Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 5! (DwD)

[Lummel]

...It matters for that reason, and that if he did kill her directly it makes her death and his life even sadder at this point. a very GRRM outcome.

He's already pretty depressed in ADWD - how much bleaker do you want things to be for him? :laugh:

...What is worth dying for? seems to be a bit of an underlying theme.

Which brings us to Bowen Marsh and company for whom very little if anything seems worth dying for.

... They try and leave their objections attached to external things outside of themselves in an attempt to insulate them the normal scrutiny applied to things counselors present to their lord...

Parting note: I was exceedingly harsh on Bowen Marsh and company. Generally in a chapter post I'd prefer to present a milder or more balanced take, but I just can't find it in me to rationalize the opposition here. If you see it differently feel free to disagree-- that's what rereads are for.

...And the blindness to the danger of all the Wildings outside if they become a wights is unbeliveble of Bowen. He started like a responsible

fellow but in the last chapters it is like he don´t give a darn about the his wows and the realm. I have a feeling we still do not know "the why?"

Perhaps oddly I can see where Marsh and Co are coming from here. This goes back to something I think Shadow Cat Rivers (iirc) mentioned previously. Those three have a comfortable life up there on the Wall and they want it to stay that way. Everything they say is about avoiding change. Jon however is not just telling them that things have to change - he is taking active steps to change things, however for them he is a Cassandra, they can't, or don't want to share his sense of danger. They have insulated themselves completely and have their heads in the sand.

Of course they don't want a wildling as master of arms - they want somebody like themselves, ditto Satin as steward. They want to see the perpetuation of the old, familiar, safe order of things. Bringing the Wildlings through in numbers threatens change - and worse - work! If in Sam I AFFC we saw the builders being worked harder than ever before then that is the fate that awaits all of the officers of the watch. Marsh will have to feed the five thousand with five fish and three loaves, there will be no escape from longer, harder, duties. No more easy days, sitting by the fire, drinking mulled wine, enjoying lobsters, surrounded by the company of the decent sort of men who respect the social superiority of good ol' boys like Marsh and Cellar Door. INstead they are going to have to deal socially as equals with the kinds of persons they patronised down in Moles Town and **horrors** wildlings and there won't be enough wine to round everyone ! :laugh:

[Ragnorak]

I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man’s honor.

This is Jon's underlying philosophy. It is pragmatic and altruistic at the same time in sacrificing one's personal honor for the greater good.

Marsh

As for qualifying people for positions, Marsh is the last person who should be criticizing Jon over candidates given that Marsh named Ser Wynton Stout head of CB in ASoS when Mance Rayder attacked just for being the only knight left at CB, ignoring the man's senility such as almost drowning in his soup.

"Please sit," he [Jon] said. "May I offer you food or drink?"

"We broke our fast in the commons," Marsh said.

One thing to note is that Marsh doesn't accept any food or drink from Jon. An early sign of separating himself from Jon.

Bowen Marsh did not appear surprised."You mean to let him pass." His voice suggested he had known all along.

Marsh has likely been thinking about what Jon will do, and likely planning about how to deal with that.

They have a hungry look to them.

Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look.

Julius Caesar Act I, Scene 2

Jon will get caesared. I think Ghost, who will carry Jon's spirit, will haunt Marsh and CO like Caesar's ghost haunted Brutus.

Val

As for her salt references, AA will be reborn form smoke and salt; Val may likely be present at Jon's resurrection when he wakes up.

Beside her was a garron, saddled and bridled, a shaggy grey with one white eye.

From TWoW Theon:

He had been seated on a garron, clad in the pelt of a gigantic snow bear, its head his hood. Under it he wore a stained white leather eye patch

A little hint to Val's heritage, the grey half-blind Mors Umber being her grandfather.

On the morality front I think "greater good" sacrifice being one's personal honor, or any cost one personally bears, is an important distinction. The opposite end of the "greater good" spectrum is probably Tywin's argument about the number of men dead at dinner opposed to a battlefield. I think this plays into the clean vs. bloody hands idea and to a degree Doran's Water Gardens lesson where the cost to the innocent is supposed to be weighed against whatever personal offense has been done to a Lord or Prince.

Marsh's refusal to eat or drink with Jon does stand out as extremely hostile and, at least to me, seems abrupt given their exchange just before Jon heads out to the grove last chapter. Their divide was apparent since the "Mance" burning conversation but this is the first we see of Bowen going from concern or worry into outright hostility. I very much like the Caesar references. Nice catch.

Val as an Umber granddaughter opens up some rather interesting possibilities. Mance is let into the Winterfell wedding because Manderly brought musicians but no singers yet he seems to have brought singers to the Winterfell harvest feast. The GNC has some speculation based on that and it involves Mance encountering the Umbers if I recall correctly. With Dalla and Val as sisters that would make Mance married to an Umber granddaughter. I also like the AA salt connection. I just wish Pillar of Salt had a clearer meaning as a Biblical reference. It would add a different spin to Dany's "if I look back I am lost" mantra.

Ragnorak .. I've always loved that bit of irony about Arya escaping from Roose at Harrenhall. I assume she and Jon will meet at some point , and he'll be blown away. And it would be sweet if Roose came to know he let her slip through his fingers..before he meets some suitable end. :D

Bowen / John Barleycorn

Fire Eater has semi-ninjad me on this , but I was going to say a bit more about eating or drinking with perceived enemies... Here's Davos with Manderly :

“There is wine, if you have a thirst.”

“I will treat with you, my lord. My king commanded that of me. I do not have to drink with you.”

and Jon to Mance as Rattleshirt in Mel's chamber :

“I’ll not break bread with you.”

Now from this chapter, 1) in Jon's solar :

“Please sit,” he (Jon) said. “May I offer you food or drink?”

“We broke our fast in the commons,” said Marsh. “I could do with more.” Yarwyck eased himself down onto a chair. “Good of you to offer.”

“Perhaps some wine?” said Septon Cellador. “Corn,” screamed the raven from the lintel. “Corn,

corn.”

I'm looking ahead for the other two examples I want to point out.. 2) before admitting Tormund's people :

He broke his fast in the cellar with his officers. Fried bread, fried eggs, blood sausages, and barley porridge made up the meal, washed down with thin yellow beer. As they ate they went over the preparations yet again. “All is in readiness,” Bowen Marsh assured him. ( in the cellar = in the commons)

and 3) in Jon's solar again :

Marsh listened attentively, ignoring the mulled wine, whilst Yarwyck drank one cup and then another.

John Barleycorn is present in our chapter, and in the second quote ( for later) ..and this could be the moment plotting took off in earnest , or just the moment Bowen was completely won over ( to Thorne's intentions) ... but I don't think these are the 3 men.. or not all of them.. Bowen is.. he won't partake of Jon's personal hospitalty implying enmity. He may eat with Jon in 2) ... though it's not specifically mentioned ..but in that case , they're in the cellar , not in Jon's personal domain , he's not accepting something from Jon's hand.

I don't think Othell represents one of the 3 men .He partakes heartily on both occasions in the solar ( Good of you to offer). Though he's terribly superstitious, I don't think he actually bears Jon real ill will . (See election). So when the plan turns seriously to the possibility of blood , I don't think he'll be kept in the loop.

Yes, the Arya comment is like an irony layer cake. Tasty!

I really like the connection you made with the cellar meal and John Baerleycorn. When I first pondered it I got tripped up by the details, specifically why was Jon, and not the three men who kill Barleycorn, the one drinking the ale? I think the Corn King references may well continue to offer a bountiful harvest of Ides of Marsh clues.

I'm also a bit uncomfortable with Yarwyck as a conspirator. It isn't impossible but he's clearly in a different space from Marsh or Septon Sot. Yarwyck actually seems to love building so outside of the compressed timeframe I think he's actually happy with the rebuilding tasks. He could still be brought into the conspiracy and go along with it but like you I would suspect that some euphemism for "stabbing" or "assassination" would be used in his presence.

The serpentine steps

The road beneath the Wall was as dark and cold as the belly of an ice dragon and as twisty as a serpent.

...

The baby switch

I know this might be a stretch but does anyone think that there is a possibility that the baby switch never took place? As I posted here, there seems to be a change in the baby we know as the Monster.

...

The Others

...

Val is the one who mentions the Others near the Haunted Forest. Later, we will see that Tormund was reluctant to talk about them at the same place. Is this important?

That serpent word always nags at me when I reread this chapter. I like the serpentine steps reference and the way you tie it in with Bloodraven and the one-eyed horse. The idea that the shortest path is the "bad" one has also come up. There's Dany in HotU both the entrance and the trip and probably the best example is Brienne's trip to the Quiet Isle (and I can't recall who to give credit to for that.) The passage as a serpent and the serpentine steps are by nature longer and winding paths that seem to have positive connotations in this story.

