Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 5! (DwD)

[The Sleeper]

Rereading the chapter I was struck by how parochial Jon is - asking Nestoris if he had seen Sam, Aemon and Gilly. Jon plainly has no idea how big and busy Braavos is. In that sense contra Florent he definitely isn't a man of the world!

The Iron Bank comes in with the idea of the power of money. I'm not sure how well that works practically in this setting, but never mind, a more interesting issue is how does it sit with Varys' riddle? Here Jon believes that the merchant's money can win the throne yet over in Essos or in the approach to Winterfell we see that other people don't think like that, they don't think that money is enough, that there has to be a cause that people believe in whether that be The Ned's little girl or Prince Aegon.

Regarding Jon asking about Sam it sounds to me like that awkward moment where he has to come up for a subject for small talk.

One observation regarding the Iron Bank and Stannis, is that Jon has the tendency to grasp at straws in order to convince himself that Stannis might win or rather that the Lannisters will lose. His optimism seems excessive and premature, still Stannis might now get the chance to become what he has intermittently been: a serious contender.

The value people place in gold is largely arbirtrary. After all as a metal it has limited uses. It has though significant advantages over the other kinds of power Varys proposes. For one thing the consensus on its value is pretty much universal and as such it provides the proverbial swordsman something tangible as motivation and something that would belong to him.

The wildlings running off down the kings road - if they can't stop the Moles Town wildings from running off then what does Jon image will happen when Tormund's people come through the Wall? What cause will keep them at their duty?

No one else is like to feed or house them. Some will run away, but most are in no condition to go raiding, nor would they chose to when there is an easier alternative.

[ArabellaVidal]

Great analysis, everybody. I don't have much to add at this point, just:

In a way, I think Alys showing up at Castle Black and wanting to Jon and not to Stannis is meant to show in what a strange situation the North is and what they think of the Southrons. Usually, someone like Alys would go to Winterfell. There, she would talk to the Stark in Winterfell who would settle things without the king on the IT ever hearing about it. Alys not going to Stannis reflects that, I think. The North as a whole is in a situation they have likely not have had in quite some time: There is no Stark in Winterfell. The family that has ruled the North for over 8000 years is all but extinct. But that doesn't mean that people have forgotten. The North remembers, is a phrase that's repeated quite often. Here Alys decides to go to the last Stark, even if his name is Snow and he has taken the black, over a king, because even though Thorren Stark bend the knee, the Starks never really stopped being kings of the North. Until Robb, they simply never wore the title again. What I'm trying to say is that Alys seems to react to the fact that there are no Starks in WF anymore rather pragmatic: There is a son of Eddard Stark left, he is in a position to help (LC of the NW), let's go there. It's never specified how the other Northerners think of this, but I don't think Alys would have gone to LC Mormont. The fact that Jon is Eddard Starks son is something that people very much remember.

(I'm sorry if this was confusing, I just hope it made some sense)

It also reminds me of Ned's reputation. That when he/the Starks ruled the North a woman travelling naked wouldn't be molested. Am I remembering this right?

Thanks for putting the timeline in perspective here, butterbumps.

[butterbumps!]

the boldest of the queen's knights moved forward, steel in hand

Ser Patrek tries again later, and he learns he should have listened to Jon: "You do not want to anger him."

I think it's also significant that anyone who witnessed the scene here between Ser Darwin Award and Wun Wun would know exactly how to create a distraction if that was ever an aim.

On that note, this is why I chose that particular epigraph quote for this chapter. I think it's a humorous line on its own (hence, why it's my sig), but it's actually a bit more ominous, especially in light of Jon XIII. Jon thinks this line in the midst of trying to deal with a bunch of pretty incompatible factions coming together. The presence of a drunken giant in the mix would put such a situation over the edge. And, lo and behold, a drunken giant will be added to the mix, whether by accident of god or an intentionally created distraction.

Very nice work, Butterbumps. So much in this chapter...

Bloody Southron Fools

The negative portrayal of Selyse and company is so bad that it is only reasonable to call into question whether or not some POV bias is at play. I don't think that is it. Part of it may be that these are the men Stannis didn't see fit to bring with him. Perhaps Axell is the worst but his words condemn him without any of Jon's perspective taken into account. This chapter also comes after Asha's where this North vs. South divide is also blatantly on display.

I realized something kind of funny. This is the first (and I think only) chapter I'd been assigned to here that I'd also done 2 years ago during the LtL reread. Then, like now, it was a real struggle to not write a volume of editorializing about Southron fools. I recall that this is the chapter that pushed me over the edge, "inspiring" me to write a (very self-indulgent, not entirely serious) "retrospective" on "Jackanapes at the Wall" in order to take it elsewhere.

The NW serves the Realm. Once the Targs conquered Westeros, they equated the IT to the Realm. I think Jon is considering the possibility that the Realm and the IT may not be synonymous.

I've always assumed that the Lord Commander of the NW is in fact considered the actual Lord of the territories under his control (Brandon's Gift and the New Gift) with the same rights and duties as any other major Lord. Not long ago, minor lords in holdfasts with attendant smallfolk in villages, like Queenscrown, occupied the Gift. These smallfok weren't members of the Watch. They were bound to the NW the same way smallfolk are bound to Lords throughout Westeros (the manor system). (It would be interesting to know if the holdfast at Queenscrown passed to a NW officer once the New Gift was added to the Watch, or if a non-Watch bannerman continued to hold it.) The LCotNW would have been their Lord. If some villager committed a serious crime, the LC presumably heard the case and passed judgement.

In other words, the NW serves the realm, and it subservient to the realm, not to Winterfell. The LC is a Lord on the same level in theory as the other Lords Paramount, although he has much less actual prestige. The Stark in Winterfell does not hold authority over NW lands. If a LC goes rogue, the Stark in Winterfell deals with it not in his capacity as Lord Paramount of the North (formerly King in the North) but as a representative of the entire realm (Warden of the North in the Targ era), simply because he is closest.

I think that the LC's power would extend to justice over crimes committed on his territories by anyone, not just his own bannermen. For example, if a cattle thief stole some livestock from the Umbers and fled onto NW land, it would be the duty of the NW to catch him and see that justice was rendered. (The NW would also collect all the fines for speeding on the Kingsroad in their jurisdiction.) This seems to be the authority Jon is using. Alys Karstark is the rightful regent of Karhold while Harrion is captive, by longstanding law. Arnolf and Cregan are breaking the law, and if Cregan ventures into NW territory, it is the LC's duty to deal with it, especially when the rightful Lady of Karhold requests action.

At least that's how I interpreted this.

I like your observation about Jon's realization that the realm and IT are not synonymous. I also agree with the way you explained the (at least theoretical) power of the LC in relation to the overall power dynamics, and Winterfell not as an authority over the Watch necessarily, but as a representative of the realm.

The question of food

I don't think Jon is burying his head in the sand. He has asked for information from the one who is by profession the most competent at that matter. He understands the problem even though he doesn't have a ready-made solution. However, it is not that they are starving at the moment. The food they have will last for a while and in the meantime a solution can be found – as we know, Jon will find a solution. Yes, he shares their food supplies with the wildlings, meaning that less of that food will go to his brothers, but he means to find a way to feed them all in the long run.

As for the question of hunting in the Gift, they may be able to do that at the moment, but I doubt that it could be a long-term solution. The winter that is coming may last for a decade. How long will rabbits live in the Gift when the land is covered with snow and ice for years? If they are also hunted, the rabbit population will be extinct pretty soon. Jon needs to worry about their future supplies, and the rabbits of the present can't really help that.

