Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 5! (DwD)

[Mithras]

Garnets lack the fire, so Longclaw should not be the fiery sword of Jon. I have a theory that Oathkeeper will be Jon's ultimate sword because it has both Ice and fire.

[Lummel]

The "crystalline showers of ice" put me in mind of the later snow shower and "I will dance with you anon". Each seems to be a key to some deeper level of memory or consciousness. Here triggering, the really quite a breakthrough, idea of building greenhouses to grow vegetables through the colder months.

I note in passing Jon's insistence on saying Hardin's Tower and not Harlot's tower "Jon was not about to condone the mockery". There is a desire for precision of language, of language as part of a broader battle - in this case about the role of women as brothers in the watch - also again this is true to the theme of honesty and clarity in this chapter in opposition to the deception and fuzziness of the previous chapter.

There's a feeling of beauty in the descriptions of light on the wintry scene. The Wall reflecting the blue sky, the sun through the leaves staining the snow pink. Something churchlike perhaps? Alternatively is there something sinister to this in the mutability of supposedly known things that can suddenly appear to be or are revealed to be very different than first thought?

Back to the question of time. Rhllorism is the religion of being scared of the dark ("for the nights are dark and full of terror"), but the Night's Watch is all about fraternity as a means of withstanding what the night might bring. The swearing of the oath provides a means for the watchman to gain self-confidence. At first there is "a nervous squeak" but then "it seemed to Jon as though their voices were changing, growing stronger, more certain". Is Rhllorism essentially a childlike view of the universe and does that blinker the outlook and thinking of its adherents? Does it deny full adulthood to the faithful? The swearing of the oath on this occasion takes place in the dark, in a doubly dangerous place - white walkers and the men of the weeper could be out there, surrounding them in the darkness, but they are not overcome by fear.

Seeing as we haven't discussed it yet - what about Stannis' letter? Can we take it at face value? Given how keen he was to report that the Karstarks had joined him but didn't want word to get out that others had refused him, is this letter too suspiciously positive? Interesting how he mentions the Mormonts considering how angry he was over the earlier letter from the Mormonts and what we see of Stannis' attitude towards women in the Asha chapters. Here he is surprisingly complementary. In contrast to what we were saying previously about Jon wanting to remove Arya as a piece from this vicious gameboard, Stannis wants to keep her on it "I will save your sister if I can, and find a better match for her than Ramsey Snow" - note that there is no suggestion here of consulting with Jon let alone Arya ("Arya" of course) over the choice of the 'better match'!

[Lummel]

...Jon seems to see Ghost as a sort of mobile weirwood heart tree that is with him always. His connection to Ghost seems to be strengthening, even though he is not actively warging. But for all the references to the old gods, Jon never feels that he gets any answers or input from them about what to do. It's more about identity. Old gods, Ghost, Ned, family, Winterfell - all one package deal wrapped up together in his mind...

Just some rambles here. Still, the lesson Jon should learn here is that something interesting happens every time he visits the grove. Maybe he should go there more often.

Yes this is interesting, does Jon actually listen the least to the old gods? Bran is taught by Osha that the wind rustling through the leaves is the old gods talking to him, Arya gets a mysterious message while by the Harrenhall weirwood, but Jon despite his prayers and despite his repeated realisation (at least three times, maybe four) that Ghost's eyes are like the eyes carved out on weirwoods doesn't seem to have been open to any message from the old gods unless it is delivered in blatant Lassie style - ie Ghost digging up the dragonglass cache for him!

...Rubies are mostly associated with Rhaegar, Melisandre and Lannisters. Fiery red.

Ghost's red, the Weirwood red, like garnet has a deep and dark hue. Blood red.

Isn't the dried weirwood sap described as being the colour of blood?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Yes this is interesting, does Jon actually listen the least to the old gods? Bran is taught by Osha that the wind rustling through the leaves is the old gods talking to him, Arya gets a mysterious message while by the Harrenhall weirwood, but Jon despite his prayers and despite his repeated realisation (at least three times, maybe four) that Ghost's eyes are like the eyes carved out on weirwoods doesn't seem to have been open to any message from the old gods unless it is delivered in blatant Lassie style - ie Ghost digging up the dragonglass cache for him!

I don't think Jon has reached a settled conclusion as to whether any gods exist at all. He's a bit of a skeptic. His attachment to the Old Gods would seem to be a cultural identity thing - like a casual, non-practicing Catholic who goes to Mass on Christmas Eve because that's what the family always did. Then again, he claims to be able to feel the "power" of the heart tree at Whitetree village. He seems to gloss over the fact that he had a warging experience with Ghost where a weirwood resembling Bran talked to him.

Jon is still only 16. He hasn't made up his mind about a lot of things just yet.

I really, really like Shadowcat River's contrast between fire red and blood red.

[Ragnorak]

A short but noteworthy line:

“Aye.” Leathers hesitated. “M’lord.”

The Free Folk don't use titles like "Lord" and those who fashion such titles for themselves, like the Lord of Bones, find themselves with somewhat mocking nicknames like Rattleshirt. Jon sparing the Wildlings in the grove (and likely sparing Leathers the same dilemma Jon had when he rode with the Wildlings in Clash) clearly has an impact on Leathers. Jon's refusal to demand that they kneel seems to have provoked a sort of reciprocal compromise where the Wildlings are willing to adopt the non-kneeling respectful usage of "Lord." Val will call Jon "Lord" next chapter as well. The word choice is the fruit of Jon's alternative to the Stannis approach.

Arya was always quick and clever, but in the end she’s just a little girl, and Roose Bolton is not the sort who would be careless with a prize of such great worth.

There's a lot of Harrenhal irony in Jon's musings on Roose having Arya. Roose did in fact have Arya and was careless with such a prize. The quick and clever "just a little girl" Arya did in fact escape from Roose Bolton just like Jon is musing about here when she was exactly the little girl Jon is remembering. The irony keeps flowing when we think of Arya as the ninja death machine magical assassin of doom that she's becoming.