I like a good conspiracy theory but I think the baby swap is a little too much. In full disclosure I stopped tossing it about in my head when I thought about Gilly because it just seemed too cruel to her and I don't think I want it to be true.

Don't have anything on the Others and the Val/Tormund difference. One could toss it up to Tormund having been hunted by them this whole time and having had to kill his own undead son. Val does have a very analytical feel to her comment compared to Tormund's more superstitious feeling comments. What strike me most about Val is her disassociation of "cold" from the Others. Generally we get people who associate cold, or a dropping temperature, as related to the coming of the Others or an increased danger. Dropping temperatures have an ominous feel. Here Val loves the cold and equates it to freedom which is unusual given its common connection to the Others we usually see.

Jon's word to Stannis, which parallels

Eddard's word to Robert, which paralles

Rhaegar's word to Aerys???

It's always interesting to read any reference Jon makes about "his father", in those exact words, in two ways - as referring to both Ned and Rhaegar. Is this a clue that Aerys forced Rhaegar to swear some sort of oath to him (presumably about not rebelling against him) that Rhaegar later rather seriously bent? We know Rhaegar told Jaime as he left for the Trident that he was planning to "make some changes" when he returned.

This chapter always seems to inspire the Jon+Val shippers, but I'm not buying it.

Val may be flirting here, but Jon isn't. A quick look at the chapters in aSoS when he's with Ygritte shows that he thinks of himself as "Jon" when he's with her. But here, he's very much "Jon Snow". This will occur again.

The first thing that comes to mind is Jorah's comment "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died." A reference to an idealism in Rhaegar that he never fully shed? Rhaegar never managed to "kill the boy"? Or perhaps Rhaegar did give his word to Aerys and he wasn't able to make the realm vs. one man's honor choice?

Is it just the romance angle or do you think the "thief" and other references arte just too thin? If it is just the romance angle you dislike do you see any Rhaegar/Lyanna thematic parallels that are noteworthy?

Perhaps oddly I can see where Marsh and Co are coming from here. This goes back to something I think Shadow Cat Rivers (iirc) mentioned previously. Those three have a comfortable life up there on the Wall and they want it to stay that way. Everything they say is about avoiding change. Jon however is not just telling them that things have to change - he is taking active steps to change things, however for them he is a Cassandra, they can't, or don't want to share his sense of danger. They have insulated themselves completely and have their heads in the sand.

Of course they don't want a wildling as master of arms - they want somebody like themselves, ditto Satin as steward. They want to see the perpetuation of the old, familiar, safe order of things. Bringing the Wildlings through in numbers threatens change - and worse - work! If in Sam I AFFC we saw the builders being worked harder than ever before then that is the fate that awaits all of the officers of the watch. Marsh will have to feed the five thousand with five fish and three loaves, there will be no escape from longer, harder, duties. No more easy days, sitting by the fire, drinking mulled wine, enjoying lobsters, surrounded by the company of the decent sort of men who respect the social superiority of good ol' boys like Marsh and Cellar Door. INstead they are going to have to deal socially as equals with the kinds of persons they patronised down in Moles Town and **horrors** wildlings and there won't be enough wine to round everyone ! :laugh:

I understand where they are coming from, I just can't find a sympathetically reasonable approach angle to say anything redeeming about their stances. Jon isn't really the instrument of change here. There's this little Ice Zombie Apocalypse that's blowing change on its rising cold winds. The non-personnel change objection they have is to the two potential wight corpses. They really do have their heads in the sand and are freaking out that Jon has just stuffed the undead into their sandy hole where they can't avoid seeing it. It comes off as rage against reality. Sealing the gate will not close Pandora's Box and that big giant thing called the sky ought to be their first clue that the box has no lid. They just got attacked by a group of Wildlings that scaled the Wall. Redbeard scaled the Wall in very recent history and got a whole army across. Marsh seems to think the Watch can only be safeguarded by a Douglas Adams "Somebody Else's Problem Field" that can be activated by sealing the Castle Black gate.

The Stuart Mill quote came to mind because of these men. Decay seemed rather appropriate for the Watch in general and the moral decay fits with their indifference to the Wildlings' value as humans and the patriotic decay seems to sum up their refusal to respect the Watch's traditions by giving Leathers and Satin (who isn't even a Wildling) the clean slate that is foundational to their Order among other shortcomings in recognizing their true duty. Smallwood was a bit of a class snob and a blowhard but even he found a hill worth dying on when the Ice Zombie invasion came knocking. These men seem to have found a hill worth stabbing Jon on but when it comes to finding one worth dying on the landscape is flatter than Kansas.

[-Winterfellian-]

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

--John Stuart Mill

What is worth dying for? seems to be a bit of an underlying theme.

Which brings us to Bowen Marsh and company for whom very little if anything seems worth dying for.

Great summary Ragnorak!

Though I pretty much think you are spot on with your assessment of Bowen and company, specially the Septon, I want to comment on something from the above I do not necessarily agree with.

Personally, I don't think that Marsh fits the profile of someone with nothing to die for. That is, is not that he does not have some something for which he is willing to fight, but rather than this goal is anything but noble and founded on prejudice and ignorance. Back in ASOS, Marsh, who does not appear to have a fighters bone in his body, willingly let a defense of CB (ill planned as it was) well into the gorge. His injury implies that he even took some part in the fight. So it seems that there is something for Marsh is willing to put his life at stake- preservation of the NW or at least what Marsh understands to be the NW. Even conspiring to kill Jon in Jon XIII requires some guts. The guy will have to be pretty dim or deluded to think things were going to go smoothly after the stabbing.

So I imagine that Stannis and eventually Jon letting the wildings through the wall is a slap on the face as it pretty much nullifies the sacrifice he was willing to make. Not that this make him any more right in regards to his policies or his idea of what a common goal is. So is not so much that Marsh is not willing to risk his life for a cause, but rather that said cause is , well, just plain wrong and misguided given the situation. It adds a certain note of tragedy to his actions I feel.

The Septon is clearly unprepared so is either a follower of Marsh in this or perhaps just more pious to Dionysus than the Seven.

LOL

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The first thing that comes to mind is Jorah's comment "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died." A reference to an idealism in Rhaegar that he never fully shed? Rhaegar never managed to "kill the boy"? Or perhaps Rhaegar did give his word to Aerys and he wasn't able to make the realm vs. one man's honor choice?

I think Rhaegar gave his word to his father, had determined that he must break that word, but got hammered by his cousin before he could act. There's a bit of Hamlet in Rhaegar - always looking for a bit more evidence before he could make the decision to act. His indecisiveness turned out to be rather costly to him and his family. Both Ned and Jon made the decision to act, risking their personal honor, to achieve a greater good.

Is it just the romance angle or do you think the "thief" and other references arte just too thin? If it is just the romance angle you dislike do you see any Rhaegar/Lyanna thematic parallels that are noteworthy?

The whole "stealing a bride" tradition that the wildings embrace seems to be a type of romantic fiction. As Ygritte points out, no self-respecting wilding woman would put up with being stolen by a man she didn't approve of in the first place. If the man is bold enough and strong enough to steal her, though, that's supposed to be a perfectly sound reason to fall in love with the guy, or at least breed with him. (Substitute "win the tourney while wearing her favor" or "slay the evil monster and rescue her" and you're down south in the land of knights and ladies. Although southern ladies who don't approve of their knight don't usually stick a knife in him. They just don their courtesy armor.)

From what we can tell, Lyanna would have made a great spearwife. No one could have stolen her without her tacit consent.

Theft, however, requires intent. Jon clearly did not intend to steal either Ygritte or Val. (The wildings seem to be locked in their traditional gender roles just as much as the southerners. Neither Ygritte or Val claim to have stolen Jon.) What we have here is not theft by Jon, but attempted seduction by Val. So far it's not working. And we've heard stories about the LCotNW being seduced before.

[Ragnorak]

Personally, I don't think that Marsh fits the profile of someone with nothing to die for. That is, is not that he does not have some something for which he is willing to fight, but rather than this goal is anything but noble and founded on prejudice and ignorance. Back in ASOS, Marsh, who does not appear to have a fighters bone in his body, willingly let a defense of CB (ill planned as it was) well into the gorge. His injury implies that he even took some part in the fight. So it seems that there is something for Marsh is willing to put his life at stake- preservation of the NW or at least what Marsh understands to be the NW. Even conspiring to kill Jon in Jon XIII requires some guts. The guy will have to be pretty dim or deluded to think things were going to go smoothly after the stabbing.

So I imagine that Stannis and eventually Jon letting the wildings through the wall is a slap on the face as it pretty much nullifies the sacrifice he was willing to make. Not that this make him any more right in regards to his policies or his idea of what a common goal is. So is not so much that Marsh is not willing to risk his life for a cause, but rather that said cause is , well, just plain wrong and misguided given the situation. It adds a certain note of tragedy to his actions I feel.