Welcome aboard! I think I agree with the parts I snipped; I definitely think Jon's been reforming the way education and recruiting happens at the Wall according to what's most useful to the Watch. Emmett shows a much different model of instructor than Thorne, in both attitude and in refocusing sword instruction from a knight's training to something perhaps more useful. I think the fact that Emmett genuinely seems to enjoy making the boys better was a major reason he appointed him. And with Leathers, he expands the training from exclusively physical to understanding wildlings and the common enemy as well.

And yea, I definitely don't think Jon's choosing to ignore the food issue. During the Bowen inventory meeting, the issue of buying food from the Vale is raised, but a lack of funding closes that door for the meantime. When he hears that a banker showed up at Eastwatch, his mind immediately sees this as the missing piece to solve that puzzle. Jon's interesting to me in this way-- he tends to hold out hope for a more sustainable solution to various problems, and eventually, the solution presents itself (I say "tends to" because it's not always the case). I think his hope wrt Stannis would fall into this category as well. ETA: I think this has positive virtue, and shows that there are still people in this story who have hope, and really, sometimes it does promise to work out like that, but it can also become a negative in terms of naiveté or wishful thinking.

Welcome to the reread Julia H. ! Don't worry, diving in like that is fine.

Yeah, I don't know on the question of food. In chapter IX Jon does reach towards a possible solution but we don't even know if it will work out - the loan agreement hasn't even reached Braavos by the end of ADWD so we are no where near the Night's Watch getting the cash or finding people who can and will sell them food (while they do get a haul of tradable items from the wildlings in a few chapters time by the end of ADWD the watch won't have any ships to take them to foreign markets so we're back to where we started).

One thing that I'm not sure of is who took out this loan. Is the loan in Jon's name or on the Watch's account? This distinction could become rather significant in the future.

I also suspect that there is a much bigger theme at play and I'm not quite sure what to make of it yet. Looking back to GoT the prologue uses a similar caricature presentation of Royce where he assumes the role of the Southron Fool. There is also age vs. youth and noble vs. common at play in that chapter. It feels like a horror movie where Royce is the guy who wants to check out the noise in the basement which adds to his diminished credibility in the reader's eye. His observations about it not being cold enough to die, the weapons, etc are actually quite reasonable despite the feel of the chapter and his choice of no fire is the same one The Halfhand makes. Royce is far more competent and reasonable than the mood of his portrayal imply.

Yea, this is pretty much what I'm really cautious about too. I don't know what to make of it yet, other than the possibility that these Southron fools are crafty in their own way and might be engaging in some aspect of conspiracy amongst themselves. Smart people are dangerous in the longer-term; they're smart enough to know that beating their enemies senseless at the first sign of perceived weakness might not ultimately work out, and to wait for the right conditions. Less smart people don't, though, and can be a lot more dangerous in the short term, even if it means they'll eventually fall for their stupidity (i.e. a lot of damage would already be done). Which is to say that I can see Selyse's party still being extremely dangerous to Jon and/or the Watch, even if she and the Queens Men are not the sharpest tools in the shed.

So dismissing them as inconvenient idiots might be a mistake. I mean, he might not be wrong to see them as idiots, but idiots can still be extremely dangerous.

Regarding Jon asking about Sam it sounds to me like that awkward moment where he has to come up for a subject for small talk.

This is how I understood it, too. And no harm in asking on the off-chance Tycho spotted the party. I think an underlying issue is that he's just really starved for Sam and Aemon's company, so any mention of them would have been welcome, not that he thinks there's a high probability that they would have run into each other.

It also reminds me of Ned's reputation. That when he/the Starks ruled the North a woman travelling naked wouldn't be molested. Am I remembering this right?

Thanks for putting the timeline in perspective here, butterbumps.

That's right about the travelling naked part-- I think they said "a Stark" rather than Ned specifically, but I'd have to go look that up.

And np with the timeline! I normally end up actually skimming, if not reading through all those chapters, so sometimes it hold me up a little when I post a chapter, lol. Still, I'm finding it useful as an exercise-- I've never looked at everything combined like this before.

[bemused]

The Liddle took out a knife and whittled at a stick. “When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast. But the nights are colder now, and doors are closed. There’s squids in the wolfswood, and flayed men ride the kingsroad asking after strangers.”

Name-day gown could well be synonymous with "birthday suit" :D , but even if it's not naked, that's still pretty safe.

ETA: I like the way, even this early in the narrative , when Bran & co. shelter in the same cave with The Liddle , he mentions "flayed men" in the same breath with the invading "squids". The pairing suggests equivalency.

Early signs of the Northern attitude to Boltons , and perhaps knowledge of actual events beyond what should be possible at that point. ...?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Some very interesting points in the chapter analysis.

Davos’ earlier POVs would appear to confirm Jon and Cotter’s impressions, but I wonder: how much of this is from the bias of expectation?

Yes, IMO Jon is definitely biased with Cotter Pyke's impression (and it's really a pitty we don't have a glimpse into his letters). The thing is, though, that Selyse lives up to the expectations - and her retinue, even more. I agree that Selyse's conduct conceals a sad and insecure person, I would add bitter, too. But it is only expected that a person with such issues, who in addition bears a title of honour, would choose flatterers and yes men as her entourage. Axell Florent is a specimen of the kind. I can so see him mocking Selyse for her mustache and Shireen for her scars behind her back... In that sense, I believe him when he says "I’ll treat her [Val] with all the courtesy she is due”. He might, face to face. Empty courtesy, no respect. What he would say, think or plan to do about her is a totally different matter. What strikes me as idiotic, though, is that he seems to think that all men are just like him. No shame in expressing exactly what he thinks, no effort to even show a more courteous face at all.

Ser Patrek, "Another bloody southron fool": In this case, however, I think that southron is used as by Ygritte's perspective. Everything south of the Wall is southron.

“I had been given to understand that the Night’s Watch defended the realm against such monsters. No one mentioned keeping them as pets.”

Selyse and her knights are not unique in their prejudice, ignorance and concept on the purpose of the Watch. Men of the NW have the same attitude as well. It's Jon's wildling "education" that speaks here.

I think Selyse left Eastwatch because she just couldn't stand Cotter Pyke. As simple as that.

“We are done with Eastwatch. We did not like it there. A queen should be mistress beneath her own roof. We found your Cotter Pyke to be an uncouth and unpleasant man, quarrelsome and niggardly.”

I believe she really did want to go to Nightfort. Stannis claimed it for his seat, so she would trully be the lady of the castle there, and not just some guest who would have to respect her host. But as it wasn't ready (and propably, not safe for her to be there alone with only ~50 men) she stayed in Castle Black instead. I guess she also feels safer and more in power near Melisandre.
If only we had a POV at Eastwatch during Selyse and Pyke's cohabitation!


Is that whom I serve?

The NW serves the Realm. Once the Targs conquered Westeros, they equated the IT to the Realm. I think Jon is considering the possibility that the Realm and the IT may not be synonymous.

This is my view, too. After the Wot5K, everything is a lot more perplexed, even more than it was before I suppose. It seems as the unification of Westeros was forced, and that the centuries that passed were not enough to consolidate the idea of "One realm!". The feudal structure of Westeros society did not help either.
In contrast, Nestoris thinks of the Iron Throne as an institution, independent of who sits on it, as impersonal as a large business corporation (he is a banker, after all). To them, the king's debts are the IT's debts. Nestoris viewes Westeros government as a continuity, no matter the internal struggle, but Nestoris is from Braavos, a post-feudal state. Braavos seems to have progressed into a state of the more contemporary definition and it is reflected in Tycho's mindset.
By the way, he is dressed in dark purple. Dark makes him an aristocrat, no matter he denies the Lord title and purple is the "official" color of Braavos. Does this imply that the Iron Bank is something like the National Bank of Braavos, inextricably interrelated to the state?

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ETA:

One thing that I'm not sure of is who took out this loan. Is the loan in Jon's name or on the Watch's account? This distinction could become rather significant in the future.

