Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 5! (DwD)

[Julia H.]

Excellent analysis, Ragnorak.

A horn of mead was never far from his hand, so the spittle he sprayed when making threats was sweet with honey.

A splendid metaphor for the duality of enmity and friendship here.

Jon let it all wash over him.

Jon is implicitly likened to a rock, as the tide washes over it but the rock won't budge. Jon has patience if necessary but he never digresses from the matter at hand – he neither threatens Tormund nor tries to justify himself. He also understands the psychology of Tormund's bellowing just as he is aware of the honey in the spittle of threats.

The oath again...

I am the guard who opened the gates and let the foe march through.

He is anything but certain, but I guess that is a good sign. People who never have doubts either don't do anything or are simply dangerous. The vow is a constant reference point for him.

Val...

Fire Eater, I love the Valkyrie symbolism, but let me add a few observations of a more down-to-earth nature.

All that Valkyrie white and splendor and loveliness is probably not easily achieved in the forest, and Val must have taken special care and a lot of time before she was ready to meet Jon again. Ghost is already on her side, apparently.

It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

"Have you been trying to steal my wolf?"

Ghost symbolizes Jon and the heart tree, so the question can be interpreted as whether Val has been trying to steal Jon's heart. Val does not deny the accusation.

So Jon's first reaction to her involves the idea of stealing. Although a woman stealing a man is not exactly in accordance with the old wildling traditions, Tormund picks up on the idea immediately, suggesting that Jon should steal Val. (He likes playing the matchmaker, that great bag of wind.) Jon basically admits to himself (and for the second time now) that it is a scenario he would like – but then he reminds himself that he has already made his choice.

"Toregg is welcome to her," he announced. "I took a vow."

He probably doesn't realize how outrageous this may sound to Val – she has done her best to impress him and the guy doesn't even deign to pay her a simple compliment. Instead, he worries about his wolf first, and then he calmly says someone else can have her. So Val pats the knife on her hip and suggests a way to make it easier for Lord Crow to keep his vows. Despite the playful tone, she must be genuinely furious at this moment.

Yet, as they ride back to the Wall together, Jon says,

"I've had the top floor made ready for you, my lady."

He has been waiting for her, and he has a new place for her ready to be occupied. These words may suggest more than what Jon may realize.

"A giant as protector? Even Dalla could not boast of that."

It could be a reference to Mors Umber, on the one hand, but, on the other hand, the "giant" can also mean strength and importance.

By drawing a parallel between herself and Dalla, Val indirectly draws a parallel between Jon and Mance (i.e. Mance did not give Dalla a giant protector).

She sounded as if she were talking to a dog.

In GoT, Ned gives his sons a warning about direwolves:

"These are not dogs to beg for treats or slink off at a kick. A direwolf will rip a man's arm off his shoulder as easily as a dog will kill a rat."

There are several comparisons made between dogs and wolves in the novels (cf. Sandor), and here again, we have a "dog", Ser Patrek, who readily kneels and pays false compliments to Val, in stark contrast to Jon the wolf, who won't do either.

Whereas the lion is associated with rough power, and the stag (I think) symbolizes the constant fight for mating rights, and the dog stands for servility, the wolf is often a symbol of independence. As Jon is growing into the role of the Stark, he more and more often "denies subjugation to kingly authority" (Ragnorak) first in thought, and then, on the top of the Wall, openly.

Ragnorak, I very much enjoyed the analysis of the discussion on the Wall and of how Jon emerges as a King in all but name.

Jon openly declares what the vow means to him. Marsh has clearly never tried to understand the words. Nor has he thought of the wildlings as men.

A question about the hostages...

"... do you have the belly to do what needs be done?"

"Tormund Giantsbane knows better than try me... I am still a son of Eddard Stark."

The practice goes back to generations of Starks. As The Norrey says, "... whose sires displeased the Kings o' Winter... Those came home shorter by a head." Balon Greyjoy never "tried" Eddard Stark in this respect. Theon seems to be convinced that Ned would have killed him if his father had dared to misbehave.

So Eddard never had to prove that he had the belly to kill children, and it was a good thing, given his very strong opposition to the idea. Jon has inherited this principle. Yet, if a King of Winter fails to do the horrible deed, the practice will not ensure peace any more and all the people will suffer. It would come back to the question that Stannis faced with Edric Storm (and others) – can you destroy an innocent life to save thousands? We know the answer Davos gave to the question. Ned actually lost the game of thrones and died because he wanted to save Cersei's children from Robert's wrath. Would Ned have killed Theon? Would Jon have the belly to kill his hostages?

He must at least appear to have the belly to do it, that is clear. (Cf. Dany in a similar situation.) And perhaps the fact that he "let it all wash over him" when Tormund called him all those things, without protesting or trying to justify himself, will stand as a warning that he can be strong in the face of emotions as well.

Thanks, Ragnorak, for pointing out the Citizenship in a Republic speech. Yes, the connection is quite clear.

"I believe that a man must be a good patriot before he can be, and as the only possible way of being, a good citizen of the world."

Ser Axell's cynicism, greed and lack of principles make him a man of the world, nothing else. Jon's commitment and loyalty to the Night's Watch and what it stands for enables him to become a champion of the realms of all men.

[Ragnorak]

...

Selyse

The previous exchanges have been typical, but courteous enough if not cold. This time it breaks down in outright hostility and threats. Jon went there to report and perhaps blunt the Selyse's reaction. Jon went there observing all the courtesies and even got Val to kneel. The problem is much to fundamental to be overcome by courtesies. Jon was thinking in terms of manning the Wall. Selyse was thinking in terms of procuring followers for her husband. Nay way you cut it this is not what happened. What Selyse sees is Jon bringing Val in to defy her and when she tells him her objections he basically tells her to deal with it. The actual terms of the agreement will become known to her and she will know that Jon both has hostages and is giving a seat to Tormund, which I think there is little doubt she will see as grant of lands, rather than a place to winter. Val is also being removed from Selyse's custody and taken into her own tower guarded by no less than a giant. I wonder what Selyse will make of that. It is not unlikely that her uncle shared his beliefs about Jon's intentions and Val herself compares herself to her sister. There can be no doubt I think that in her eyes Jon is building up her powerbase, which is true, despite of how Jon intends to use it.

I have a hard time taking Selyse seriously and paying attention to what she does, but there is merit to the idea that she is staying at Castle Black to keep an eye and if necessary counter a potential threat to her husbands rule. Originally Jon and the Watch were at Stannis mercy. At this stage Jon may already be able to call on more manpower that Stannis has at his disposal.

I think the trade off is clear. Jon has traded an enemy from beyond the Wall, for enemies on this side.

We have to infer the political dynamic going on inside Selyse's head and her small circle of power, but I tend to agree with your assessment. The other dynamic we need to infer is Mel who is absent this chapter and we also need to speculate on how much interaction goes on behind the scenes between Mel and Selyse (which might be none.)

Selyse clearly views the conversion to the Red God as synonymous with serving her husband on top of her heavy Southron bias that seems to have no room for Northern cultural clues. A giant learned, and others took the time to teach him, to kneel and speak to the queen with the specific respect of acknowledging her with all the meanings inherent in kneeling despite the hugely negative association with "kneelers" north of the Wall. Selyse missed all of that and all of the opportunities it offered to insert herself into a queenly role with these potential new followers. Absent religious conversion I doubt there's any pleasing her, but that still leaves a whole spectrum of displeasing her to consider. Jon's not including giving up the old gods is about as displeasing as you can get with Selyse without starting open hostilities.

How does Mel view this choice? She's absent here. Jon has been asking her for visions of Stannis and visions of Mance and she has been empty handed so far. Alys was supposed to be Arya accompanied by Mance and the key to getting Jon under her thumb. She claimed to Jon that this ruby gave her power over Mance and that is clearly not the case. What is she thinking and what is she plotting? Jon includes the Septon in the meeting on top of the Wall but not Mel. It seems that he's trying to address the trio that expressed anger over the Wildling policy earlier, but does Mel know that? Does it look to Mel like her role as a religious figure is a lesser one than a useless drunk who advocated for Jon's death? Mel told Jon he need not fear words from Stannis only his silences. Is the same true for her?

