[Book Spoilers] R+L=J and other theories on HBO

[MoIaF]

Or Kit's perfect comedic timing when he talks about Jon's mother:

Oh, he's had more than one slip-up.;)

Has anyone read the Rolling Stone interview where Kit mentions there will be one "last colorful wedding"?

[Onna Lewyys]

Oh yeah, we talked about that. OBVIOUSLY he's talking about Jon & Dany's, and it's going to be silver. ;)

[MoIaF]

Oh yeah, we talked about that. OBVIOUSLY he's talking about Jon & Dany's, and it's going to be silver. ;)

Definitely silver. :D I was wondering id there was anything else interesting about the interview.

I do have to say that's a pretty big spoiler, if it's at all accurate.

[ACVG]

in the synopsis of the episode, hbo wrote "nights king" as the special ww who converts the baby's eyes blue, then quickly edited it to say WW again.... interesting

[Onna Lewyys]

I really think that was just a mistake. I don't think it makes sense anyway.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Definitely silver. :D I was wondering id there was anything else interesting about the interview.

I do have to say that's a pretty big spoiler, if it's at all accurate.

I dont think the actors are privy to end of the books. From all the interviews I have seen, none of the actors have even read the books (so lame). So I doubt he knew what he was talking about.

[MoIaF]

I dont think the actors are privy to end of the books. From all the interviews I have seen, none of the actors have even read the books (so lame). So I doubt he knew what he was talking about.

Oh yeah, some have read the books. I know for sure that both Kit and Emilia have said they've read the books. GRRM told Alfie who Jon's parents were, so he might be more open to telling the actors in order for them to prepare for their roles or D&D might tell them.

I donno...

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Oh yeah, some have read the books. I know for sure that both Kit and Emilia have said they've read the books. GRRM told Alfie who Jon's parents were, so he might be more open to telling the actors in order for them to prepare for their roles or D&D might tell them.

I donno...

Well I am glad Kit and Emilia have at least, considering who they are :)

He told Alfie?!?!? that's nuts!!

[MoIaF]

Well I am glad Kit and Emilia have at least, considering who they are :)

He told Alfie?!?!? that's nuts!!

Yeah - that's when he made those Star Wars comments "Luke, I'm your father"....

[Seneti]

At least Ghost has red eyes again. Last season he had brown eyes.

I am convinced this show is trying to tell me Margaery is going to be betrothed to Jon Snow one day. I made a post about it last season, when I noticed for the second season in a row in trailers they jump cut to Jon Snow every time they have Margaery saying she wants to be queen. In the actual season 2 and 3 each time she is talking about either being queen or marrying the king what do they do? Jump to Jon Snow next scene. Last night? Same. Her conversation with Olenna about her past and then talking again about marrying the king and being queen is over, what happens? Cut to Jon Snow.

At first I thought I was reading to much into it. Not anymore. This happens in season 2, 3, and now 4. To much for it to be a coincidence. And as has been pointed out before they do edit the show and the scenes together to match the previous one.

Then Olenna says "marrying a Targaryen was quite the rage!".

It might be now again

That would actually be quite... interesting. Margaery certainly has enough political savvy and grace to make a good queen. I think her pragmatic approach could certainly help save Jon from his Stark heritage (honor before reason getting you killed). Thanks for giving me my new favorite crack pairing... and a great idea for fan art...

That interview was hysterical and George was totally riling the crowd up. It was his idea to have them vote. ;)

It's funny at the end when Kit tells George to get writing on the sex scene, George starts laughing. :lol:

*lol* For interviews are dark and full of spoilers...

[Steve Stark]

The link is here: http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

There's also this excerpt from Ned's fever dream about the Tower of Joy to consider.

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

That bolded passage is what really convinced me when I read the books looking for evidence of Jon's legitimate status. Either Hightower, Dayne, and Whent loved Rhaegar so much that they were willing to honor his last command at the expense of their oath - or they genuinely believed that they were protecting the heir to the Iron Throne.