I don't think the Iron Bank would care about the distinction. If the NW use (spend) the money of the loan, they will be expected to pay them back, no matter who is the LC then, if he agreed with the loan or not etc.

--------------------

Oh, the irony...

Wherever he might send her, though, Arya would need silver to support her, a roof above her head, someone to protect her. She was only a child.

Arya is actually in Braavos and has a roof above her head, education and a weird sort of protection. But she pays for it on her own and she pays the iron price (in the case of her transportation and initial admittance, quite literaly).

In a way, I think Alys showing up at Castle Black and wanting to Jon and not to Stannis is meant to show in what a strange situation the North is and what they think of the Southrons. Usually, someone like Alys would go to Winterfell. There, she would talk to the Stark in Winterfell who would settle things without the king on the IT ever hearing about it. Alys not going to Stannis reflects that, I think. The North as a whole is in a situation they have likely not have had in quite some time: There is no Stark in Winterfell. The family that has ruled the North for over 8000 years is all but extinct. But that doesn't mean that people have forgotten. The North remembers, is a phrase that's repeated quite often. Here Alys decides to go to the last Stark, even if his name is Snow and he has taken the black, over a king, because even though Thorren Stark bend the knee, the Starks never really stopped being kings of the North. Until Robb, they simply never wore the title again. What I'm trying to say is that Alys seems to react to the fact that there are no Starks in WF anymore rather pragmatic: There is a son of Eddard Stark left, he is in a position to help (LC of the NW), let's go there. It's never specified how the other Northerners think of this, but I don't think Alys would have gone to LC Mormont. The fact that Jon is Eddard Starks son is something that people very much remember

I agree. I suppose that the people in the north, commoners and noble, would never have to address the king of the IT about any matter. Even after the conquest, nothing really changed. This is, I think, also reflected in Lyanna Mormont's letter, "Bear Island knows no king...". It is not (or, not exclusively) a declaration of loyalty to the Starks, but expresses a certain mentality. It could read as "the Iron Throne is of no use to us. What we need is a king in the North like the Starks were" and later, Alysane Mormont's actions could be seen as an acknowledgement that Stannis, by fighting the ironborn, does what a Stark king, a king in the north, would do, that in a way he fills the vaccum. Alys, though, has no such evidence and she doesn't trust him.

There is also the fact that she knows that Stannis is marching into an ambush:

Lord Stannis is marching to a slaughter. So he cannot help me, and would not even if he could.

The bolded, however, implies that from Alys' POV, this "southron" king would not care. He's not "one of us" and "we" are not really his people.

[butterbumps!]

ETA:

I don't think the Iron Bank would care about the distinction. If the NW use (spend) the money of the loan, they will be expected to pay them back, no matter who is the LC then, if he agreed with the loan or not etc.

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I completely agree that from the IB's viewpoint, a distinction of this sort is probably unimportant as they'll get their due no matter what. I'm more curious whether from Jon's/ the Watch/ the wildlings/ the North's POV if a distinction could become important. If it's written in his name, then it might open the door for him to apply it a bit more loosely, to be used beyond Watch-centric issues. It would at least allow such an issue to become arguable in terms of jurisdiction in who and what might be covered under said loan (i.e. if in the future he feels the need to cover Northmen by this loan, for example, and he's no longer part of the Watch officially, he could make a better argument to do so in the event it's in his name). I guess what I'm really asking is whether there might have been some kind of loophole in this, not that he'd not have to pay, but in how he uses it, or even whether he'll be able to touch this money in the event he later leaves the Watch/ is no longer LC.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I completely agree that from the IB's viewpoint, a distinction of this sort is probably unimportant as they'll get their due no matter what. I'm more curious whether from Jon's/ the Watch/ the wildlings/ the North's POV if a distinction could become important. If it's written in his name, then it might open the door for him to apply it a bit more loosely, to be used beyond Watch-centric issues. It would at least allow such an issue to become arguable in terms of jurisdiction in who and what might be covered under said loan (i.e. if in the future he feels the need to cover Northmen by this loan, for example, and he's no longer part of the Watch officially, he could make a better argument to do so in the event it's in his name). I guess what I'm really asking is whether there might have been some kind of loophole in this, not that he'd not have to pay, but in how he uses it.

Could he, though? He doesn't have any personal income -his vows even forbid it- and as far as he knows, this is not likely to change. I mean, in the time he signed the loan he couldn't be in a position to see an alternative future for himself. It wouldn't make sense to be personally responsible for the loan. The IB would not lend him, personally, anything as he, personally, does not have any means to pay it back.

(He could re-negociate the terms if the situation changes, though).

[butterbumps!]

Could he, though? He doesn't have any personal income -his vows even forbid it- and as far as he knows, this is not likely to change. I mean, in the time he signed the loan he couldn't be in a position to see an alternative future for himself. It wouldn't make sense to be personally responsible for the loan. The IB would not lend him, personally, anything as he, personally, does not have any means to pay it back.

(He could re-negociate the terms if the situation changes, though).

Yea, I don't think he was contemplating an alternative future for himself until, at the very earliest, the end of this chapter when he realizes that he has no idea what he unleashed on the North wrt Mance and Mel, and Alys makes that kingly appeal. I don't think he'd have done this purposely as a strategic move necessarily; I was just curious if happened to be this way, and by extension, something he might be able to capitalize on in the future.

I guess a distinction could be entirely pointless, even if he signed it personally as the borrower rather than the Watch. If he leaves the Watch at some point, well, he's already breaking the law/ custom, so trying to appeal to some kind of legal distinction in order to commandeer the loan is probably beside the point at that juncture. I guess, if he's already oathbreaking, why not just go in full throttle and steal the loan at that point without legal veneer.

[Lummel]

When you say, Butterbumps, used a bit more loosely, then I don't think it makes any difference. Brought news of the girl having turned up, Jon is already thinking of sending 'Arya' to Braavos for safe keeping with a bag of silver. That can't be his personal silver, because he doesn't have any. If can only be Watch money he's thinking of using in that context.

[butterbumps!]

lol, yea, he was already planning to embezzle a bit in order to keep her out of the game. I was just curious about the extent to which he's going to have to steal the entire loan if he wants access to it in the future, and if he'd be able to spin his using the money as he sees fit as its being his loan rather than the Watch's. But such a scenario seems beside the point, because trying to justify something that would be more of a misdemeanor when you've just committed a felony is probably dumb anyway.

As a side note on that loan, I wish we knew what Jon tossed out in terms of a repayment plan. I don't think Jon's thought of this solution, but I do see a way the Watch could pay. Wood is incredibly scarce in Braavos, and very expensive. As it happens, the Watch is supposed to be clearing trees at least a mile off the Wall. That, to me, sounds like an answered prayer-- the Watch is extremely rich in what Braavos needs, not to mention any region poor in wood and/ or require a lot of wood for ship building.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

When you say, Butterbumps, used a bit more loosely, then I don't think it makes any difference. Brought news of the girl having turned up, Jon is already thinking of sending 'Arya' to Braavos for safe keeping with a bag of silver. That can't be his personal silver, because he doesn't have any. If can only be Watch money he's thinking of using in that context.

That's something I hadn't noticed and I think you're very right.

There would be no excuse for this one, IMO. This would be an abuse of authority and I think that GRRM is slowly and subtly initializing us to the danger of how someone who is, by all accounts, honorable and well intended, might fall into taking really wrong (both moraly and administrative) decisions without even realising it.

[The Sleeper]

@ Butterbumps

I don't see how the IB could possibly give Jin a personal loan. He doesn't have any assets, he has sworn not to have any assets. Second he did't borrow a specific amount of gold in hand but rather credit or financing and for a specifice reason: to feed the Watch through Winter.

