A Westerosi Paternity Test

[Tiggy4Real]

I've always felt that Cersei could have argued her way out of the problem of her kids not being actual Baratheons. If Robert has a blonde (albeit Targaryen) ancestor, and Stannis is brown-eyed, it is not impossible for him to conceive 3 blonde, green-eyed Baratheon babies. And if the Baratheons always had Targaryen blood (because of Orys), and targaryens would sometimes be known to be crazy, wouldn't it stand to chance that somebody would turn out crazy (like Joffrey)?

I know that ultimately it's the authors rules, but at some point someone has to ask: is there a way to truly prove a child's paternity in Westeros - that doesn't have to do with dragons and warging? And if there is, what is it and can it stand up to close scrutiny?

[Pod The Impaler]

If there had been even one blond Baratheon, going back within 10 generations, sure. But all of them were "black of hair" going back to the earliest records, and this was regardless of how not-black / blond any of their progenitors were (including Targaryens and Lannisters). It's really quite an impressive genetic dominance.

[Stormland's Fury]

I've always felt that Cersei could have argued her way out of the problem of her kids not being actual Baratheons. If Robert has a blonde (albeit Targaryen) ancestor, and Stannis is brown-eyed, it is not impossible for him to conceive 3 blonde, green-eyed Baratheon babies. And if the Baratheons always had Targaryen blood (because of Orys), and targaryens would sometimes be known to be crazy, wouldn't it stand to chance that somebody would turn out crazy (like Joffrey)?

I know that ultimately it's the authors rules, but at some point someone has to ask: is there a way to truly prove a child's paternity in Westeros - that doesn't have to do with dragons and warging? And if there is, what is it and can it stand up to close scrutiny?

Stannis his blue-eyed though like the rest. Orys was actually fair-haired like other Valeryans, but it seems the Baratheons did get all the cosmetic traits of the Durrendons and only got their last name from Orys.

I think the only ways to prove paternity is the way as Ned, Jon and Stannis did and not even that is 100% sure. It seems though that most Westerosi just take take it for granted and don't question the nobility, especially not the queen. I am sure though if Cersei would have given birth to a mocca colored child for example, Jalabhar Xho would be on the way to the gallows and Robert would look for a new wife.

[Ser Lepus]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/60388-the-if-asoiaf-characters-were-sensible-thread-spoilers-naturally/#entry2880845

Ned: Brother...or lover?
Cersei: What the f**k? Jamie is my twin brother! what kind of sewer-minded pervert are you? I´m telling Robert!
Ned: Don´t deny it! Your children all look just like your...your...
Cersei: Twin brother?
Ned: Er...er...
Cersei: They look like Jamie because their mother looks like Jamie, dumbass!
Ned: But they don´t look like Baratheons at all!
Cersei: And your own children Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon look like Tullys rather than Starks! Is Edmure their father?
Ned: Uh...
Cersei: I´m going!
Ned: Wait! I´m sorry! I don´t know what i was thinking!
Cersei: I know exactly what you were thinking, you disgusting incest fetishist!

[Lady Howell]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/60388-the-if-asoiaf-characters-were-sensible-thread-spoilers-naturally/#entry2880845

Oh my God, I will never stop laughing at that!

But back on topic, Westeros puts more stock in looks. Without a trace of Robert or any other Baratheon in her children, Cersei was screwed. The only thing about her children she could have potentially passed off as Robert's genes was Joffrey being tall and strong for his age. But that's just one kid out of three, and that's the only thing he and Robert have in common really that could be classified as a genetic trait and not an environmental one. It also happens to be a trait shared my, you guessed it, Jaime. I doubt Cersei could have talked herself out of the incest pickle unless perhaps she used the tactics used in the AU situation above. But even that's kind of slim.

[nara]

I think that she could have stood her ground and denied the incest. In fact, that's exactly what she did to everyone except Ned. To this day, the realm is not clear about the truth. If it were, there's no way the Tyrells and Martells would agree to keep the marriages/betrothals to which they agreed. Not saying that they don't believe in the incest themselves, but they would never want to be laughingstocks.

