The Curious Case of The Dragon Prince and The Winter Rose 4

[King Benjen II]

'Bed of Blood' does suggest that he was just born, so there was no time to move

IF there was a baby. Lyanna may have taken mortal wounds. Regardless of in book references to birthing beds as beds of blood. GRRM does love his misdirections.

[King Benjen II]

I don't know how many of you are in the health field,i am also an RN and a woman can bleed 4-6 weeks on average after giving birth .Some women only bleed for a week or two. it all depends on how long it takes your uterus to heal. the bleeding comes from your uterus contracting back to normal size, and the bleeding also comes from where the placenta was attached to the uterine wall.Therefore, Lya could have given birth before the events at the Tower.She could have been traveling and infection set in because her Uterus got infected from not healing.

Also from a historical point of view that has to do with just peasent folks the birthing bed is not only limited to giving bith to the child,you have to also give birth or pass the placental sac which is all part of the process and can take some time.

In my work with communites in some countries in Africa,Latin America and the carribean this was a problem that led to high mortality among mothers.Some piece of the placenta will remain causing sepsis ,the mom didn't heal properly on account of poor prenatal/post natal care etc.

It doesn't seem as if Lya was catered to in that way,the Tower didn't seem secure, comfortable or prepared for a woman having birth or even just given birth. Why was is only the KG at the tower,Ned should have run into others.Plus if there were more people there helping her you can't totally silence all of them.It would have leaked.

Which to me says that Lyanna gave birth at Starfall,and she was being escorted back to wherever ? When her health took turn for the worst and they stopped at the Tower.Ned arrived,probably saw a fire in the window or something. Crap hit the fan and Ned finds out from Lya that the baby she had is at Starfall,Ned under the pretense of taking back AD sword collects Jon and his Wet Nurse from there and scene.

Complete agreement :)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

IF there was a baby. Lyanna may have taken mortal wounds. Regardless of in book references to birthing beds as beds of blood. GRRM does love his misdirections.

Or it's both cases. The other day I thought what if Lyanna tried to escape the ToJ by herself? After all, she managed to leave Winterfel without her father knowing (or so we think). It's not entirely impossible that Lyanna intended to find Ned but she was already heavily pregnant and the KG brought her back (or/and was later ordered to keep him inside for her own sake), but she already endangered her pregnancy by running away.

[Armstark]

The order, whether given by Rhaegar or by Aerys, would have been given before Rhaegar rode off to die at the Trident. Essentially there are two alternatives; either Hightower tooled up with the summons from Arrys, and Rhaegar obeyed after himself ordering the three to stay behind, or, Hightower turned up with orders from Rhaegar to secure the babe and the bump and send Rhaegar on his way.

I'm rather inclined to go with the latter. Rhaegar has apparently being ignoring his duty for about a year. No-one, we're told could find him. Aerys, presumably was sending messenger after messenger to recall him without success. Then Hightower turns up. We know that he is the man who places duty above all else and he is the one man in the kingdom who can stand up to Rhaegar and because he is obeying the King.

:agree:

Although I would go with door number one. Either way it was not a 'take her hostage' order.

Aerys Targaryen first of his name

Actually he was the second of his name, not that it is of any great import ;)

[Black Crow]

Actually he was the second of his name, not that it is of any great import ;)

I had this nagging feeling in the back of my mind - what I get for being too lazy to check

[Modesty Lannister]

:agree:

Although I would go with door number one. Either way it was not a 'take her hostage' order.

Actually he was the second of his name, not that it is of any great import ;)

Rhaegar is the crown prince. He cannot give orders to KG. Plain and simple. Could Joffrey order the KG when RObert was alive? No. And Aerys wouldn't order he KG to "keep Lyanna hostage". That's not how orders are given. That's an implication of the order. The order would be "keep guard and don't let her leave". I am sure the KG would give Lyanna all the comfort they could. Just not freedom.

[Black Crow]

Rhaegar is the crown prince. He cannot give orders to KG. Plain and simple.

Er... No.

http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

[Modesty Lannister]

Er... No.

http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

He also said that the KG serves the king first. And he said if prince Rhaegar … I'm sure GRRM can't wait to reveal all his secrets while chatting or giving interviews while keeping us in utter darkness in the books.