Still, I'm concerned about Jon's thoughts that this was easier than it should have been. He's right, it is. The Watch gets its taxes in kind in taxes in kind and other than that has land, ruined castles and the Wall itself. What did they leverage the loan against. Does the IB hope to ceize the Gift? Do they want to privatize the Night's Watch and charge the seven kingdoms for protection. I had thought about the wood, but I'm not sure how viable it is to transport substancial quantities of wood with that technology.

Something, I've been meaning to mention for a while. Jon went to the top of the Wall to think earlier on in the novels and now that he is LC he tends to have important, decision making meetings there. One reason would be keep away prying eyes and ears, but it seems to be more than that. He tries to hold the meeting with Tycho on the Wall as well, but Tycho refuses. Do you think it might be significant.

ETA I would also like to point out that Alys Karstark appeals to him as kinsman and then as the last son of Eddard Stark, which is ironic as he is neither, and last in the name of his father. Which is somewhat ironic as well.

[Julia H.]

Thank you for the welcome.

That's something I hadn't noticed and I think you're very right.

There would be no excuse for this one, IMO. This would be an abuse of authority and I think that GRRM is slowly and subtly initializing us to the danger of how someone who is, by all accounts, honorable and well intended, might fall into taking really wrong (both moraly and administrative) decisions without even realising it.

“The things we love destroy us every time, lad. Remember that.” (Lord Mormont)

“We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.” (Maester Aemon)

Well, Jon has been warned...

It seems that the Arya-issue is the most difficult honour-test Jon has faced so far. He gave up the idea of avenging his father knowing he couldn't bring him back to life anyway. He also understood that Robb had thousands of soldiers – Robb didn't really need him. In the case of Ygrette, the moment of the final choice was so dramatic that there could not be any real question of what was morally right. But he thinks of Arya as a helpless little girl, whose plight cannot be overlooked by her only surviving family member. Stark-men have a tendency to sacrifice their own honour in the interests of the women they love. That's what Ned did for Lyanna and Robb for Jeyne, and now Jon is ready to do for Arya. Alys not being Arya has, for the moment, saved him from that.

Cotter Pyke... It's a pity we don't get to read his letters, but the mere image of the man spending long winter nights composing letters to Jon about the queen and her retinue is quite an amusing one. Does that mean he regards Jon as a - sort of - friend, someone he can bare his soul to? :laugh: After all, epistles of that kind don't strictly belong to his NW duties.

The way Jon accepts the responsibilities of a king is very typical of him, I think. To me, the fact that he doesn't move into the King's Tower is symbolic of the way he has always thought himself unworthy of any special honour or glory (except that of a simple ranger or a warrior). It was wrong of him to dream of Winterfell or of his father's sword, he never guessed Mormont would want to groom him for command, he didn't think he deserved to receive Longclaw, he was amazed when Donal Noye left him in charge of the Wall, and he laughed when he was nominated for LC. Yet, at the same time, he has always accepted the responsibility bestowed on him. He doesn't live in the King's Tower, but he does the duties of a king when those duties must be done. Though he reminds Alys that he is not the right person to turn to with such requests, he does not fail her.

Speaking of Jon as King... So far almost all the words of his vow have been tested on him - he has refused lands (Winterfell), a wife and the chance of a family, and he seeks no glory when he sacrifices his personal honour ("turncloak") in the service of the NW. He lives and he will “die” at his post. But there are also the words “I shall wear no crowns” - so should we expect that Jon will at some point refuse a crown in order to keep his vow? (Or are these words fulfilled by the fact that he does not move into the King's Tower?) What do you think?

[butterbumps!]

@ Butterbumps

I don't see how the IB could possibly give Jin a personal loan. He doesn't have any assets, he has sworn not to have any assets. Second he did't borrow a specific amount of gold in hand but rather credit or financing and for a specifice reason: to feed the Watch through Winter.

Still, I'm concerned about Jon's thoughts that this was easier than it should have been. He's right, it is. The Watch gets its taxes in kind in taxes in kind and other than that has land, ruined castles and the Wall itself. What did they leverage the loan against. Does the IB hope to ceize the Gift? Do they want to privatize the Night's Watch and charge the seven kingdoms for protection. I had thought about the wood, but I'm not sure how viable it is to transport substancial quantities of wood with that technology.

Yea, I was really only thinking about the extent to which the wording and signature on the loan could be spun by Jon in the future in the event he tries to seize the money for some broader purpose or something (definitely not in terms of how the IB itself would view who was responsible). But then I realized that an appeal to some kind of legal loophole like that by Jon would be fairly senseless if he's committing a much bigger crime that makes the issue of applying assets at his discretion even an issue in the first place.

And I agree about having discomfort with the relative ease of it. I really don't think he thought of the wood thing, and can't think of anything else that would be really lucrative to seize if repayment is a problem. The idea of taking Watch lands as a foothold makes some sense I suppose, but unless there's something more that we don't know about yet, I can't imagine what sort of influence they'd get out of the Gift; it's fertile land, but still-- would the crops from here really be satisfying for them? Or in terms of leverage, are they thinking that since the Watch serves the IT, that the ultimate responsibility of repayment comes the IT?

I think the idea they'd privatize the Watch and charge the realm for protection is really inspired. I kind of love this idea. But does Tycho understand that there really is an existential threat from the North? An IT that doesn't see the use of having a Watch to defend against grumkins, and therefore, no need to pay a lot of money to garrison one, is a risk in that idea. I guess I'm wondering that in the event this is what Tycho's thinking, why he'd think the IT would be inspired to pay larger sums of money for the Watch, given that Jon asked for the loan in the first place because the IT wasn't sending him money.

[Ragnorak]

The only reasonable answer is that Cotter Pyke told her :laugh: . Melisandre telling her is unreasonable, firstly because she has no access to ravenmail and secondly she doesn't give any appearance of being interested in Selyse anymore (assuming here that originally Melisandre got to Stannis through Selyse).

On the otherhand we know that Jon and Cotter Pyke have been in regular ravenmail contact and its a fair assumption that Jon would have told Cotter Pyke about the vision of an attack because you would, wouldn't you. From there it is either a case of Cotter discussing the news with Selyse or that the same rule applies at Eastwatch as at Castle Black that: "a village has no secrets, and no more did Castle Black" particularly since Pyke's mail has to be read to him. In anycase one could hardly keep news like that secret since it would require putting Eastwatch on some kind of alert.

I don't think that Melisandre sees any use in Selyse or her followers. We know from her POV what she is interested in - Jon. Melisandre in this chapter shows a distinct lack of interest to pander to Selyse who by contrast appears as the one who needs Melisandre and wants her support - as Butterbumps was saying Selyse is a rather sad and insecure person, Melisandre however is very confident in her abilities.

I have to admit the Cotter Pyke angle never occurred to me though I've had no end of amusement in trying to imagine how such a conversation might have gone. My favorite so far is a retort to some complaint about the shortcomings of the accommodations that goes something like "just wait until the attack comes..."

Still, I'm not so sure. Mel didn't give Jon a "when" so it isn't really actionable intel yet. There's also Jon's focus on Hardhome and if he truly believed an attack was coming I don't think he'd be ordering Cotter to lead the rescue leaving a lesser man in charge of Eastwatch's defense. He thinks of leading the rescue himself and it is Mormont's ranging that crosses his mind and not a potential attack on Eastwatch.

Does Mel have unrestricted access to ravenmail? I don't see her being stopped from sending messages. I imagine that Selyse would have been sending ravenmail to Mel (unless Mel has been sending her replies deliberately designed to discourage the practice.) So responses from Mel might be routine even if the correspondence ratio is far from one to one. I personally don't see any use in Selyse or her followers but I think Mel does. She is the one going everywhere with a tail and being obsessed with the trappings of power. A queen and another dozen or two knights fawning over her seems like something she would deem useful even if it in fact isn't. Mel's seeming lack of interest actually fits with her own POV's thoughts on the power inherent in who comes to whom. Mel waiting for Selyse to come to her is Mel's establishment of who really has power and by extension a queen coming to Mel is a public demonstration of that power-- even if it is delusionary because this is Selyse the Laughable.