I'm not sure how much Selyse knows about Stannis' plans but Mel knows all of them.

“Sire, some claim that you mean to grant lands and castles to Rattleshirt and the Magnar of Thenn.”

“Who told you that?”

The talk was all over Castle Black. “If you must know, I had the tale from Gilly.”

Jon objected to this and said "No" to Stannis yet he just granted lands and a castle to the Magnar (at least it was him in the eyes of virtually everyone else) and is about to give one of one of the same forts he denied Stannis to Tormund as his seat. Selyse might not know any of this but Mel certainly does.

There's also this exchange, also from back in Jon I ADwD, where the king's laws are clearly stated to mean Jon must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle.

“Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?” Jon waited for an answer. None came.

“Lord Eddard was no friend to me, but he was not without some sense. He would have given me these castles.”

Never. “I cannot speak to what my father might have done. I took an oath, Your Grace. The Wall is mine.”

“For now. We will see how well you hold it.” Stannis pointed at him. “Keep your ruins, as they mean so much to you. I promise you, though, if any remain empty when the year is out, I will take them with your leave or without it. And if even one should fall to the foe, your head will soon follow. Now get out.”

Aside from the significance of the oath (which comes up in full multiple times this chapter) it is a further divergence from the will of Stannis. Would Mel hear of this exchange and would she connect it to the earlier one as a defiance of Stannis? Would she even care or is she really more concerned with her power than with that wielded by Stannis? I think there's a lot of reason and a lot of room to speculate about what might be going on with Selyse and Mel in reaction to Jon's choices here.

Gopd job, Ragnorak

As to Val's response to Ser Patrek, add that Jarl is described as Val's "latest pet," I think it can be surmised that Val is used to this kind of attention from members of the opposite sex. Jon is the one who is different in that he doesn't try to court her favor or impress her.

That one has more hair on her chin than I have between my legs

:laugh:

Jon's Peace Agreement

Jon let it wash all over him. He never raised his own voice or answered threat with threat, but neither did he give more ground than he'd been prepared to give.

Jon like with Tycho, shows good negotiation skills, and gets the deal he needs without compromising his principles. Jon was pragmatic enough to insist upon hostages from the wildlings just as Baelor Breakspear insisted upon hostages from Blackfyre supporters.

Val the Valkyrie

Val's name may be derived from Valkyries, mythological warrior women who were portrayed as blue-eyed, blondes and wore pure white robes, like Val's clothes when she comes with Tormund. They were associated with wolves and ravens (Bran and Ghost and Bloodraven). They worked in service to Odin the one-eyed god associated with ravens, one of Bloodraven's mythological references. They determined who lived and who died in battle, and with the kiss of death, determined who went to Valhalla to prepare for Ragnarok, marching with Odin against the frost giants, just as Westeros is in a Ragnarok situation with Jon siding with BR against the Others.

Val Clues

<snip>

Good stuff on Val. Martin Is definitely teasing at something or several somethings here. He gives a rather detailed description of her clothing as she emerges from the trees with Ghost and then Martin brings up those same clothes again with the sarcastic exchange about getting blood on them since they were a gift from her sister. It is a small smack upside the head in case the reader missed the more than average words dedicated in the first description.

I suppose wearing clothes that came from Dalla makes her choice of garb a bit of political theater too in selling this deal.

Excellent analysis, Ragnorak.

A horn of mead was never far from his hand, so the spittle he sprayed when making threats was sweet with honey.

A splendid metaphor for the duality of enmity and friendship here.

Jon let it all wash over him.

Jon is implicitly likened to a rock, as the tide washes over it but the rock won't budge. Jon has patience if necessary but he never digresses from the matter at hand – he neither threatens Tormund nor tries to justify himself. He also understands the psychology of Tormund's bellowing just as he is aware of the honey in the spittle of threats.

The oath again...

I am the guard who opened the gates and let the foe march through.

He is anything but certain, but I guess that is a good sign. People who never have doubts either don't do anything or are simply dangerous. The vow is a constant reference point for him.

<snip>

Thank you. Glad you enjoyed it.

I agree that the sweet with honey threats is wonderful imagery to illustrate the dynamic between Tormund and Jon. I also liked this:

Tears shone in his eyes. “He wasn’t much of a man, truth be told, but he’d been me little boy once, and I loved him.”

Jon put a hand on his shoulder. “I am so sorry.”

“Why? Weren’t your doing. There’s blood on your hands, aye, same as mine. But not his.”

It is a touching moment that speaks to the losses both these men have endured and the responsibility that each bears in the form of blood on their hands, yet also a willingness to not be blinded by past losses and move forward. I think this stands in contrast to the Watchmen demanding the Wildlings be disarmed. Tormund separates the deaths of two of his sons in making a deal with Jon, yet Marsh can't separate the Weeper from the thousands of other Wildlings.

I also like Ned's dog treat line. Jon described the fire during the wedding as a dog jumping for a treat last chapter.

The famous quote from Citizenship in a Republic is about the man in the arena which probably has some thematic relevance to Jon as well as ASOIAF as a whole.

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

Jon is the man in the arena and Marsh and Co. are the critics. I think this also applies to Dany where despite plenty of room for criticism in DwD I don't think Martin's portrayal of her shortcomings rises to a level of outweighing the importance of her stepping up to be the woman in the slavery arena. Doran Martell's Water Gardens lesson is about at what point it becomes worth it to become the "man in the arena." Jaime is haunted more by his refusal to become the man in the arena outside Rhaella's door than he is by his choice to step in the arena and kill Aerys. It is the bloody hands of responsibility vs. the blind adherence to some oath or law that allows for clean hands.

The ravens and doves metaphor is in many ways about critics. Ravens are hated and misunderstood while doves are seen from the outside as pure and godly. It portrays the moral choice as stepping into the arena knowing the critics will hate and condemn you and that you'll never exit the arena without blood on your hands. Even Jon's exchange with Yarwyck subtly touches on this distinction. Yarwyck phrases his desire as "rather have them dead" and not "kill them." There's a hint of clean hands through inaction in his phrasing which Jon deliberately turns around into the personal responsibility of "would you condemn them all to die?" The next step in that moral escalation is to wield the sword oneself as we saw Ned challenge Robert to do with Lady and Dany after issuing the condemnation. So this exchange atop the Wall also has shades of First Men justice not only with the question of Jon's belly but also with the fate of the Wildlings.

[Mithras]

Good work, Ragnorak.

Carrion crow

He called Jon Snow a craven, a liar, and a turncloak, cursed him for a black-hearted buggering kneeler, a robber, and a carrion crow,

My flesh will feed the wolves and carrion crows, she [Dany] thought sadly,

Jon is called a carrion crow and Dany says that her flesh will feed the wolves and carrion crows. I think this foreshadows that when she comes North with her army to face Jon, he will prove his heritage and Dany will kneel before him. So, Dany’s armies will be Jon’s to command.

The wildlings vs. the mountain clans

Twice he flung his drinking horn at Jon’s head, though only after he had emptied it. Tormund was not the sort of man to waste good mead.

Neither Flint nor Norrey had turned their cups over to spill their wine upon the floor. That might betoken a certain acceptance. Or perhaps they just hate to waste good southron wine. They will not have tasted much of it up in those stony hills of theirs.

Another similarity between the wildlings and the mountain clans.

“All the wealth o’ the wildlings,” said The Norrey. “That should buy you a bushel o’ barleycorn. Two bushels, might be.”

Is it me or The Norrey is too precise with his guess even before seeing the wealth of the wildlings?

King vs. LC

Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall.

“Gold for gruel, and boys … a cruel price. Whatever happened to that sweet lad I knew?”

They made him lord commander.

Sam, you sweet fat fool, you played me a cruel jape when you made me lord commander. A lord commander has no friends.

“Kings have no friends,” Stannis said bluntly, “only subjects and enemies.”

Jon acts and feels like the king although he does not notice that. I think Jon will be chosen the king by a Great Council and Sam will be the one plotting behind the curtains in his favor. He will make Jon king just like he made him LC. So, Jon will be crowned similar to Egg and this time Aemon’s pupil will pull the strings.

