[Book Spoilers] R+L=J and other theories on HBO

[MoIaF]

Lol, that's his guess, right? :lol:

Anyway, yeah, sometimes people come up with all these theories about how the dragons (or 2 of them) are going to die even before Dany makes it to Westeros (by book 7?). Come on, those are meant to fight the Others. Why else would they be included.

I think the dragons serve a purpose and are significant, but how effective are they in full on winter?

Weren't Aegons dragons grounded in a rainstorm?

Well, the dragons are definitely meant to fight the Wights / Others. About them being ground we don't' actually know for sure. One of the dragons was grounded when there was heavy rain (can't remember the name). However, Alyanne and Jaehaerys visited the North and the Wall quite often and we had no stories of them being grounded by snow. Jaehaerys rained for 50 years so I imagined they visited the North in the winter.

[Alia of the knife]

Pycelle was the Grand Maester (or whatever they call the Maester who represents the Citadel on the King's small council) but I don't think that means other maesters didn't freely communicate with Aemon. I bet Aemon had a ton of pen pals (raven pals?), probably including some folks who weren't maesters at all.

I feel like it would be completely reasonable that Rhaegar wrote to his great-grand-uncle if they both shared an interest in the family prophecies, and Aemon might have known the truth about Lyanna (whatever it was...) but it would also be reasonable that Rhaegar just didn't have the time or the inclination to send long messages to Aemon about his love affairs either. And in any case Aemon probably destroyed the letters. It's a cool idea, though -- that Samwell might stumble across some of those old communications when he returns to the Wall as a Maester. Unfortunately he would not be likely at all to connect anything he read to Jon Snow.

Given that Rhaegar was compared to Baelor the Blessed, Elia is likely the only woman he has known, so yes, I think its possible that Rhaegar wrote his uncle about Lyanna, especially if he was conflicted about his love for her and his duty to honor Elia.

Physical blindness is quite often used as a metaphor to truly "see," whereas sighted people miss what is right in front of them, so yes I speculate that Aemon on some level sensed who Jon was, but never said anything with the exception of pointing him to a particular page in a particular book.

[Alia of the knife]

Well, the dragons are definitely meant to fight the Wights / Others. About them being ground we don't' actually know for sure. One of the dragons was grounded when there was heavy rain (can't remember the name). However, Alyanne and Jaehaerys visited the North and the Wall quite often and we had no stories of them being grounded by snow. Jaehaerys rained for 50 years so I imagined they visited the North in the winter.

Thanks.:)

And FF3: THANK goodness he isn't shying away from the "cliche" and only interested in telling a good story.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

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Oh Oh Oh, I completely forgot! I wanted to see what you guys thought about this conversation;

Oberyn: Do you deny involvement in Elia's murder?

Tywin: Categorically.

Hahaha Tywin is such a dick! IMO it seemed like he was lying through his teeth, How bout yall?

[Rill Redthorn]

Oh Oh Oh, I completely forgot! I wanted to see what you guys thought about this conversation;

Oberyn: Do you deny involvement in Elia's murder?

Tywin: Categorically.

Hahaha Tywin is such a dick! IMO it seemed like he was lying through his teeth, How bout yall?

In the books, Tywin says that killing Elia was stupid and unnecessary; he only ordered the deaths of her children but he "did not yet know what [he] had in Gregor Clegane." Of course, slaughtering her children while she watched was something that could be predicted to cause her enormous suffering and probably her death if she tried to intervene (as she would), but technically, Tywin didn't order Elia killed.

Edit: Here's the actual text from ASOS. Tywin and Tyrion are talking.

Tywin: "I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing."

Tyrion: "Then why did The Mountain kill her?"

Tywin: "Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. [....] Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. That rape...even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope."

[Alia of the knife]

And Tywin is all about the technicalities. Its a little like Becket, Henry, and an eagerness to please.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Oh Oh Oh, I completely forgot! I wanted to see what you guys thought about this conversation;

Oberyn: Do you deny involvement in Elia's murder?

Tywin: Categorically.

Hahaha Tywin is such a dick! IMO it seemed like he was lying through his teeth, How bout yall?

I absolutely got the impression in the show that he was lying or not telling the whole truth. In the books, I got the same impression. I am fairly certain (just off my own thinking) that he did give the order to kill the royal family. I don't think he specifically asked Gregor to rape Elia and I don't think he told Amory Lorch to stab the princess half-a-hundred times, but I think he knew these men were gonna make a mess out of it.

Oberyn seemed to think in the book that Tywin was settling the score for Elia marrying Rhaegar.

When he says he categorically denies any involvement in her rape and murder, he is lying.

[dbunting]

A question on Jaime and Cersei... Is there any chance that we get a scene this week of them laying together after the sex scene next to Joffery and the tone of what happened changes from rape to consensual? Or a scene later of the two laughing and talking about it? That would go a long way to getting Jaime back on his redemption arc. If while talking Cersei tells him, not that we did that, you go kill Tyrion, or Sansa, and Jaime realizes that all he is to her is a tool now?