LOL

I think your choice of the word tragic is accurate. Bowen does have an intentionally sympathetic presentation up until now even though he is painted pretty clearly outside of the proper course of action lines.

I am still struck here by the lack of redeemable points to pick out. Even Barristan's objection to the Unsullied purchase came with an alternative suggestion of sending envoys to test the Westeros waters. It wasn't creative since it was the plan on the table before detouring to Astapor, but it was an actual suggestion. For perspective can you imagine Balon Greyjoy's reaction to "the men don't like it" regarding his plan to attack the North? Or the Hand making a policy and the Gold Cloak Commander telling him to change it because the men don't like it but refusing to offer any alternative solution and just continually parroting the man don't like it? Aerys would have burned him, Balon would have drowned him, Tywin would have beheaded him, Randyl Tarly would have gelded him and forced him to join the Silent Sisters and Roose would have appointed him to the gaolers training division in the flaying department. Of course these are all men that understand Southron trappings of power so perhaps if Jon had chosen to make use of some of those trappings they would react differently. If he had though the Wildlings might not have taken to him as they did which is at the heart of the divide here. It does make the point about Jon's approachability as a Lord Commander though as these men would have feared to make these objections to anyone on the above list.

I think Rhaegar gave his word to his father, had determined that he must break that word, but got hammered by his cousin before he could act. There's a bit of Hamlet in Rhaegar - always looking for a bit more evidence before he could make the decision to act. His indecisiveness turned out to be rather costly to him and his family. Both Ned and Jon made the decision to act, risking their personal honor, to achieve a greater good.

The whole "stealing a bride" tradition that the wildings embrace seems to be a type of romantic fiction. As Ygritte points out, no self-respecting wilding woman would put up with being stolen by a man she didn't approve of in the first place. If the man is bold enough and strong enough to steal her, though, that's supposed to be a perfectly sound reason to fall in love with the guy, or at least breed with him. (Substitute "win the tourney while wearing her favor" or "slay the evil monster and rescue her" and you're down south in the land of knights and ladies. Although southern ladies who don't approve of their knight don't usually stick a knife in him. They just don their courtesy armor.)

From what we can tell, Lyanna would have made a great spearwife. No one could have stolen her without her tacit consent.

Theft, however, requires intent. Jon clearly did not intend to steal either Ygritte or Val. (The wildings seem to be locked in their traditional gender roles just as much as the southerners. Neither Ygritte or Val claim to have stolen Jon.) What we have here is not theft by Jon, but attempted seduction by Val. So far it's not working. And we've heard stories about the LCotNW being seduced before.

.Thank you. I agree with your sentiments on Rhaegar though I'd be hard pressed to pull quotes to support it. Hamlet is a good comparison and I don't recall seeing it made before.

I like your description of the stealing tradition as a form of romantic fiction. I seem to recall Bran fearing the Knight of the Laughing Tree story was going to be a kissing story and not a knight story which fits well with what you've written. I think it is too early to call a Jon romance with anyone and there is a degree of subtext that romance has its downside or tragic consequences. We'll also get a bit more flirting later when Alys shows up which seems to be another interested woman where Jon doesn't reciprocate. I do think they represent opportunities that he is denying himself by keeping his Nights Watch vows and serve to put romance as a theme on the table in his arc. In that sense it is it is only natural for readers to speculate since our author is poking us with the romance stick, but I agree that there is an explicit lack of intent on Jon's part.

I find it most interesting in the thematic parallels to the "stolen" Lyanna and how Ygritte, Bael the Bard, Gilly's son and Val all orbit around the sketchy details of Lyanna's backstory.

Which men? Jon might have asked. How many? But that would lead him down a road he did not mean to ride. “I am sorry to hear that. Is there more?”

I think this line is rather significant in its leadership style implications. What is this road Jon doesn't want to take? (Which is a recurring theme all on it own.) Putting political factions in opposition to each other is a common means of securing power. Tywin does it frequently. He leaves Lorch and Hoat at each others' throats in Harrenhal, he sets up Tyrion and Cersei to infight in Kings Landing. Given that Jon eventually gets stabbed by these people it is easy to point out that he ought to have pitted them against each other to secure his position. I think that misses the point that Jon values something here more than the security of his position. This is a small line that's easy to gloss over but it strikes me as setting him apart from the leadership styles of most every power grabber we see who manages to plant their buttocks into a chair of any importance.

[Fire Eater]

I loved a maid as white as winter, with moonglow in her hair

The light of the half-moon turned Val's honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow.

Val is the Winter Queen. She is from the wildlings whom Jon referred to as "winter's people," and with the Long Winter coming she may be queen in the end. There's no question who her king would be. I say queen because "maid as fair as summer with sunlight in her hair" is Cersei, with her power highest in summer and her golden hair comes from Lann the Clever whose hair was from gold stolen from the sun according to legend. The "maid as red as autumn with sunset in her hair" is Melisandre, the red woman with hair red like sunset.

Is it just the romance angle or do you think the "thief" and other references arte just too thin? If it is just the romance angle you dislike do you see any Rhaegar/Lyanna thematic parallels that are noteworthy?

Lyanna was a princess in a tower like Val. In both couples, one is fair haired, and the other dark-haired. Val and Lyanna are also both good horsewomen.

[Lummel]

...I understand where they are coming from, I just can't find a sympathetically reasonable approach angle to say anything redeeming about their stances. Jon isn't really the instrument of change here. There's this little Ice Zombie Apocalypse that's blowing change on its rising cold winds...Marsh seems to think the Watch can only be safeguarded by a Douglas Adams "Somebody Else's Problem Field" that can be activated by sealing the Castle Black gate...

Oh I don't think there is anything redeeming about their stance, it is what it is. Marsh is quite clear in his discussion of tradition, a knight does this job: 'a suitable person being groomed for command does that job, this is the way it has always been, this is the way we like it and are comfortable. You are putting us out of our comfort zone and we're not happy'

...Personally, I don't think that Marsh fits the profile of someone with nothing to die for. That is, is not that he does not have some something for which he is willing to fight, but rather than this goal is anything but noble and founded on prejudice and ignorance. Back in ASOS, Marsh, who does not appear to have a fighters bone in his body, willingly let a defense of CB (ill planned as it was) well into the gorge. His injury implies that he even took some part in the fight. So it seems that there is something for Marsh is willing to put his life at stake- preservation of the NW or at least what Marsh understands to be the NW. Even conspiring to kill Jon in Jon XIII requires some guts. The guy will have to be pretty dim or deluded to think things were going to go smoothly after the stabbing...

True, like it or not, there has to be bravery in the man.

...Theft, however, requires intent. Jon clearly did not intend to steal either Ygritte or Val. (The wildings seem to be locked in their traditional gender roles just as much as the southerners. Neither Ygritte or Val claim to have stolen Jon.) What we have here is not theft by Jon, but attempted seduction by Val. So far it's not working. And we've heard stories about the LCotNW being seduced before.

Theft requires intent in our cultural traditions, we know that Ygritte was quite clear that she regarded herself as having been stolen by Jon without quizzing him over his mens rea on the evening in question. In the cases of both Ygritte and Val there seems to be an element of not just securing the woman and physically taking ownership over her but of permanently displacing the previous owner too, I wonder if the question about the death of Jarl was actually Val quizzing Jon about his actus reus - perhaps from her point of view if he had admitted to killing Jarl that may have settled the case decisively in favour of her having been stolen by Jon in traditional King of the Wood fashion. (My use of owner is deliberate - I'm not partial to a romantic reading of the wildlings today).

...I think this line is rather significant in its leadership style implications. What is this road Jon doesn't want to take? ...

Oh, I read that as simply pushing Marsh (or Marshy Mully) to be explicit and to name names. Jon feels that he doesn't want to go down that road. Perhaps he's right, the Night's Watch is not a democracy, if five hundred and one watchmen disapprove of his policy Jon can still insist on their obedience. In that sense the who isn't relevant, but what is relevant is that he allows people to sit down and disagree with him. This isn't a democracy, but neither is it a tyranny.

A few notes from rereading the chapter-

I think the turning point to taking action comes two chapters earlier "trusting that Val could succeed where Black Jack Bulwer and his companions had failed" p515 doesn't that tell us that Jon was trying to contact Tormund first with his rangers, sending Val out is his plan B (or plan D depending on how we are counting this)? It seems that they were sent out just to range, but that at least one group had an objective - find Tormund and start talks.

The serpentine way I thought paralleled the "rag wrapped around his wounded word". Nothing here is direct. Jon's path in relation to Stannis' will is a twisted route to their agreed destination. There is clarity, at least at this point in the chapter, but no directness.