The NW serves the Realm. Once the Targs conquered Westeros, they equated the IT to the Realm. I think Jon is considering the possibility that the Realm and the IT may not be synonymous.

I've always assumed that the Lord Commander of the NW is in fact considered the actual Lord of the territories under his control (Brandon's Gift and the New Gift) with the same rights and duties as any other major Lord. Not long ago, minor lords in holdfasts with attendant smallfolk in villages, like Queenscrown, occupied the Gift. These smallfok weren't members of the Watch. They were bound to the NW the same way smallfolk are bound to Lords throughout Westeros (the manor system). (It would be interesting to know if the holdfast at Queenscrown passed to a NW officer once the New Gift was added to the Watch, or if a non-Watch bannerman continued to hold it.) The LCotNW would have been their Lord. If some villager committed a serious crime, the LC presumably heard the case and passed judgement.

In other words, the NW serves the realm, and it subservient to the realm, not to Winterfell. The LC is a Lord on the same level in theory as the other Lords Paramount, although he has much less actual prestige. The Stark in Winterfell does not hold authority over NW lands. If a LC goes rogue, the Stark in Winterfell deals with it not in his capacity as Lord Paramount of the North (formerly King in the North) but as a representative of the entire realm (Warden of the North in the Targ era), simply because he is closest.

I think that the LC's power would extend to justice over crimes committed on his territories by anyone, not just his own bannermen. For example, if a cattle thief stole some livestock from the Umbers and fled onto NW land, it would be the duty of the NW to catch him and see that justice was rendered. (The NW would also collect all the fines for speeding on the Kingsroad in their jurisdiction.) This seems to be the authority Jon is using. Alys Karstark is the rightful regent of Karhold while Harrion is captive, by longstanding law. Arnolf and Cregan are breaking the law, and if Cregan ventures into NW territory, it is the LC's duty to deal with it, especially when the rightful Lady of Karhold requests action.

At least that's how I interpreted this.

I very much agree with this. I go a little further in that I think Aegon's Conquest changed the nature of the Watch considerably. When the Seven Kingdoms were seven separate kingdoms was the watch subservient to a king? I think the answer is "no" because there isn't a reasonable answer for "which king?" (The North has a special relationship with the Watch and part of that may be the North's involvement in its establishment, but there's also very pragmatic reasons of geography-- the North is the only kingdom the Watch can reasonable attack.) Harren the Black's brother isn't going to consider himself a subject of the Stark in Winterfell while his brother sits the Seastone Chair as a King. So the Watch wasn't subject to any king prior to the Conquest and I don't think this scenario Jon experiences could arise prior to the Conquest. If two Gardener Kings rose up neither of them was going to be offended if the LC of the Watch sends them both the same letter by raven. Neither would ever see the Watch as subjects who had to acknowledge a Gardner King. This dynamic only changes once the "realms" of men become the "realm" of men united under the Iron Throne. So on its face I think Jon's question of whether or not he serves the Iron Throne is one that's 300 years overdue.

Yea, this is pretty much what I'm really cautious about too. I don't know what to make of it yet, other than the possibility that these Southron fools are crafty in their own way and might be engaging in some aspect of conspiracy amongst themselves. Smart people are dangerous in the longer-term; they're smart enough to know that beating their enemies senseless at the first sign of perceived weakness might not ultimately work out, and to wait for the right conditions. Less smart people don't, though, and can be a lot more dangerous in the short term, even if it means they'll eventually fall for their stupidity (i.e. a lot of damage would already be done). Which is to say that I can see Selyse's party still being extremely dangerous to Jon and/or the Watch, even if she and the Queens Men are not the sharpest tools in the shed.

So dismissing them as inconvenient idiots might be a mistake. I mean, he might not be wrong to see them as idiots, but idiots can still be extremely dangerous.

I think some focus on Selyse and an ulterior motive is in order. I'm specifically remembering Tze's post in the Jon vs. Selyse on Hardhome chapter and how she read between the lines there to lay out Selyse's thinking and plotting.

On the Southron Fools front I'm wondering at a much higher level. Why is Martin taking this approach with such an extremely negative portrayal? He drops in plenty of clues that Bowen Marsh is an idiot-- like "hey let's leave the senile knight drooling in his oatmeal in charge because he's still a knight." Yet despite that his overall portrayal of Marsh is a sympathetic one. So why does Martin go so over the top with the negative portrayal of the Southron Fools here? What's the agenda? What effect is he trying to create?

We get the same thing in Asha's POV and to a lesser degree the same dynamic exists in the Davos scenes with Manderly. Manderly acts the Southron Fool while his granddaughter objects because of The Promise. It is similar to The Ned's girl exchange in Asha. We can trace this divide back to the opening chapters of the series with the First Men justice and Cat in the godswood. On one level the Southron Fools are consumed with concerns of power for its own sake while there is an issue of honor, justice or duty at play in those being contrasted. Cregan will fit right in with the Southron Fool portrayal when he shows up despite his latitude relative to the Neck. Martin uses the same technique (or at least a very similar one) with Dany in Meereen and Jon and Dany have fairly parallel arcs in DwD. The power for its own sake seems to apply in Dany as well. I think that's too simplistic an explanation but it does seem to be a consistent unifying thread. Is he playing us with this technique or is it more a story shaping tool? Mr. Grey is writing some awfully black and white portrayals here and it is setting off some alarm bells this time around.

[Ragnorak]

Thank you for the welcome.

“The things we love destroy us every time, lad. Remember that.” (Lord Mormont)

“We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.” (Maester Aemon)

Well, Jon has been warned...

It seems that the Arya-issue is the most difficult honour-test Jon has faced so far. He gave up the idea of avenging his father knowing he couldn't bring him back to life anyway. He also understood that Robb had thousands of soldiers – Robb didn't really need him. In the case of Ygrette, the moment of the final choice was so dramatic that there could not be any real question of what was morally right. But he thinks of Arya as a helpless little girl, whose plight cannot be overlooked by her only surviving family member. Stark-men have a tendency to sacrifice their own honour in the interests of the women they love. That's what Ned did for Lyanna and Robb for Jeyne, and now Jon is ready to do for Arya. Alys not being Arya has, for the moment, saved him from that.

Cotter Pyke... It's a pity we don't get to read his letters, but the mere image of the man spending long winter nights composing letters to Jon about the queen and her retinue is quite an amusing one. Does that mean he regards Jon as a - sort of - friend, someone he can bare his soul to? :laugh: After all, epistles of that kind don't strictly belong to his NW duties.

The way Jon accepts the responsibilities of a king is very typical of him, I think. To me, the fact that he doesn't move into the King's Tower is symbolic of the way he has always thought himself unworthy of any special honour or glory (except that of a simple ranger or a warrior). It was wrong of him to dream of Winterfell or of his father's sword, he never guessed Mormont would want to groom him for command, he didn't think he deserved to receive Longclaw, he was amazed when Donal Noye left him in charge of the Wall, and he laughed when he was nominated for LC. Yet, at the same time, he has always accepted the responsibility bestowed on him. He doesn't live in the King's Tower, but he does the duties of a king when those duties must be done. Though he reminds Alys that he is not the right person to turn to with such requests, he does not fail her.

Speaking of Jon as King... So far almost all the words of his vow have been tested on him - he has refused lands (Winterfell), a wife and the chance of a family, and he seeks no glory when he sacrifices his personal honour ("turncloak") in the service of the NW. He lives and he will “die” at his post. But there are also the words “I shall wear no crowns” - so should we expect that Jon will at some point refuse a crown in order to keep his vow? (Or are these words fulfilled by the fact that he does not move into the King's Tower?) What do you think?