Wildling to the bone

“Do that, Your Grace, and we will rise again at the first chance,” Val promised. “Rise with blades in hand.”

“I do not approve, Lord Commander.”

“Your Grace.” Jon knelt again. This time Val did not join him. “I am sorry my actions have displeased you. I did as I thought best.”

Once outside and well away from the queen’s men, Val gave vent to her wroth.

This was a Val that Jon had never seen before.

This sudden change in Val is similar to how Ygritte used to be.

Jon caught her wrist. “What if the man who stole you drank too much?” he insisted. “What if he was brutal or cruel?” He tightened his grip to make a point. “What if he was stronger than you, and liked to beat you bloody?”

“I’d cut his throat while he slept. You know nothing, Jon Snow.” Ygritte twisted like an eel and wrenched away from him.

I know one thing. I know that you are wildling to the bone. It was easy to forget that sometimes, when they were laughing together, or kissing. But then one of them would say something, or do something, and he would suddenly be reminded of the wall between their worlds.

Val is also a wildling to the bone, something Jon was reminded of suddenly. We saw how improper her actions were with Selyse. She threatened her while Jon was trying to walk on ice. She did not kneel with Jon before leaving and when they were out, she was wroth.

Death

“Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close.”

Melara’s death was Cersei. She pushed her to a well.

He [Victarion] turned to the black man. “Did the Vole speak true? You saw my death?”

“Your death is with us now, my lord. Give me your hand.”

I am not sure about Victarion’s death. Since Moqorro healed his hand, then the person who let his wound fester cannot be called his death. Besides, when Moqorro told this to Victarion, only the Dusky woman was present in the cabin. Yes, she hissed like a snake when she saw Moqorro but after Victarion was healed, he had the maester killed.

So, who will be Victarion’s death? Dusky Woman, Moqorro or the dragonhorn that is probably in Victarion’s cabin? And Why did Moqorro have the master killed and the Dusky Woman spared?

There is also something about the nature of visions. If Moqorro saw Victarion’s death by poison and found his way to Iron Victory to heal him (which he did), then will that future he had seen no longer exist? Is it possible to avert or escape a prophecy?

Jon shook her hand away. “She is not dead.”

“She is. Her mother cannot see it. Nor you, it seems. Yet death is there.”

I bet the death Val mentions is not greyscale nor Selyse but Patchface. Maybe she was not able to sense that. When they retreat to Nightfort, Patchface might transform into a monster and do something terrible to pass into the bloody history of the Nightfort. I take Jon as Perseus and Shireen as Andromeda. So, Patchface becomes Cetus, the sea monster.

Ned’s lesson vs. Qhorin’s lesson

He might have known them anyway, just by the way they stood. A good lord must know his men, his father had once told him and Robb, back at Winterfell.

“If I had needed her dead, I would have left her with Ebben, or done the thing myself.”

“Then why did you command it of me?”

“I did not command it. I told you to do what needed to be done, and left you to decide what that would be.” Qhorin stood and slid his longsword back into its scabbard. “When I want a mountain scaled, I call on Stonesnake. Should I need to put an arrow through the eye of some foe across a windy battlefield, I summon Squire Dalbridge. Ebben can make any man give up his secrets. To lead men you must know them, Jon Snow. I know more of you now than I did this morning.”

“And if I had slain her?” asked Jon.

“She would be dead, and I would know you better than I had before.”

It is strange that Robb was betrayed and killed by the men he should have known better. And similarly Jon will be stabbed by some of the men he will see soon.

One of the first things Qhorin did was to test Jon and see what kind of a man he is, so that he would make proper use of him. Did we ever see Jon testing his men similarly?

“You need not trust a man to use him.” Else how could I make use of all of you?

Ned made use of Roose but he never trusted him. Robb kept Roose away and rued it. What could have Jon done with his untrustworthy lot?

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice

Val Clues

Patchface's line comes from when Jon and Val walk into the room together. In "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" as the dwarfs thought Snow White was dead when she was in a coma, and she was kept in a glass coffin (Jon sees ice scraping off the Wall and thinks of glass gardens). Jon, a prince until he is crowned, may wake up from his coma after the Ides of Marsh the moment Val, called the "wildling princess," kisses him. Also, add in that Valkyries gave the kiss of death to fallen warriors to enter Valhalla.

And Jon thought, “Ice,” she said, “and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel.” His sword hand flexed. The wind was rising.

“We need to dig those cells out.”

“Ten stewards and ten spades should do it,” said Marsh.

“Use Wun Wun too.”

“As you command.”

“Those cells will be buried again by morning. We’d best move the prisoners before they smother.”

I think Jon will be put to the ice cell after he is stabbed. His blood will freeze and that way he will stop bleeding.

Bowen might want to hold his body until the Boltons arrive and show it to them as a sign of their obedience.

Val will smuggle Jon out of the ice cell by using Wun Wun. As a Jesus reference, Bowen might want to check the ice cell after three days and find the cell empty. There might also be a Jon-loyalist wildling host coming to the CB as well as the uprising among the NW due to Jon's assassination. So, Bowen’s conspirators might flee the CB. When Caesar was killed, the senators who killed him could not stay in Rome due to uproar among the population.

[The Sleeper]

Selyse clearly views the conversion to the Red God as synonymous with serving her husband on top of her heavy Southron bias that seems to have no room for Northern cultural clues. A giant learned, and others took the time to teach him, to kneel and speak to the queen with the specific respect of acknowledging her with all the meanings inherent in kneeling despite the hugely negative association with "kneelers" north of the Wall. Selyse missed all of that and all of the opportunities it offered to insert herself into a queenly role with these potential new followers. Absent religious conversion I doubt there's any pleasing her, but that still leaves a whole spectrum of displeasing her to consider. Jon's not including giving up the old gods is about as displeasing as you can get with Selyse without starting open hostilities.

How does Mel view this choice? She's absent here. Jon has been asking her for visions of Stannis and visions of Mance and she has been empty handed so far. Alys was supposed to be Arya accompanied by Mance and the key to getting Jon under her thumb. She claimed to Jon that this ruby gave her power over Mance and that is clearly not the case. What is she thinking and what is she plotting? Jon includes the Septon in the meeting on top of the Wall but not Mel. It seems that he's trying to address the trio that expressed anger over the Wildling policy earlier, but does Mel know that? Does it look to Mel like her role as a religious figure is a lesser one than a useless drunk who advocated for Jon's death? Mel told Jon he need not fear words from Stannis only his silences. Is the same true for her?

I'm not sure how much Selyse knows about Stannis' plans but Mel knows all of them.

From her POV I would say that Mel is not particularly interested in the political maneuvering that occurs. It also sees that way how she never offers opinions even though she is always present when Stannis is around. I don't know if she thinks it is beneath her or simply not her concern or maybe even thinks of it as an unnecessary distraction. The way she works is to dictate the actions of people she might consider influential or for whatever reason integral to the good fight. Ironically enough I don't think she particularly cares if they are believers or not. Stannis certainly is not a believer but he has accepted the role of Azor Ahai he has bestowed her. Likewise she knows that Davos is not a believer, but it is enough for her to know that he is utterly loyal to Stannis. Selyse or any among her circle would not seem to fall in that particular category and Mel seems to devote to them the bare minimum of her time. She is also less than concerned about what happens to wildlings. I would have to disagree with you about Mance. He was bound to her in a way. The glamor she cast on him was the one thing keeping him alive at the Wall.

As for Jon he is in generally distrustful towards her. He would be unlikely to call her into his councils. After all this is first and foremost, a matter of the Watch and the clansmen are invited because their lands will be affected.

[bemused]

Wow! Sundays are so busy for me ..I've been pecking at this on my notepad intermittently all day and now I see there are a number of posts I haven't read yet. I'll have to catch up after..

Ragnorak... Nice summary! I agree on the theatrics of Jon's lack of a tail and his meeting atop the wall. There's so much to discuss , but I'm starting with...