"you have my thanks...for hope" quoth Val - what exactly is she hoping for? The obvious answer is the fulfilment of the Mance's (and her?) plan to bring the wildlings south of the wall for security. Or is she hoping for something else?

She calls him "my lord", a kneelers phrase, and not m'lud neither. "for the boy", in the light of "kill the boy" struck me as potentially ambiguous, we're back to flirting here and if the monster listens to her singing then so has Jon - at least once. Which boy is she singing to? :wub: , both mayhaps.

A brief mention of the gift near to Castle black as having been hunted bare page 517

Harlots Tower - Whore's Hole - further attempts to frame the debate through the choice of terminology...

"Are you so blind, or is it that you do not wish to see" p522 hmm

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Thank you. I agree with your sentiments on Rhaegar though I'd be hard pressed to pull quotes to support it. Hamlet is a good comparison and I don't recall seeing it made before.

Yeah. No quotes exist. We have practically no info about Rhaegar's views and nothing about Aerys'. Everything is about the POV, and GRRM is sitting on those two views, holding them behind his back for a later reveal. That's why I try to examine Jon's references to his "father " to try to pick up clues about Rhaegar. But it is speculative, I agree.

[Maia]

And now we have reached the meat of Jon's arc in ADwD! And I guess that I'll have to continue with my lone dissent re: some of Jon's decisions.

Jon VII

Interestingly enough, Bowen Marsh is quite worried about Jon here and doesn't want him to take risks.

A bit strange that Marsh, who supervised Jon's own oath-taking in AGoT and considered the weirwood grove to be "a sacred place" back then, is now arguing for the sept as a better alternative. Did Marsh's own religious feelings shift towards the Faith during the series, as Sam's shifted to the Old Gods? Jon is right to refute such arguments, of course.

OTOH, as a devil's advocate I'd have to point out that it is easy to see that in it's current situation NW could have used an alternative place for the followers of the Old Gods to worship and make vows in. As it is, they had to wait for a long time for clement weather and it is only going to become more dangerous to go out there.

It is also a bit strange that Old Gods worshippers at the Wall were discriminated against in such a manner. Even during peaceful times they couldn't just go an pray whenever they felt the need, as it takes half a day to get there and back. And we saw that Ned, for instance, felt it quite often. As do the wildlings, if Osha is any guide.

They have weirwood heart-trees in most southern castles, even those belonging to firm followers of the Faith, such as Casterly Rock. So why not at/close to Castle Black? There is something odd going on there, IMHO.

Some interesting people in Jon's escort:

Tom Barleycorn has to be a descendant of one of the poor Osgrey recruits to whom Dunk and Egg gave "lord's names", right?

And Big Liddle?! Wow, I have forgotten that. How come that son of a mountain chieftain is a simple ranger, not even an officer? And why didn't it occur to anybody to send him to his kin to plead for help back when the Night's Watch was expecting Mance's attack?

"These men are about to pledge their lives to the Night's Watch, joining a brotherhood that stretches back in an unbroken line for thousands of years. The words matter, and so do these traditions. They bind us all together, highborn and low, young and old, base and noble. They make us brothers."

This, I think, is very significant.

Here, Jon is cognizant of the importance of oaths and traditions, but at the same time he is oblivious to the fact that the more he loosens, bends and finally breaks them, the less he could count on them upholding and protecting his authority and his cause. In view of the above, how could Jon justify sparing Mance? Particularly considering his own thoughts on the man:

"It seemed like madness now. He might have done better to strike down Mance the moment he revealed himself. Jon had a certain grudging admiration for the late King-Beyond-the-Wall, but the man was an oathbreaker and a turncloak".

Anyway, on to Jon VIII:

It may have seemed that Jon had an inspiration to let the wildlings through in the last chapter, but here we learn that Black Jack Bulwer may well have been entrusted with the same task as Val.

Val makes a distinction between normal cold and the cold that comes with the Others. Hm... And also, how does she know that Melisandre sees "kings and dragons" in her fires? Did Mel talk to her or is she some kind of seer herself?

Mully is clearly one of Bowen Marsh's followers. How many agree with him at this point? It is tempting to dismiss his following as imaginary, but Jon did admit to himself a couple of chapters back that he saw unfriendly looks from some of the men, while others were blatantly avoiding him.

Finally, Jon's confrontation with his officers. Bowen is quite changed from the previous chapter. He does himself no favors with the way his argues his case(s) and some of his arguments are just blatant bigotry, but some have merit.

Let's start with the most weighty one:

"In this world I have no food to feed them."

This is a huge, huge problem for Jon's plans with the wildlings and him dismissing it out of hand makes him look like an ivory tower idealist completely divorced from the dire reality that the NW is currently in. A cleverer man than Bowen would have made this the crux of his argument.

Because, yea, Jon is right that:

"The dead will rise again, in their hundreds and their thousands. They will rise as wights, with black hands and pale blue eyes, and they will come for us. "

But if he doesn't have enough food for the living to survive on through the winter, they are just going to fall over each other instead. Particularly once the wildlings find out that Jon's offer was false - he offered to feed them through the winter, but he can't.

By letting the wildlings in he is just changing who is going to die, not really saving more people. Understandably, Marsh et al. don't like the fact that Jon is saving some wildlings at their expense and that of other northeners.

The Gifts close to Castle Black may be hunted out, but they stretch the whole way along the Wall. There should be some food to find in them still, if foraging were organized immediately. Not nearly enough to feed the wildlings through the winter, of course.

These are wildlings. Savages, raiders, rapers, more beast than man."

"Tormund is none of those things," said Jon, "no more than Mance Rayder."

OK, Tormund and Mance were definitely notorious raiders. And since abducted women don't know that they are allowed to kill their captors (if they really are and would be allowed to return home by others in the party, rather than killed in return if they did), those raiders that carry them off are definitely rapers. Jon looks a liar by refusing to admit it, IMHO.

"But even if every word you said was true, they are still men, Bowen. Living men, human as you and me. Winter is coming, my lords, and when it does, we living men will need to stand together against the dead."

A noble sentiment. But how realistic is it? After all, this is what Jon said of Rattleshirt in Melisandre's chapter:

You do not know this creature. Rattleshirt could wash his hands a hundred times a day and he'd still have blood beneath his nails. He'd be more like to rape and murder Arya than to save her.

And now he is suddenly convinced that people like this are going to make reliable allies because they are living men. Well, so are the Boltons, but as we have seen Jon isn't rushing to make alliance with _them_, is he?

IMHO, if Jon wanted to persuade Bowen et al., he should have highlighted Tormund's virtues and advantages of having him as an ally, rather than made blatantly untrue or foolishly idealistic statements. Get them to accept the most trustworthy, presentable and charismatic wildlings (first?).

There is also this thought of Mance's about Jon from Melisandre's chapter:

"Snow's been assuming the free folk would turn to Tormund to lead them, _because that's what he would do_. He liked Tormund, and the old fraud liked him too. If it's the Weeper, though … that's not good. Not for him, and not for us."

IMHO, this is a hint of Jon's fatal flaw when dealing with the wildlings. He thinks that they would do what he would have done in their situation. But they won't, not necessarily. And Weeper, Rattleshirt and others like them are untrustworthy and bad news even in the eyes of their fellow wildlings.

So, no, not all living men are going to play nice when faced with the threat of the Others and it is foolish to claim otherwise. In fact, this insistence makes Jon's pragmatic arguments far less convincing than they could have been.

"Why, then, you may have a chance to choose a lord commander more to your liking. Until such time, I fear you'll still need to suffer me."

Jon gives Bowen an idea for the Ides of Marsh? As we all know, Lord Steward is not an idea-man himself...

Jon's contraversual appointments - is it really a good idea to alienate his officers by making them when he has a much bigger fish to fry with his wildling plans? And to make them feel like they have no input whatsoever in his decisions? It would have been a better idea to throw them a bone on less important issues, IMHO.

[bemused]

Maia ... Just quickly..Neither Tormund nor Mance have been raiders , IMO. Upcoming , Tormund will say...

" It’s going to snow all night, I feel it. Time I had a look at what’s on t’other side of all that ice."

...clearly implying that he's never been south of the Wall, himself.

Mance says he has been across the Wall half a hundred times , but never mentions leading a raiding party. He definitely didn't steal his wife from south of the Wall, and the one specific trip we know of was for information gathering . I strongly suspect that all his trips were made for similar reasons, and on his own. His Abel persona seems designed with that in mind - keeping himself apprised of the political developments south of the Wall over the years . An itinerant singer would probably be welcomed in most places and it's an ideal way of picking up the latest news and gossip.

Bowen may not be an idea man , but Thorne is.

ETA; I don't think it's reasonable to assert that Jon could have made an alliance with the Boltons , for all the reasons that have been argued countless times before. E.g. -They would not ignore his Stark blood , have never shown much ( if any) interest in the NW and the Wall throughout the books ..and are hell bent on their own power grab in ADWD. (Not to mention the complications stemming from Stannis' presence.)