To direct this conversation back to the TV show, however, I don't believe that the true nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship and Jon's status will be explicitly revealed for at least another season or two. At this point in the narrative, that information is extraneous, and not particularly relevant to the present conflicts in which the audience is currently invested. Benioff and Weiss likely want the reveal to have the maximum possible impact, and that won't be until the endgame of the series is within sight - late in Season 6 or early in Season 7, most likely.

When the time comes, the general consensus seems to be that the show will use Bran's abilities - specifically his visions of the past, to introduce the saga of Rhaegar and Lyanna (this will also have the benefit of fleshing out Bran's storyline, which is otherwise likely to be sparse). Howland Reed and/or Wylla could also be introduced as needed, but seeing as they haven't been seen in the books yet, it's hard to predict when or how they might appear.

Point well made.

I was already a believer of the theory, but this was a great argument. I have seen several like this. This too is one of the greatest hints in the book that got me to believe in the theory myself. I had suspicions on the first read, then my interest was peaked when I listened to Roy Dotrice's audiobook version. This passage of the book is the one that sold me, although there are many others that certainly helped.

[Waxfoot]

Point well made.

I was already a believer of the theory, but this was a great argument. I have seen several like this. This too is one of the greatest hints in the book that got me to believe in the theory myself. I had suspicions on the first read, then my interest was peaked when I listened to Roy Dotrice's audiobook version. This passage of the book is the one that sold me, although there are many others that certainly helped.

Out of interest, why did the audiobook version consolidate your belief? I've not heard the audio. I'm also a believer in this theory and think that whilst a lot of fan theories are a lot of fun, they are mostly unlikely to be true. This one and the one about Oberyn poisoning Tywin both ring true though!

[When Harry met Sansa]

Binhorde I am digging the Kavinsky Nightcall avatar.

Also, just to play devil's advocate here, how is everyone so convinced that Jon is even alive atm? I'd like to hear opinions if possible so I can see where they line up with my own theory(ies).

[Steve Stark]

Out of interest, why did the audiobook version consolidate your belief? I've not heard the audio. I'm also a believer in this theory and think that whilst a lot of fan theories are a lot of fun, they are mostly unlikely to be true. This one and the one about Oberyn poisoning Tywin both ring true though!

I read it the first time and thought something was up, but didn't know what it was. I knew Lyanna's death meant something, but my first read there was so much going on that hell...I didn't even remember the entire book to be honest, let alone solidify the Jon theory.

But then I listened to it while running, and while driving to and from work. I think the same thing would have happened if I had read it a second time. At the same time, maybe not. Listening to it takes a very long time, and Roy Dotrice does a GREAT job. I loved it, and felt like I was there. Being the second time I was going through the story, I had a lot of "there we go, I knew it!" moments.

It was the third time though, when I read it (I've only read/listened to the first book 3 times, the rest I've only read twice) that I fully realized the theory. I would get to certain points and reread them several times. It pretty much made me believe in the theory before I knew it was a theory.

Then when I waited years for the next book to come out, I joined the forums and found THE theory (after posting it for myself like an idiot since I didn't know what R+L=J was). With all of the stuff people had puzzled together and put in one place, I became 110% sure that the theory was sound.

[Steve Stark]

Binhorde I am digging the Kavinsky Nightcall avatar.

Also, just to play devil's advocate here, how is everyone so convinced that Jon is even alive atm? I'd like to hear opinions if possible so I can see where they line up with my own theory(ies).

I know many have speculated that because it was a "blackout" finish, Jon is thus alive. This is due to the fact that other characters who have "died" with black out chapters, they tend to be very much alive. People that die in GRRMs world usually die in such an explicit way that there is no doubt...other than let's say Cat and Beric Dondarrion...but technically they were dead. So people either think that Jon will come back due to something of that nature, since it was a Red Priest who brought them to life as well so why couldn't Mel do it for him...or he's simply not dead. There are all sorts of theories. I don't know which one to believe, but I think George is just messing with everyone and believe Jon's story is not done.

