself.

Putting away the nit... I think this matters a great deal because of the implications. Jon sending word to Cotter is a public recognition of faith in Mel that I think is very out of character with his handling of Mel so far. More importantly it is also a personal level of faith in Mel's predictions that is also quite out of sorts with Jon's dealings with Mel so far. On the flip side if Mel is the one that leaked the attack it implies a plan or at least a significant level of insecurity that very much shades her future actions. She patiently waited for Jon to come around with the three dead rangers and tried to pull of her Mance indebtedness plan. If she's summoning Selyse she views this situation as far more dire than I would have otherwise suspected at this point.

[Julia H.]

I don't personally see Jon refusing a crown to keep his vows. I think keeping vows is not entirely a positive thing in this series. Jaime sees keeping his vows under Aerys as the thing that stained him and breaking his vows to save the city from wildfire as his redeeming act in the Kingsguard. His memories of guarding Aerys' door give credence to that view. The beating of Sansa in KL is knights "keeping their vows." I see Aemon's speech about the ravens and doves as a morality metaphor for this series. Being a raven, black and misunderstood, is in part about breaking your vows to make the choice you can live with for all the rest of your days as opposed to the path of the dove which seems like keeping your vows to please men like Baelor the Blessed. It is choosing a certain public disgrace for a moral cause. I would expect Jon to choose to break his vows because the outcome is worth more than one man's (his own) honor. We've already seen him break his word to Stannis in sending out Val because he felt the cause was morally just and not doing so morally unacceptable. I'd expect a similar dynamic with a crown.

Love is our great tragedy but also our great glory. I'm not sure that Jon's willingness to break vows for Arya falls on the tragic side of love. On that note I'm not sure that Jon's sending Arya out to be fostered in Braavos with coin from the Watch is embezzlement. As Lord Commander he has great discretion in such matters. If Alys asked to be sent to Braavos to be fostered instead of her actual request would Jon have done it? Would it have been embezzlement or within his discretion as a Lord? It is definitely a grey area but the written laws of Westeros are few and in general the lord of a given region is the law. The same act that might fly with Alys would certainly draw critics if it were done with Arya, but Jon has wide authority as LC. This isn't a government ministry or department with a 2,786 page ethics manual detailing to the penny when a gift becomes a felonious bribe or a formula for how much you're allowed to spend on wine given the ratio of government employees to official guests. House Stark and House Karstark have been considerably generous to the Watch in the past. A fostering in time of need seems quite reasonable in that context until family blurs the motivation.

Oh, I absolutely hope and believe that Jon will accept the crown that is his birthright and it will be in the best interest of the realm. I was merely wondering whether Jon would have to go through with denying himself everything before he was to win back all of it. After all, even Winterfell was offered to him on a condition (cutting down the weirwood) that he refused, even though at the moment it seemed to be in his personal interest to accept it. (When he made his decision, there was still a chance that he would be hanged as a turncloak.) He could be offered a crown as well (and not necessarily the IT), in a way that would not serve the interests of the realm.

I'm wondering that because the wear no crowns part in the vow seems to be there almost exclusively because of Jon. While giving up the chance to have a wife, children and even lands is a real sacrifice for most of the black brothers, wearing a crown is not. I know that in the past the sons of high lords and even the royal family (like Aemon) joined the Watch, and that explains those words in the context of the world of the novel, but in the context of the plot they seem to refer directly to Jon.

I don't blame Jon for doing everything in his power to protect his little sister, but I don't think the tragic part and the glorious part of love must necessarily be separate. I absolutely agree with what you say about Jon breaking his vows. It requires moral courage, which is one of his most admirable qualities, especially that he can be so matter-of-fact about it.

For me that is currently the central conflict in the series, the tension between the individual (love, personal fulfilment) and society (honour, social obligation). But as Ragnorak points out love isn't wrong (unless you think it is of course!). The problem is that those two forces are very powerful and can destroy a person and a kingdom when they are opposed to each other within the human heart.

Jon I see as moving eventually in favour of love at the end of ADWD, Jaime from ASOS towards honour.

No, no, I never meant to say that love was wrong. But it does make people vulnerable. Since he became LC, Jon has made very conscious efforts to remove his NW friends from his presence, because he doesn't want the moral and emotional conflicts that might result from his friends being directly under his command. He may fight against this loving aspect of his character, but fighting it also means that he knows (as always) what he is and he simply wants to make sure that he remains in control. It doesn't mean he could refuse Arya when she needs him. At first, in a desperate effort, he says he has no sister, but he never for a moment means it.