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Good job everyone. Finally got some time to read the chapters, most things have already been covered.

A few notes on Jon VII:

-As Maia noted, I find it odd that Castle Black has no weirwood tree. Do yoy think it's for plot convenience or does it have a more important significance?

-Glass gardens: it seems that Jon has taken to heart Aemon's (and Sam's) advice about knowledge, and integrated it to his own more practical thinking. I like that he did not think about buying the glass, but the know-how to make it instead. More on knowledge, the corpses that he bought back in hope to learn more about the Whites. And one more thing: is Dany the one to bring what he needs? Dragons, her freedmen from all over Essos with their skills and crafts... They seem complementary in that she has the "tools" and he has the "tasks".

-I think that Jon had already in mind to bring the wildlings in (as early as they talked about it with Mance and then Stannis), but this experience in the groove made him more convinced and more convinced about the importance to do so, as much as to risk his head for it as we see in Jon VIII.

-Stannis' letter: There is something about this letter that make it appear as Stannis is ...happy? I think that Stannis is in his element there, doing what he knows best, a self-fulfillment as a "king" (does his duty, protects "his" realm, no grey decisions and no significant compromises to be made and by doing this he is rewarded with people coming to fight with him -not for him- he becomes the hope, the oportunity to fight with a possibility to win, for the people who don't have a place in the current situation in the North). I think that it has to do with being away from Melisandre's influence.

Moving on to the chapter in hand.

Jon chose the "right" over the "honorable" thing, and I wonder if it is the attempt to excuse himself that he believes that Ned wouldn't approve, or the decision itself. Ned chose twice (as far as we know) love over his honor (Jon doesn't know about the first that, ironically, was for himself, but he never believed the accusations of treason, that Ned confessed in order to save Sansa. So he knows that Ned chose to stain his honor for a greater purpose.)

Val. I think she's right that Melisandre knows about the baby swap and she's also right in the why she let it pass - "Because it suited her". I think that the baby swap gave her the idea of her own swap and anyway she never thought Mance or his baby to be kingly enough to use their blood.

Her stance towards Mel, however, is based on (rightful and justified) suspicion and mistrust and not on some deeper knowledge. Val has surely heared some of Mel's speaches in the nightfires and I am certain that Mel would speak of her visions (or "visions"), about kings and dragons and all that.

Bowen is the type of guy who has a problem for every solution :)

The other two are not really important IMO, for all their prejudice, ignorance and denial, they wouldn't move on their own. The septon especially is portrayed as the most useless (and quite loathsome) human being ever and being a septon only makes it worse.

Marsh on the other hand seems to have almost made his mind in this chapter. As everyone has noted, his refusal to eat and drink with Jon (in contrast to the septon and Yarwyck) is telling. I think that what sets him apart from the others is that he truly believes that he's doing it "for the Watch". That's what gives him the motivation to take the risk to move.

[bemused]

More about Bowen & Co...This is the chapter that made me begin to question Bowen's opinion of Jon going right back to AGoT.

“What he was in Oldtown is none of our concern. He’s quick to learn and very clever. The other recruits started out despising him, but he won them over and made friends of them all. He’s fearless in a fight and can even read and write after a fashion. He should be capable of fetching me my meals and saddling my horse, don’t you think?”

“Most like,” said Bowen Marsh, stony-faced, “but the men do not like it. Traditionally the lord commander’s squires are lads of good birth being groomed for command. Does my lord believe the men of the Night’s Watch would ever follow a whore into battle?”

Jon’s temper flashed. “They have followed worse. - "

If Bowen's argument against Satin is honest , then he can never have approved of Jon's appointment as Mormont's steward. As a bastard , Jon would not be thought to be "of good birth" by Bowen. It follows then, that the Old Bear appointed Jon over the objections of Marsh and Thorne (but most probably not Aemon ). Also , it seems to me that Bowen must have privately resented Jon's success in defending CB and the Wall , compared to his own dismal failure. This would agree with his later reasoning when trying to convince Jon to seal the gates. ( He points out that Mormont's losses have weakened the Watch, but doesn't mention his own.) This resentment would make him receptive to Thorne , Slynt and Cellador's opinions as opposed to Aemon's - and explain his removing Jon from normal duty prior to the election. ( I've always considered this an unnecessary move at best. )

The men say.. This could be just a tactic , and I don't know if Bowen uses it automatically or if he's been advised to use it , but we see it repeated by Mully as well . Of course , it can imply that more men subscribe to a certain viewpoint than may be the case.. but whatever the case , Jon can't be moved by it .. he still has to do what he thinks is right. But it can be more damaging when used in conversation with others , in trying to sway more of "the men" themselves to Bowen's view .. or e.g. , Selyse..

It seems obvious that if Satin has won over and made friends of the other recruits , I doubt most of "the men" can be far behind. Nobody even blinks at Alf's grief over Garth, so I doubt there can be a blanket refusal to accept the idea of homosexual preferences ... and as Ragnorak and others have pointed out before, most of the men are not what Bowen would consider to be "of good birth", themselves. ... So IMO , it can hardly be supposed that they'd object to Satin on those grounds. Yet Bowen tries to claim "The men do not like it".(He doesn't like it. )

Othell's version of "the men say" is a bit different . It seems to spring from superstition more than bigotry or class consciousness ..

“I … my lord, the men would never … giants eat human flesh, I think … no, my lord, I thank you,

but I do not have the men to watch over such a creature, he …”

..it smacks of his later fears of a pig army . But in his later opinion of wildlings , themselves , we may see a softening of the general opinion .. then, it's based on the fact that the wildlings don't know the building techniques and won't follow orders .. things that can be improved upon . He even gives them credit for skill in woodworking. He doesn't argue that they're killers you can't turn your back on.. Necessity will demand he use them , eventually , and then I think further change will occur . Othell is not beyond common sense.

In Jon VII , this also has a different ring to me ..

Edd’s mouth turned down even more than usual. “Some might think it better if the lord commander stayed safe and warm south of the Wall. Not that I’d say such myself, but some might.”

Jon smiled. “Some had best not say so in my presence.”

I've talked to people who want to see this as Edd being in tune with Bowen. I think Edd's giving a heads up to Jon of what Bowen's ilk will say or has already said behind his back , and Jon knows very well who Edd means by "some".

Bowen's food argument doesn't hold up for me.. because if they hit a really long winter ( and the accepted wisdom is "the longer the summer , the longer the winter that follows") , then he doesn't have enough food to see even the remaining NW through winter... There's more coming up about this in later chapters.

Back to Val.... It's not the "kings and dragons" that hint at Val being a seer but knowing where she must go and that Mel knows who the baby is , etc.

In ASos , Grenn tells Sam..

“The king’s sorceress. They say she burned a man alive at Dragonstone so Stannis would have favorable winds for his voyage north."

And Val says to Jon and Sam..

“I’ve heard the queen’s men saying that the red woman means to give Mance to the fire, as soon as he is strong enough.”

** Aside - this is just one of the things that tells me Stannis is aware of the glamour. Weak , strong , wounded or healed wouldn't make a difference to whether he could be burned. It only makes a difference because he has to be strong enough to pass for Rattleshirt , who has not been injured and has been walking around hale and hearty since he was taken captive at Eastwatch.

And in AFFC, Jon tells Sam..

"I have heard the same from others. King’s blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure."

Gossip about Mel and her visions is rife from the time Stannis arrives. Those actions and visions are common knowledge.

Shadow Cat Rivers .. I think Jon did have letting the wildlings through on his mind much earlier , but while Stannis was at the Wall outnumbering him , he couldn't have done it except under Stannis' conditions. Though Jon has always taken his vows seriously, his experience all through the books has caused him to have to wrestle with them , to take a deeper look at their meaning , and try to reduce them to their purest essence. ( As opposed to those who just repeat them by rote , and may never have had a reason , or the inclination to think beyond the superficial meaning. )

At the weirwood grove in ADWD , beginning with Jon's silent prayer.. ( the recruits have just uttered , " I shall live and die at my post ." ) ...

Gods of the wood, grant me the strength to do the same, Jon Snow prayed silently. Give me the wisdom to know what must be done and the courage to do it.

“I am the sword in the darkness,” said the six, and it seemed to Jon as though their voices were

changing, growing stronger, more certain. “I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns

against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.”

The shield that guards the realms of men. Ghost nuzzled up against his shoulder, and Jon draped an arm around him .

