[BOOK SPOILERS] Where will season 5 end?

[Essan]

Much of the criticism of AFFC and ADWD is that 'nothing happens'

There's likely to be more - much more - happen in TWOW and ADOS (and that's assuming there are indeed only 2 more books to come!).

I think Season 5 has to end as ADWD was originally intended to - with the battles of Meereen and Winterfell - for there to be any possible way of fitting everything into 7 seasons.

[Blutrabe]

I don't know how they'll handle the Iron Islands storyline, but I think you're way off base if you think they're cutting out Dorne. They've mentioned Prince Doran multiple times throughout this season, repeatedly reminded viewers about Myrcella being in Dorne, and even mentioned the Sand Snakes in this most recent episode. I don't have any doubts that we'll get quite a lot of Dorne next season based on that. They're doing a lot to set up all of that stuff early.

The only storyline from AFFC/ADWD that I could spilling over into season 6 is Jon's. Stannis's skirmish will need to happen before the Pink Letter can be sent. Also, if D&D need to expand on anything, they can make Jon be the one that negotiates with the Wildlings to come through the Wall instead of Val. They can even expand Hardhome if they need to come up with an appearance for the Others.

If the show followed the books more closely and wanted to spend two whole seasons with AFFC/ADWD, then I could see this happen. There is some sort of break in Jon's arc halfway through ADWD. The first half ends with Stannis leaving Castle Black, Jon sending Mance to resuce "Arya" and some Wildlings joining the Watch. The second half deals with Queen Selyse, Alys Karstark, Tormund and Hardhome.

However, I'm pretty sure the show wants to get done with most arcs at the end of S5. Tormund is already at the Wall, therefore I'm convinced that they will combine the Wildlings captured by Stannis with Tormund's host. So there will be only one event of Wildlings passing through the Wall, and Tormund will be their leader instead of Sigorn. Furthermore, there is as yet no sign of Val and/or Dalla on the show and I can't see any of them cast as late as S5 (I wonder if they would leave out Mance's son completely). Alys Karstark will very likely be cut because the show doesn't typically delve into such detailed politics.

I've put some thought into breaking down the Wall and the Northern arcs for S5. Here is what I've come up with:

Episode 1-3: Jon deals with Stannis; Mel warns Jon of "daggers in the dark"; Jon sends Sam, Gilly and Aemon to Oldtown; Jon executes Janos Slynt.

Episode 4: Stannis sacrifices "Mance" and lets Tormund's Wildlings through the Wall.

Episode 5: Stannis leaves Castle Black early on. Melisandre reveals the real Mance to Jon, who sends him to rescue "Arya".

Episode 6-8: Jon negotiates with Tormund; some Wildlings take the Black; they find Wun Wun; Jon sends out the Hardhome mission; Stannis marches through the snow and sets up camp at the frozen lake.

Episode 7: Ramsay marries "Arya". Theon and "Arya" flee later on with Mance's aid.

Episode 8: Theon and "Arya" arrive at Stannis' camp

Episode 9: Battle on the Ice

Episode 10: Pink letter, Jon's stabbing

By the way, I would focus episode 9 completely on the Battle of Ice and Meereen (fighting pit scene). An awesome name for the episode would be "Ice and Fire".

[Chebyshov]

<snip>

This seems reasonable to me, and I think you're definitely right about Tormund's host being the Wildlings let through the wall. Keeps it simple, and cuts out extraneous characters.

6-8 might be a little thin on Jon content, but given that's the timeframe where the Fighting Pit would likely fall, I think it would work.

[Adam H]

I think the best and easiest way to end S5 with the Battles of Meereen and Winterfell is to get rid of Dorne, Ironborn, and possibly characters like Bran and Brienne (end their storylines at the end of S4) altogether.

It's possible we have seen the last of Bran's POV in the books and from here on out we'll only hear his voice. Definitely depends on Jon's storyline. So maybe the actor's about to leave the show. I imagine HBO would jump on the opportunity to cull the cast a bit.