BTW, though Jon wants to save Arya because he loves her, in fact, he tries to save just about everyone who comes his way and needs saving - Sam, Mormont, Gilly, Mance's son, the defeated wildlings and giants, Alys, even Satin. I'm sure the list isn't complete. Jon is a very perceptive person, and also a compassionate one. While his main goal is to protect the realms of men, he doesn't love the “realms of men” too much to see the plight of the individuals in front of him. (Actually, that would be more like Stannis's way.) Jon is repeatedly shown to be very much aware that the “realms of men” he is protecting consist of the fallible, imperfect, vulnerable people around him, and in that sense, he seems to perfectly know whom he is serving, and it is definitely not the Iron Throne.

The love vs honour theme is very interesting. I was thinking of something similar (or something different). Melisandre says the only gods Jon worships are honour and duty, but for Jon, these two values are almost permanently in conflict. Then again, the word honour often means nothing else but reputation,and that is what Jon learns to sacrifice for the sake of duty. It is especially poignant because he was so hungry for honour when he first announced his wish to join the NW.

Benjen: "Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor."

"A bastard can have honor, too," Jon said. "I am ready to swear your oath."

He doesn't respond to the duty part, it is the honor that he wants. He doesn't notice what the wife and mistress distinction implies.

Qhorin Halfhand tells him:

"Our honor means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe." And then: "Do as they bid you ... but in your heart, remember who and what you are."

In other words, give up your honour (your "mistress") if you must, but don't forget your duty (your "wife").

But perhaps he realizes in the end that there is honour in duty, too, and not the superficial "reputation" type.

Jon the Thief

According to Ygritte..

And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. “Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”

“I never meant to steal you,” he said. ...

... “If you kill a man, and never meant’, he’s just as dead,”

I definitely think Jon stole Val , by wildling reasoning. In spite of this passage in ASoS....

As he walked toward the armory, Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I’m sorry, he thought. I’m not the man to steal you out of there. ( "there" = The King's Tower, and I read "I'm sorry" as much for himself as for her.)

But that's exactly what he does.. just snatches her out of there ( gives her freedom and hope).. . and never puts her back where he found her. ( He then absconds with the baby as well , at her request - or , if you like, demand. )

Val and Jon can even be seen as the two planets. If Jon is the Thief , Val can be seen as the Moonmaid - she uses the moon to set the time of her return... We first see the playful , flirtatious , maiden-like side of her nature by moonlight. ( And relating to my own thoughts about Val.. the - apparently - visionary Moonsingers of Braavos seem to me likely to have grown up out of the beliefs and practices of wildling slaves in Valyria)

Wonderful observations.

About the loan... I have no idea how Jon means to repay it (but I agree with him that survival is first), so I only want to add that the idea of privatizing the NW frightens me a bit, because that would turn the black brothers into just another sellsword company. After all, if the realm forgets to pay them, they will have no choice but to serve some other power (perhaps even leaving the Wall). That would be the ultimate oathbreaking.

[bemused]

From a purely financial standpoint , I don't think it would trouble the IB if Jon included the care and comfort of his sister in the package. Apparently , they didn't raise a fuss over Robert's endless tourneys, etc. - they just wanted repayment. As I said , I think there are considerations other than financial at work, here ... but anyway, no problem for the IB.

Where Jon would likely have trouble is from Bowen types within the watch ( if any survive) and those from outside the Watch who just don't want to see Jon in command ..if any survive when it comes time to repay. But so much is in flux it's really hard to pin down how it will /could all work out.

I really think Ragnorak's JP Morgan quote is apros pos , and if Jon's character and plans impress the IB , he could act as a guarantor for his family for other loans , e.g. to provide refuge for his sister , or to help restore Winterfell , whichever Stark takes up the seat.. The personal amounts could be repaid by WF ( with Jon making sure WF did so).

At least in his mind, Jon has been carving away what is useless, outworn and inconsequential from the NW vows. He's still in the process , but item by item, each prohibition is revealed as being much less important than guarding the realms of men. When we talk about "privatising" the Watch ,it seems we get closer to how it probably worked originally.

I agree completely with Ragnorak that the conquest skewed , not the original purpose of the Watch , but how it was intended to work . ( That the Wall was meant to defend against Others , not wildlings had already passed into myth, along with the nature of any special WF/ Wall connection and neither Aegon nor Torrhen could have been aware that these could become important realities again.) With each of seven kingdoms supporting the Watch , it would be important for each to keep up their end.Becoming one kingdom would definitely change the relationship.