Seeing as we haven't discussed it yet - what about Stannis' letter? Can we take it at face value? Given how keen he was to report that the Karstarks had joined him but didn't want word to get out that others had refused him, is this letter too suspiciously positive? Interesting how he mentions the Mormonts considering how angry he was over the earlier letter from the Mormonts and what we see of Stannis' attitude towards women in the Asha chapters. Here he is surprisingly complementary. In contrast to what we were saying previously about Jon wanting to remove Arya as a piece from this vicious gameboard, Stannis wants to keep her on it "I will save your sister if I can, and find a better match for her than Ramsey Snow" - note that there is no suggestion here of consulting with Jon let alone Arya ("Arya" of course) over the choice of the 'better match'!

The Stannis Letter

One curious item is "the rest I mean to hang" simply because it isn't "I mean to burn."

For some background we have Davos II when he first arrives in White Harbor and is gathering news:

The Ryswells and the Dustins had surprised the ironmen on the Fever River and put their longships to the torch. That was worse. And now the Bastard of Bolton was riding south with Hother Umber to join them for an attack on Moat Cailin. “The Whoresbane his own self,” claimed a riverman who’d just brought a load of hides and timber down the White Knife, “with three hundred spear-men and a hundred archers. Some Hornwood men have joined them, and Cerwyns too.” That was worst of all.

This is the Northern motion before Stannis heeds Jon's advice and marches on Deepwood. Here's the letter:

Stannis had taken Deepwood Motte, and the mountain clans had joined him. Flint, Norrey, Wull, Liddle, all.

And we had other help, unexpected but most welcome, from a daughter of Bear Island. Alysane Mormont, whose men name her the She-Bear, hid fighters inside a gaggle of fishing sloops and took the ironmen unawares where they lay off the strand. Greyjoy’s longships are burned or taken, her crews slain or surrendered. The captains, knights, notable warriors, and others of high birth we shall ransom or make other use of, the rest I mean to hang …

… more northmen coming in as word spreads of our victory. Fisherfolk, freeriders, hillmen, crofters from the deep of the wolfswood and villagers who fled their homes along the stony shore to escape the ironmen, survivors from the battle outside the gates of Winterfell, men once sworn to the Hornwoods, the Cerwyns, and the Tallharts. We are five thousand strong as I write, our numbers swelling every day. And word has come to us that Roose Bolton moves toward Winterfell with all his power, there to wed his bastard to your half sister. He must not be allowed to restore the castle to its former strength. We march against him. Arnolf Karstark and Mors Umber will join us. I will save your sister if I can, and find a better match for her than Ramsay Snow. You and your brothers must hold the Wall until I can return.

It was signed, in a different hand,
Done in the Light of Lord, under the sign and seal of Stannis of House Baratheon, the First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm.

Ramsay's Moat Cailin force was to be joined by Ryswells, Dustins, Cerwyns, and Hornwoods. Post-Deepwood we see Cerwyns and Hornwoods joining Stannis over the earlier choice to join Bolton. Notably absent are the Ryswells and Dustins but we see Tallharts and Mormonts joining Stannis who were absent from the rumors Davos heard.

The survivors of the Battle of Winterfell is a curious point. We explicitly get Ramsay's treachery leaking from Wex which seems to give it the quality of still being a secret known only to Manderly and Glover. Survivors from the battle means that the treachery is known and will spread to those travelling with Stannis-- which includes "fisherfolk, freeriders, hillmen, crofters" as well as all of the mountain clans and several northern Houses. We can infer that by TWoW that it will be closer to common knowledge than any kind of secret.

The smallfolk flocking to Stannis really speaks to the "true king" concept we've often talked about and we see that mirrored in Jon's oath epiphany about the realms of men. The long list of just who the King is King of also speaks to Jon's choice to integrate the Wildlings-- First Men, Andals, Rhoynar did not become one easily or peacefully. This may well be the first time anyone claiming the title Protector of the Realm actually protects it. These smallfolk joining Stannis is a huge contrast to the ones in the south we see hiding from would be kings or joining the BwB to attack would be kings.

[Lummel]

It seems to me quite probable that Cerwyn and Hornwood men are joining both the Boltons and Stannis. If there is no effective leadership then every household is going to be making its own decisions.

It is problematic to my mind because this is Stannis writing about his own adventures and the implication is that these people are joining someone who they view as the true king etc etc. But we know that the point of Jon's strategy was that Stannis should appear as the enemy of the Ironborn and we know from the Asha chapters that the motivation for the clansmen is the chance to rescue the Ned's little girl (and have a fight). In which case the motivation for those flocking to his banner isn't a belief that he is a true king but simply a potentially temporary shared purpose - Stannis, however, even if he could see it that way certainly wouldn't put that down on paper for Jon to read!

[Ragnorak]

A political calculation among the nobles is likely. It was the smallfolk coming to Stannis that struck me as related to the "true king" motif. Also to your point, Stannis expressed a need for "a victory" to bring people to his cause. Jon expressed a need to attack the Ironborn to be seen as protecting the North. Those smallfolk would not be flocking to a Stannis if he had attacked Bolton. These are "villagers who fled their homes along the stony shore to escape the ironmen." In the south for their counterparts there was no king to flee to who was actually protecting them or taking the fight to their attackers. Thus we get the BwB claiming to be fighting for a "true king" of sorts (even if their role model was lacking.) Everyone there was the enemy of the smallfolk which is what the situation would have been had Stannis been waging war against the Boltons. I don't think these smallfolk believe or even care whether Stannis is King or not. Perhaps a distinction between "true king" and "rightful king" would add clarity?

[Lummel]

I don't know. I suppose I'm hesitant about assigning motivation to people whose actions we only know about through Stannis' words given how particular (or biased) his viewpoint is.

Again exposure to Stannis fandom has soured my views on Stannis and inclines me to be more and more critical of him rather than feeling pity for this classic middle-child :laugh:

If he's acting the King and people are responding to him as king then we could use the term "true king", however Stannis' pretensions are towards being "rightful king" and only one person in the north so far has explicitly rejected his claim. Apparently everybody else in the north is more interested in issues that are sub-kingship. So I'm not sure if there is in this case any particular advantage to be gained in the precise term used. Maybe the question in the background to be addressed is what does Jon think? Is Stannis a rightful king, or a true king type?

I suppose for Jon to accept Stannis as rightful king then he'd have to accept that Tommen Beathater is not the true born son of Bob Baratheon, and I don't think he had done this - unless I've forgotten some mention of this. On the other hand Jon seems happy to accept Stannis' authority as if he was the king - although he was outnumbered and didn't have much choice in the matter...