I don't personally see Jon refusing a crown to keep his vows. I think keeping vows is not entirely a positive thing in this series. Jaime sees keeping his vows under Aerys as the thing that stained him and breaking his vows to save the city from wildfire as his redeeming act in the Kingsguard. His memories of guarding Aerys' door give credence to that view. The beating of Sansa in KL is knights "keeping their vows." I see Aemon's speech about the ravens and doves as a morality metaphor for this series. Being a raven, black and misunderstood, is in part about breaking your vows to make the choice you can live with for all the rest of your days as opposed to the path of the dove which seems like keeping your vows to please men like Baelor the Blessed. It is choosing a certain public disgrace for a moral cause. I would expect Jon to choose to break his vows because the outcome is worth more than one man's (his own) honor. We've already seen him break his word to Stannis in sending out Val because he felt the cause was morally just and not doing so morally unacceptable. I'd expect a similar dynamic with a crown.

Love is our great tragedy but also our great glory. I'm not sure that Jon's willingness to break vows for Arya falls on the tragic side of love. On that note I'm not sure that Jon's sending Arya out to be fostered in Braavos with coin from the Watch is embezzlement. As Lord Commander he has great discretion in such matters. If Alys asked to be sent to Braavos to be fostered instead of her actual request would Jon have done it? Would it have been embezzlement or within his discretion as a Lord? It is definitely a grey area but the written laws of Westeros are few and in general the lord of a given region is the law. The same act that might fly with Alys would certainly draw critics if it were done with Arya, but Jon has wide authority as LC. This isn't a government ministry or department with a 2,786 page ethics manual detailing to the penny when a gift becomes a felonious bribe or a formula for how much you're allowed to spend on wine given the ratio of government employees to official guests. House Stark and House Karstark have been considerably generous to the Watch in the past. A fostering in time of need seems quite reasonable in that context until family blurs the motivation.

Notes Regarding Braavos

For what its worth Jon is dressed in black which notes a high station in Braavos.

In the Seven Kingdoms nobles draped themselves in velvets, silks, and samites of a hundred hues whilst peasants and smallfolk wore raw wool and dull brown roughspun. In Braavos it was otherwise. The bravos swaggered about like peacocks, fingering their swords, whilst the mighty dressed in charcoal grey and purple, blues that were almost black and blacks as dark as a moonless night.

I don't think Tycho is unaware of the cultural difference but it is an interesting little tidbit all the same. Tycho himself is dressed in purple so his humility is born of manners and choice not from lack of status in Braavos it would seem.

There are also some connections between this chapter and Arya's Blind Girl that comes next. Arya hears talk of Jon in Braavos.

But they were all dead now, even Arya, everyone but her half-brother, Jon. Some nights she heard talk of him, in the taverns and brothels of the Ragman’s Harbor. The Black Bastard of the Wall, one man had called him.

Ragman's Harbor is where the Westerosi ships dock but it is still noteworthy that Jon stories rate as a topic of conversation given the War of the Five Kings, the Red Wedding, The Purple Wedding, the return of Euron and the death of Balon. If the stories were negative I think Arya would have had a reaction (and if they were really negative she'd have upped her body count.) Jon has a reputation in Braavos and if Tycho knows about ships in the Stepstones he's likely informed himself about Jon's reputation since he seems to have clearly prepared himself with intel for this trip.

The Wall is a refuge for Stannis and he'll need that if he's going to win the Iron Throne (which is Tycho's desired end state.) Jon opens with a request for the ships for the Hardhome rescue so he's apparently made his Wildling intentions known to our banker which makes the food situation and its implications known as well. So it is in the Iron Bank's interest to supply food to the only sure refuge Stannis has if starvation is likely to destroy it before Stannis can gain the throne. Still there is an interesting lending commentary from JP Morgan testifying in 1912 after the Panic of 1907:

I know lots of men, business men, too, who can borrow any amount, whose credit is unquestioned. Is that not so because it is believed that they have the money to back of them?

No, sir. It is because people believe in the man. I have known men to come into my office, and I have given them a check for a million dollars when I knew they had not a cent in the world.

Is not commercial credit based primarily on money or property?

The first thing is character, before money or property or anything else. A man I do not trust could not get money from me on all the bonds in Christendom.

There is also Jon's focus on Hardhome here and Arya hearing that the Goodheart was seized with slaves from Hardhome. Braavos does not jape about dragons but they seem to react even more poorly to slavery. The timeline seems to preclude Tycho from knowing about Hardhome before departing Braavos but I imagine that even if the Iron Bank ships are lost at Hardhome the fallout will not be negative given the Goodheart being seized in Braavos. In fact I would expect quite the opposite. The Iron Bank apparently paid Old Valyria for the value of the ships the Braavosi founders stole to escape but not the value of the slaves. I don't get the sense the Iron Bank would be as keen to collect a ship debt putting them in the role of Old Valyria-- but hey they're a bank and I could be wrong. The effect of Arya's POV containing references to Jon's previous chapter seems to be prepping us for a Braavosi involvement of some sort in the near future.

We did learn in Sam's POV that wood is extremely valuable in Braavos and wood is something the Watch has in extreme abundance. I would expect Braavos to set up a ship building operation to build ships to ferry wood to Braavos and crews from Braavos to sail the newly made ships loaded with wood. Jon noted that the forests have not been properly kept away from the Wall so that's a whole lot of lumber the Watch needs to cut down anyway. The Watch does have a way to pay back this loan if they have the manpower to cut trees come Spring.

The implications of Alys

Alys knows that Stannis is on his way to Winterfell so she must know he took Deepwood and is marching toward Winterfell. She knows her uncle is going to backstab Stannis which is... pretty damn good currency to hand Stannis if she's looking for protection and if she reaches him there's a good chance he won't be doomed by that ambush. Instead she decides to go to the guy where her first question needs to be "Is there a blood feud between us?" We see it with the Liddle Bran meets in the cave, we see it with Manderly, we see it with the mountain clans, we see it with the Mormont women, we see it with the Wildlings in the weirwood grove. I don't think the legacy The Ned left behind can be overstated here.

[SeanF]

Welcome to the reread Julia H. ! Don't worry, diving in like that is fine.

Yeah, I don't know on the question of food. In chapter IX Jon does reach towards a possible solution but we don't even know if it will work out - the loan agreement hasn't even reached Braavos by the end of ADWD so we are no where near the Night's Watch getting the cash or finding people who can and will sell them food

(while they do get a haul of tradable items from the wildlings in a few chapters time by the end of ADWD the watch won't have any ships to take them to foreign markets so we're back to where we started).

I don't blame Jon for this for for the decision he makes. Rather I think the situation is typical of his and Daenerys' arcs in ADWD. There are no ideal solutions available to them, most of the time they are trying to make a trade off between something very bad (vast numbers of wights north of the wall) and something slightly less bad (lots of their own people dying of starvation). Even the chance of better solution offered by the Iron Bank comes with its own risks - high repayment schedules, interest rate rises, the threat of the wall being repossessed by the Iron Bank and tugged off to Essos by Bailiffs to be sold off at auction if they can't meet

those repayments etc etc :laugh:

WRT the Iron Bank, my impression that one's own life is the collateral, when one gets a loan from them.

[Lummel]

lol, yea, he was already planning to embezzle a bit in order to keep her out of the game...

As a side note on that loan, I wish we knew what Jon tossed out in terms of a repayment plan. I don't think Jon's thought of this solution, but I do see a way the Watch could pay. Wood is incredibly scarce in Braavos, and very expensive. As it happens, the Watch is supposed to be clearing trees at least a mile off the Wall. That, to me, sounds like an answered prayer-- the Watch is extremely rich in what Braavos needs, not to mention any region poor in wood and/ or require a lot of wood for ship building.