Jon ,Val and Tormund

I could go on about these three at great length, but will try to keep it brief ( Har! ).

Tormund is tied to mead continually in the books . He consumes it in quantity himself and offers it to Jon on important occasions . Jon always accepts and takes more than just polite sips.

Mead represents / bestows, among many things , knowledge and the wisdom to use it ( and therefore ,truth ) , poetic inspiration ( the power in words - important in important negotiations), fertility ( in the broad sense as well as the personal) , and so much more. It's a gift from the gods (from Odin , specifically ,in the Norse religion) and therefore a gift fit for kings. We don't see Tormund passing it around to all and sundry ( though I'm sure he must have shared mead with others for various purposes ), but we see him offer it to Jon repeatedly ...very notably , on the way to Mance's tent at the end of ASoS, and when Tormund's people come through the wall . On that occasion, he presents Jon with a whole skin ( his to keep ). It's a sincere gesture but also, speaking of theatrics , it's in view of all the free folk , and Jon drinks deep. ( Passing a torch ? )

I'm sure Tormund knows what he's about on these occasions, and though Jon doesn't fully understand, he instinctively reacts appropriately and with goodwill.

Though we don't see Jon drink on this occasion, the mead is amusingly shared in another way..

That day Tormund bellowed often and loudly. He roared, he shouted, he slammed his fist

against the table so hard that a flagon of water overturned and spilled. A horn of mead was never far from his hand, so the spittle he sprayed when making threats was sweet with honey. He called Jon Snow a craven, a liar, and a turncloak, cursed him for a black-hearted buggering kneeler, a robber, and a carrion crow, accused him of wanting to fuck the free folk up the arse. Twice he flung his drinking horn at Jon’s head, though only after he had emptied it. Tormund was not the sort of man to waste good mead. Jon let it all wash over him. He never raised his own voice nor answered threat with threat, but neither did he give more ground than he had come prepared to give.

Jon let it all wash over him. ..The threats and the mead ... I like the comparison between this scene and Theon's memory of Ramsay as Reek .. a Reek with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips,sweet as honey....In that case there was no honey . The lies were sweet ( not the truth), the intent murderous and destructive . ...Here ,there's honey in the mead that sprays from Tormund's lips ( truth and wisdom are in Tormund) , the threats are misleading .. and the intent from Tormund and Jon is sincerely for the common good.

Bloody hands (!) come up here, too , and again intent seems to make all the difference. After Tormund tells Jon about the death of his sons...

Jon put a hand on his shoulder. “I am so sorry.”

“Why? Weren’t your doing. There’s blood on your hands, aye, same as mine. But not his.” (his son's blood)

By comparison to Ramsay and some others with bloody hands, the blood on Tormund's and Jon's hands didn't get there as a result of betrayal , or satisfying sadistic urges ... and as with Alys, there's no cause for bloodfeud between Tormund and Jon.

Jon is designated "The Thief" again by Tormund , when he relinquishes his armbands ( and there may be some extra meaning in this if the armbands were passed to Tormund as an earned inheritance denoting leadership and not just an ordinary memento of his father ).. Similar to being given Longclaw by Mormont ?

Had those from my father and him from his. Now they’re yours, you thieving black bastard.

He then encourages Jon to steal Val , jokes that Toregg might steal her if Jon's not quick about it , but ends by warning Toregg off... I think he has reason for wanting Jon and Val to pair off ( beyond mere 'shipping.)

There's more about Tormund that I'm purposely leaving out ( for now) because I want to move on to Val and Jon.

Val's attire has been mentioned before , so I just want to stress that it may well be ritual garb. ( Too fine for everyday use. ) Here Jon thinks that she and Ghost look like they belong together and he has often connected Ghost to the old gods - even thought that Ghost belongs to them - so by association, I think we're meant to understand that , in a sense ,Val does, too... And her weirwood face pin only accentuates the connection.

Like Tormund , she gives us more of Jon the Thief , and like Tormund , I think there's serious suggestion under the surface of her banter.

Val patted the long bone knife on her hip. “Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night

he dares. Once he’s been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him.”

Jon's welcome to "steal" into her bed ..( anytime , Jon!).. Given her other interactions with Jon, I don't think he'd seriously be in any danger of gelding from her... But he would have to be "gelded" for his vows to be easy to keep.. OK, this would not be true of any of the " sword in the darkness ,watcher on the walls , shield that guards" elements of the oath. - Anyone , man woman ,child , eunuch can adhere to those , if it's in their hearts ...Gelding certainly would make it easier to comply with all the " wives and children" bits , but under the surface, if we think of the way we broadly use gelded or emasculated , then her quip is confirms to the reader ( this reader, anyway) that there are things in the oath that will cause him to be ineffectual in present and future circumstances ... if too closely adhered to .

It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely ....

She may not be a princess, but she would make a worthy wife for any lord ....

They are all convinced she is a princess. Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.

Jon is obviously attracted , and I don't think Val or Tormund take his - “Toregg

is welcome to her,” ... “I took a vow.” - as his final word on the matter.

“How did you fare with Tormund?” asked Val. “Ask me a year from now. The hard part still

awaits me. The part where I convince mine own to eat this meal I’ve cooked for them. None of them are going to like the taste, I fear.”

“Let me help.”

“You have. You brought me Tormund.”

“I can do more.”

Val's statement that she can help Jon when the topic is him selling the agreement to the NW , says to me that she's not talking about convincing them through conversation. As a wildling herself, there's not a lot such help could be, apart from advising Jon in who to approach and how to approach them ...and as a wildling , she should not have the kind of understanding , insights or experience needed... unless she has some prophetic or far-seeing abilities.

Although her meeting with Ser Patrek is hilarious , it shows she is used to being shown some deference ..just not of the foolish variety.( and flattery doesn't sway her.) She's courteous but firm with Selyse and her own genuine assurance and dignity contrasts with Selyse's pretensions. ( We know how inconsequential Selyse really is, because we know how Stannis treats her. However ,I do agree that she's dangerous, because she's looking to snatch some respect of her own.)

One last little comparison for now... In the last chapter, Jon sees Selyse's party as a duck and ducklings -

Queen Selyse nodded, took her daughter by the hand, and permitted him to lead them from the stables.Ser Axell, the Braavosi banker, and the rest of her party followed, like so many ducklings done up in wool and fur. ....

....The royal ducklings fell in behind them as they made their way across the yard, marching to the music of the bells on the fool’s hat.

Here , Tormund makes the same analogy about himself and his people -

“ ...I’ll make sure there’s no fighting, nor rushing at your bloody gate. Nice and orderly we’ll be, ducklings in a row. And me the mother duck. Har!”

I think Tormund makes the better mother duck of the two , being more caring of the real needs of his ducklings and what is the safe path to take.

[OnlyOne]

Welcome Dusto :cheers: and great observation! I hadn't thought of that and you are right. Jon grew up playing in the Winterfell vaults- he knows what it "should" feel like at different depths below ground.

Actually, Winterfell sits directly above hot springs therefore it cannot be compared to how a cave operates.

[The Sleeper]

I was going through Bran's chapters in ASOS and the part where he was trekking north across the mountains. The chapter mentions that the clans were aware of Bran and his little party and upon coming across a member of clan Liddle they state their intent to reach the Wall. The logical conclusion on behalf of the clansmen would be that they did not seek to cross it, but seek refuge there. A relatively short time later Jon becomes lord commander of the Watch. Now wouldn't it be reasonable to think that the clans assume that Jon has his little brother stashed somewhere? More than it seems reasonable that they could think that Jon's moves aim at restoring him to power and a good reason for the clan chiefs to attend Jon.

[bemused]

The Sleeper.. No, I can't say that sounds too reasonable , all things considered..

First off , they're aware that the Stark who had any real authority in the NW at the time the Liddle met Bran ( Benjen) had been missing/presumed dead for some time.They're aware that Mormont led a large ranging north and was himself missing, and more ominous yet, the ravens he took with him had returned sans messages.