Coupled with the Others going dormant, and the ranks of the shrinking Watch being increasingly filled by criminals and cast-offs ( not 3rd or 4th sons, etc. ) , it was probably inevitable that the Watch would devolve into being seen as in service to the IT. Over time , you move from a situation where men willingly swear an oath to uphold a cause they believe in ( which is a service to all and to their own families , as well ).. to a situation where men are forced ( under the king's law) to swear an oath rather than lose their own lives. It's become a sentence rather than a vocation. ( at the king's will rather than the person's own )

In the present , when the Watch is once again needed for it's original purpose , the Wall ( thanks to Jon's negotiations) will largely be manned by men ( wildlings ) who have wives, have children and do seek glory , in the sense that they honour personal bravery in battle (not in the sense of winning tourneys).. yet they have sworn to Jon to defend the Wall ( at least until spring ). If the winter goes on for any length of time, those prohibitions against children and wives will probably fade for the NW as well. I don't even think a crown would necessarily be an impediment , so long as it's a crown won and passed on in the wildling tradition - not inherited . ( That is actually very like the choosing of a LC .) At the same time, we begin to see, with Jon , that the title of King is unimportant ; it's filling the role of a 'true king" that matters. So, everything that is not specifically necessary to being watchful, ready to raise the alarm , to fight the enemy and guard the realms of men, could be lost without making any difference ( except , perhaps, a positive difference for the NW men who actually man the front line).

[The Sleeper]

Re: The loan.

The bit about privatizing the Watch was meant as a joke to demonstrate the absence of assets for the Watch to leverage. So what is it that the Iron Bank would get out of this deal? For one thing we know the Watch has very little coin as it gets its taxes in kind and otherwise depends on donations. What does it have? Land, quite a bit of it and reasonably fertile. As Braavos is major city, presumably it imports a substantial portion of the food it requires. So more and cheaper food wouldn't hurt. This could work in a number of ways. The Watch could repay in kind during the summer when it has a surplass, or to the other end the IT could settle farmers in the Gift to grow food for sale in Braavos. This would also have the benefit of being a source of food which is out of reach of its usual enemies.
Wood. I don't think it can be transported effectively for the purpose of heating in the scale Braavos would require it in a pre-industrial society. There are some uses, however, which wouldn't require transportation. For instance shipbuilding. Instead of hauling timber to Braavos they could build shipyards at East watch.
There are also the lands beyond the Wall which are basically untapped and could have resourses like minerals. The Watch does not have proprietary claim over it but it does regulate it and any operation like prospecting and mining would require the Watch's cooperation and protection.

In general I think anything the IB would hope to get out of the deal would be in the same vein of development and exploitation. The privatization of the Watch might have been a joke, but it might not be far off. As it seems almost impossible for the Watch to repay the loan, the IB may have bought the rights to a sizeable portion of Westeros with the Watch as its private security force. This might also be the reason Jon has kept the deal to himself.

ETA they might change the words of the vow: ...the shield that guards the realms of men and the holdings of the Iron Bank.

Some other things to consider though. The scale of the loan could be rather insignificant to the Iron Bank. It means food for ten thousand people. Comparatively this should be small change to what the IB is prepared to throw Stannis' way.

Another would be to what degree Jon and Tycho negotiated in good faith. On Jon's behalf it would be contrary to what he declared. He can't consider what the Lannisters did folly and try to pull one on the IB himself two pages later. I don't see how he could if he wanted to. He can't keep the condition of the Watch from Tycho. On Tycho's behalf these prospects should be immediately obvious and as nothing he would need to elaborate further. The concept "we own your ass" would be something he considers self-evident. As to Jon, since he doesn't have experience with financial dealings of this scale and scope, I doubt that he has a clear picture of what this deal could mean but he does have a notion as he expresses suspicion ad fear about the results.

[Julia H.]

At least in his mind, Jon has been carving away what is useless, outworn and inconsequential from the NW vows. He's still in the process , but item by item, each prohibition is revealed as being much less important than guarding the realms of men. When we talk about "privatising" the Watch ,it seems we get closer to how it probably worked originally.

I agree completely with Ragnorak that the conquest skewed , not the original purpose of the Watch , but how it was intended to work . ( That the Wall was meant to defend against Others , not wildlings had already passed into myth, along with the nature of any special WF/ Wall connection and neither Aegon nor Torrhen could have been aware that these could become important realities again.) With each of seven kingdoms supporting the Watch , it would be important for each to keep up their end.Becoming one kingdom would definitely change the relationship.