The people who dislike the Lannisters (and there are a lot of them) believe the incest because they want to do so. They believe it, not because of any evidence, but rather because they think the Lannisters are capable of anything (which they are), even this abomination. The people of KL remember Tywin sacking the city, Jaime kingslaying, Tyrion being an ugly dwarf, Cersei and Joff being generally cruel to the smallfolk. Also, people often want to see happy, beautiful, and successful people brought down to earth. Believing the incest is one way to do so.

As mentioned by Lady Howell, the Westerosi are very much swayed by looks. However, that could have worked to Cersei's advantage. If Cersei had bothered to try to be nice and charming in general and (if necessary) had pleaded her innocence and fidelity, many people would have believed her because of her beauty alone.

The appearance of the children is not really enough to prove the case. As has been mentioned, Jon and Arya have a marked Stark look and the other kids the Tully look. Arya, in particular, looks a lot like Lyanna. Does that make her the child of Ned and Lyanna? Nope. (Wait! New crackpot theory! :laugh:) Cersei would only have to point to Ned's own children, Sansa and Arya, to demonstrate that appearances don't tell the whole story.

As for the book that Jon and Ned read, IIRC it only had descriptions of the kings (and Joff as crown prince). It's not likely people would be around who remembered what the other siblings of those unions looked like and that might muddy the waters.

The bastards do pose a threat because some of them closely resemble Robert and Renly. However, the Lannisters can lie their way out of that one by claiming that Lannister blood is stronger then the blood of the random women with whom Robert fathered those children. People might be willing to belief such things.

[Mad Monkey]

Here's the thing though. The evidence for incest wasn't supposed to convince the whole world. It was supposed to convince Ned Stark and/or Jon Arryn, the two people in the world that the King cares for and respects the most. Once it did that, that's pretty much it -- if Ned or Jon had come to Robert and made a decently convincing case - based on history - . Robert won't be going off of hardcore logic here, he would be based it on his trust in the accuser as well as his personal dislike of his wife and her family as well as the distant relationship that he already has with these kids, who look and act like nothing like him.

I definitely agree, if this was in a court or something like that the evidence that was shown would be flimsy at best. The link that was posted above is hilarious, but it also makes a good point -- Cersei's children look like Jaime because Cersei looks like Jaime. Ned would naturally counter back with the fact that basically all Baratheon children in recorded history have the Baratheon look, but even that's not 100% dispositive. But it might be enough for Robert to be convinced by his childhood friend.

[Misnthropia]

Lets get Maury in here.

The Baratheon gene is strong. It has for generations overpowered the Targaryen genes in looks, i think it wouldve a compelling enough argument coming from someone half competent.

To this day, the realm is not clear about the truth. If it were, there's no way the Tyrells and Martells would agree to keep the marriages/betrothals to which they agreed. Not saying that they don't believe in the incest themselves, but they would never want to be laughingstocks.

Id say everyone is fairly positive they are the bastard offpsring of Cersei and Jamie. Its just, what are they going to do about it?

He who holds the throne holds the power. Noones going to openly challenge the Lannisters at this point, theyve got the throne. They have the army. They have the money. The Tyrells want to be a ruling family so they will play along and with Highgarden's supplies and forces who is going to question the legitamacy of their reign?

Im sure everyone knows the truth, just doesnt want to say it out loud.

This may be opening another topic that has already been discussed here, Im new so I apologise if it has.

Stannis has been shouting over and over he is rightful king. Even if Jamie openly said Im his father, at that point couldnt the Lannisters take the throne by right of conquest? I mean assuming the Lannisters are still at the peak of the power and not crazy/on a walkabout/running from the law/dead.

[The Kinkslayer]

All Westerosi medicine involves leaches, but even Lord Leach was convinced by the looks instead of doing more extensive tests.

[averde]

This is something I think about all the time. While we as readers know Ned is right about the twincest, if we didn't know that and only had Neds knowledge at the time he confronted Cersei, evidence is pretty slim.