It seems reasonable that they would have heard that Jon had been appointed personal steward to Mormont , but since that means he'd squire for Mormont in battle, they'd know Jon was with him. ... So they'd know that Bran would have no personal connection at the Wall ,at the time he was moving north , yet they didn't try to stop him. ( They'd have no way of knowing that Jon had gone over to Mance and was scaling the wall with Styr's party. )

A second direwolf at the Wall would be hard to disguise ( to not to mention Hodor , who also goes part and parcel with Bran ) and they'd know Bran had not been farmed out to them , and probably not to the Umbers... (before Tycho, Jon wouldn't have had an overseas option available to him ,if he needed to hide a family member )

I do accept that the GNC exists.. and much of the reasoning that convinces me, is that it's the most logical explanation for this kind of illogical behaviour on the part of so many supposed extreme Stark loyalists.

But I think Flint and Norrey know that Jon is unaware of the existence of the GNC, and they probably know (perhaps via Big Liddle) that as far as Jon is aware, both his younger brothers are dead. That's the general understanding outside of the clans and the GNC.

I think that they know that it's Jon the GNC hopes to have as The Stark in Winterfell ..and that they're at the Wall to assess him as a leader , and want to know what his relationship is to Stannis , since he sent Stannis to them. ( It may be some cause for concern , because I don't think the clans' or the GNC's ideal outcome is to have Stannis in charge of the North.)

[Julia H.]

Ragnorak...

While I made the connection between Jon and the man in the arena, I did not continue this train of thought. I really like the way you point out how other characters relate to this metaphor. (In Dany's case, the "arena" is quite literally there.)

The "have them dead" and "condemn them all to die" (great catch!) distinction refers back to the quarrel between Ned and Robert. Ned called murder a murder even in war, while Robert was rather relieved that someone else had done the dirty job for him.

The raven - dove contrast makes me think of the Night's Watch versus the Kingsguard. Black brothers and noble knights in white. I wonder... Could it be a relevant comparison?

Tormund's grief is indeed a touching moment. Tormund brings up the family theme in this chapter, first as he is grieving for his sons, then with the image of Tormund the mother duck.

Bemused...

Yes, Tormund is a much better "mother" for his ducklings than Selyse can be for hers. It is interesting that Tormund is referred to as "mother", while Selyse is described as having a beard. Apparently, some roles are reversed here, and probably not only in relation to Selyse and Tormund. (Cf. Jon is kneeling in front of Selyse when, by rights, it should be the other way round.)

Selyse's coldness seems especially harsh to me when she talks about the "little monster".

"... that squalling babe that keeps us awake at night."

I know Selyse is frustrated with motherhood, but still... She does have a child herself, and the presence of a motherless and fatherless baby should arouse at least some tender feelings in her - but no. Or, if she wanted to be just civil to Val as the girl is introduced to her, saying a few kind words about the baby would be the surest and easiest way to promote goodwill and understanding between two women. But she misses that opportunity, too.

By contrast, Jon's words on the same topic are probably as affectionate as a Stark Lord Commander's can ever get.

"Twice as big as when you left us, and thrice as loud. When he wants the teat, you can hear him wail in Eastwatch."

Jon doesn't complain about the noise as Selyse does. He is talking about the baby, who is growing and who has a healthy appetite and strong lungs.

Then Jon gets quite upset by Val's prediction that Shireen is a "dead girl". Shireen is no one to him, only the ugly child of an annoying couple who can't stop threatening him, and yet, he notices that "She seems a sweet girl" and is saddened by the idea that she might be mortally ill.

"You know nothing, Jon Snow."

Val quoting Ygritte. Hm.

Paper Waver, those predictions are very atmospheric.

[Lummel]

...The Meeting Atop the Wall

Jon invites the two Northern clan leaders, Clydas, Marsh, Yarwick and the useless Septon to meet him on top of the Wall. The two Northmen are the only ones Jon needs to win over. The others are in his command and he doesn’t need their approval any more than Ned would need the approval of Vayon Poole, his steward. He has tasks to assign the three Watchmen but the Septon has no apparent reason to be there...

In addition to the other reasons that you gave it strikes me that those three didn't attend the wedding, so possibly their very public stance against Jon's policy has led to their being singled out on this occasion and perhaps it is for the Norrey's and the Flint's benefit too to see Jon assert his authority over the Watch?

[bemused]

Julia H .. Just a bit more on Val. As attracted as Val is to Jon ( and for whatever reasons ) I think the care given to her attire is not specifically to attract him ( or we would have seen some evidence of it in her attire when she left ), but probably (IMO) has more to do with ritual/religious purposes.

I think the way she timed her return by the moon , is more than just a handy ( and probably common ) way of giving an estimate. Full moon is a time for religious ritual in most if not all old religions ( and a time for bringing things to fruition - when the moon is at it's most powerful ).

When Ghost appears with Val, it's from between the trees as if they'd been off somewhere away from the camp . Perhaps engaging in some solitary rite ? We'll see, eventually , but many hints , ambiguities , the use of language and even the names Val and Dalla cause me to see Val as GRRM's version of a spaekona ( with his own differences , of course). Here are some similarities I've noticed ( In this case, just from Wikipedia )...

A vǫlva or völva (Old Norse and Icelandic respectively (the same word, except that the second letter evolved from ǫ to ö); plural vǫlvur (O.N.), völvur (Icel.), sometimes anglicized vala; also spákona or spækona) is a shamanic seeress in Norse paganism, and a recurring motif in Norse mythology.

Vala ... is a literary form based on Völva.

...they were held in high esteem and believed to possess such powers that even the father of the gods, Odin himself, consulted a völva to learn what the future had in store for the gods.

... It is difficult to draw a line between the (Norse) aristocratic lady and the wandering völva, but Old Norse sources present the völva as more professional and she went from estate to estate selling her spiritual services.[6] The völva had greater authority than the aristocratic lady, but both were ultimately dependent on the benevolence of the warlord that they served.[6] When they had been attached to a warlord, their authority depended on their personal competence and credibility. ...(Attachment could include marriage)

...The völur were known for their art of seduction, which was one of the reasons why they were considered dangerous.

(Ritual involved singing -) ... special songs intended to summon the powers that the völva wished to communicate with.

( Some practices - seiðr , specifically , seems to have included sexual rites, but - )... she could also perform the seiðr alone, which was called útiseta (literally, "sitting out"). This practice appears to have involved meditation or introspection, possibly for the purpose of divination.

... Keyser (1854) describes it as "a peculiar kind of sorcery [...] in which the magician sat out at night under the open sky [...] especially to inquire into the future".

...The völur were not considered to be harmless.[4] The goddess who was most skilled in magic was Freyja, and she was not only a goddess of love, but also a warlike divinity who caused screams of anguish, blood and death, and what Freyja performed in Asgard, the world of the gods, the völur tried to perform in Midgard, the world of men.

Though it seems we've been told very little about Val and Dalla , what little bits we are told are peppered with possible connections to the Vala.. Val and Dalla's strong opinions on magic..Val "singing to herself".. Val flirting with Jon... Jon sees her as a warrior princess .. Val spending time alone on top of the King's tower... Val able to travel freely without fear of being interfered with .. knowing where she must go.. and much more , but I don't want to go too "in depth" , here.

The more I think about it , and the more clues that pop up , the less I think Dalla was actually Val's sister but rather a sister in vocation , and the clothes she gave Val were not just a mark of sisterly affection ,but recognition of professional achievement.

[Ragnorak]

From her POV I would say that Mel is not particularly interested in the political maneuvering that occurs. It also sees that way how she never offers opinions even though she is always present when Stannis is around. I don't know if she thinks it is beneath her or simply not her concern or maybe even thinks of it as an unnecessary distraction. The way she works is to dictate the actions of people she might consider influential or for whatever reason integral to the good fight. Ironically enough I don't think she particularly cares if they are believers or not. Stannis certainly is not a believer but he has accepted the role of Azor Ahai he has bestowed her. Likewise she knows that Davos is not a believer, but it is enough for her to know that he is utterly loyal to Stannis. Selyse or any among her circle would not seem to fall in that particular category and Mel seems to devote to them the bare minimum of her time. She is also less than concerned about what happens to wildlings. I would have to disagree with you about Mance. He was bound to her in a way. The glamor she cast on him was the one thing keeping him alive at the Wall.