EDIT: Oh, and if he is indeed dead, R+L still = J in my opinion. But he's not gone. His story isn't over. I've actually got money on this theory with a close friend of mine, because I'm confident that I'm right. He simply hates the theory, and bet money just in spite of the theory itself. He's not so sure any more, because of course after we made the bet I'm pretty sure I sold him on it. He'll be paying up one day...several years from now. :cool4:

[Hangover of the Morning]

I'd love it if they hinted that Oberyn poisoned Tywin but I think it is highly unlikely.

R+L=J is happening for sure but not for another 2-3 season.

I believe that majority of the prophecies are more or less pointless for the overall outcome of the story (I don't think we will be able to pinpoint when exactly or even if they get fulfilled and there will be million different interpretations) so I am happy with them getting cut.

[When Harry met Sansa]

I know many have speculated that because it was a "blackout" finish, Jon is thus alive. This is due to the fact that other characters who have "died" with black out chapters, they tend to be very much alive. People that die in GRRMs world usually die in such an explicit way that there is no doubt...other than let's say Cat and Beric Dondarrion...but technically they were dead. So people either think that Jon will come back due to something of that nature, since it was a Red Priest who brought them to life as well so why couldn't Mel do it for him...or he's simply not dead. There are all sorts of theories. I don't know which one to believe, but I think George is just messing with everyone and believe Jon's story is not done.

This has always been one of the biggest reasons to believe in Jon being alive, aside from GRRM saying something along the lines of "Oh, you think he's dead do you? Mwahhahahahaha! Am I one twisted sadistic f***** or what?" (Okay, that second part was definitely made up). It's entirely possible that he warged into Ghost while being stabbed and his body is being naturally preserved in an ice cell for Mel to Rez him. Or that he simply is just wounded (he's got a bunch of wool and leather and layers on and basically none of the four wounds were to vital areas/organs). It will be interesting to see how quickly in TWoW we learn the answer.

I'd also agree that even if he is somehow dead R+L=J will still be intact because why wouldn't it be? Plus that would just allow GRRM to continue to troll readers and I'm sure he'd love to see the reaction once something else everyone would love to see comes true, only to throw it right in our faces because Jon is actually dead.

[Onna Lewyys]

Also, just to play devil's advocate here, how is everyone so convinced that Jon is even alive atm? I'd like to hear opinions if possible so I can see where they line up with my own theory(ies).

I believe Martin said that Jon would eventually find out about his mother, and that can't happen if he's dead. I believe he also said that he's not adding any new POVs going forward, so there's no one to take over at the Wall if he's dead, and the Wall is where shit is getting real. So I take it as a given that he's going to live.

[Chebyshov]

I believe Martin said that Jon would eventually find out about his mother, and that can't happen if he's dead. I believe he also said that he's not adding any new POVs going forward, so there's no one to take over at the Wall if he's dead, and the Wall is where shit is getting real. So I take it as a given that he's going to live.

Didn't he have that slip-up too where he said "what Jon's arc is gonna be" or something along those lines?

[Steve Stark]

I believe Martin said that Jon would eventually find out about his mother, and that can't happen if he's dead. I believe he also said that he's not adding any new POVs going forward, so there's no one to take over at the Wall if he's dead, and the Wall is where shit is getting real. So I take it as a given that he's going to live.

True. But of course it could be in a million forms. How crappy would it be if Bran "double wargs" into Ghost while Jon is there, and says, "Hey man, Lyanna was your mother. My dad wasn't your dad. Technically you could have been the king...if you hadn't, you know....become a wolf. Love you cousin! At least you're not a tree!"

If that happened, I might personally fly to Sante Fe and give George a piece of my mind. :D