I like the way the recruits' voices grow stronger when they come to the passage that to my mind, represents the essence of the oath and that immediately following , Jon dwelling on"The shield that guards the realms of men".. implies that Jon has received the wisdom he prayed for .. from within and perhaps the proximity of Ghost ( as others have suggested , his personal weirwood significator)

Thinking of it like Sam's onion , if the shield that guards the realms of men is at the centre ,then working your way out layer by layer , the separate conventions such as "the NW takes no part" would be on the outside and would be the first to be carved away, if mildew and rot had set in . You'd still have a good portion of onion left if the layers representing wives, children ,glory , and even crowns should also have to go. ..The whole nutritious core would still be there.

[Ulrik1312]

More about Bowen & Co...This is the chapter that made me begin to question Bowen's opinion of Jon going right back to AGoT.

“What he was in Oldtown is none of our concern. He’s quick to learn and very clever. The other recruits started out despising him, but he won them over and made friends of them all. He’s fearless in a fight and can even read and write after a fashion. He should be capable of fetching me my meals and saddling my horse, don’t you think?”

“Most like,” said Bowen Marsh, stony-faced, “but the men do not like it. Traditionally the lord commander’s squires are lads of good birth being groomed for command. Does my lord believe the men of the Night’s Watch would ever follow a whore into battle?”

Jon’s temper flashed. “They have followed worse. - "

If Bowen's argument against Satin is honest , then he can never have approved of Jon's appointment as Mormont's steward. As a bastard , Jon would not be thought to be "of good birth" by Bowen. It follows then, that the Old Bear appointed Jon over the objections of Marsh and Thorne (but most probably not Aemon ). Also , it seems to me that Bowen must have privately resented Jon's success in defending CB and the Wall , compared to his own dismal failure. This would agree with his later reasoning when trying to convince Jon to seal the gates. ( He points out that Mormont's losses have weakened the Watch, but doesn't mention his own.) This resentment would make him receptive to Thorne , Slynt and Cellador's opinions as opposed to Aemon's - and explain his removing Jon from normal duty prior to the election. ( I've always considered this an unnecessary move at best. )

The men say.. This could be just a tactic , and I don't know if Bowen uses it automatically or if he's been advised to use it , but we see it repeated by Mully as well . Of course , it can imply that more men subscribe to a certain viewpoint than may be the case.. but whatever the case , Jon can't be moved by it .. he still has to do what he thinks is right. But it can be more damaging when used in conversation with others , in trying to sway more of "the men" themselves to Bowen's view .. or e.g. , Selyse..

It seems obvious that if Satin has won over and made friends of the other recruits , I doubt most of "the men" can be far behind. Nobody even blinks at Alf's grief over Garth, so I doubt there can be a blanket refusal to accept the idea of homosexual preferences ... and as Ragnorak and others have pointed out before, most of the men are not what Bowen would consider to be "of good birth", themselves. ... So IMO , it can hardly be supposed that they'd object to Satin on those grounds. Yet Bowen tries to claim "The men do not like it".(He doesn't like it. )

Othell's version of "the men say" is a bit different . It seems to spring from superstition more than bigotry or class consciousness ..

“I … my lord, the men would never … giants eat human flesh, I think … no, my lord, I thank you,

but I do not have the men to watch over such a creature, he …”

..it smacks of his later fears of a pig army . But in his later opinion of wildlings , themselves , we may see a softening of the general opinion .. then, it's based on the fact that the wildlings don't know the building techniques and won't follow orders .. things that can be improved upon . He even gives them credit for skill in woodworking. He doesn't argue that they're killers you can't turn your back on.. Necessity will demand he use them , eventually , and then I think further change will occur . Othell is not beyond common sense.

In Jon VII , this also has a different ring to me ..

Edd’s mouth turned down even more than usual. “Some might think it better if the lord commander stayed safe and warm south of the Wall. Not that I’d say such myself, but some might.”

Jon smiled. “Some had best not say so in my presence.”

I've talked to people who want to see this as Edd being in tune with Bowen. I think Edd's giving a heads up to Jon of what Bowen's ilk will say or has already said behind his back , and Jon knows very well who Edd means by "some".

Bowen's food argument doesn't hold up for me.. because if they hit a really long winter ( and the accepted wisdom is "the longer the summer , the longer the winter that follows") , then he doesn't have enough food to see even the remaining NW through winter... There's more coming up about this in later chapters.

Back to Val.... It's not the "kings and dragons" that hint at Val being a seer but knowing where she must go and that Mel knows who the baby is , etc.

In ASos , Grenn tells Sam..

“The king’s sorceress. They say she burned a man alive at Dragonstone so Stannis would have favorable winds for his voyage north."

And Val says to Jon and Sam..

“I’ve heard the queen’s men saying that the red woman means to give Mance to the fire, as soon as he is strong enough.”

** Aside - this is just one of the things that tells me Stannis is aware of the glamour. Weak , strong , wounded or healed wouldn't make a difference to whether he could be burned. It only makes a difference because he has to be strong enough to pass for Rattleshirt , who has not been injured and has been walking around hale and hearty since he was taken captive at Eastwatch.

And in AFFC, Jon tells Sam..

"I have heard the same from others. King’s blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure."

Gossip about Mel and her visions is rife from the time Stannis arrives. Those actions and visions are common knowledge.

Shadow Cat Rivers .. I think Jon did have letting the wildlings through on his mind much earlier , but while Stannis was at the Wall outnumbering him , he couldn't have done it except under Stannis' conditions. Though Jon has always taken his vows seriously, his experience all through the books has caused him to have to wrestle with them , to take a deeper look at their meaning , and try to reduce them to their purest essence. ( As opposed to those who just repeat them by rote , and may never have had a reason , or the inclination to think beyond the superficial meaning. )

At the weirwood grove in ADWD , beginning with Jon's silent prayer.. ( the recruits have just uttered , " I shall live and die at my post ." ) ...

Gods of the wood, grant me the strength to do the same, Jon Snow prayed silently. Give me the wisdom to know what must be done and the courage to do it.

“I am the sword in the darkness,” said the six, and it seemed to Jon as though their voices were

changing, growing stronger, more certain. “I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns

against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.”

The shield that guards the realms of men. Ghost nuzzled up against his shoulder, and Jon draped an arm around him .

I like the way the recruits' voices grow stronger when they come to the passage that to my mind, represents the essence of the oath and that immediately following , Jon dwelling on"The shield that guards the realms of men".. implies that Jon has received the wisdom he prayed for .. from within and perhaps the proximity of Ghost ( as others have suggested , his personal weirwood significator)

Thinking of it like Sam's onion , if the shield that guards the realms of men is at the centre ,then working your way out layer by layer , the separate conventions such as "the NW takes no part" would be on the outside and would be the first to be carved away, if mildew and rot had set in . You'd still have a good portion of onion left if the layers representing wives, children ,glory , and even crowns should also have to go. ..The whole nutritious core would still be there.

Jon is, in fact. of good birth, a bastard but highborn who has been groomed for command.

That is why Bowen was pissed when Jon was mad at being the Lord Commander steward, he didn't get at the time the opportunity he was receiving.

Even Alayne, as a bastard, is reference as a maiden of high birth (or something along those lines).

I actually don't believe he resents Jon for actually defending the Wall, if his mind set is keeping the previous structure of the Night's Watch he would be thankful he manage to keep the Wall safe.

And he was never a warrior and I think he was content with his performance base on those circumstances.

I think he believe Mormont's ranging was unsuccessful and his participation was actually something it has to be done.

In the some might/man say/etc. It is obvious that Bowen back those statements but at the same time it is normal that some brothers disagree with Jon's actions. And because Bowen is the chief of the steward he is someone one might choose to express those concerns. At the same time if he doesn't interact with men outside his faction he might be perceiving a more significant discomfort than a real one.

Another thing I notice is Jon actually considering purchasing a slave. I always found odd that since in the Seven Kingdoms slavery is not allow, how could this work?

Is he free after setting foot on Westeros?

Would he be force to say the vows?

Even if he frees the man after teaching some brothers to make glass gardens the poor man doesn't have much choices since he is going to be miles away from everything he would know.

And I highly doubt the owners are going to sell one of his only glassmakers and creating a competing market as seen with the sewing (?) slaves in Meeren.

Since there are a lot of parallels between Daenerys and Jon storylines, I found this part to be interesting.

Obviously nothing comes out of this comment in Jon's POV, but since his time with the free folk should have made him more oppose to slavery?

[Elkrider]

One of the things about Bowen's criticism of Satin is that I'm not sure who he expects to be appointed in his place. What other lads of high birth who could be groomed for command are there? As far as I remember, there haven't been any new recruits from down South since Satin's lot, what with Yoren being killed on the road. And I don't believe that any of them are highborn. Actually, I think Waymar Royce, Sam, and Jon might be the only young men of high birth who joined recently. One's dead, the other's at Oldtown, and the third's grooming for command paid off with the election to LC.