As for Jon he is in generally distrustful towards her. He would be unlikely to call her into his councils. After all this is first and foremost, a matter of the Watch and the clansmen are invited because their lands will be affected.

I was going through Bran's chapters in ASOS and the part where he was trekking north across the mountains. The chapter mentions that the clans were aware of Bran and his little party and upon coming across a member of clan Liddle they state their intent to reach the Wall. The logical conclusion on behalf of the clansmen would be that they did not seek to cross it, but seek refuge there. A relatively short time later Jon becomes lord commander of the Watch. Now wouldn't it be reasonable to think that the clans assume that Jon has his little brother stashed somewhere? More than it seems reasonable that they could think that Jon's moves aim at restoring him to power and a good reason for the clan chiefs to attend Jon.

I don't quite have any ideas on Mel yet. I had always viewed her as on a sort of static trajectory of continually trying to win Jon over as we saw in her own POV. We see that Jon goes to her but that the two things he really wants answers on, Stannis and Mance, she has nothing to offer. Is she frustrated with her own vision block? Is she angry that Jon won't listen to her other visions as a consequence? We see Jon go to Selyse but Mel isn't there as she would be when Stannis is around. Is she upset that Jon is treating with the actual queen and not the queen in all but name? I suppose we can surmise that interacting with Selyse may not be worth the ticket to Jon access or perhaps she correctly surmises that it would only serve to alienate Jon further? Wasn't it Selyse that got Mel access to Stannis? There really isn't anything in this chapter other than her absence when he sees Selyse. Are than any other options other than her staying the course and waiting for an opportunity or plotting an event to create and opportunity? It is speculation that is probably best left for her next on screen appearance but events this chapter may be worth keeping in mind-- her absence when he sees Selyse, that Jon trusted Val and Val produced while Mel hasn't, that Jon brought the Septon to the Wall meeting and not Mel, and potentially that Mel did not predict Val's return.

I do think it is reasonable to think that the Liddle would assume that Bran was headed to Jon at the Wall. I don't know what he or any other clan leader would conclude beyond that. Would they think Jon sent Bran to Braavos like Jon thinks of doing with Arya? Maybe on the ship with Sam? Would they think Jon gave him to Alys? That he's hidden at one of the reopened forts? Or would they expect something of Jon that he hasn't done and therefore think maybe Bran never made it? How would the obvious members of House Reed (everyone else calls them frog-eaters on sight) accompanying Bran influence their speculation? I think it is reasonable to conclude Flint and Norrey know Bran was on his way to the Wall since there are Liddles with Stannis. Beyond that I'm not sure what to think but I don't find your speculations improbable. Bemused's timeline observations complicate matters and I think add more uncertainty to the issue of Bran making it to the Wall in these clan leaders' eyes, but again I don't know what they'd expect Jon to do if they were certain Bran came to him.

Ragnorak...

While I made the connection between Jon and the man in the arena, I did not continue this train of thought. I really like the way you point out how other characters relate to this metaphor. (In Dany's case, the "arena" is quite literally there.)

The "have them dead" and "condemn them all to die" (great catch!) distinction refers back to the quarrel between Ned and Robert. Ned called murder a murder even in war, while Robert was rather relieved that someone else had done the dirty job for him.

The raven - dove contrast makes me think of the Night's Watch versus the Kingsguard. Black brothers and noble knights in white. I wonder... Could it be a relevant comparison?

Tormund's grief is indeed a touching moment. Tormund brings up the family theme in this chapter, first as he is grieving for his sons, then with the image of Tormund the mother duck.

Bemused...

Yes, Tormund is a much better "mother" for his ducklings than Selyse can be for hers. It is interesting that Tormund is referred to as "mother", while Selyse is described as having a beard. Apparently, some roles are reversed here, and probably not only in relation to Selyse and Tormund. (Cf. Jon is kneeling in front of Selyse when, by rights, it should be the other way round.)

Selyse's coldness seems especially harsh to me when she talks about the "little monster".

"... that squalling babe that keeps us awake at night."

I know Selyse is frustrated with motherhood, but still... She does have a child herself, and the presence of a motherless and fatherless baby should arouse at least some tender feelings in her - but no. Or, if she wanted to be just civil to Val as the girl is introduced to her, saying a few kind words about the baby would be the surest and easiest way to promote goodwill and understanding between two women. But she misses that opportunity, too.

By contrast, Jon's words on the same topic are probably as affectionate as a Stark Lord Commander's can ever get.

"Twice as big as when you left us, and thrice as loud. When he wants the teat, you can hear him wail in Eastwatch."

Jon doesn't complain about the noise as Selyse does. He is talking about the baby, who is growing and who has a healthy appetite and strong lungs.

Then Jon gets quite upset by Val's prediction that Shireen is a "dead girl". Shireen is no one to him, only the ugly child of an annoying couple who can't stop threatening him, and yet, he notices that "She seems a sweet girl" and is saddened by the idea that she might be mortally ill.

"You know nothing, Jon Snow."

Val quoting Ygritte. Hm.

Paper Waver, those predictions are very atmospheric.

I have this notion that one level to Jon and Sansa is "correcting" or learning from Ned's mistakes (in their attempts to emulate Ned rather than from having witnessed his actions) with Robert and Littlefinger. I think Ned put service to his friend (king) before service to his friend the king's people insofar as he tried to get Robert to do the right thing instead of using his position as Hand to just do the right thing in spite of Robert. (a little oversimplified) Jon here is ignoring Stannis and just doing the right thing and his "king and his laws" response to Marsh compared with Stannis's reaction to Jon's refusing him the forts really helps illustrate this.

I think you could write volumes on comparisons between the Nights Watch and the Kingsguard even if you limited it to what the author seems to have explicitly intended. I do think there's an intentional comparison in the dove/raven analogy. Small Paul carrying Sam is a hell of a lot more heroic than beating the crap out of Sansa. The lowborn criminals compared to the best of the best the realm has to offer...

Good observation regarding the children. It also makes Selyse even more unsympathetic. Val cherishes her "little monster" even if he isn't hers or her blood. The Watch seems to take in orphans as a matter of course. Mance was one such apparently. We know what Sam and Gilly went through to save that child. Jon showing regard for Shireen's life emphasizes Selyse's indifference to an infant. If that women miraculously managed to give birth to a son for Stannis she'd probably be executing people who complained about the crying. Stannis might have the better maternal instincts in that marriage and that's very, very sad.

In addition to the other reasons that you gave it strikes me that those three didn't attend the wedding, so possibly their very public stance against Jon's policy has led to their being singled out on this occasion and perhaps it is for the Norrey's and the Flint's benefit too to see Jon assert his authority over the Watch?

That seems quite reasonable. As I read your post I can't help but wonder if the reverse may apply with Jon hoping that the Flint and Norrey would agree in the end and that their acquiescence would have an impact on the detracting Watchmen.

[bemused]

The Sleeper .. In case my last post on the subject seemed too brusque, ( I had meant to soften that first "No" statement with a :) or a ;) ) .. a better way of putting it would be ... I think your suggestion seems reasonable at first glance, but when the background information is considered, it becomes much less reasonable (IMO).

In ASoS, Bran had just listed off the various mountain clans and their territories ...

Jojen Reed stopped to catch his breath. “Do you think these mountain folk know we’re here?”

“They know.” Bran had seen them watching; not with his own eyes, but with Summer’s sharper ones, that missed so little.

- - To me this implies that it's not only the Liddles watching, but other clans as well. And it only makes sense to me that the watching would continue after they met The Liddle. The Liddle points out a few home truths ...

“As to that Wall,” the man went on, “it’s not a place that I’d be going. The Old Bear took the Watch into the haunted woods, and all that come back was his ravens, with hardly a message between them. Dark wings, dark words, me mother used to say, but when the birds fly silent, seems to me that’s even darker.”

- - So he knows Benjen is lost, Mormont isn't at the wall and Jon is unlikely to be. Jon has no wealth of his own to send Bran away, and isn't yet in a high position in the watch. Bran is on the run from the Boltons, and according to the conventional wisdom (about to be repeated frequently )"the NW takes no part". The Liddle has a son in the NW..he knows the convention, and can't think Bran could have much hope of shelter there..