Coupled with the Others going dormant, and the ranks of the shrinking Watch being increasingly filled by criminals and cast-offs ( not 3rd or 4th sons, etc. ) , it was probably inevitable that the Watch would devolve into being seen as in service to the IT. Over time , you move from a situation where men willingly swear an oath to uphold a cause they believe in ( which is a service to all and to their own families , as well ).. to a situation where men are forced ( under the king's law) to swear an oath rather than lose their own lives. It's become a sentence rather than a vocation. ( at the king's will rather than the person's own )

In the present , when the Watch is once again needed for it's original purpose , the Wall ( thanks to Jon's negotiations) will largely be manned by men ( wildlings ) who have wives, have children and do seek glory , in the sense that they honour personal bravery in battle (not in the sense of winning tourneys).. yet they have sworn to Jon to defend the Wall ( at least until spring ). If the winter goes on for any length of time, those prohibitions against children and wives will probably fade for the NW as well. I don't even think a crown would necessarily be an impediment , so long as it's a crown won and passed on in the wildling tradition - not inherited . ( That is actually very like the choosing of a LC .) At the same time, we begin to see, with Jon , that the title of King is unimportant ; it's filling the role of a 'true king" that matters. So, everything that is not specifically necessary to being watchful, ready to raise the alarm , to fight the enemy and guard the realms of men, could be lost without making any difference ( except , perhaps, a positive difference for the NW men who actually man the front line).

Carving away what is useless... Yes, Jon clings to the central part of the vow, the part that really matters, that he is the shield that guards the realms of men. If necessary, it must and will override any other promises he has made (like guarding Val for Stannis). The first part of the vow only expresses the circumstances that the NW or its founders have found desirable. It is true that Jon now invites men (and even women) who have not even taken the official vow (though have sworn obedience to the LC) to guard the Wall, and yes, he is breaking with tradition in more ways than one.

On the other hand, he himself renews his own vow in front of the heart tree when he sinks to one knee in the snow and prays for strength, wisdom and courage. There and then and with that prayer, he seems to be asserting that his vow is still valid on the new road he has just taken. Then again... he also may feel that he needs the blessing of his fathers' gods once more – as though he were a new recruit, a new man of the NW - because the new vow is, after all, different from the old one.

I don't know how truly independent the NW may ever have been, but I agree that the current NW is not at all what the organization was originally meant to be. (One can find absolutely similar situations in real history, where badly-paid local soldiers in frontier castles fought against a strong invading army, and royal help was in vain requested or hoped for, as the king of the country was far away and preoccupied with other things.) While it seems that all the NW has recently received from the IT is the criminals forced to join, it is probable that generations of Starks – and a strong North in general – have helped the Watch survive.

Long before Alys sought Jon's help, Mormont and Quorin had noted that he had Stark-blood and considered it important with regard to the NW, especially because they had just lost Benjen Stark. Perhaps having a Stark on the Wall is as important as having one in Winterfell – a sign of the alliance between the North and the NW, the alliance that ensures that the NW is able to continue to serve the realm. (In this context even the phrase "the Black Bastard of the Wall" could be just a rougher way of saying "the Stark on the Wall".)

But there is another reason why the Wall needs a Stark.

"... you thought quickly. Fire! ... We ought to have known. We ought to have remembered. ... if the Night's Watch does not remember, who will?"

“All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks. The First Men built the Wall, and it's said they remember things otherwise forgotten.” (Mormont)

Jon certainly knows what the real (long-forgotten) purpose of the NW is. Restoring the NW to what it originally was or should have been would be a wonderful example of how far back the blood of the Firs Men can remember.

Re: The loan.

The bit about privatizing the Watch was meant as a joke to demonstrate the absence of assets for the Watch to leverage. So what is it that the Iron Bank would get out of this deal? For on thing we know the Watch has very little coin gets its taxes in kind and otherwise depends on donations. What does it have? Land, quite a bit of it and reasonably fertile. As Braavos is major city, presumably it imports a substantial portion of the food it requires. So no and cheaper food wouldn't hurt. This could work in a number of ways. The Watch could repay in kind during the summer when it has a surpass, or to the other end the IT could settle farmers in the Gift to grow food for sale in Braavos. This would also have the benefit of being a source of food which is out of reach of its usual enemies.

Wood. I don't think it can be transported effectively for the purpose of heating in the scale Braavos would require it in a pre-industrial society. There are some uses however, which wouldn't require transportation. For instance shipbuilding. Instead of hauling timber to Braavos they could build shipyards at East watch.