[Mithras]

Some Hornwood men can be expected to join Stannis after seeing the fate of Lady Hornwood.

What is interesting in the letter of Stannis is that how did the word (that Roose is moving to Winterfell for the wedding) come to them while they were in liberated Deepwood.

[Ragnorak]

Lummel, you heathen, the Stannis fans will burn you for this. Do you perchance have royal blood? We really need a flaming emoticon.

I understand your point. I'm was more focused on the "true king" concept and less on Stannis as the occupier of that role (I largely suspect that the Mountain Clans followed Stannis because Jon sent them which makes Stannis more a vassal of Jon's and not a King at all in their eyes... I guess I'll be burning with you.) If Sandor acts like a "true knight" in Sansa's view his universal rejection of all things "Ser" wouldn't trouble me a bit. The "true" concept is about fulfilling the duties and ideals of the title regardless of whether you hold the office. That the smallfolk seek out a noble faction to defend their homes instead of hiding from every faction like we see in the south seemed noteworthy.

Some Hornwood men can be expected to join Stannis after seeing the fate of Lady Hornwood.

What is interesting in the letter of Stannis is that how did the word (that Roose is moving to Winterfell for the wedding) come to them while they were in liberated Deepwood.

Yes, good point on the Hornwood men.

I'm not sure how Stannis hears about the wedding. The specific manner that the news reaches him would be telling but since Roose raven spammed the North with the news and demands of attendance I'm not bothered by it in terms of something secret being revealed to Stannis.

[Ragnorak]

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
--John Stuart Mill

Jon VIII (ADwD)

Summary

The chapter opens in the predawn at the other side of the Wall as Jon is sending Val to look for Tormund in a scene that shows Jon acting on his weirwood grove epiphany from the previous chapter. Jon and Val have a little bit of flirtatious banter that drops a few clues before she departs. Jon has concerns that he keeps private, Mully has concerns that he voices, and Edd is dour as usual. Soon after Edd brings Jon breakfast Marsh, Yarwyck, and a recently awakened Septon Cellador show up with what Jon assumes is to address the situation with Val. Jon immediately raises the issue of Val to which Marsh adds "other matters." These "other matters" consist entirely of Jon's personnel assignments with the exception of his decision to stick the two potential wight corpses under guard in an ice cell. Jon again brings up Val, who seems to be essentially a surrogate for the issue of whether or not to let the Wildlings through the Wall. Marsh firmly believes they should be left to die. Jon's thoughts are of a humanitarian nature but his words are strictly tactical-- every dead Wildling is a wight that will march on the Wall. The chapter ends with Jon dismissing them with palpable tension in the air.

Observations

Val waited by the gate in the predawn cold, wrapped up in a bearskin cloak so large it might well have fit Sam.

This blends the symbolism of Sam giving his cloak to Gilly with Benjen's giving the bearskin to Tyrion.

You will return. For the boy, if for no other reason.”
“Craster’s son?” Val shrugged. “He is no kin to me.”

Val clearly knows about the baby swap and their talk of whether or not Mel knows has a tone that could indicate she's known all along. This stands in contrast to Mel's POV where the baby is asserted as leverage over Mance. Neither party has any illusions or deceptions at play in this exchange. The baby is spoken of as a thing of value to Val (she sings to him) and not as a hostage threatened with harm to ensure her return. It is Jon himself that will be beheaded should Val fail to heed her word.

The missions here are also contrasted. Jon is willingly breaking his word to Stannis (though not one spoken before a tree) after much internal debate. Jon made an assessment and chose to trust Val. Mel's offer was designed to avoid Jon having to confront the dilemma of willing breaking his word or oath to the Watch for Arya. The difference here is that Jon is completely comfortable with the risk of sending Val and his worries are mostly centered on the risk of her failing. With Mance Jon is plagued by trust in his intentions and whether or not he's keeping his word.

“Hard bread, hard cheese, oat cakes, salt cod, salt beef, salt mutton, and a skin of sweet wine to rinse all that salt out of my mouth. I will not die of hunger.”

Echoes of Val the pillar of salt.

And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.

We had Mel's POV and at the time she didn't seem to know. It would be a little cheap to have Mel specifically tell Jon he has leverage but not have her think to herself that she knows Jon knows his leverage is fake. Still it is illuminating about Val's assessment of Mel particularly in the "why" discussion that follows. A fickle creature of fate like fire or sorcery. Not in lockstep with Stannis, an agenda of her own, and like Jon she believes the woman has power but does not trust her.

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.

“I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath.

Jon's brief glimpse of dragons compared to Aemon's description of the Targaryen dragon dreams that have haunted his House.

Did Jon "steal" Val? The Learning to Lead post. The Thread.

Which men? Jon might have asked. How many? But that would lead him down a road he did not mean to ride. “I am sorry to hear that. Is there more?”

“Free,” the raven muttered. “Corn. King.”

More John Barleycorn with the "Corn King" reference. The legend: here or here or here for the musically inclined.

Lummel's chapter post for Jon VIII in Learning to Lead

Analysis

This is the turning point chapter in Jon's Dance with Dragons arc. Earlier Winterfellian noted that the snowflake blowing in the wind contrasted with Jon in a cage evoked the sense of Jon trapped by circumstances and external events that he accepted instead of trying to reach out and control by grabbing the snowflake. This seems to be the point where Jon decides on a course and begins to try and exert a measure of control over the circumstances of the Nights Watch. It isn't the first step he's taken in this regard. His plan to Stannis in exchange for the Wildlings qualifies, but that was a reactionary choice to circumstances presented to him and not a proactive choice like we see here with Val.

We don't really see any interaction between Val and Jon post their exchange in Mance's tent back in Storm of Swords but clearly there's been a good bit of off page dealings to get to this point. Again we have Jon defying Stannis for moral reasons at risk to his own life sending someone away on a predawn journey. The cloak comparison and the baby swap coming up seem designed to evoke the parallel.

“Do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely?” the king had said, and Jon had promised that he would. Val is no princess, though. I told him that half a hundred times. It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man’s honor.