Anyways, I think there's a chance they don't show Dorne/Iron Islands, and IMO it wouldn't be a bad thing. Dany already has her ships in the show. I don't think Quentyn's storyline is essential. It obviously depends on how the story ends (especially with Victarion's horn), but it seems to me like they only need to do the following:

1) Have someone from Dorne evade questions about Myrcella's safety and imply that Myrcella is the rightful ruler of Westeros.

2) Have a Tyrell mention that Euron is the new king of the Iron Islands and is raiding the Reach.

3) Introduce Arienne when Aegon lands, possibly not until S6.

Alternatively, they could go into detail with the Dorne and Iron Islands plots, as well as adding new Bran stuff. Then I can't see them fitting AFFC, ADWD, and the beginning of WoW into 1 season, and they might as well make them two entire seasons, which has the added bonus of giving GRRM a chance to finish WoW.

[JagLover]

I think the best and easiest way to end S5 with the Battles of Meereen and Winterfell is to get rid of Dorne, Ironborn, and possibly characters like Bran and Brienne (end their storylines at the end of S4) altogether.

It's possible we have seen the last of Bran's POV in the books and from here on out we'll only hear his voice. Definitely depends on Jon's storyline. So maybe the actor's about to leave the show. I imagine HBO would jump on the opportunity to cull the cast a bit.

Anyways, I think there's a chance they don't show Dorne/Iron Islands, and IMO it wouldn't be a bad thing. Dany already has her ships in the show. I don't think Quentyn's storyline is essential. It obviously depends on how the story ends (especially with Victarion's horn), but it seems to me like they only need to do the following:

1) Have someone from Dorne evade questions about Myrcella's safety and imply that Myrcella is the rightful ruler of Westeros.

2) Have a Tyrell mention that Euron is the new king of the Iron Islands and is raiding the Reach.

3) Introduce Arienne when Aegon lands, possibly not until S6.

Alternatively, they could go into detail with the Dorne and Iron Islands plots, as well as adding new Bran stuff. Then I can't see them fitting AFFC, ADWD, and the beginning of WoW into 1 season, and they might as well make them two entire seasons, which has the added bonus of giving GRRM a chance to finish WoW.

I have hope that the producers will make the right decisions in order to convert AFFC/ADWD and based on what they have done so far that hope may be realised!

To convert AFFC/ADWD into something that could be fitted into S5 and part of S4 I would do the following

1. Heavily cut the Brienne storyline. How many chapters were taken up with her wandering around looking for Sansa?. Instead have her head straight toward the confrontation at the inn, where her story again has relevance to everything else that is going on. As far as I can see that is exactly what they are doing and in S4 no less!. You are right that she would then need to sit out most of a season as Jamie did in S2.

2. Remove virtually every ironborn storyline. This show is not only for the benefit of book readers and is already complex enough. Keep Asha and Theon and lose the rest of it. Given the total lack of any setup for the Ironborn next season that looks to be something they are considering.

3. Remove Faegon from the story entirely-which leads on to point 4

4. Heavily compress Tyrion's journey to Mereen. If Catelyn can leave Winterfell one episode and arrive in KL the next then Tyrion can take a damn sight less than an entire season to reach Mereen and have relevance to the story again. Given that Dany is already moving into ADWD material while Tyrion is locked up means that this is a strong possibility.

5. Either remove Quentyn entirely or just have him show up in Mereen without going into his travels.

Do all of the above and there is time to give every other character close to their full ADWD/AFFC material and end with the battle of Mereen!

[Winnief]

I have hope that the producers will make the right decisions in order to convert AFFC/ADWD and based on what they have done so far that hope may be realised!

To convert AFFC/ADWD into something that could be fitted into S5 and part of S4 I would do the following

1. Heavily cut the Brienne storyline. How many chapters were taken up with her wandering around looking for Sansa?. Instead have her head straight toward the confrontation at the inn, where her story again has relevance to everything else that is going on. As far as I can see that is exactly what they are doing and in S4 no less!. You are right that she would then need to sit out most of a season as Jamie did in S2.