There are also the lands beyond the Wall which are basically untaped and could haveresourses like minerals. The Watch does not have proprietary claim over it but it does regulate it and any operation like prospecting and mining would require the Watch's cooperation and protection.

In general I think anything the IB would hope to get out of the deal would be in the same vain of development and exploitation. The privatization of the Watch might have been a joke, but it might not be far off. As it seems almost impossible for the Watch to repay the loan, the IB may have bought the rights to a sizeable portion of Westeros with the Watch as its private security force. This might also be the reason Jon has kept the deal to himself.

ETA they might change the words of the vow: ...the shield that guards the realms of men and the holdings of the Iron Bank.

Some other things to consider though. The scale of the loan could be rather insignificant to the Iron Bank. It means food for ten thousand people. Comparatively this should be small change to what the IB is prepared t throw Stannis way.

Another would be to what degree Jon and Tycho negotiated in good faith. On Jon's behalf it would be contrary to what he declared. He can't consider, what the Lannisters did folly and try to pull one the IB himself two pages later. I don't see how he could if he wanted to. He can't keep the condition of the Watch from Tycho. On Tycho's behalf these prospects should be immediately obvious and as nothing he would need to elaborate further. The concept "we own your ass" would be something he considers self-evident. As to Jon, since he doesn't have experience with financial dealings of this scale ad scope, I doubt that he has a clear picture of what this deal could mean but he does have a notion as he expresses suspicion ad fear about the results.

If the IB is willing to patiently wait until the end of a maybe decade-long winter and then for the new crops to grow in a place which has yet to be settled by farmers, then Jon may be lucky. The idea of massive deforestation sounds worrisome though.

Re: the realms of men and the holdings of the Iron Bank... LOL. :drunk:

Iron Bank, Iron Throne ... Stannis is iron, too, and now he will be backed by the Iron Bank to win the Iron Throne. Iron is black and hard and strong, but brittle, and Jon knows that, too.

There is also Iron Emmett, except that he has been sent to Long Barrow. What do we make of all that iron?

[The Sleeper]

I don't think time is the issue here. The deal was made between two insitutions on of which is supposed to be 8000 years old. Besides the plan is that the Bank will give them money during the winter. I can't think of another way the Watch can repay or how else the loan can be leveraged.

[Maia]

So, unsurprisingly ;), I have a somewhat different view of some of the things we saw in this chapter.

Not Selyse's retinue though - they are, indeed uncouth fools. And Ser Axell is particularly obnoxious and repugnant. And yet, Stannis had this man as his castellan of Dragonstone for as long as he had been married to Selyse, hadn't he? This explains quite a bit re: Stannis's initial support in his bid for the crown, methinks. And reflects quite badly on him as a ruler, IMHO. Still, it seems that Stannis saw the light at last and left him behind.

And why is Ser Patrek of King's Mountain, who doesn't even have a surname, so must be a hedge or household knight dressed so richly:

" beneath a cloak of white fur he wore a cloth-of-silver surcoat emblazoned with a blue five-pointed star. "?

This seems really odd. I mean, if he had won his gear in tourneys, he would have been a somewhat notable warrior and likely not left behind.

His quip about Jon offering guestright to the Others... isn't actually all that stupid for somebody coming fresh into the drastically changed circumstances at the Wall, IMHO. I feel that Jon is a bit too judgemental there. And frankly, does he know that treating with Others is impossible? Not really.

"Is that whom I serve? Jon Snow was no longer certain."

I have the opposite reaction here to most commenters who preceded me. NW isn't supposed to serve the Iron Throne, as Yoren stated verbally and by action, when he was ordered to surrender Gendry or open the gates to Lorch's men. But Jon is had been gradually starting to serve Stannis, as he does in this chapter, with Nestoris and his warning about Karstarks.

"His fire had gone out some time ago; Satin was not as diligent in feeding it as Dolorous Edd had been."

So, after Jon going out on the limb with Satin's contraversial appointment, Satin isn't even a particularly good personal steward? What does this, along with Daeron's defection, say about Jon's ability to judge people?

"Tycho Nestoris had left behind a copy of their agreement. Jon read it over thrice. That was simple, he reflected. Simpler than I dared hope. Simpler than it should have been."

It is indeed. In fact, it is far too simple and generous to be believable, unless there is some hidden angle that we can't see yet. Particularly since as far as I am aware Nestoris left Braavos before those Lyseni galleys loaded with wildlings arrived at Braavos. If IB had been aware about the impending invasion of the Others, then maybe I could see them being that generous. Also, it would better explain Tycho's willingness to lend his ships for a dangerous mission up north and strand himself.