With the war, nobody's looking to send their spare heirs away since the current heir could easily die, and even the men who are sent to take the black as POWs aren't young, like the men at Riverrun who chose to take the black rather than yield to Jaime. One of them is master-at-arms of Riverrun. You don't waste that experience on stewardship. (And they haven't arrived yet in-story, but still). This speaks to how under-served the Night's Watch is recent times, which is a bigger issue itself that Bowen has problems with, what with wilding recruitment and all.

But that doesn't change the fact that there doesn't seem to be anyone who could fit Bowen Marsh's criteria at Castle Black, which further paints him as a fundamentally unappeasable man, no matter what Jon does.

[bemused]

Jon is, in fact. of good birth, a bastard but highborn who has been groomed for command.

That is why Bowen was pissed when Jon was mad at being the Lord Commander steward, he didn't get at the time the opportunity he was receiving.

Even Alayne, as a bastard, is reference as a maiden of high birth (or something along those lines).

I actually don't believe he resents Jon for actually defending the Wall, if his mind set is keeping the previous structure of the Night's Watch he would be thankful he manage to keep the Wall safe.

And he was never a warrior and I think he was content with his performance base on those circumstances.

I think he believe Mormont's ranging was unsuccessful and his participation was actually something it has to be done.

In the some might/man say/etc. It is obvious that Bowen back those statements but at the same time it is normal that some brothers disagree with Jon's actions. And because Bowen is the chief of the steward he is someone one might choose to express those concerns. At the same time if he doesn't interact with men outside his faction he might be perceiving a more significant discomfort than a real one.

Another thing I notice is Jon actually considering purchasing a slave. I always found odd that since in the Seven Kingdoms slavery is not allow, how could this work?

Is he free after setting foot on Westeros?

Would he be force to say the vows?

Even if he frees the man after teaching some brothers to make glass gardens the poor man doesn't have much choices since he is going to be miles away from everything he would know.

And I highly doubt the owners are going to sell one of his only glassmakers and creating a competing market as seen with the sewing (?) slaves in Meeren.

Since there are a lot of parallels between Daenerys and Jon storylines, I found this part to be interesting.

Obviously nothing comes out of this comment in Jon's POV, but since his time with the free folk should have made him more oppose to slavery?

Jon's mother was not known to be highborn. Highborn bastards can usually only have some success in life if their highborn father sees to it ( giving him a small hold ..making a place for him in his household , or getting some other lord to place the bastard in his household , arranging a marriage for a bastard daughter , etc.) But we see the general tone of most comments about bastards is not at all accepting. Sansa , as Alayne, is only treated as a gentlewoman because Petyr has power, and he treats her so. Her "birth" is not considered "good" enough for her to receive such courtesy , otherwise.

In AGOT, I also question the way Bowen gave to both Dareon and Sam a little detail on their assignments, that showed them their positions would utilise the things they're good at ... but not to Jon, who excels in the arms practice yard , and might reasonably have expected to be placed in the rangers.

( Aside - Bowen would be aware that Chett resented his re-assignment and that Jon had suggested it...and aware of any rancour Thorne may feel over the placements)

To Jon , he gives no detail at first , then some detail that echoes the kind of general duties Aemon and Chett had mentioned, when Jon was suggesting Aemon take on Sam.. namely ,supply and housekeeping duties. Bowen could have given some of the same examples Sam gave Jon afterward ( e.g. - take his letters, attend him at meetings, squire for him in battle ) which would have allowed Jon to relate to the posting , but he only says...

" you will run his messages, keep a fire burning in his chambers, change his sheets and blankets daily, and do all else that the Lord Commander might require of YOU.”

... I think this shows not just anger that Jon doesn't appreciate his opportunity ( he left out any details that would help Jon appreciate it ) , but the stressed "YOU" is condescending , conveying that he thinks the post is above Jon.. After speaking to Sam, Jon recognises that he's acted immaturely, and is ashamed.. He knows about the "grooming to lead" process he witnessed with Ned and Robb , but as a bastard , never imagined he would be in such a position, and wouldn't know the NW had a similar practice. Bowen's "do all else that the Lord Commander might require of YOU" also expresses that the LC commands , the subordinate obeys. ...What has happened to that idea of Bowen's in ADWD ?..Or does Bowen think it applies to Jon ,but not to him ?

Bowen should be thankful Jon managed to keep the wall safe , but his behaviour doesn't show it. He immediately removes Jon from duty, and sides with the people who he knows want to kill Jon. He may rationalise his chasing after the Weeper to himself , but not out loud .. But what happened to his " holding the high ground " ? ( which he held , before he chased off ).. and he has to know that the rest of the Watch thinks his decisions were poorly made.

Bowen should express his concerns , but he should also try to help find solutions , and then , whatever his LC decides to do , Bowen should obey his LC's orders. ( and not be portraying them as foolish or treasonous to others )

RE: purchasing a slave - The closest, most plentiful and best glass artisans are in Essos ,with the best glass coming from Myr. Artisans are a class largely relying on slaves . Why would you say Jon would try to acquire one of the owner's only glass workers.? (as if they're exceedingly rare in Myr ?). He'd have to approach a slave school where glass workers are trained, or a glass producer with many workers. Jon doesn't think of getting a master craftsman.

we could buy ’prentice glass-blowers and glaziers in Myr, bring them north, offer them their freedom for teaching their art to some of our recruits.

Apprentices would be in ready supply.

Jon would have been against slavery before he lived with the free folk. Slavery is not accepted in Westeros and Ned exiled Jorah for selling poachers to slavers... But Jon would have to buy them from their owners.. between Jon and the slaves would be an agreement ( like with the free folk) . Jon would buy them free if they agreed to stay with the NW for the winter or until Jon had enough trained glass workers. They could then join the watch if they wished , or could go elsewhwere ( they have skills that are in demand ) or could even return to Essos and sell themselves back into slavery ( if slavery still exists by then) ..as some slaves in Meereen wish to do... It's not illegal to buy slaves in Essos, and in Westeros , they would not be slaves , just under contract to the NW.

[Lummel]

...And Big Liddle?! Wow, I have forgotten that. How come that son of a mountain chieftain is a simple ranger, not even an officer? And why didn't it occur to anybody to send him to his kin to plead for help back when the Night's Watch was expecting Mance's attack?...

Isn't there a mention in a Bran chapter how the clans don't have individual surnames but all just use the clan name? I'm not sure that this is necessarily a well connected person in the power networks of the contemporary clan system!

Good job everyone. Finally got some time to read the chapters, most things have already been covered.

A few notes on Jon VII:

-As Maia noted, I find it odd that Castle Black has no weirwood tree. Do yoy think it's for plot convenience or does it have a more important significance?...

Why not both? It forces the watch to go north of the wall - ie plot convenience, but also underlines that the wall is an arbitrary division (people share the same faith north and south of it) so has a wider significance.

More about Bowen & Co...This is the chapter that made me begin to question Bowen's opinion of Jon going right back to AGoT...

...At the weirwood grove in ADWD , beginning with Jon's silent prayer.. ( the recruits have just uttered , " I shall live and die at my post ." ) ...

Gods of the wood, grant me the strength to do the same, Jon Snow prayed silently. Give me the wisdom to know what must be done and the courage to do it.

...

I like the way the recruits' voices grow stronger when they come to the passage that to my mind, represents the essence of the oath and that immediately following , Jon dwelling on"The shield that guards the realms of men".. implies that Jon has received the wisdom he prayed for .. from within and perhaps the proximity of Ghost ( as others have suggested , his personal weirwood significator)

Thinking of it like Sam's onion , if the shield that guards the realms of men is at the centre ,then working your way out layer by layer , the separate conventions such as "the NW takes no part" would be on the outside and would be the first to be carved away, if mildew and rot had set in . You'd still have a good portion of onion left if the layers representing wives, children ,glory , and even crowns should also have to go. ..The whole nutritious core would still be there.

I think we can doubt Bowen's attitude towards Jon from the start, but equally he's not just a bastard, but a stark bastard

along the lines of the old M&S advert!

. I imagine he would have preferred a non-bastard, but he is tolerable, but now he's rocking the boat and Marsh doesn't want to get wet.

Jon's prayer is interesting. It echoes the serenity prayer :

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

The courage to change the things I can,

And wisdom to know the difference.

But I don't know if this is such a breakthrough moment. He and Stannis already both shared the view that the wildlings must be let through the wall in Jon XI ASOS. Perhaps this gives him the confidence to use Val as a messenger, but it seems that he had already sent out Black Jack Bulwer (if not the other rangers) to contact Tormund (and presumably this is why they were given ravens to send word that they were coming with x thousands of wildlings and to put the kettles on ready for a week on Tuesday).

I go along with your onion image though with the oath at its core and the other traditions and habits as outer skins that can and should perhaps be shed in the best interests of those core values.

...Another thing I notice is Jon actually considering purchasing a slave. I always found odd that since in the Seven Kingdoms slavery is not allow, how could this work?