That's something I hadn't noticed and I think you're very right.

There would be no excuse for this one, IMO. This would be an abuse of authority and I think that GRRM is slowly and subtly initializing us to the danger of how someone who is, by all accounts, honorable and well intended, might fall into taking really wrong (both moraly and administrative) decisions without even realising it.

@Butterbumps and Shadow Cat Rivers, I wasn't going to go as far as calling it embezzlement, I mean we don't know the limits of the Lord Commander's authority. The more the Lord Commander is a Great Lord, the more I imagine that he can do what he wants with his money and his watch. On the other hand the he's commander of the watch then the more that money and resources are the watch's property and what he is thinking is criminal. Practically though there don't seem to be any institutional restraints :dunno:

@Butterbumps, the thing about the wood though is that it would be pretty expensive to get it over land to Eastwatch. Because of the White Walkers and hostile wildlings any felled lumber has to be brought through the Wall - or over using the crane, then transported overland by ox cart. It's all labour and resource intensive. Though I agree it is the obvious and only (apart from ice) commercial resource they've got.

...Something, I've been meaning to mention for a while. Jon went to the top of the Wall to think earlier on in the novels and now that he is LC he tends to have important, decision making meetings there. One reason would be keep away prying eyes and ears, but it seems to be more than that. He tries to hold the meeting with Tycho on the Wall as well, but Tycho refuses. Do you think it might be significant.

ETA I would also like to point out that Alys Karstark appeals to him as kinsman and then as the last son of Eddard Stark, which is ironic as he is neither, and last in the name of his father. Which is somewhat ironic as well.

Well if L+R=J then Jon would still be the nephew of The Ned and no less or no more distant kin to the Karstarks.

About the Wall I agree that it is significant. I think there is an element of changing the perspective (its pretty much a bird's eye view from up there), as well as forcing the interlocutor to confront what is on the other side of the end of the world, that's going to frame any conversation in a different way.

Thank you for the welcome.

“The things we love destroy us every time, lad. Remember that.” (Lord Mormont)

“We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.” (Maester Aemon)

Well, Jon has been warned...

...

For me that is currently the central conflict in the series, the tension between the individual (love, personal fulfilment) and society (honour, social obligation). But as Ragnorak points out love isn't wrong (unless you think it is of course!). The problem is that those two forces are very powerful and can destroy a person and a kingdom when they are opposed to each other within the human heart.

Jon I see as moving eventually in favour of love at the end of ADWD, Jaime from ASOS towards honour.

I have to admit the Cotter Pyke angle never occurred to me though I've had no end of amusement in trying to imagine how such a conversation might have gone. My favorite so far is a retort to some complaint about the shortcomings of the accommodations that goes something like "just wait until the attack comes..."

Still, I'm not so sure. Mel didn't give Jon a "when" so it isn't really actionable intel yet. There's also Jon's focus on Hardhome and if he truly believed an attack was coming I don't think he'd be ordering Cotter to lead the rescue leaving a lesser man in charge of Eastwatch's defense. He thinks of leading the rescue himself and it is Mormont's ranging that crosses his mind and not a potential attack on Eastwatch.

Does Mel have unrestricted access to ravenmail? I don't see her being stopped from sending messages. I imagine that Selyse would have been sending ravenmail to Mel (unless Mel has been sending her replies deliberately designed to discourage the practice.) So responses from Mel might be routine even if the correspondence ratio is far from one to one. I personally don't see any use in Selyse or her followers but I think Mel does. She is the one going everywhere with a tail and being obsessed with the trappings of power. A queen and another dozen or two knights fawning over her seems like something she would deem useful even if it in fact isn't. Mel's seeming lack of interest actually fits with her own POV's thoughts on the power inherent in who comes to whom. Mel waiting for Selyse to come to her is Mel's establishment of who really has power and by extension a queen coming to Mel is a public demonstration of that power-- even if it is delusionary because this is Selyse the Laughable.

...

I think some focus on Selyse and an ulterior motive is in order. I'm specifically remembering Tze's post in the Jon vs. Selyse on Hardhome chapter and how she read between the lines there to lay out Selyse's thinking and plotting.

On the Southron Fools front I'm wondering at a much higher level. Why is Martin taking this approach with such an extremely negative portrayal? He drops in plenty of clues that Bowen Marsh is an idiot-- like "hey let's leave the senile knight drooling in his oatmeal in charge because he's still a knight." Yet despite that his overall portrayal of Marsh is a sympathetic one. So why does Martin go so over the top with the negative portrayal of the Southron Fools here? What's the agenda? What effect is he trying to create?...

On Southron Fools, at the moment I would caution against reading too much into this because essentially those around Selyse are the leftover dregs of the leftover dregs who escaped with Stannis from the defeat on the Blackwater. They are relatively low ranking people with poor social networks (otherwise they could have surrendered and been received back into the king's peace) and of those Stannis took the least worst down south with him.

We are then meeting these people from Jon POV, Jon is hardworking, conscientious and judgemental looking at a bunch of swaggering left behinds. Culture clash.

On Melisandre-Selyse. Well the text tells us that Jon and Cotter are in communication. Any connection between Melisandre and Selyse has to be assumed however, there's no evidence for it and the idea runs counter to what we see which is that Melisandre is uninterested in Selyse.

I don't see any reason for Jon to withhold the vision of an attack from Cotter, simply the rescue mission takes priority. Jon simply warning Cotter that Melisandre has foreseen an attack would be enough for word to get round eventually to Selyse even if he didn't take any active measures.

[bemused]

Tycho

Yes, that Tycho wears purple is a statement of status but it's the convention in Braavos , I'm not sure if it reflects position in a family of power of long standing.( And it may also be interesting to know if it makes a difference as to what profession wears purple , grey , dark blue, etc.)

But I'm very interested in the three-tiered hat, and wonder if it's symbolic of some special status as well ... I suppose, because I've come to think Bravos is ruled by a triumverate of Iron Bank , Faceless Men (HoB&W, who may have provided the initial funding to found the IB) , and the Sealord. Though Braavos is very different to Volantis ,they may still have the same basic idea on how to ensure that checks to power exist - to keep the state running on an even keel , preventing extreme adventurism.

So ,Tycho may not only represent the purely financial interests of the IB , but may also be trained in intelligence gathering techniques such as those taught in the HoB&W, and be very attuned to protecting the political, trade and military concerns of the office of the Sealord .( The office , not necessarily the current office holder ..especially as a change is immanent.)

I'd be very surprised if the IB ( and Braavos) still knew nothing about the North. Their ships must have been going to Eastwatch, I'd imagine , and at the very least , their interest would have been piqued when Ned became Robert's Hand. I'd also be very surprised if Braavos didn't have an "espionage" agent(s) in KL - apart from visits from the IB's rep. Leaving aside the whole circular argument about Syrio/Jaqen..(Let's..) - another idea that's been floated that I find very appealing is Tobho Mott as a sort of field bureau chief.

The man they wanted was all the way at the top of the hill, in a huge house of timber and plaster whose upper stories loomed over the narrow street. The double doors showed a hunting scene carved in ebony and weirwood. ( The huge house perhaps implies enough spare room for people to come and go )

He wore a black velvet coat with hammers embroidered on the sleeves in silver thread, Around his neck was a heavy silver chain and a sapphire as large as a pigeon’s egg. ... ( Sapphires = deception , anyone ?)

Tobho would be well placed , hob-nobbing with lords and the well-to-do.

Braavos /the IB would have been following the events of TWo5K, and Stannis' progress as best they could before deciding to approach him. I think they would have been aware of Jon's election , and interested in at least sizing him up. They might actually be more open-minded about the existence of magical beings, visions and prophecies than people in KL. And knowing their own history, they'd be open to recognising a person of vision who might be capable of finding a way out of a bad situation ( See the foundation of the HoB&W and the Moosnsingers leading their people to a place where they could safely establish their state.) Though the loan may be to the NW, I think it made a difference that it was Jon asking for it.