" Braavosi coin would allow the Night's Watch to buy food from the south when their own stores ran short, food enough to see them through the winter, however long it might prove to be."

Well, this is incredibly generous indeed. An unlimited loan without any obvious assets as security! There better

be some _very_ good explanation for this. Jon directing Nestoris to Stannis shouldn't have won him a fraction of that.

BTW, I don't think that wood shipments to Braavos as payment are feasible. There are better opportunities, with much shorter shipping routes further south.

"A long hard winter will leave the Watch so deep in debt that we will never climb out, Jon reminded himself, but when the choice is debt or death, best borrow."

I find it interesting that Jon sees NW alone repaying a debt taken for the benefit of wildlings. Yes, they are going to help guard the Wall, but that's in their own interests too. Another instance of Jon favorising the wildlings over NW?

And finally, Alys Karstark. I find it a bit troubling that Jon doesn't even contemplate a possibility that she might have been lying - because, really, somebody in her situation would have been tempted to. We know that she didn't, but it could have been the last desperate move open to her to avoid an unwanted marriage. Particularly since she contradicted herself a bit re: the moves her kinsmen made to have Harrion killed. And since murdering her after she produces a child seems to be rather contra-productive from a prospective husband's perspective, as one winter-born child is hardly a reliable guarantee of succession.

"You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father's name, I beg you. Protect me."

Ok, a lot of weight has been given to this, to Alys "choosing" to go to Jon over Stannis, but practically speaking we know that she couldn't have reached Stannis. She barely reached the Wall. So, rather than some deep aknowledgement of Jon's inherent kingliness, it seems to me like a matter of expedience, dressed in pretty language. IMHO, YmMV.

[butterbumps!]

And finally, Alys Karstark. I find it a bit troubling that Jon doesn't even contemplate a possibility that she might have been lying - because, really, somebody in her situation would have been tempted to. We know that she didn't, but it could have been the last desperate move open to her to avoid an unwanted marriage. Particularly since she contradicted herself a bit re: the moves her kinsmen made to have Harrion killed. And since murdering her after she produces a child seems to be rather contra-productive from a prospective husband's perspective, as one winter-born child is hardly a reliable guarantee of succession.

"You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father's name, I beg you. Protect me."

Ok, a lot of weight has been given to this, to Alys "choosing" to go to Jon over Stannis, but practically speaking we know that she couldn't have reached Stannis. She barely reached the Wall. So, rather than some deep aknowledgement of Jon's inherent kingliness, it seems to me like a matter of expedience, dressed in pretty language. IMHO, YmMV.

I kind of agree that there should have been a line about his suspicion over this. I think he was a bit suspicious about this from pretty early on-- Jon I maybe? Karstark is notably the only House in the North who declares for Stannis (and does so rather hastily). He rationalizes this as Stannis being the Karstark's only chance after making enemies on both sides, but he never seems as confident in their purported backing of Stannis as Stannis is. In fact, he pretty much gives Stannis that strategy and kind of omits them from any necessary part of the plan. I think the fact Arnolf was trying to draw Stannis to the Dreadfort put his hackles up, too; any Northman would have known Caillin would fall from the North more quickly than successfully taking the Dreadfort as Karstark implored. I think it's set up such that when Alys starts explaining, all of those weird pieces start falling into place, and he doesn't seem that shocked by this.

On your last statement, I actually agreed with that sentiment in the chapter entry-- I don't think we can draw conclusions about whether people will go over to Jon if another alternative is still in the picture. She came to Jon basically because she couldn't go to Stannis in a purely pragmatic sense. ETA: but I do think that even this shows us that he's someone people think about as in possession of some degree of authority or power they can turn to when other options are exhausted.

[The Sleeper]

"Tycho Nestoris had left behind a copy of their agreement. Jon read it over thrice. That was simple, he reflected. Simpler than I dared hope. Simpler than it should have been."

It is indeed. In fact, it is far too simple and generous to be believable, unless there is some hidden angle that we can't see yet. Particularly since as far as I am aware Nestoris left Braavos before those Lyseni galleys loaded with wildlings arrived at Braavos. If IB had been aware about the impending invasion of the Others, then maybe I could see them being that generous. Also, it would better explain Tycho's willingness to lend his ships for a dangerous mission up north and strand himself.