[Black Crow]

Yes, but the point is that whether Aerys gave the orders in this case (as I suspect) or whether it was Rhaegar, the latter does have the power to give orders to the Kings Guard.

[Modesty Lannister]

Yes, but the point is that whether Aerys gave the orders in this case (as I suspect) or whether it was Rhaegar, the latter does have the power to give orders to the Kings Guard.

But we don't know if he did, do we? So we can only speculate. And Aerys's order trumps all I'm afraid.

[setmyheartafire]

Ok on the Baelor looking Dornish. Thanks for the clarification. In my mind that means he doesn't have light eyes but no matter. To my mind this is a small detail whichever way you slice it.

I still think that quote means Rhaegar really did give the order to protect Lyanna.

The KG would rather not but they're KG.

On Mance. So do you think then that Aegon really is Mance Rhaegar's, and he AND Dalla's boy will be the other two dragon heads with Jon?

Just curious.

[Modesty Lannister]

Ok on the Baelor looking Dornish. Thanks for the clarification. In my mind that means he doesn't have light eyes but no matter. To my mind this is a small detail whichever way you slice it.

I still think that quote means Rhaegar really did give the order to protect Lyanna.

The KG would rather not but they're KG.

On Mance. So do you think then that Aegon really is Mance Rhaegar's, and he AND Dalla's boy will be the other two dragon heads with Jon?

Just curious.

If we wait for Dalla's boy to ride a dragon, GRRM will kill everyone in Westeros.

[Armstark]

But we don't know if he did, do we? So we can only speculate. And Aerys's order trumps all I'm afraid.

Are you too modest to admit to a mistake?

The whole point of the discussion was to speculate who gave what orders. You dismissed the possibility that it was Rhaegar because he could not give them orders. You were wrong.

[Modesty Lannister]

Are you too modest to admit to a mistake?

The whole point of the discussion was to speculate who gave what orders. You dismissed the possibility that it was Rhaegar because he could not give them orders. You were wrong.

My theory does not depend on who had the right to give orders. If Rhaegar gave an order to KG to wear dresses, play music and prance around the ToJ it is totally irrelevant, because any order of ANY member of the Royal Family gets trumped by any order of the king. And my theory is that king Aerys told the KG to keep Lyanna in the ToJ. I think that's why she died btw. She gave birth to Jon (we assume) and died at childbirth in the middle of nowhere. If Rhaegar was giving orders to the KG, he would not order anything that would endanger the woman who is about to give birth to his child. If the order was to keep her where she was (effectively hostage) as I assume, no real help could be provided to her in case of childbirth complications. And Aerys would not really care, would he.

[Metopheles]

On Mance. So do you think then that Aegon really is Mance Rhaegar's, and he AND Dalla's boy will be the other two dragon heads with Jon?

Just curious.

Me, not at all. I think there will not really be three heads. If then Daenerys as supreme queen with jon as second head and Mance for the time he has and then either Jon and Dany's kid or the wildling prince, Aemon.

Tyrion may or may not become Hand, but that is not a head for me.

But only Targs should be dragon heads.

To those who hang up themselves on who gave the KG orders ;) :

What if the three KG there were a coup d'etat thing from Rhaegar? They already only listened to him and prepared for a strike to depose Aerys. So they were really Rhaegar's. We know Dayne was besties with Rhaegar, maybe the others too.. so they planned to remove Aerys and keep Lyanna there. Or save, anywhere. From anyone.

I still think Lyanna did not want to be rescued. She was afraid that she would be married off to that brute Robert. So that's why she ran in the first place.

Another thing, the KG may have held here there because she was too weak.

They grew fond of her, like Arys of Myrcella, and would let their lives for her. We don't know, so don't exclude this.

I can quite imagine Lyanna wanting to be away from her father and probably her family. She might not hate her brothers, but she might well hate her father. So she sees her brother coming to take her home, so she says to the KG "keep him away". Anyone who has seen films like "Die Fremde" with Sibel Kekilli, know that a girl might still love her family and brothers, but if she sees them coming to carry out orders from the loved, but feared father, she might turn against them.