The baby swap with Gilly clearly has parallels to Ned's actions surrounding Lyanna and Jon. If one entertains the idea that "Jon stole Val" and considers Jon's stabbing outside Val's tower at the end of the book, this line about Ned's approval becomes takes on more context. It is possible we're getting some Tower of Joy clues here. What is clear is that whether or not Ned approved (I suspect he would have), Ned made the same choices regarding his own honor when weighed against the realm of a very singular child named Jon. There may be no blood involved here, but this is definitely a choice to not have clean hands. Jon is owning responsibility for this now and understands the choice may get him killed. His plan should Stannis find out is to present him with a feeble evasion that at best offers our letter of the law would-be-king with a bigger army than Jon an out for having to execute Jon that he doesn't seem to expect Stannis to make use of. There is a rather powerful underlying morality and convictions aspect to this chapter.

In light of that I think it is interesting that this chapter follows our Watcher's POV where Doran poses his own moral dilemma.

“Until the Mountain crushed my brother’s skull, no Dornishmen had died in this War of the Five Kings,” the prince murmured softly, as Hotah pulled a blanket over him. “Tell me, Captain, is that my shame or my glory?”
“That is not for me to say, my prince.” Serve. Protect. Obey. Simple vows for simple men.

The chapter is followed by Tyrion riding a pig in a joust to avoid death at the hands of angry and superstitious sailors. This is all the more significant a choice given that at the Purple Wedding participating in this very same joust seemed to be a thing he was willing to risk death to avoid.

What is worth dying for? seems to be a bit of an underlying theme.

Which brings us to Bowen Marsh and company for whom very little if anything seems worth dying for.

I think Mully is the one that goes to Marsh. Jon seems to trust him as he's one of the Watch that helped fight of the Wildling assault and someone Marsh didn't see fit to bring with him when he went chasing Mance's feints. There are things like Ghost's hostility later to hint at Mully but his line about "the men" seems to be the giveaway given Marsh's complaint tactic.

Mully cleared his throat. “M’lord? The wildling princess, letting her go, the men may say—”

The Septon is clearly unprepared so is either a follower of Marsh in this or perhaps just more pious toward Dionysus than the Seven. In many ways he's an outright insulting figure to bring to confront Jon. This is the guy that said Jon's religion proved him a traitor and wanted it used as evidence to execute him before Aemon intervened. Jon is the guy that just marched off to a weirwood grove because the Sept isn't an acceptable alternative for old god believers-- which Jon is and has always been. So the drunkard who wanted Jon dead is supposed to help exactly how? Clearly Marsh thinks he has the gods on his side and stopped thinking after that or maybe just stopped counting gods when he reached Seven.).

I think the most striking thing about Bowen's complaints is that he phrases them as "the men" and refuses to own them as his own. This is all the more transparent since his complaints center on "staffing" which isn't something "the men" ever have any say in anyway. The only time Marsh owns a criticism is when he says, "if their gods send ships to carry them off to a better world, well and good. In this world I have no food to feed them.” The Septon uses a similar tactic when he says he'll pray to The Crone to shine the lantern of wisdom on Jon-- as if Jon is disagreeing with The Crone and not the useless hung over sot in front of him. They try and leave their objections attached to external things outside of themselves in an attempt to insulate them the normal scrutiny applied to things counselors present to their lord.

The first issue Bowen raises is the reassignment of Iron Emmett and Edd to Longbarrow (which is in fact effecting the removal of the Wildling women and thus addressing one of Bowen's earlier complaints.) The objection is not to them as leaders of Longbarrow but to their replacements Leathers (a Wildling) and Satin (a former whore.) If Marsh knows they're going to Longbarrow and wants them to stay in their current positions why does he not have either A.) alternate candidates to lead at Longbarrow or B.) alternate candidates for master-at-arms and steward to offer Jon? He basically is taking it upon himself to try and veto Jon's candidates as Jon's subordinate but he literally has not a single candidate to offer as an alternative. I find it difficult to find anything remotely redeeming in Marsh's perspective if he and Jon were equals. Given that Jon is his commanding officer I find it impossible.

Again, who in the hell cares what the men think about these two positions. They don't get a say and never did in the 8,000 year history of the organization. Did the men like Thorne as master-at-arms? Did Bowen give a Grumpkin fart then? Complaints about merit or ability might matter but those are the very things these counselors refuse to put forth by hiding behind "the men" and the very things their offices oblige them to actually present to Jon. Marsh doesn't even bother to parrot his "high ground" advice to Jon; it is all complaints. "The men" don't like Satin and Jon's response is "The other recruits started out despising him, but he won them over and made friends of them all."-- in other words the men actually do like Satin. What Jon does is spell out his command expectations and concerns culminating with the nexus between dead Wildlings and the size of the undead army that will eventually fall upon them. I see no compromise or token gesture for Jon to offer here given the stances that these men have chosen to take. They are refusing to recognize fellow Watchman as brothers and failing to acknowledge that by becoming Watchmen they get a clean starting slate. (Should Jon follow their same reasoning and weigh the Septon's recent personal past?) Nothing about that position ought to be compromised with.

I think the "Corn King" reference, combined with "Corn, Corn, Kill" clues us in that this is the point that the Ides of Marsh conspiracy starts or at least transforms from grumbling to plotting.

And these three men made a solemn vow,
John Barleycorn should die.

--The Ballad of John Barleycorn

Here we have three men who may well be making a solemn vow to kill Jon after this meeting. There's also Jon mentioning the possibility of his own death at the hands of Stannis and then drinking ale.

“Why, then, you may have a chance to choose a lord commander more to your liking. Until such time, I fear you’ll still need to suffer me.” Jon took a swallow of ale.

Ale is one of the bounties of the John Barleycorn harvest.

Even assuming this meeting sparks the Ides of Marsh conspiracy I can't see what Jon ought to have done differently other than replace these men or put others over them. If he had suitable leaders to do so he'd be sending them to one of the reopened forts.

Parting note: I was exceedingly harsh on Bowen Marsh and company. Generally in a chapter post I'd prefer to present a milder or more balanced take, but I just can't find it in me to rationalize the opposition here. If you see it differently feel free to disagree-- that's what rereads are for.

[Old Ida]

Thank you once and again Ragnorak and co. for your great work.