" Braavosi coin would allow the Night's Watch to buy food from the south when their own stores ran short, food enough to see them through the winter, however long it might prove to be."

Well, this is incredibly generous indeed. An unlimited loan without any obvious assets as security! There better

be some _very_ good explanation for this. Jon directing Nestoris to Stannis shouldn't have won him a fraction of that.

BTW, I don't think that wood shipments to Braavos as payment are feasible. There are better opportunities, with much shorter shipping routes further south.

"A long hard winter will leave the Watch so deep in debt that we will never climb out, Jon reminded himself, but when the choice is debt or death, best borrow."

If I say so myself, I think I have provided a plausible explanation with why the IB went ahead with the loan.

And finally, Alys Karstark. I find it a bit troubling that Jon doesn't even contemplate a possibility that she might have been lying - because, really, somebody in her situation would have been tempted to. We know that she didn't, but it could have been the last desperate move open to her to avoid an unwanted marriage. Particularly since she contradicted herself a bit re: the moves her kinsmen made to have Harrion killed. And since murdering her after she produces a child seems to be rather contra-productive from a prospective husband's perspective, as one winter-born child is hardly a reliable guarantee of succession.

"You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father's name, I beg you. Protect me."

Ok, a lot of weight has been given to this, to Alys "choosing" to go to Jon over Stannis, but practically speaking we know that she couldn't have reached Stannis. She barely reached the Wall. So, rather than some deep aknowledgement of Jon's inherent kingliness, it seems to me like a matter of expedience, dressed in pretty language. IMHO, YmMV.

I don't see what possible scam she could have been trying to pull showing up alone and starving at the Wall. Any information she reitetrates agrees with everything else we know, as readers. All she says sounds plausible and she really seems to be at the end of her rope. As to why she diidn't try for Stannis? She considers him a dead man. She coud well have asked Jon to write to Stannis on her behalf, if she couldn't reach him herself. Not that I consider her a friend to Jon in the long run. Robb did behead her father and largely placed her in her current predicament. But I don't see what she could have lied about or what she could have hoped to achieve by it.

"A long hard winter will leave the Watch so deep in debt that we will never climb out, Jon reminded himself, but when the choice is debt or death, best borrow."

I find it interesting that Jon sees NW alone repaying a debt taken for the benefit of wildlings. Yes, they are going to help guard the Wall, but that's in their own interests too. Another instance of Jon favorising the wildlings over NW?

There are two groups in the north that can and would take the Watch's food reserves in the north that would assault the Watch for any supplies it has. And the Watch has little or no chance to fight them off. These groups would be Stannis and the wildlings. Jon's options come down to this: fight them or feed them. As one group is already south of the Wall and he can't stop the other form getting there, it doesn't seem to me that he has many options on the matter.

[Julia H.]

So, after Jon going out on the limb with Satin's contraversial appointment, Satin isn't even a particularly good personal steward? What does this, along with Daeron's defection, say about Jon's ability to judge people?

I find it interesting that Jon sees NW alone repaying a debt taken for the benefit of wildlings. Yes, they are going to help guard the Wall, but that's in their own interests too. Another instance of Jon favorising the wildlings over NW?

And finally, Alys Karstark. I find it a bit troubling that Jon doesn't even contemplate a possibility that she might have been lying - because, really, somebody in her situation would have been tempted to. We know that she didn't, but it could have been the last desperate move open to her to avoid an unwanted marriage. Particularly since she contradicted herself a bit re: the moves her kinsmen made to have Harrion killed. And since murdering her after she produces a child seems to be rather contra-productive from a prospective husband's perspective, as one winter-born child is hardly a reliable guarantee of succession.

"You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father's name, I beg you. Protect me."

Ok, a lot of weight has been given to this, to Alys "choosing" to go to Jon over Stannis, but practically speaking we know that she couldn't have reached Stannis. She barely reached the Wall. So, rather than some deep aknowledgement of Jon's inherent kingliness, it seems to me like a matter of expedience, dressed in pretty language. IMHO, YmMV.

Jon gave Dareon the only job he could have been good at. Dareon had never been considered a potential warrior, but Jon is of the opinion that all metals are good for something. Dareon may not have been good for anything, but you couldn't really tell that before trying him. Besides, Jon needed the remaining warriors on the Wall, so he gave Dareon a chance to prove himself in his own way.

The Wall is the place where everybody gets a chance to start anew.

In the end, Dareon didn't bring back any new recruits, but then Yoren had only ever brought back criminals. True, at least no one had ever wanted to tempt Yoren into desertion.