There's a distinct possibility that the old man killed at Queenscrown was himself a "watcher" . He wouldn't be out of place, there. Even when Bran & co become aware of the wildlings on shore ,

"Most like they’re just some Umbers,” he (Bran) said. “Or they could be Knotts or Norreys or Flints come down from the mountains, or even brothers from the Night’s Watch."

-- This next is speculative , but logical , I think... Even if the old man wasn't a watcher , he might be missed and tracked.. His body and the bodies of the wildlings at the abandoned inn would be found... In the tower, Bran also thought that no-one else would know about the causeway.. but I think he was as wrong about that as he must have been about the passage inside the inner wall of Winterfell in AGoT.

If Bran knew about the causeway , I'm sure the Clans and Umbers must know as well. ..so the tower could be checked by anyone looking for the old man or for Bran's party , who might have left some signs behind ( say, Summer's blood in the tower ?... or soft ground after a thunderstorm would take footprints well )... I think any watcher or tracker worth his salt would check to see who had moved on from the tower , and which direction they took . The Nightfort is well west of Castle Black..

The battle(s) at the wall must have taken place as Bran's journey continued (aside - so the eagle Meera waved to at the Nightfort was probably an ordinary eagle ). Sam met Bowen returning as he and Gilly made for Castle Black , and we know Bowen had to heal first... Travelling on foot and off the Kingsroad, Bran would be slower than Styr and would have arrived after Stannis , but probably before the election..I think the clans could estimate how long that trip would have taken; they've been watching Bran all along the way.

From ADWD :

Old Flint and The Norrey had been given places of high honor just below the dais. Both men had been too old to march with Stannis; they had sent their sons and grandsons in their stead. But they had been quick enough to descend on Castle Black for the wedding. Each had brought a wet nurse to the Wall as well.

- - Here, I think for the wedding probably just means in time for. I'm not sure Jon would have sent them invitations. What if they had been outraged by the idea? ..And I'm not sure the one instance where the books mention Aemon sending ravens to the clans isn't a flook , since there's no mention anywhere of the mountain clans having maesters.( When I pointed it out previously , it was as an interesting anomaly.) I think they came in reaction to Stannis' visit , using delivering the wetnurses as an excuse , and their response was "quick enough" to get them there in time for the wedding....

..... For that much Jon was grateful … but he did not believe for a moment that two such hoary old warriors would have hied down from their hills for that alone. ( For what alone ?..wedding, wetnurses or both?)

( Flint, Norrey and their men ).... all worshiped the old gods of the north, those same gods worshiped by the free folk beyond the Wall. Yet here they sat, drinking to a marriage hallowed by some queer red god from beyond the seas.... ( Too canny to give anything away.)

Their arrival suggests to me a hurried trip to make some serious assessments - beyond the wedding or the need for a wetnurse. ...And even if they had assumed Bran had gone to CB , once they were at Castle Black they would hear the gossip like anyone else , and I can't believe they wouldn't seek out a man who they could trust for the straight lowdown on what has happened at the wall , Big Liddle.

Bran's party was distinctive . Someone would have noticed. And we know there can't be any news or gossip about them because they were never there, News of their "death" at Theon's hand has travelled. They must still be presumed dead at the Wall, and they couldn't be mistaken for anyone else. I just can't think Flint and Norrey would be under any illusions that Bran had been hidden away by Jon at this point.

[Lummel]

...The raven - dove contrast makes me think of the Night's Watch versus the Kingsguard. Black brothers and noble knights in white. I wonder... Could it be a relevant comparison?...

Oh, yes, definitely, the two are parallel organisations

black:white

low:high

defend the realm:defend the king

both are celibate, serve for life and deny family connections. Both are honourable, yet both remove the individual from normal life.

Taking the idea a step further there was a short thread (or two maybe) comparing Jon and Jaime.

[The Sleeper]

@ Ragnorak I don't think that timeline is that much of an issue. Bran and Sam crossed paths at Nightfort and Jon became LC not long after. Besides it's more of a situation that needs to be resolved. Robb's heir was making for the Wall. What happened to him. In their place I would see three options in descending probability order.

1. He died somewhere in the wildernes.

2. His brother has him stashed somewhere

3. He is hiding in one of the abandoned forts.

Option number two has all sorts of implications, which could make them at Jon's actions in a very different light.

At least that is what I think their initial mindset, would have been when they came at the Wall. I assume they have been talking to people there and gathering information. The presence of Big Liddle seems unlikely to be inconsequential. At the very least the would know that Bran never went through Castle Black. What they make of everything that's been going on is anybody's guess.

As for Septon Cellador I can't think of anything specific, other that the fact that because these three presented themselves to Jon as a group, Jon continues to treat them as one.

ETA

@ bemused

Don't worry about it.

Yes, there are many reasons why Bran wouldn't be making him for the Wall, but they have his stated intent to reach it and them observing him going in that direction. At the very least this would bear some investigation, no?

This of course raises the question way they didn't take a hand in the first place. One reason would be that they saw the wisdom of Bran's choice to travel in secrecy. Another would be that they weren't willing to take the initiative and involve themselves in northern politics as harboring Bran would present several implications. There is also the fact that they wouldn't know what to do with him. I think it is a combination to all of the above.

[Mithras]

bemused,

The story of the Black Gate is not a secret. Sam told that to everyone because how he passed south of the Wall with Gilly and her babe has to be explained. He probably lied how he read about the Black Gate in an ancient book - No need to complicate things by mentioning Coldhands.

I assume Big Liddle (who seems to inform the mountain clans regularly) went with Bowen Marsh to participate in the Battle of the Bridge of Skulls considering he is a ranger and how they hate the Weeper. Even stewards like Edd had to go, though we see that Grenn is left behind. So, Big Liddle should see Sam on the way and return to CB with him after Styr was defeated. Only at this point he can inform the mountain clans and I think even that might take some time.

I think the mountain clans watched Bran all the way to Nightfort and they were still watching by the time Sam emerged and they watched Sam when he left for the CB. They also checked the Nightfort and found Bran gone. So, Bran is now somewhere North of the Wall, unable to return secretly by themselves. They probably thought that Sam told the truth of Bran to Jon since they are very close.

One of the first things Jon did as the LC was to send Sam and Aemon to Oldtown. From the POV of the mountain clans, they might think that Jon secretly arranged for the passage of Bran across the Narrow Sea, or he is keeping them at some safe place.

I really suspect that the mountain clans are looking for the signs of Bran and what is Jon doing with him. If they somehow heard that Jon rejected to be legitimized as a Stark by Stannis, then they could probably guess that Jon keeps Bran somewhere safe.

[Lummel]

Picking up on Ragnorak's theme of theatricality can't we say that all three audiences are set pieces of theatre?

• Notice how Tormund only throws the horns after he has drunk the mead - this isn't a man who has lost his temper, but a man pretending to have lost his temper
  
• Ditto Jon prompting Val how to behave with Selyse
  
• Finally the scene on the wall - the question here is who is the audience and who the players. Have the three from the watch been brought there to see the two clan lords agree to Jon's scheme or have the clan lords been brought there to see the opposition to Jon?
  

On the subject of the men we see two things, both how Jon has turned away from his senior officers, but also how opinion is divided with others fearing blood and iron. Jon's officers we know already from the end of ASOS don't want to confront the magical/mystical element of the situation beyond the wall and seem happier far to bury their heads in the sand (or snow maybe) over it. Yest the threat of the weeper forcing his way over the bridge of skulls leads them all round to the problem of the shortage of manpower.

I thought it was interesting given Marsh's awareness of the reach and power of Lord Tywin in ASOS that Marsh alone is unimpressed by Jon's invocation of The Ned to vouchsafe his preparedness to decapitate children - particularly interesting because Marsh did witness the beheading of Slynt.