2. Remove virtually every ironborn storyline. This show is not only for the benefit of book readers and is already complex enough. Keep Asha and Theon and lose the rest of it. Given the total lack of any setup for the Ironborn next season that looks to be something they are considering.

3. Remove Faegon from the story entirely-which leads on to point 4

4. Heavily compress Tyrion's journey to Mereen. If Catelyn can leave Winterfell one episode and arrive in KL the next then Tyrion can take a damn sight less than an entire season to reach Mereen and have relevance to the story again. Given that Dany is already moving into ADWD material while Tyrion is locked up means that this is a strong possibility.

5. Either remove Quentyn entirely or just have him show up in Mereen without going into his travels.

Do all of the above and there is time to give every other character close to their full ADWD/AFFC material and end with the battle of Mereen!

Agreed, except about removing the IB entirely, (with them losing so many good villains this season and next, I think they may want to bring in Euron next season to be the new guy we love to hate once Ramsay inevitably kicks it-quite possibly during the Battle of Ice)-I think that by eliminating FakeArya, they'll have time. My theory is that Yara will be taken prisoner by Roose, who will decide not to let Ramsay 'damage' this prisoner since he needs her intact...but that next season Ramsay may be more a threat to her-or event try to "marry" her which will prompt Theon to escape with her after which they get found by Stannis. I also think, Rickon and Osha will appear again sooner, and we'll deal with their return as a way for Stannis to rally the North.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I think the last scene of S05 will be Varys killing Kevan and Pycelle- the walk of shame will be in the 9th episode.

[Hath4]

To me euron is a must have, he is pretty much the evil version of the red viper.

[six]

I have hope that the producers will make the right decisions in order to convert AFFC/ADWD and based on what they have done so far that hope may be realised!

To convert AFFC/ADWD into something that could be fitted into S5 and part of S4 I would do the following

1. Heavily cut the Brienne storyline. How many chapters were taken up with her wandering around looking for Sansa?. Instead have her head straight toward the confrontation at the inn, where her story again has relevance to everything else that is going on. As far as I can see that is exactly what they are doing and in S4 no less!. You are right that she would then need to sit out most of a season as Jamie did in S2.

2. Remove virtually every ironborn storyline. This show is not only for the benefit of book readers and is already complex enough. Keep Asha and Theon and lose the rest of it. Given the total lack of any setup for the Ironborn next season that looks to be something they are considering.

3. Remove Faegon from the story entirely-which leads on to point 4

4. Heavily compress Tyrion's journey to Mereen. If Catelyn can leave Winterfell one episode and arrive in KL the next then Tyrion can take a damn sight less than an entire season to reach Mereen and have relevance to the story again. Given that Dany is already moving into ADWD material while Tyrion is locked up means that this is a strong possibility.

5. Either remove Quentyn entirely or just have him show up in Mereen without going into his travels.

Do all of the above and there is time to give every other character close to their full ADWD/AFFC material and end with the battle of Mereen!

I doubt they'll remove that much stuff. They might remove/combine all the minor characters and imo they should, but the storylines will all be there.

And there's no way fAegon won't be there.

[relish5k]

The way I see S5 its about new found 'power' for 3 characters. Jon, as the new Lord Commander, Cersei as Regent and Dany ruling Meereen. By the end they've all either lost that power or f****ed it up. That's where the season should end. Jon gets stabbed, Dany flies off on Drogon and Cersei's arrest or penance walk.

These are the 3 central story arcs and all other story lines' timing should fit in with these 3.

I really like that set up! I agree that Cersei's arrest would be the best ending for S5, saving the penance walk for early in S6. The first episode would make for a killer opener, but I think 2 or 3 is more realistic since I think by that time the audience would like to see her pouting in jail and then submitting to her fate.

If Quentyn Martell is going to have a meaningful storyline in the show then I like the idea of him meeting up with Tyrion. Maybe he buys Jorah and Tyrion so that they can take him to Dany? Then he releases the dragons after getting rejected and Dany flying off is one of the last shots of S5 EP10. That way the battle for Mereen can begin in earnest in S6.