[Armstark]

My theory does not depend on who had the right to give orders. If Rhaegar gave an order to KG to wear dresses, play music and prance around the ToJ it is totally irrelevant, because any order of ANY member of the Royal Family gets trumped by any order of the king. And my theory is that king Aerys told the KG to keep Lyanna in the ToJ. I think that's why she died btw. She gave birth to Jon (we assume) and died at childbirth in the middle of nowhere. If Rhaegar was giving orders to the KG, he would not order anything that would endanger the woman who is about to give birth to his child. If the order was to keep her where she was (effectively hostage) as I assume, no real help could be provided to her in case of childbirth complications. And Aerys would not really care, would he.

Well there is some evidence that there were some other people at the ToJ. I don't believe Ned and Howland demolished the tower all by themselves and dug seven graves while nursing a newborn babe. So there could have been a midwife present (maybe Wyllah).

[setmyheartafire]

To Metopheles: Agreed on that somewhat. I have to be honest as a woman and say that even if I lived in Westeros and I believed strongly in doing the honorable thing for my family, I would fight like the devil to be with the man I love and I would fight to my last breath against anyone trying to part me from him. Even family. And if they kept insisting I be with someone else they'd be in the doghouse or worse, cut off completely.

You just don't tell me who to love, or expect me to be with someone I can't while I love someone else, man.

So it's not impossible for Lyanna to perceive a threat in any member of her family, or to have actually grown to despise them.

Personally I don't think she intended such dramatic consequences though.

[King Benjen II]

I agree, these are real possibilities and should be kept on the table, even if the strongest likelihood, since it best explains the behavior of the KG, is that there's a baby heir apparent in the tower.

No, as has been pointed out on thread, a baby heir apparent in the tower does not best explain the KG behavior.

You don't leave him in the tower at the mercy of your enemy should you all 3 die. At least 1 would have taken off with him and 2 make a fight of it or all 3 defend from inside the tower if their goal was the safety of an heir apparent.

[Metopheles]

To Metopheles: Agreed on that somewhat. I have to be honest as a woman and say that even if I lived in Westeros and I believed strongly in doing the honorable thing for my family, I would fight like the devil to be with the man I love and I would fight to my last breath against anyone trying to part me from him. Even family. And if they kept insisting I be with someone else they'd be in the doghouse or worse, cut off completely.

You just don't tell me who to love, or expect me to be with someone I can't while I love someone else, man.

So it's not impossible for Lyanna to perceive a threat in any member of her family, or to have actually grown to despise them.

Personally I don't think she intended such dramatic consequences though.

I think it doesn't matter if Lyanna loved Rhaegar. She might have just thought he could protect her. She saw that he was powerful in many ways and thought "That guy could help me" and went with him. Maybe they had a little romance, not necessarily real love. But Rhaegar gave her comfort and love and protection. He would be king after all, he could undo the wedding between Bob and Lyanna. And maybe Lyanna really feared her family. After all Hoster Tully and Arryn and so seemed all quite .... and as a girl there.. you were basically meat. This is wedding pacts and arranged marriages. Lysa loved LF and all, we see how crazy these fathers are. Only because Cat went with the marriage and accepted her fathers for it doesn't mean everyone would. I kinda like this sub theory of Lyanna getting the rose, having a little crush, rushing to Rhaegar and talking a bit, no love, and then coming to the subject of Robert. Rhaegar could have offered to help her, and did, and then it escalated. But in the meantime they went from saviour scenario to a romance and then resulted in a kid. Wanted or not. So Rhaegar further helped her and protected her and ran themselves into trouble and more chaos, but all for protecting her to be married of to a man she might have considered a brute.

Then she sees her brother coming "oh I come to take you home, Robert made a war for you, father promised a wedding"

[Modesty Lannister]

Well there is some evidence that there were some other people at the ToJ. I don't believe Ned and Howland demolished the tower all by themselves and dug seven graves while nursing a newborn babe. So there could have been a midwife present (maybe Wyllah).

I never said she was alone, did I? I just said she may have died due to the inadequate help during labour. I don't see a maester in the ToJ.