Reading the chapter I had my usual thoughts about Val, how does she think that she can help Jon win round the Watch? Where did the clothes come from? Notable that she didn't join in the debate between Tormund and Jon (particularly since she does think that she can help with the Watch), Jon seems to have expected that she could have swapped her horse for a better one but didn't as though he does think that she can pull weight among the wildlings and there is the obvious irony over the princess in the tower rescued by a knight - or cruel foreshadowing if you prefer.

On the question of Jon stealing Val, if there was any doubt isn't he stealing her for sure this time - having her removed from the King's tower and placed in Hardin's tower under the guard of his own men and his own giant? Won't Ser Patrek be trying to steal Val away from Jon? Considering how the Ser Patrek of Mount Royal story only got into ADWD because of a bet it is quite nice to see how far GRRM went to embed it organically in the story which gives me some hope with regard to the two (so far) deaths that he has recently auctioned off.

There was a lot of flicking backwards and forwards with nods to different chapters, the business of a good deal disappointing both parties, the crystalline beauty of the Wall, the mention of Needle...

[Ragnorak]

I think Jon's response to Bowen on top of the Wall shows a significant evolution in his understanding of "the oath." I was thinking back over the course of Jon's story and trying to pick out the key moments that deal with his evolution of understanding his oath.

Aemon's raven and dove speech.

His ride south which is really about one man's honor, his own, outweighing the oath.

Mormont's lecture upon his return which also includes issues like the conflicting pull of family-- help Robb or help Benjen.

Gilly's appeal for help and his talk with Mormont about Craster

Jon's choice to not kill Ygritte where the lessons of Ned override what he perceives as orders stemming from the authority of his oath.

The Halfhand's assignment and talk of how the underlying meaning of the oath outweighs its actual words and "one man's honor" which mirrors the values that made Jon ride south.

Sleeping with Ygritte which Jon was avoiding to try and keep true to one little corner of the oath in his heart.

Jon balking at killing the old man despite the Halfhand's orders to not balk whatever was demanded of him.

I'm not sure that the Stannis offer of Winterfell is really an evolution of his understanding of the oath but perhaps others feel differently.

I think Jon's refusal to give in to Stannis's demands gives us a baseline for his understanding of the oath as a LC and also a starting point for his DwD oath evolution.

The baby swap since clearly these are not his charges as LC yet he acts anyway and it never occurs to him that there is any oath conflict in that choice despite his risking a king's wrath.

The Mance burning Mummer's show and his talk with Bowen. I don't think Jon has any epiphanies here but it does seem to set a baseline for his current understanding, values, and dilemmas.

His advice to Stannis in exchange for the Wildlings.

His apple or onion choice in Molestown.

His "realms of men" epiphany at the weirwood grove.

His choice to defy Stannis and send out Val.

The Alys dilemma where again the lesson's of the father seem to outweigh the restrictions of the oath.

This chapter on top of the Wall where Jon explicitly rejects the Jon I DwD oath requirement set forth by Stannis of protecting the king's land in favor of his realms of men understanding from the weirwood grove.

Did I miss anything or add something that ought not be oath related? In reviewing the list I see the "lessons of the father" crop up more than I had realized. Anyone see any patterns, themes, etc. that stand out?

[The Sleeper]

• Notice how Tormund only throws the horns after he has drunk the mead - this isn't a man who has lost his temper, but a man pretending to have lost his temper

Or he is simply a man who has his priorities straight. He is called the mead-king, after all. But yes, I agree. A man like Tormund could not be any less boisterous when he argues.

• Ditto Jon prompting Val how to behave with Selyse

Remarkably only Jon is the one who remains in character and maintains propriety even though the other two fall back to unveiled defiance and threats. I get the feeling that Jon is his own audience in this, keeping his hopes up that this can be salvaged. And that all parties are within the context of alliance or at least collaboration. I think it is telling that with the enemy at the gates, preconceptions seem impossible to overcome.

• Finally the scene on the wall - the question here is who is the audience and who the players. Have the three from the watch been brought there to see the two clan lords agree to Jon's scheme or have the clan lords been brought there to see the opposition to Jon?

I think that Jon is the actor here and the rest are the audience. The context is in the setting. It says that they are the watchers on the Wall and the vistas that would seem to encompass the realms of men in their entirety, both north and south convey what is at stake. The height of the local also conveys the perspective under which must they must view the issues in question. The subject of the play would ultimately be Jon saying this is right, this is necessary and I got this. I suspect that each member of the audience understood different things.

I think Jon's response to Bowen on top of the Wall shows a significant evolution in his understanding of "the oath." I was thinking back over the course of Jon's story and trying to pick out the key moments that deal with his evolution of understanding his oath.

Aemon's raven and dove speech.

His ride south which is really about one man's honor, his own, outweighing the oath.

Mormont's lecture upon his return which also includes issues like the conflicting pull of family-- help Robb or help Benjen.

Gilly's appeal for help and his talk with Mormont about Craster

Jon's choice to not kill Ygritte where the lessons of Ned override what he perceives as orders stemming from the authority of his oath.

The Halfhand's assignment and talk of how the underlying meaning of the oath outweighs its actual words and "one man's honor" which mirrors the values that made Jon ride south.

Sleeping with Ygritte which Jon was avoiding to try and keep true to one little corner of the oath in his heart.

Jon balking at killing the old man despite the Halfhand's orders to not balk whatever was demanded of him.

I'm not sure that the Stannis offer of Winterfell is really an evolution of his understanding of the oath but perhaps others feel differently.

I think Jon's refusal to give in to Stannis's demands gives us a baseline for his understanding of the oath as a LC and also a starting point for his DwD oath evolution.

The baby swap since clearly these are not his charges as LC yet he acts anyway and it never occurs to him that there is any oath conflict in that choice despite his risking a king's wrath.

The Mance burning Mummer's show and his talk with Bowen. I don't think Jon has any epiphanies here but it does seem to set a baseline for his current understanding, values, and dilemmas.

His advice to Stannis in exchange for the Wildlings.

His apple or onion choice in Molestown.

His "realms of men" epiphany at the weirwood grove.

His choice to defy Stannis and send out Val.

The Alys dilemma where again the lesson's of the father seem to outweigh the restrictions of the oath.

This chapter on top of the Wall where Jon explicitly rejects the Jon I DwD oath requirement set forth by Stannis of protecting the king's land in favor of his realms of men understanding from the weirwood grove.

Did I miss anything or add something that ought not be oath related? In reviewing the list I see the "lessons of the father" crop up more than I had realized. Anyone see any patterns, themes, etc. that stand out?

i think that the most obvious pattern is growing up, actually. Jon starts with a set core of principles from his father, as well as influences and input form other mentor figures he has come across along the way, while being thrown in situations where he is called to apply these principles into practice. He evaluates, compares, adjust and prioritize and comes to his own understanding, purpose and worldview. He is becoming his own man. I also think one of the conclusions is that Jon always eventually chooses the mission, which I think is directly related with what he wants for himself and that is for his life to have a purpose.

[bemused]

Lummel.. on 3 plays,3 audiences..

Tormund's theatrics.. Val is his AD , or maybe they're co-directors..

A sign of this might involve her clothes.. Where did they come from , indeed ? ..I suspect Val might have brought them with her. As a captive of note, she might reasonably have been allowed some personal belongings , and whatever had been prepared for the baby... and Mance's tent, at least, was apparently not overrun and trashed ( thanks to Jon).

Dalla gave the clothes to Val , but the question is when ? Perhaps it was not at some previous "graduation" or induction , but on Dalla's deathbed. Perhaps they had actually been Dalla's up to that point, and Val now wearing them announces to the free folk that Dalla's mantle has literally been passed to Val... It doesn't seem possible that Tormund could have had them in his keeping .

But if I'm right about Val ( to whatever degree) and the clothes are regalia, then the sight of her riding off side by side with Jon, to the free folk watching ( as Jon notes they were) would have conveyed quite a message and served to back up Tormund's decision.

At the same time , we should remember that Mance won his position partly through such negotiations .. and in part , Tormund's bombast is just putting up a good verbal fight , which not only saves him face , but makes Jon's "victory" all the more impressive.

Got to trek off to have some stitches removed - I'll come back to this.