[relish5k]

I am starting to wonder what Brienne , Sansa and Bran will do next season :dunno:

Seconded. D&D have said that Bran is the only one who gets to have dreams/visions so I'm guessing he will be having lots of them in S6 as Jojen and Meera and Hodor chill with the children. I think S6, or maybe even late S5 would be a great time for Bran to see things like the tourney at Harrenhal/Knight of the laughing tree and the Tower of Joy.

As for Brienne and Sansa though, based on book material alone and the way their story lines are being paced this season, it seems like they would have 1 or 2 episodes of plot at most in S5. I guess for Sansa they can kind of drag on the whole "Littlefinger is poisoning Robin" angle for 2 episodes? Brienne though, no idea.

But that's what makes it all so exciting! I like seeing how the show deviates from the books.

[Colonel Green]

Seconded. D&D have said that Bran is the only one who gets to have dreams/visions so I'm guessing he will be having lots of them in S6 as Jojen and Meera and Hodor chill with the children. I think S6, or maybe even late S5 would be a great time for Bran to see things like the tourney at Harrenhal/Knight of the laughing tree and the Tower of Joy.

Just based on the show's style, I tend to think any visions related to Lyanna, Rhaegar, etc. will be saved until the actual reveal of Jon's origins. That would mean that those visions could be depicted as some semblance of a story, rather than just having Bran sit around and go "my, how interesting!" and then there being no further development regarding it.

I'm not really sure what to make of their plans for Sansa in season 5. The throwaway way the "Alayne" identity was introduced really seems to weigh against them doing anything significant with that psychodrama (though I was already uncertain how they were going to make that work). I've seen speculation that "Only Cat" is in episode 7, which I'm skeptical of, though there's a non-zero chance -- and if that's the case, the appearance of the Vale lords in the finale raises the possibility of as much as two-thirds of her AFFC story being effectively covered by the end of this season.

[Winnief]

I'm not really sure what to make of their plans for Sansa in season 5. The throwaway way the "Alayne" identity was introduced really seems to weigh against them doing anything significant with that psychodrama (though I was already uncertain how they were going to make that work). I've seen speculation that "Only Cat" is in episode 7, which I'm skeptical of, though there's a non-zero chance -- and if that's the case, the appearance of the Vale lords in the finale raises the possibility of as much as two-thirds of her AFFC story being effectively covered by the end of this season.

I think with Sansa we could definitely be getting into TWOW territory-it will be interesting to see if they cast Harry the Heir for instance.

Also, when Martin discussed Sansa's escape from KL, he phrased it as "her going up North." Now obviously, Sansa was going to head up North from the Vale at *some* point in the books, but maybe that will be happening earlier in the show where for reasons of narrative, (as well as pacing) it makes sense for them to get as many characters as possible to the Wall to deal with the growing White Walker issue.

[Colonel Green]

Also, when Martin discussed Sansa's escape from KL, he phrased it as "her going up North." Now obviously, Sansa was going to head up North from the Vale at *some* point in the books, but maybe that will be happening earlier in the show where for reasons of narrative, (as well as pacing) it makes sense for them to get as many characters as possible to the Wall to deal with the growing White Walker issue.

I think he just meant "going up north". She's north of King's Landing at present. I don't think Sansa's TWOW story is likely to take her up north in a hurry, in any event; there just doesn't seem to me to be anywhere near as much for her to potentially do there at the moment compared to the south, where the grand political story she's been enmeshed in will begin to sort itself out.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I'm concerned about the whole plot to crown Myrcella to be honest, because even though it may very well have some lasting consequences (mainly Myrcella's maiming and the introduction of Darkstar, who I actually think will be important), when we compare it to some of the other storylines, well, it really amounts to nothing:

The whole plan fails, some terciary boring characters get killed or exiled, Myrcella (apparently) survives, and Doran reveals his master plan, which lately turns out to be a massive failure

People complain a lot about the Iron Islands storyline, and understandably because some of the POVs there are downright tedious, but the whole kingsmoot thing has huge implications for almost every other storyline: Asha flees to the North and meets Stannis and Theon, Victarion goes to find Dany, and Euron attacks the Reach, which starts the destruction of the Lannister-Tyrell

[JagLover]

People complain a lot about the Iron Islands storyline, and understandably because some of the POVs there are downright tedious, but the whole kingsmoot thing has huge implications for almost every other storyline: Asha flees to the North and meets Stannis and Theon, Victarion goes to find Dany, and Euron attacks the Reach, which starts the destruction of the Lannister-Tyrell

In AFFC/ADWD all of the characters are so spread out that very little they do directly impacts on anyone else. Hence it is very easy to omit whole plot lines.