Satin has proved to be good and brave enough in battle. He may be a lazy steward, but if Jon keeps him by his side to give him a chance to learn and improve, he cannot really expect him to be perfect from the start. Jon may also want to keep him away from some of the brothers (and perhaps not only for Satin's sake but also to avoid trouble among the brothers), and for this purpose he may be willing to overlook a colder room now and then – or perhaps he won't entirely overlook it, only he doesn't start lecturing the boy in front of the banker.

Another instance of Jon favorising the wildlings over NW?

Or perhaps Jon already regards the wildlings as part of the NW – the NW in a broader sense. To make them part of an extended NW is probably a goal he wants to achieve before the repayment is due. BTW, he will also make the wildlings pay, though not directly to the IB but to the Watch.

I don't see what possible scam she could have been trying to pull showing up alone and starving at the Wall. Any information she reitetrates agrees with everything else we know, as readers. All she says sounds plausible and she really seems to be at the end of her rope. As to why she diidn't try for Stannis? She considers him a dead man. She coud well have asked Jon to write to Stannis on her behalf, if she couldn't reach him herself. Not that I consider her a friend to Jon in the long run. Robb did behead her father and largely placed her in her current predicament. But I don't see what she could have lied about or what she could have hoped to achieve by it.

There are two groups in the north that can and would take the Watch's food reserves in the north that would assault the Watch for any supplies it has. And the Watch has little or no chance to fight them off. These groups would be Stannis and the wildlings. Jon's options come down to this: fight them or feed them. As one group is already south of the Wall and he can't stop the other form getting there, it doesn't seem to me that he has many options on the matter.

Alys wants to have nothing with Stannis, not even through Jon, who actually offers to write to Stannis on Alys's behalf. In person, Stannis is unreachable (kings usually are, in the eyes of northmen at least), but it isn't so easy to get to Jon either. The ride to the Wall is extremely dangerous and she arrives nearly starved to death on a dying horse. On arrival, she asks Jon whether there is blood feud between them – an additional risk that she had to take into consideration before setting out for the Wall. Jon is still not the last surviving Northman, yet Alys takes all that risk to find him and ask him to protect her.

What I find curious is how well-informed Jon is regarding the affairs of the North. He knows exactly why and how Karstark died (… slew two prisoners … Unarmed boys, squires in a cell). When he gave Stannis advice, he knew the Greatjon was the Lannisters' captive. He never leaves the Wall, yet he knows precise details of recent war events. Earlier it was discussed what Jon could know about the character of Ramsay Bolton. The way he reacts to the news of Arya being Ramsay's bride is telling enough. Since we know he has access to other information about the North, it is likely that he has heard recent news about the Boltons as well.

"...one hears queer talk of dragons.

"Would that we had one here. A dragon might warm things up a bit."

Isn't that what is happening?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

a few scattered thoughts-

The Loan-

When thinking about what Jon could offer the IB for collateral, the term to dredge up from English history is Naval Stores. Braavos depends on its navy to survive, (and needs ships for commerce as well), but lacks access to all the products needed to build them. Not just wood for hulls, but tall pine trees for masts, hemp for rope, pitch for sealing hulls, etc. England had to import a great deal of these items from the Baltic coasts, and was always very careful to keep that trade route free. New England came to play the same role later. I can definitely see Jon being willing to grant Braavos some long-term leases (100+ years) in the Gift for tree plantations (for masts), hemp farms, and the like.

Silver for Arya

When I read this, I never thought that Jon would be willing to finance Arya's overseas maintenance out of NW coffers. I assumed he was simply thinking about finding a "sponsor" for her, acting as a middleman between some Braavosi family and a hitherto undetermined northern lord, who would be the source of the money. Some Braavosi investor might be willing to support a young girl in order to curry favor with, say, the Manderlys, Jon might be thinking. He really hasn't thought it out very well, since he never thought the situation would come up.

Shireen

Although Selyse's party seems to be comprised entirely of fools, I felt that Shireen was actually portrayed rather sympathetically. She seems to be excited about meeting Wun Wun, and rather curious. Did anyone else get this vibe? If so, will it have important consequences later?

On Jon and Crowns

I agree with Julia H about Jon's history of not seeking out leadership roles, but accepting them when they are thrust upon him. I don't think he would accept a crown unless it was absolutely necessary to achieve some other purpose. Even then, he might have an "out". Remember Duncan the Small, who managed to get himself removed from the line of succession due to his marriage. (This is assuming that Jon's status changes due to events at the the end of Dance, of course.)