Is he free after setting foot on Westeros?

Would he be force to say the vows?

Even if he frees the man after teaching some brothers to make glass gardens the poor man doesn't have much choices since he is going to be miles away from everything he would know.

And I highly doubt the owners are going to sell one of his only glassmakers and creating a competing market as seen with the sewing (?) slaves in Meeren.

Since there are a lot of parallels between Daenerys and Jon storylines, I found this part to be interesting.

Obviously nothing comes out of this comment in Jon's POV, but since his time with the free folk should have made him more oppose to slavery?

Good to see you again Ulrik!

How would it work - Jon thinks that he would offer them their freedom: "With enough coin, we could buy 'prentice glassblowers and glaziers in Myr, bring them north, offer them their freedom for teaching their art to some of our recruits." p462 this is odd, they would have to earn their freedom in Jon's mind, they don't automatically become free when they reach Westeros. Perhaps Patchface is an equivalent here seen he was bought as a slave from the free cities - perhaps he still is a slave even though slavery and slave trading apparently don't exist in Westeros. If the apprentices refuse to teach their trade then presumably Jon can still compel them to blow glass since they would be slaves of the watch? It is odd.

One of the things about Bowen's criticism of Satin is that I'm not sure who he expects to be appointed in his place...

But that doesn't change the fact that there doesn't seem to be anyone who could fit Bowen Marsh's criteria at Castle Black, which further paints him as a fundamentally unappeasable man, no matter what Jon does.

Welcome Elkrider! Yes, Marsh is the unconstructive opposition. He doesn't like what is going to happen but doesn't have any better ideas himself. But then Mormont made clear to Tyrion back in AGOT that he was aware of the shortcomings of the officers that he had.

[Mithras]

The Appendix claims that Big Liddle is the eldest son of Torren Liddle.

TORREN LIDDLE, called THE LIDDLE,

DUNCAN LIDDLE, his eldest son, called BIG LIDDLE, a man of the Night’s Watch,

MORGAN LIDDLE, his second son, called MIDDLE LIDDLE,

RICKARD LIDDLE, his third son, called LITTLE LIDDLE,

Morgan Liddle is the one who apologized for calling Asha cunt in his battle lust. It seems like he is the leader of the Liddles and Torren Liddle is not with Stannis. Nor he came to the Wall with Torghen Flint and Brandon Norrey. His whereabouts is a mystery.

The Liddle Bran met might really be The Liddle. He talked in a rather educated manner and he knew all about the Great Ranging and that no one returned yet. Since his eldest son is a ranger, I think The Liddle need not come to the Wall with The Flint and The Norrey because Big Liddle should be (somehow) giving him the latest news as usual. So, he should be doing something important off-screen because he was with Bran back in ASoS and he is too important to do nothing for all this time.

By the way, it is curious that the eldest son takes the black and becomes a ranger. Is it because of a personal grudge against the wildlings? I think it is possible that one of Mance's spearwives was a Liddle and her brother took the black after she was stolen.

[Lummel]

Ah, OK, so Big Liddle is a Big Liddle then.

There are all kinds of reasons why one might end up in the watch. Seeing as he's not senior and wasn't a leadership contender he might be in the watch for criminal reasons.

[bemused]

Lummel.. Yes, I agree Jon would not be thought of as poorly as Satin who (apparently) is not a high-born bastard , while Jon was recognised by Ned, and castle raised. At the same time , I don't think Jon would be as well thought of by Bowen as someone born on the right side of the blanket. Coupled with Bowen's approval of Thorne's "droll" nicknames for the recruits ( and by extension ,his treatment of them), I think Thorne's "Bastard!" and sneering use of "Lord Snow" finds resonance with Bowen. Oh, I don't think he would be as daring in voicing his disapproval to Mormont as he becomes with Jon , but I imagine there must have been the sort of low-level whinging that we see from him early in Jon's command.

Jon must have unwittingly stepped on Bowen's toes by approaching Maester Aemon directly about Sam , just as Thorne sees Jon's helpful advice to the other recruits ( and protection of Sam ) as personally disrespectful and meddling. I can't help but read "who do you think you are ?" in GRRM's use of caps in "YOU" in that Bowen quote.

On a speculative side note - I don't know if I've said this here , before , but... Based on the very unusual use of "pretty" in descriptions of both characters , and references to ship building, among other things, I suspect Satin could be the bastard of Baelor Hightower , which would make his appointment by Jon interesting.

( M&S= Marks and Spencer ? .. Dang! I'm on the west side of the Atlantic , and you make me feel I've missed out on something good.)

It seems Torren Liddle and his sons are being kept under close wraps by GRRM. I expect revelations. I think for now , as much or more is hinted at by what is not said about them than what is... But I wouldn't be surprised to find Big Liddle coming into consideration for First Ranger soon , depending on what happened to Jon's other two parties . He's in his prime and formed part of Jon's guard on the trip to the weirwood grove and when Tormund came through the Wall.

[-Winterfellian-]

I think your choice of the word tragic is accurate. Bowen does have an intentionally sympathetic presentation up until now even though he is painted pretty clearly outside of the proper course of action lines.

I am still struck here by the lack of redeemable points to pick out.

Oh I did not mean to sound as if I am excusing Marsh. To the contrary, one of the things that frustrate me the most about him and his like is his inability to vouch a single alternative along with his negative views. My point was directed mainly to the idea that he is completely unwilling to take a risk something for a something. Though admittedly, I think I was trying to find something sympathetic about Marsh given that I could write pages of how inept and narrow-minded I find him in this chapter

Here, Jon is cognizant of the importance of oaths and traditions, but at the same time he is oblivious to the fact that the more he loosens, bends and finally breaks them, the less he could count on them upholding and protecting his authority and his cause.

Is Jon’s authority as LC derived mostly from tradition? The NW is after all first and foremost a military organization. Mormont did not get the men to follow him into the haunted forest because tradition dictated it so but because the military nature of the organization let them with no room to say “no”

Personally, I do not think Jon is attempting to appeal to traditions such as the importance of letting the men swear to the Gods they choose as means of enhancing his authority. There is really no need for this as the new recruits choosing Jon’s Gods is already a manifestation of the latter’s command and influence. I’ve always felt that what Jon is doing is using traditions as means to allowing the new recruits to experience the sense of community of the organization they will be bound for life but under their own terms, leaving them with a feeling that they retain a sense of individuality.

But if he doesn't have enough food for the living to survive on through the winter, they are just going to fall over each other instead. Particularly once the wildlings find out that Jon's offer was false - he offered to feed them through the winter, but he can't.

By letting the wildlings in he is just changing who is going to die, not really saving more people. Understandably, Marsh et al. don't like the fact that Jon is saving some wildlings at their expense and that of other northeners.

I don't necessarily disagree with this sentiment, but unlike you I actually find more to commend than to criticize in Jon’s resolution to take the choice in his hands rather than sit around with his head in the snow or take a leaf from Melissandre and leave the wildings as doomed (by the way, accepting they are doom is short of accepting the NW is doomed).

To quote Aemon sometimes there is no happy choice, only one less grievous than the other. Whatever Jon decides to do the risk is great either way. There will be consequences intended or unintended no matter what. Jon makes a choice in favor of action rather than passivity.

So how to determined which will be the less grievous path? Jon’s decision to let the wildings through seems like the soundest one to me. What makes the difference for me is knowledge, something on which seems very much focused in this chapter. Yes, the food issue is a major problem, but is not a supernatural problem. That is, this is a problem with “human” solution so to speak and one that allows them to work on their terms. Jon can make use of Marsh’s excellent counting skills to determine the amount of food available for each wilding that they let through and come up with a time frame with which to work over solving the problem for example. Not that this is a solution but is the opposite of working completely blind.

This is not case with the others and their wights where the NW has absolutely no way of knowing their numbers, how and when they are going to attack, what do they want etc. and with little means to find it out despite Jon’s best efforts.

Jon's contraversual appointments - is it really a good idea to alienate his officers by making them when he has a much bigger fish to fry with his wildling plans? And to make them feel like they have no input whatsoever in his decisions? It would have been a better idea to throw them a bone on less important issues, IMHO.

Is Jon making them feel as if they have no input or is it that they don’t actually have any input whatsoever beyond asking the Crone to lend his lamp of wisdom to Jon? Not even in the smallest matter like for example Jon’s steward, where they are incapable to at least submitting a name for Jon’s consideration.

If they are not providing any such input, then how is Jon to act towards them? He is already sharing his plans with the officers and even tolerates them to disagree with him, now is up to them to come up with alternatives in case they do not share Jon’s views.

Jon as LC cannot submit every one of his plans for Marsh’s revision and approval until he can come up with one that suits the latter. This will create an unbalance in the chain of command as Jon is the LC and Marsh is merely the head steward.