Things the Viewing Unsullied are missing (BOOK SPOILERS)

[Annara Snow]

I wasn't objecting to the syntax.

He said that Rhaegar Targaryen left his sister for another woman, not that he ran off with another woman. He offered no clarity whatsoever as to whether the 'other woman' was a willing participant in what occurred following.

So yeah, not so much with the point remaining...

Is that what people say when someone abducts and rapes a woman?

[Ser Not Appearing]

He said that Rhaegar Targaryen left his sister for another woman, not that he ran off with another woman. He offered no clarity whatsoever as to whether the 'other woman' was a willing participant in what occurred following.

Yeah, that's how most rapes are described.

"Honey, I'm sorry but things aren't working out. I'm leaving you for another woman. I'd love to talk it over, but gotta run. She's tied up in the trunk right now and the car is running."

Leaving someone for another woman clearly indicates a more established relationship. It's not even that subtle.

I refuse to debate this. The merits of our respective opinions stand on their own.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Yeah, that's how most rapes are described.

"Honey, I'm sorry but things aren't working out. I'm leaving you for another woman. I'd love to talk it over, but gotta run. She's tied up in the trunk right now and the car is running."

Leaving someone for another woman clearly indicates a more established relationship. It's not even that subtle.

I refuse to debate this. The merits of our respective opinions stand on their own.

Again, he offered no clarity whatsoever as to what happened after Rhaegar left Elia (I could have sworn I just typed that). He didn't "describe a rape" because he didn't describe anything at all.

Rhaegar = bad guy

Elia = victim

Other woman = no comment

Concept = not complicated

You're reading into his words what you want them to say. That's fine - just present it as such. Changing his words and presenting your own baseless assumptions as conclusive based on those misrepresented words (as you did earlier) is objectionable (which is why I objected).

As for subtlety, it shocks me that any of you is naive enough to think that D&D wouldn't carefully choose every word which is spoken on this particular topic. Apparently all they need to do is head fake in one direction and people like you go running in it full speed without a second thought.

[Annara Snow]

Again, he offered no clarity whatsoever as to what happened after Rhaegar left Elia (I could have sworn I just typed that). He didn't "describe a rape" because he didn't describe anything at all.

Rhaegar = bad guy

Elia = victim

Other woman = no comment

Concept = not complicated

You're reading into his words what you want them to say. That's fine - just present it as such. Changing his words and presenting your own baseless assumptions as conclusive based on those misrepresented words (as you did earlier) is objectionable (which is why I objected).

As for subtlety, it shocks me that any of you is naive enough to think that D&D wouldn't carefully choose every word which is spoken on this particular topic. Apparently all they need to do is head fake in one direction and people like you go running in it full speed without a second thought.

Um, in that scenario the "other woman" is the victim- a rape victim. Rape is a serious crime, you don't just neglect to mention it.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Um, in that scenario the "other woman" is the victim- a rape victim. Rape is a serious crime, you don't just neglect to mention it.

In Oberyn's version of the events, Rhaegar is the bad guy, Elia is the victim, and Lyanna doesn't matter; just like in Robert's version of the events, Rhaegar is the bad guy, Lyanna is the victim, and Elia doesn't matter.

Robert told his story back in Season 1 - is the fact that he neglected to mention Elia's rape proof that it never happened either?

edt: This discussion is probably more appropriate in a different thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/106984-oberyn-tyrion-discussion-re-rhaegar-elia-book-spoilers/

[Le Cygne]

Leaving someone for another woman clearly indicates a more established relationship. It's not even that subtle.

Yeah, it's always that way. That's the way you'd talk about a consensual relationship.

If he was going to go to the trouble of badmouthing Rhaegar, why would he hold back on the worst thing he did? Because he didn't do it. Oberyn went with the worst thing Rhaegar did, which was leave his sister for someone else.