Asha is already in the north (rescuing Theon). The Lannisters and Tyrells can self destruct their own alliance quite easily, particularly when Cersei is in charge! and about the only useful function of Victorian is to transport Dany to Westeros, and in the show she has far more ships!

Now I don't think the Dornish will be omitted as we already have them set up quite heavily. The gardens and the sand snakes have all be mentioned. In contrast the Ironborn, even characters already introduced, are barely in the story. The show has deliberately set about showing why they aren't needed for Dany, at any rate, by her capturing enough ships to transport 10,000 men.

[JagLover]

I doubt they'll remove that much stuff. They might remove/combine all the minor characters and imo they should, but the storylines will all be there.

And there's no way fAegon won't be there.

Lets wait and see. As I said that is what you would need to do to reach the battle of Mereen by Ep 9/10, if that is not their plan (a mistake IMO) then maybe we will see more characters introduced.

How they treat the Brienne storyline will give us a big indication of how heavily they will condense AFFC/ADWD material in S5

[Winnief]

In AFFC/ADWD all of the characters are so spread out that very little they do directly impacts on anyone else. Hence it is very easy to omit whole plot lines.

Asha is already in the north (rescuing Theon). The Lannisters and Tyrells can self destruct their own alliance quite easily, particularly when Cersei is in charge! and about the only useful function of Victorian is to transport Dany to Westeros, and in the show she has far more ships!

Now I don't think the Dornish will be omitted as we already have them set up quite heavily. The gardens and the sand snakes have all be mentioned. In contrast the Ironborn, even characters already introduced, are barely in the story. The show has deliberately set about showing why they aren't needed for Dany, at any rate, by her capturing enough ships to transport 10,000 men.

I definitely agree with the point about the ships-obviously they ain't bringing in Victarion and good riddance-but Euron might well make it, as a potential immediate military threat to the Lannister/Tyrell alliance-and because the writers may not be able to resist the bit, where Cersei in a moment of breathtaking pettiness refuses to send the Redwyne fleet off to the Reach to deal with the problem right away, simply to spite the Tyrells. (Though they may not include Loras's maiming and near death on Dragonstone-especially if he's going to substitute for Garlan and Willas in whatever they're scheduled to do.)

And I agree they'll skip the whole Kingsmoot and we lose Damphair for sure. But they might just announce that Euron Greyjoy has mysteriously returned after his brother's death and have him start his piracy campaign and hint at his involvement with Dark Powers and Blood Magic.

I suppose it depends on how important-or not- Euron Greyjoy is in TWOW...

I definitely agree they're setting up Dorne but I think events are going to unfold rather differently...Cersei's sending that ship suggests to me that Cersei is trying to retrieve/rescue Myrcella via violence if necessary...and I think that could go very, VERY badly, possibly resulting in Myrcella's maiming, and really kicking the Dornish intrigue into high gear. Especially if Cersei's "rescue effort" involved a possible attack on Prince Trystane.

[Hath4]

to me cutting out the ironbron to me seems like a huge mistake. they play such a huge part in the story, if they are cut that massivly changes the battle of fire, I will never understand why people want to remove a storyline that leads to one of the most exciting portions of books 4 and 5, the kingsmoot. Are there some boring parts in their stoyline yes, but that can be streamlined for the show. it would be a massive change that i just do not see them doing. It would be by far the bigest change yet.

[Mickys]

unfortunately ADWD is populated with new characters, some are important and others not so much. they have to necessary cut some plot lines/characters, unless they decrease Bran, Brienne or Sansa screentime, to make space for the new ones. which, imo, is the solution.