I quote this from your post Ragnorak:

"Again, who in the hell cares what the men think about these two positions. They don't get a say and never did in the 8,000 year history of the organization. Did the men like Thorne as master-at-arms? Did Bowen give a Grumpkin fart then? Complaints about merit or ability might matter but those are the very things these counselors refuse to put forth by hiding behind "the men" and the very things their offices oblige them to actually present to Jon. Marsh doesn't even bother to parrot his "high ground" advice to Jon; it is all complaints. "The men" don't like Satin and Jon's response is "The other recruits started out despising him, but he won them over and made friends of them all."-- in other words the men actually do like Satin. What Jon does is spell out his command expectations and concerns culminating with the nexus between dead Wildlings and the size of the undead army that will eventually fall upon them. I see no compromise or token gesture for Jon to offer here given the stances that these men have chosen to take. They are refusing to recognize fellow Watchman as brothers and failing to acknowledge that by becoming Watchmen they get a clean starting slate. (Should Jon follow their same reasoning and weigh the Septon's recent personal past?) Nothing about that position ought to be compromised with."

Jon came just like Satin and "made friends of them all" Since then it is like, as some cancer has taken over the Wathcmen, is it enough to think that is Thorne and Bowen and the bad influence they spread out? Or is it some magic from Mel or someone else who has this effect?

It seems so unlike the Night Watch suddenly to talk about the past of their members and let it matter to them? I just do not get it.

And the blindness to the danger of all the Wildings outside if they become a wights is unbeliveble of Bowen. He started like a responsible

fellow but in the last chapters it is like he don´t give a darn about the his wows and the realm. I have a feeling we still do not know "the why?"

[Fire Eater]

Excellent chapter analysis, Ragnorak.

I have always thought Mully was spying on Jon for Marsh for all the reasons stated above, plus Mully is a steward, the stewards being Marsh's base. He is the only person other than Dolorous Edd named when Jon sends Val off.

[giants] who devoured whole bulls, hair and hide and horns.

I think Tyrion, who is referred to as a giant, will be the undoing of Victarion, who is described as a bull.

Septon Cellador

Septon Cellador pursed his lips. "Salvation can be found only through the Seven"

"You're going to hell you Old Gods worshiper."

Septon Cellador appeared confused and groggy and in dire need of some scales from the dragon that flamed him

He got flamed by Jon. Other than that, it's a shame they don't have AA meetings in Westeros. Cellador was drunk even at the Battle of the Wall. Marsh talks about qualified men, and he brings the drunk septon to support him.

I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man’s honor.

This is Jon's underlying philosophy. It is pragmatic and altruistic at the same time in sacrificing one's personal honor for the greater good.

Marsh

As for qualifying people for positions, Marsh is the last person who should be criticizing Jon over candidates given that Marsh named Ser Wynton Stout head of CB in ASoS when Mance Rayder attacked just for being the only knight left at CB, ignoring the man's senility such as almost drowning in his soup.

"Please sit," he [Jon] said. "May I offer you food or drink?"

"We broke our fast in the commons," Marsh said.

One thing to note is that Marsh doesn't accept any food or drink from Jon, an early sign of separating himself from Jon.

Bowen Marsh did not appear surprised."You mean to let him pass." His voice suggested he had known all along.

Marsh has likely been thinking about what Jon will do, and likely planning about how to deal with that.

They have a hungry look to them.

Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look.

Julius Caesar Act I, Scene 2

Jon will get caesared. I think Ghost, who will carry Jon's spirit, will haunt Marsh and CO like Caesar's ghost haunted Brutus.

Val

"And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things' in her fires"
Arya, he thought hoping it was so. "Ashes and cinders."
"Kings and dragons."

I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.

Val's interpretation of what Mel sees in her flames seems to be accurate given Jon fits both descriptions.

Val is an interesting character here. She seems to know that Melisandre knows about the baby swap, and she seems to know what Mel sees in her flames. She also knows where to find Tormund. No one told her those things, so could she have some magical abilities of her own? She does remind me a bit of the GoHH, knowing things she couldn't possibly know. Could she have green dreams and/or be a woodswitch/priestess?

As for her salt references, AA will be reborn form smoke and salt; Val may likely be present at Jon's resurrection when he wakes up.

Beside her was a garron, saddled and bridled, a shaggy grey with one white eye.

From TWoW Theon:

He had been seated on a garron, clad in the pelt of a gigantic snow bear, its head his hood. Under it he wore a stained white leather eye patch

A little hint to Val's heritage, the grey half-blind Mors Umber being her grandfather.

[bemused]

A-a-arr-r-gh! Wait , back up a bit ... I was just putting a few things together about Stannis' letter , this morning before I had to go out , so if I may ..

Ragnorak .. I've always loved that bit of irony about Arya escaping from Roose at Harrenhall. I assume she and Jon will meet at some point , and he'll be blown away. And it would be sweet if Roose came to know he let her slip through his fingers..before he meets some suitable end. :D

As to Stannis' letter...There are a number of ways Stannis could have gotten the news about Winterfell, but I find it hard to believe that those Hornwood and Cerwyn and Tallhart men , the survivors of the battle outside WF, have just been aimlessly sitting or wandering about until Stannis appeared. Jonelle Cerwyn has still been there. Would they not have contacted her, or other northern houses in the interim ? The Hornwood men cannot have had the same aversion to Manderly that they have for Ramsay or Roose. ... I think the Tallharts and Glovers would naturally have gravitated to other northern houses as well , not necessarily to be absorbed, but at least to be in contact.. With whatever Manderly's up to ( some form of GNC ) , I have to think that many of those joining Stannis have been sent.

Stannis saying "the rest I mean to hang" shows that his own men are easily outnumbered within his army. I'm sure at least the Queen's men with him would already be clamouring for the captives to be burnt , yet no sacrifice is made until they have men who have done something most of the men would consider outside moral behaviour , and something that he doesn't want to become appealing to starving troops. It's in the interest of maintaining discipline as much as a sacrifice to R'hllor.

I agree that while I doubt the northmen would see Stannis as a true king, I think they'd see him as closer to true than Tommen the puppet ( poor kid).. and yes , probably because he appears to be accepted as an ally by Jon.

It's amusing to me that Stannis refused to use spearwives , refuses Asha's offer to fight for him, but will accept Alysanne because she sank the ironborn ships and brings men with her . He coldly lets Jon know he'll save "Arya" if he can, but then he'll marry her off ( his right as king) to someone he considers more suitable.