He's also doing what people do when they are upset about something, they find someone to blame. Sometimes they blame themselves, and on some level, Oberyn likely is, too. It's not rational, but these things rarely are.

There's subtlety to this.

[tsarrast]

I just cannot believe that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.

Firstly it doesn't fit Rhaegar's personality profile. He isn't one of the crazy Targarayans... he was bookwormish until he decided to take up fighting... than he became a great fighter. All the POV's that knew him well (like Selmy) - all speak very highly about him, especially that he was honorable. He's also the crown prince, and a handsome man by all accounts. Why on Earth would he need or want to kidnap Lyanna and run off with her? Because he can? I don't buy that at all - and I don't think it makes sense. Sure it hasn't been disproven - and it is what Robert's saying - but Robert is the most biased of basically everybody who discusses the subject - and it seems even Ned doesn't want to confirm Robert's POV on the subject.

Secondly, Lyanna isn't really the type to be kidnapped and just submit. She's discussed as a wild spirit, one who perhaps wouldn't go along with a situation like that - would try escaping, fight, etc... even abort the child in some way if she got pregnant through rape. Now this is much more assumption on my part, but I still think some of these things are possible and it's further reason to discount the kidnap theory.

It just makes a lot more sense that they ran off together. Lyanna bc she was of course promised to Robert (who she told Ned wouldn't change - it sounds like she didn't love him)... and Rhaegar bc of course he's married already! It sounds like the type of thing that would be secret / happen suddenly / not discussed with others... which is exactly how it sounds when you hear other characters talking about it.

I'd love to bet anyone that believes she was kidnapped as much as they want at even money that if it's ever proven through book canon, that she eloped as opposed to being kidnapped. It just feels rather obvious.

[Mr Fixit]

Sometimes they blame themselves, and on some level, Oberyn likely is, too. It's not rational, but these things rarely are.

Why would Oberyn blame himself for what happened to Elia?

[Annara Snow]

In Oberyn's version of the events, Rhaegar is the bad guy, Elia is the victim, and Lyanna doesn't matter; just like in Robert's version of the events, Rhaegar is the bad guy, Lyanna is the victim, and Elia doesn't matter.

Robert told his story back in Season 1 - is the fact that he neglected to mention Elia's rape proof that it never happened either?

edt: This discussion is probably more appropriate in a different thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/106984-oberyn-tyrion-discussion-re-rhaegar-elia-book-spoilers/

Um, no. That makes no sense. Rape =/= breakup/infidelity. And Robert didn't mention Elia's rape because Rhaegar didn't rape Elia, Gregor did, and Robert was talking about the Targs and their crimes or alleged crimes, not Gregor and Tywin. Oberyn was talking about Rhaegar and Lyanna. What you're suggesting is like someone saying "poor [Gregor Clegane's wife], her husband is cheating on her" - with his rape victims. Because it's infidelity that's the problem there, right? Not the fact that he likes to rape and murder women...

[Illusive_Man]

One thing I have noticed is that the show does a bad job in showing how much Jorah wants Dany. At this point in the books he had already forced a kiss and proclaimed his love.

[Mr Fixit]

One thing I have noticed is that the show does a bad job in showing how much Jorah wants Dany. At this point in the books he had already forced a kiss and proclaimed his love.

Oh I think anyone who pays attention knows about poor old Jorah and his unrequited love. It was telegraphed on several occasions in both Seasons 2 and 3. Even in S1, if you think that Viserys' words to Jorah about "dining on whichever parts of her you like" are onto something.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Um, no. That makes no sense. Rape =/= breakup/infidelity. And Robert didn't mention Elia's rape because Rhaegar didn't rape Elia, Gregor did, and Robert was talking about the Targs and their crimes or alleged crimes, not Gregor and Tywin. Oberyn was talking about Rhaegar and Lyanna. What you're suggesting is like someone saying "poor [Gregor Clegane's wife], her husband is cheating on her" - with his rape victims. Because it's infidelity that's the problem there, right? Not the fact that he likes to rape and murder women...