... It took the better part of an hour before the impossible became possible, and another hour before they could agree on terms.The flagon of mulled wine that Satin delivered helped them settle the more nettlesome points. By the time Jon Snow signed the parchment the Braavosi drew up, both of them were half-drunk and quite unhappy. Jon thought that a good sign.

I'd be willing to wager that part of what made the impossible possible was a detailed explanation of the existential threat that was looming. It must have had to include what Jon planned to do about it , beyond just waiting to be fed and probably beyond Hardhome...which means his plans must have held some merit for Tycho ( and if Tycho should have any experience in the lying game , that would be to Jon's good, as his sincerity and honesty would be apparent).

Jon read it over thrice. That was simple, he reflected. Simpler than I dared hope. Simpler than it should have been.

A long hard winter will leave the Watch so deep in debt that we will never climb out,

Jon reminded himself, but when the choice is debt or death, best borrow.

Tycho Nestoris had impressed him as cultured and courteous, but the Iron

Bank of Braavos had a fearsome reputation when collecting debts.

These three quotes again say to me that financial return was not the only consideration - in spite of the IB's reputation. Long term payment in the form of natural resources would not be sneezed at in resource-poor Braavos. ...We haven't seen the effects of a hard winter on Braavos.. but I wouldn't rule out an eventual forgiving of a portion of the debt if Jon's actions at the Wall/ in the North are seen to have been of service to Braavos, as well as to Westeros ( just a suspicion on my part).

Another "unknown" that could come into play is - what have the Moonsingers been doing all this time ? It seems they must have used visions to find the location for Braavos. It's a long way from Valyria. One wouldn't think they'd just stop having them , once that was done. Visions are often related to prophecy ... does Braavos have any prophecies of it's own ?

There could be some very important bits of information missing about Braavos that will explain a lot about the loan , beyond just knowing the agreed details.

Selyse and the Dangerous Jackanapes ( my favourite new band, put together by Butterbumps) ;)

Not only is Selyse insecure , but she's seized on Stannis' sense of entitlement to desperately try to fulfil her own. Not only does Stannis not deign to warm her bed , he doesn't treat her with much respect , and is grudging in what liberties he allows her. However , if it's a liberty that Mel has taken first , Stannis will tolerate it (barely)...

The ruby at Melisandre’s throat caught the light as she turned her head, and for an instant it seemed to glow bright as the comet. “If you will speak such folly, Maester, you ought to wear your crown again.” ( She had previously set Patches' helm on Cressen's head )

“Yes,” Lady Selyse agreed. “Patches’s helm. It suits you well, old man. Put it on again, I command you.” ....

.... Lord Stannis’s eyes were shadowed beneath his heavy brow, his mouth tight as his jaw worked silently. He always ground his teeth when he was angry. “Fool,” he growled at last, “my lady wife commands. Give Cressen your helm.” ( Selyse turns Mel's suggestion - that on it's own could have been let pass - into her own command . Stannis is angry, yet if Stannis reprimanded her , he'd be reprimanding Mel by extension. Hence the tooth grinding. )

.. but if Selyse goes a step beyond Mel , he won't hesitate to chastise her in front of his court , calling her not "queen" or "my lady wife" or even by name , but merely "woman" , when he feels she's gone too far..

“Perhaps he ought sing his counsel henceforth,” Lady Selyse said.

“You go too far, woman,” Lord Stannis said. “He is an old man, and he’s served me well.”

Selyse is too stupid to know when she's treading too close to the line, but clever enough to seize the opportunity to change residence and arrange marriages in his absence ... and to presume to know his mind and make threats in his name. ( I don't really think Mel wanted her at CB, but she thinks she can control her ,so I don't think she cares , much)

Selyse's Jackanapes are even more stupid for not seeing through Selyse , or for thinking they're smart enough to take advantage of her stupidity. I mean , riding Stannis' coat tail is one thing , but to be pulled behind in a little red wagon by Selyse ( who might decide to let go while she plucks her moustache ) is really dim.

I too feel robbed by not having had a fuller description of Selyse's adventures with Cotter Pyke. I'm sure neither one could wait to get away from the other. ... Selyse may know about Mel's "towers" vision generally , and have decided that any towers by the sea are not the place to be. We don't know how long Mel's been having the vision, perhaps since before coming to CB . But it seems she only risks making a firm ID when Jon puts her on the spot.

Side Note :

When Cressen is attempting to poison Mel , we're given this exchange ...

Davos clutched at him as he left the bench, catching his sleeve with the fingers that Lord Stannis had shortened. “What are you doing?” he whispered.

“A thing that must be done,” Maester Cressen answered, “for the sake of the realm, and the soul of my lord.”

I'm not sure that Cressen won't be proved right , in the long run... even though his attempt would have been premature , considering the situation at the Wall... But remembering the quote always makes me uneasy , when readers seem to be clamouring for Mel to "resurrect" Jon , or get close to him in any way.

Jon the Thief

According to Ygritte..

And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. “Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”

“I never meant to steal you,” he said. ...

... “If you kill a man, and never meant’, he’s just as dead,”

I definitely think Jon stole Val , by wildling reasoning. In spite of this passage in ASoS....

As he walked toward the armory, Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I’m sorry, he thought. I’m not the man to steal you out of there. ( "there" = The King's Tower, and I read "I'm sorry" as much for himself as for her.)

But that's exactly what he does.. just snatches her out of there ( gives her freedom and hope).. . and never puts her back where he found her. ( He then absconds with the baby as well , at her request - or , if you like, demand. )

Val and Jon can even be seen as the two planets. If Jon is the Thief , Val can be seen as the Moonmaid - she uses the moon to set the time of her return... We first see the playful , flirtatious , maiden-like side of her nature by moonlight. ( And relating to my own thoughts about Val.. the - apparently - visionary Moonsingers of Braavos seem to me likely to have grown up out of the beliefs and practices of wildling slaves in Valyria)

I've been pecking away at this offline all day, and I haven't even come to Alys.. Now I have to go back and see what I've missed.

ETA; One thing I noticed above quickly ..I think if they'd extend credit to the watch, because of Jon and his plans , they'd extend credit to him personally as well, or maybe to a new Stark in WF. :D

[The Sleeper]

@ Lummel

I guess my point was that Alys is pulling all the stops. Understandably, she is desperate as she is in a pretty tigh spot. She begins her appeal by invoking their kinship, sayin that her house and his are bound in blood and honor, explains the situation saying her ultimate resort is a son of a Eddard and when Jon twice refers her to Stannis, she dismisses him twice first saying that she never recognized him and then saying that he's as good as dead anyway and wouldn't count on him anyway. She finishes by beseeching him for protection in the name of his father. This tells quite a lot. For one it shows that Stannis means nothing to the Northmen, as the one house who declared for him was usurped and did so only to betray him. She also treats him as if he wasn't a bastard or a sworn brother of the Night's Watch. Of course we should keep in mind that she considers him to be her last chance. She also twice invokes the legacy of the Starks.

It is noteworthy that all the things she appealed to things that Jon as a bastard were never his officially and was supposed to forsake when he took his vows. And she is unequivocally asking him to overstep his boundaries as LC. Why does Jon comply? For one thing she appeals to him as family, she evokes memories of his childhood Sansa shared past. More importantly I think, is that he went looking for Arya to help her in a time of need and found a girl who shares Arya's coloring and build and who might have been Arya appealing to him for help in her time of need. Lastly her appeal to Ned's legacy steps right on his perennial desire to be counted as a Stark. The legacy is something Jon himself frequently invokes during his stint as LC , particularly when he wants to reinforce his authority.