On to Jon VIII.. Great job as usual ! (I might have to split some of this up.)

Val -

The light of the half-moon turned Val’s honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath.

“The air tastes sweet.”

“My tongue is too numb to tell. All I can taste is cold.”

“Cold?” Val laughed lightly. “No. When it is cold it will hurt to breathe. When the Others

come …”

( This quote has always caused me to have doubts about the nature of the Night's King's bride.. maybe she's just been drawn bad )

“The air tastes sweet.”.. may show that Val senses no immediate presence of Others or wights. ( or just tastes of the freedom and hope that she thanks Jon for.)

The bear skin cloak also fits with the Mors Umber connection Fire Eater makes, and I could see her as an Umber grand daughter.

“Craster’s son?” Val shrugged. “He is no kin to me.”

“I have heard you singing to him.”

“I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens?” A faint smile brushed her lips. “It makes

him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster.”

If GRRM was indeed inspired by the Norse Vala when creating Dalla and Val , Val may be telling part of the truth when she says she was singing to herself.. as with the Vala , there could be specific songs sung in invocation to the gods when seeking a vision.

“The horse may be half-blind, but I am not,” said Val. “I know where I must go.” Another way of saying she can see , and perhaps that she can "see" in the prophetic sense.

"She knows who he is." ... I'm just going to blurt this out ( I'm in the process of pulling it together for my Tormund and Val thread that Fire Eater linked to, but I'm really busy right now ) Here goes : I think there's room for doubt that those babies were actually switched. If they were ,Val would have known, since Mance's son was kept with her . Gilly couldn't have done it without Val knowing, and if anyone besides Gilly could tell them apart, it would be Val. ...I have many clues and exercises in logic gathered up to this effect , but I won't develop them all here... I'm still a bit on the fence with it myself , but I'm just pointing out that if this should be the case , both Val and Mel could be truthful in what they say. Jon himself stressed to Gilly that Craster's son would have no particular value to Mel... so why would Val say.. "And keep him away from the red woman." , if Mel knows he's Craster's son ?...If Mel knows it's Mance's son , and if Dalla and Val were not biological sisters , but sister-practitioners, then even Mance's son is no kin to Val. ( Giving him "monster" for a milk name fits with Val's playfulness.)

I do think Jon has stolen Val , as far as a woman of her status can be stolen. She's not a spearwife, and she's very beautiful , but seems completely unconcerned about the possibility of being stolen.

Jon must have spoken with Val quite a bit and he must have spoken to Mance before he left, both could have said things that led Jon to entrust the mission to Val .. without revealing any religious/magical abilities she may have ( to protect her from Mel ).

Bowen / John Barleycorn

Fire Eater has semi-ninjad me on this , but I was going to say a bit more about eating or drinking with perceived enemies... Here's Davos with Manderly :

“There is wine, if you have a thirst.”

“I will treat with you, my lord. My king commanded that of me. I do not have to drink with you.”

and Jon to Mance as Rattleshirt in Mel's chamber :

“I’ll not break bread with you.”

Now from this chapter, 1) in Jon's solar :

“Please sit,” he (Jon) said. “May I offer you food or drink?”

“We broke our fast in the commons,” said Marsh. “I could do with more.” Yarwyck eased himself down onto a chair. “Good of you to offer.”

“Perhaps some wine?” said Septon Cellador. “Corn,” screamed the raven from the lintel. “Corn,

corn.”

I'm looking ahead for the other two examples I want to point out.. 2) before admitting Tormund's people :

He broke his fast in the cellar with his officers. Fried bread, fried eggs, blood sausages, and barley porridge made up the meal, washed down with thin yellow beer. As they ate they went over the preparations yet again. “All is in readiness,” Bowen Marsh assured him. ( in the cellar = in the commons)

and 3) in Jon's solar again :

Marsh listened attentively, ignoring the mulled wine, whilst Yarwyck drank one cup and then another.

John Barleycorn is present in our chapter, and in the second quote ( for later) ..and this could be the moment plotting took off in earnest , or just the moment Bowen was completely won over ( to Thorne's intentions) ... but I don't think these are the 3 men.. or not all of them.. Bowen is.. he won't partake of Jon's personal hospitalty implying enmity. He may eat with Jon in 2) ... though it's not specifically mentioned ..but in that case , they're in the cellar , not in Jon's personal domain , he's not accepting something from Jon's hand.

I don't think Othell represents one of the 3 men .He partakes heartily on both occasions in the solar ( Good of you to offer). Though he's terribly superstitious, I don't think he actually bears Jon real ill will . (See election). So when the plan turns seriously to the possibility of blood , I don't think he'll be kept in the loop.

Cellador is such a pathetic sot, he'll take wine from anyone, even someone he thinks deserves execution or is godless ( such a moral cleric) .. He could be one of the 3 men , except I think anyone would consider him pretty useless to their plan. ( OTOH, Bowen could keep the wine flowing, and who knows what he'd do ..)

I think Thorne is definitely one of the 3 men ,but is not there in person.

I agree Mully is in deep..but maybe he's a replacement 3rd man after Jon dealt with Slynt? .. He has access to Jon's solar , when Jon isn't there .. is in a position to overhear much of what Jon dicusses there with others (Tycho) .. there's ghost's reaction to him , later...etc....( I'm betting he's literate.)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91691-mulling-over-mully-is-he-sharpening-a-knife/?hl=%2Bmulling+%2Bover+%2Bmully

I want to say more ( about this chapter ;) ) but my eyes are closing...

[Mithras]

Good work Ragnorak, Fire Eater and bemused.

Septon Cellador appeared confused and groggy and in dire need of some scales from the dragon that flamed him

He got flamed by Jon.

“Come, drink with me,” the fat man said. “A scale from the dragon that burned you, as they say.” He poured for them from a flagon of blackberry wine so sweet that it drew more flies than honey.

Ser Eustace Osgrey supported the Black Dragon. The rebellion failed and Osgrey's three sons were killed at the Battle of the Redgrass Field. Eustace was forgiven by King Daeron II Targaryen, but his daughter Alysanne was taken as a hostage. His wife committed suicide after the loss of all their children. This made Eustace the last of his line. His sons are buried under blackberry trees. Thus, the blackberries are associated with the Black Dragon.