[Tiggy4Real]

Stannis has been shouting over and over he is rightful king. Even if Jamie openly said Im his father, at that point couldnt the Lannisters take the throne by right of conquest? I mean assuming the Lannisters are still at the peak of the power and not crazy/on a walkabout/running from the law/dead.

Can the Lannisters really say they got it by right of conquest though? Technically Joffrey inherited the throne from someone he (and the rest fo the kingdom) thought was his father. If his uncle challenges it and loses, can that really be considered a conquest? I'll consider it a coup, by I can't say anything was conquered.

[Mad Monkey]

Right of conquest means whatever you need it to mean at the time. It's like lingerie, it covers everything and nothing at the same time.

I do think that the Lannisters are better off not admitting to the incest at this stage though. Right now they are in a precarious position where they are widely disliked but no one can challenge their rule. If they admit to having betrayed the previous king, with the strong implication that they may have killed him instead, it opens the door to their being overthrown. The Faith may rise up, perhaps not immediately but once a suitably Seven-worshipping and legitimate candidate appears (Aegon Targaryen has already invaded, and many remember his father fondly). Many may flock to Stannis's banner, not just because of the incest but because of the misrule and disorder that seems to cling to the Lannister regime like flies on a turd. Right now their political coalition is in poor health at best - Tyrell is probably realizing that Cersei came within a hair's breadth of murdering his daughter, and without the Tyrells the Lannisters are the second weakest faction I believe.

[Chebyshov]

She easily could have talked her way out of it. But I'm also pretty sure that Westerosi (and possibly GRRM) have little understanding of dominant and recessive traits.

[Ser Greg of House House]

I didn't get the impression that people believed the twincest at all. They might suspect it's true, but they're not sure. Do we have info on this?

Ned's argument is flimsy. If the kids looked like another unrelated person it would be one thing. But Joff is tall and looks like his mother. What's the big deal? The way westerosi are they might as well say the gods favored blond hair and Lannister looks for the new king.

[Tiggy4Real]

Like I really can't see how that many guys just up and admit that they have all of these bastards. Do ALL of Oberyn Martell's daughters look like him? And the reasoning for Ramsey being Roose's son pissed me off. It's like it's not even the fact that they both have grey (I believe) eyes, it's the "I would totally skin a guy, just 'cause" look that they apparently both have. How does that even make sense? Is that like a Bolton family trait? Did Domeric have that same look as well?

[Chebyshov]

I didn't get the impression that people believed the twincest at all. They might suspect it's true, but they're not sure. Do we have info on this?

Tell that to Robert's brothers

[Ser Greg of House House]

Tell that to Robert's brothers

They have a motive to believe that or say they believe that. We have no POVs from them, so I'm not even sure they truly 100% believe it.

[Sullen]

Tell that to Robert's brothers

*brother

Renly makes it fairly clear he thinks Stannis is bullshitting to get the Throne.

[Stormland's Fury]

They have a motive to believe that or say they believe that. We have no POVs from them, so I'm not even sure they truly 100% believe it.

Stannis saw Gendry with his own eyes though. Ned said Gendry looked like a young Robert and later on Brienne confused him with Renly at first, so Stannis must have come to the same conclusion.

But yeah Geoff looks like his mother and he's tall for his age, something that could be attributed to Robert, so people maybe believed it.

It's not really the fact that children between Baratheons and Lannisters all looked like Baratheons up until now that makes it so obvious, it's the fact that Robert's own children look so much like him in comparison. If Renly had known this he could have used Edric to prove Stannis' theory. (before he decided to be king himself)

[Tiggy4Real]

They have a motive to believe that or say they believe that. We have no POVs from them, so I'm not even sure they truly 100% believe it.

Renly had Edric. Stannis has probably seen both Edric and Gendry, plus talked to Jon Arryn about Mya. I believe there were others that they might have seen, so Stannis probably figured that was too many to discredit.