Um, no. You think Oberyn hates Tywin because of something Rhaegar did to Lyanna?

Oberyn was talking about Gregor raping and murdering Elia on Tywin's order, which is why Rhaegar's abandonment was entirely relevant to the story and the nature of his relationship with Lyanna was entirely not.

[Le Cygne]

I just cannot believe that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.

It just doesn't make for a good story, either. This is a central relationship. The author is a romantic, Rhaegar was a romantic, just look at the title, A Song of Ice and Fire. And the Tower of Joy, let's not forget that! :)

Also, listening to the lines again. Oberyn trusted Rhaegar to look after Elia, and he let him down. I think he's blaming Rhaegar because Elia loved him, but Rhaegar loved someone else. If there had been something worse, he would have said that.

"My sister loved him... Beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her for another woman."

[franko99]

One thing I have noticed is that the show does a bad job in showing how much Jorah wants Dany. At this point in the books he had already forced a kiss and proclaimed his love.

Does it? Most people I know call Jorah "Ser-friendzone".

Actually I feel the other way, the show made Jorah "love" for Dany more pure, obvious and "romantic", instead of creepy and tasteless like in the books, well... the whole character of Jorah is a lot more likeable and his feelings for Dany easier to sympathize. but that's for another thread :p

[Winnief]

Also, listening to the lines again. Oberyn trusted Rhaegar to look after Elia, and he let him down. I think he's blaming Rhaegar because Elia loved him, but Rhaegar loved someone else. If there had been something worse, he would have said that.

"My sister loved him... Beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her for another woman.

:agree:

I think Season 4 might be when they start dropping hints if not to R+L=J then to at least suggest that the official story that Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna is bogus.

[tsarrast]

Yes - despite Oberyn's womanizing ... it's never quite the same when it happens to your sister!! It's just a case of Oberyn being a bit put off that "beautiful, noble Rheagar" reneged on his marriage vows to abscond with Lyanna. I mean... they had children! And Elia breastfed them herself!

[PhoenixFlame]

Oberyn is promiscuous but he's not married, and he and his paramour are quite the swingers. That's different than his perception of Rhaegar leaving Elia for another lady.

[Illusive_Man]

Does it? Most people I know call Jorah "Ser-friendzone".

Actually I feel the other way, the show made Jorah "love" for Dany more pure, obvious and "romantic", instead of creepy and tasteless like in the books, well... the whole character of Jorah is a lot more likeable and his feelings for Dany easier to sympathize. but that's for another thread :P

True, but the books were far more direct, perhaps "creepy" as you said.

[Winnief]

Oberyn is promiscuous but he's not married, and he and his paramour are quite the swingers. That's different than his perception of Rhaegar leaving Elia for another lady.

Precisely. He and Ellaria are enjoying their sexcapades together as a 'couple' so it's not actually cheating-in the case of Rhaegar he basically abandoned Elia and the children for a year to honeymoon it with Lyanna at the Tower of Joy leaving Elia at the Red Keep alone with her crazy father in law. Oh and by doing so Rhaegar happened to start a civil war that resulted in Elia and her babies dying in an incredibly horrific, gruesome, fashion. You can see why that might color Oberyn's opinion of the matter.

I do worry a little that show-only people are going to find the whole Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna thing a bit confusing, (before we even get started on fAegon) and might not see how Jon could be a legitimate Targaryen heir, even though Rhaegar married Elia first-hopefully they'll establish that multiple wives wasn't unheard of in the dynasty.

[King Zee]

I do worry a little that show-only people are going to find the whole Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna thing a bit confusing, (before we even get started on fAegon) and might not see how Jon could be a legitimate Targaryen heir, even though Rhaegar married Elia first-hopefully they'll establish that multiple wives wasn't unheard of in the dynasty.

That is of course assuming he is legitimate. . . . .