Above passage shows that Illyrio is the Black Dragon that flamed Tyrion.

The Lord of the Flies

I find the mention of flies in the quote above curious. Anyone can think of a reference to the Lord of the Flies?

Sebastien Michaelis associated Beelzebub with the deadly sin of pride. However, according to Peter Binsfeld, Beelzebub was the demon of gluttony, one of the other seven deadly sins, whereas Francis Barrett asserted that Beelzebub was the prince of false gods.

Illyrio fits the profile for the demon of gluttony and also the prince of false gods by his association with the false dragon. It is highly probable that there has been six Blackfyre Rebellions in the past and this last one will be the seventh and final. If we think of Illyrio (the prince of gluttony) as the chief of this last campaign, I wonder if we can associate other Blackfyre Rebellions with the other deadly sins. For example, was the prevailing deadly sin in the First Blackfyre Rebellion the pride of Daemon? And the second one, can we describe it as sloth?

In 1589, Peter Binsfeld paired each of the deadly sins with a demon, who tempted people by means of the associated sin. According to Binsfeld's classification of demons, the pairings are as follows:

Lucifer: pride (superbia)

Mammon: greed (avaritia)

Asmodeus: lust (luxuria)

Leviathan: envy (invidia)

Beelzebub: gluttony (gula or gullia)

Aamon or Satan: wrath (ira)

Belphegor: sloth (acedia)

Above is the list of Binsfield.

The serpentine steps

The road beneath the Wall was as dark and cold as the belly of an ice dragon and as twisty as a serpent.

This serpent-like road beneath the Wall reminds me of the serpentine steps in the Red Keep. It is an important place that keeps appearing.

He had run her halfway across the castle; twice around the Tower of the Hand, across the inner bailey, through the stables, down the serpentine steps, past the small kitchen and the pig yard and the barracks of the gold cloaks, along the base of the river wall and up more steps and back and forth over Traitor’s Walk, and then down again and through a gate and around a well and in and out of strange buildings until Arya didn’t know where she was.

She would need to go down the serpentine steps, past the small kitchen and the pig yard, that was how she’d gone last time, chasing the black tomcat… only that would take her right past the barracks of the gold cloaks. She couldn’t go that way. Arya tried to think of another way.

Arya chased the Balerion the Cat throughout the Red Keep including the serpentine steps.

The noise receded as she moved deeper into the castle, never daring to look back for fear that Joffrey might be watching… or worse, following. The serpentine steps twisted ahead, striped by bars of flickering light from the narrow windows above. Sansa was panting by the time she reached the top. She ran down a shadowy colonnade and pressed herself against a wall to catch her breath. When something brushed against her leg, she almost jumped out of her skin, but it was only a cat, a ragged black tom with a chewed-off ear. The creature spit at her and leapt away.

Sansa encounters Balerion the Cat at the serpentine steps too.

She was racing headlong down the serpentine steps when a man lurched out of a hidden doorway. Sansa caromed into him and lost her balance. Iron fingers caught her by the wrist before she could fall, and a deep voice rasped at her. “It’s a long roll down the serpentine, little bird. Want to kill us both?” His laughter was rough as a saw on stone. “Maybe you do.”

This times Sansa encounters the Hound.

They continued down the serpentine and across a small sunken courtyard. Ser Dontos shoved open a heavy door and lit a taper. They were inside a long gallery. Along the walls stood empty suits of armor, dark and dusty, their helms crested with rows of scales that continued down their backs. As they hurried past, the taper’s light made the shadows of each scale stretch and twist. The hollow knights are turning into dragons, she thought.

“I have found no trace of Lady Sansa in King’s Landing, sad to say. Nor of Ser Dontos Hollard, who by rights should have turned up somewhere drunk by now. They were seen together on the serpentine steps the night she vanished. After that, nothing. There was much confusion that night. My little birds are silent.”

Dontos leads Sansa through the serpentine steps. They pass through the barracks of the gold cloaks. The empty suits of armors of the gold cloaks are turning into dragons. I think these are gold dragons of LF.

In short, Stark sisters are associated with a one-eyed cat with a chewed-off ear, a “dog” half of whose face is burned and a man who is half knight and half fool and did all the planning of Sansa's escape in the godswood. The presence of the one-eyed Bloodraven is felt everywhere including the horse of Val through these dichotomies between halves.

The baby switch

I know this might be a stretch but does anyone think that there is a possibility that the baby switch never took place? As I posted here, there seems to be a change in the baby we know as the Monster.

“You will return. For the boy, if for no other reason.”

“Craster’s son?” Val shrugged. “He is no kin to me.”

“I have heard you singing to him.”

“I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens?” A faint smile brushed her lips. “It makes him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster.”

“Monster?”

“His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother’s sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.”

Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.”

“Kings and dragons.”

This passage makes sense if we read it like the baby is Dalla’s boy. The king is the boy and the dragon is the one Mel wants to awaken by burning the king.

“I am sending Gilly south on the next ship out of Eastwatch.”

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck. “Gilly is giving suck to Dalla’s son as well as her own. It seems cruel of you to part our little prince from his milk brother, my lord.”

How Mel touches her ruby in this dialogue makes me think that she was aware of the baby switch plan. Val claimed that she did not do anything because it suited her. What if she really did something or saw that Val would do something?

The Others

When they emerged north of the Wall, through a thick door made of freshly hewn green wood, the wildling princess paused for a moment to gaze out across the snow-covered field where King Stannis had won his battle. Beyond, the haunted forest waited, dark and silent. The light of the half-moon turned Val’s honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath. “The air tastes sweet.”

“My tongue is too numb to tell. All I can taste is cold.”

“Cold?” Val laughed lightly. “No. When it is cold it will hurt to breathe. When the Others come …”

The thought was a disquieting one. Six of the rangers Jon had sent out were still missing.

Tormund,” Jon said, as they watched four old women pull a cartful of children toward the gate, “tell me of our foe. I would know all there is to know of the Others.”

The wildling rubbed his mouth. “Not here,” he mumbled, “not this side o’ your Wall.” The old man glanced uneasily toward the trees in their white mantles.

Val is the one who mentions the Others near the Haunted Forest. Later, we will see that Tormund was reluctant to talk about them at the same place. Is this important?

[AnotherCrannogman]

I am kind of new, so please be kind. I am interested in your expert opinions on the question:

Did Jon kill Ygritte?

I find the statements ambiguous and since we see almost everyhting from Jon's POV he could simply be convincing himself that he did not, even if he did. It was not his arrow in her chest, but he fired other's arrows in the battle.

Sorry if this has been discussed, I tried to search the otehr re-read strings and did not find it if it was.

Thanks again.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

“Do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely?” the king had said, and Jon had promised that he would. Val is no princess, though. I told him that half a hundred times. It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man’s honor.

Jon's word to Stannis, which parallels

Eddard's word to Robert, which paralles

Rhaegar's word to Aerys???

It's always interesting to read any reference Jon makes about "his father", in those exact words, in two ways - as referring to both Ned and Rhaegar. Is this a clue that Aerys forced Rhaegar to swear some sort of oath to him (presumably about not rebelling against him) that Rhaegar later rather seriously bent? We know Rhaegar told Jaime as he left for the Trident that he was planning to "make some changes" when he returned.

This chapter always seems to inspire the Jon+Val shippers, but I'm not buying it.

"He may not heed your words, but he will hear them." Val kissed him lightly on the cheek. "You have my thanks, Lord Snow. For the half-blind horse, the salt cod, the free air. For hope."

Their breath mingled, a white mist in the air. Jon Snow drew back and said, 'The only thanks i want is --"

"-- Tormund Giantsbane. Aye." ...

"This is farewell, then," she said, almost playfully.

Jon Snow was in no mood for it. It is too cold and dark to play, and the hour is too late..

Val may be flirting here, but Jon isn't. A quick look at the chapters in aSoS when he's with Ygritte shows that he thinks of himself as "Jon" when he's with her. But here, he's very much "Jon Snow". This will occur again.

[Lummel]

I am kind of new, so please be kind. I am interested in your expert opinions on the question:

Did Jon kill Ygritte?

I find the statements ambiguous and since we see almost everyhting from Jon's POV he could simply be convincing himself that he did not, even if he did. It was not his arrow in her chest, but he fired other's arrows in the battle.

Sorry if this has been discussed, I tried to search the otehr re-read strings and did not find it if it was.

Thanks again.

We discussed that chapter starting from here. You can look at it as being ambiguous - I mean he would want to deny killing her, however that means thinking that in his POV when he tells us that his fingers froze that he is lying to himself - what evidence do we have that he lies to himself or that he is so unreliable a narrator that he can't be trusted here?

Plainly POV characters can be unreliable in that they are mistaken, don't know things that we know, have a limited viewpoint, lack self-knowledge, but wrong over a matter of fact is more difficult to prove in a case like this were we only have the one POV.

In this case I don't feel that it matters if he personally killed her or not. Their romance can only last if either he becomes a Wildling, or if she becomes a kneeler (and then there would be the matter of his oath), or if the two of them escape to Braavos. Since they are both swept up and pushed on over the Wall then a point when the two would be in opposition and in conflict with each other becomes inevitable. If his arrow, or another's would it matter? They are doomed to love and enmity all the same. :crying:

[AnotherCrannogman]

We discussed that chapter starting from here. You can look at it as being ambiguous - I mean he would want to deny killing her, however that means thinking that in his POV when he tells us that his fingers froze that he is lying to himself - what evidence do we have that he lies to himself or that he is so unreliable a narrator that he can't be trusted here?

Plainly POV characters can be unreliable in that they are mistaken, don't know things that we know, have a limited viewpoint, lack self-knowledge, but wrong over a matter of fact is more difficult to prove in a case like this were we only have the one POV.

In this case I don't feel that it matters if he personally killed her or not. Their romance can only last if either he becomes a Wildling, or if she becomes a kneeler (and then there would be the matter of his oath), or if the two of them escape to Braavos. Since they are both swept up and pushed on over the Wall then a point when the two would be in opposition and in conflict with each other becomes inevitable. If his arrow, or another's would it matter? They are doomed to love and enmity all the same. :crying:

Thanks for the response and detailed discussion here and in the other threads. Very interesting.

As for Jon's POV, self denial would be strongest for something like this and denying your involvement in the one you love's death would be the normal human reaction, while denying your fingers froze would go against "the average" reaction. Thus, Jon denying killing Ygritte internally would be normal. Thus, I do not count his internal dialogue either way really.

There is really not a large amount of textual context either way, but Jon's knowledge that he killed her even if he denies it could lead to a darker Jon and self hate.

It matters for that reason, and that if he did kill her directly it makes her death and his life even sadder at this point. a very GRRM outcome.

[Lykos]

Good work Ragnorak, Fire Eater and bemused.

“Come, drink with me,” the fat man said. “A scale from the dragon that burned you, as they say.” He poured for them from a flagon of blackberry wine so sweet that it drew more flies than honey.

Ser Eustace Osgrey supported the Black Dragon. The rebellion failed and Osgrey's three sons were killed at the Battle of the Redgrass Field. Eustace was forgiven by King Daeron II Targaryen, but his daughter Alysanne was taken as a hostage. His wife committed suicide after the loss of all their children. This made Eustace the last of his line. His sons are buried under blackberry trees. Thus, the blackberries are associated with the Black Dragon.

Above passage shows that Illyrio is the Black Dragon that flamed Tyrion.

The Lord of the Flies

I find the mention of flies in the quote above curious. Anyone can think of a reference to the Lord of the Flies?

<snip>

I think "The Lord of the Flies" is very interesting to compare to the situation at the Wall. Civilisation falling Ralph and Piggy seem to be used in Jon´s and Sam´s characters but mixed up a bit. Btw. Ralph comes from Rad-ulf, counsel-wolf, a name for a strong counsellor. The role of civilisation and societal organisation are strong motifs in both stories.

“A scale from the dragon that burned you" is Martin´s version of the hair of the dog, it discribes curing the symptomes of overindulgence by carrying on to indulge. Making it a metaphor for decadence, while the origin of the expression is the principle of "a small dose of the poison can cure", which brings us to the topic of balance. You have to drink of the cup of fire and of the cup of ice. The problem is, to figure out how much of each.