[Cyril]

I doubt they will laugh or casually talk about it, since it's the last time they have sex in the books. It's a pivotal point in their storyline.

Given it's also the Oathkeeper episode, it's likely that Cersei goes into Jaime/LC's room and attempt to have sex with him there, and it's he who rejects her. Any conversation clarifying the sex would happen there, but this particular conversation is already heavy enough in topic in the books, not to mention with Cersei pulling at his pants and mocking him, so I doubt they need, or even can, to add even more to it.

But to be honest, I'm not sure this is the appropriate thread for the subject.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

I absolutely got the impression in the show that he was lying or not telling the whole truth. In the books, I got the same impression. I am fairly certain (just off my own thinking) that he did give the order to kill the royal family. I don't think he specifically asked Gregor to rape Elia and I don't think he told Amory Lorch to stab the princess half-a-hundred times, but I think he knew these men were gonna make a mess out of it.

Oberyn seemed to think in the book that Tywin was settling the score for Elia marrying Rhaegar.

When he says he categorically denies any involvement in her rape and murder, he is lying.

While I believe him that he didn't order the rape and murder, to me it is clear he didn't care one way or another. He left the cleaning up of the mess to Jon Arryn then actively protected Clegane and Lorch so at the very least he is complicit after the fact.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I doubt they will laugh or casually talk about it, since it's the last time they have sex in the books. It's a pivotal point in their storyline.

Given it's also the Oathkeeper episode, it's likely that Cersei goes into Jaime/LC's room and attempt to have sex with him there, and it's he who rejects her. Any conversation clarifying the sex would happen there, but this particular conversation is already heavy enough in topic in the books, not to mention with Cersei pulling at his pants and mocking him, so I doubt they need, or even can, to add even more to it.

But to be honest, I'm not sure this is the appropriate thread for the subject.

No It's fine, we can talk about anything show/book related here.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I absolutely got the impression in the show that he was lying or not telling the whole truth. In the books, I got the same impression. I am fairly certain (just off my own thinking) that he did give the order to kill the royal family. I don't think he specifically asked Gregor to rape Elia and I don't think he told Amory Lorch to stab the princess half-a-hundred times, but I think he knew these men were gonna make a mess out of it.

Oberyn seemed to think in the book that Tywin was settling the score for Elia marrying Rhaegar.

When he says he categorically denies any involvement in her rape and murder, he is lying.

Yeah, In the books when he tells tyrion he ordered the children to be killed but didnt mention Elia.....Well that's basically the same thing as ordering her death as well. He knew she would be with the kids and that he ordered the kids to be killed. So what is she going to do? Just stand there and let them kill her kids? of course not. And it's not like she was just some washer woman, this is Princess Elia of the royal family of Dorne, I would think Tywin could take 1 extra second to specify what he wanted done with her. IMO his men killed her on his orders to kill her children. It is Tywin's fault, and I think that's why he gave the impression of lying about it on the show.

[Rill Redthorn]

Obviously it's Tywin's fault, but this kind of mental justification is one of the hallmarks of Tywin's thinking. It's how he convinces himself that the Red Wedding is a good idea and that having Tysha gang-raped is an appropriate way to give Tyrion a "sharp lesson" about associating with girls his father doesn't approve of. It's the equivalent of a mugger saying, "Yeah, I shot the guy during the robbery, but I didn't plan to kill him, I only planned to rob him! I wouldn't have killed him if he hadn't resisted!" In modern law that concept is utterly rejected, because if you try to rob someone they have a right to try and stop you and you can expect that they probably will do so, making you guilty of murder during the course of a felony.

But it gets murkier with things like the Trayvon Martin case. My take would be that if you go after a teenager minding his own business and are acting aggressive, that you can expect that he'll defend himself, and if you then pull out a gun and shoot him because he punched you, you're still guilty of murder. And yet a modern jury didn't agree with me. :dunno:

I am sure that in Tywin's mind he's not lying when he says he wasn't involved in Elia's death. But I don't buy it, and neither did Oberyn in the book.

[Douglas Dubh]

But it gets murkier with things like the Trayvon Martin case. My take would be that if you go after a teenager minding his own business and are acting aggressive, that you can expect that he'll defend himself, and if you then pull out a gun and shoot him because he punched you, you're still guilty of murder. And yet a modern jury didn't agree with me.

That's because the jury wasn't convinced it happened like you suppose.

[starki]

Oh Oh Oh, I completely forgot! I wanted to see what you guys thought about this conversation;

Oberyn: Do you deny involvement in Elia's murder?

Tywin: Categorically.

Hahaha Tywin is such a dick! IMO it seemed like he was lying through his teeth, How bout yall?

I don't know...we can't really say what the exact Tywinn order was.

[Rill Redthorn]

That's because the jury wasn't convinced it happened like you suppose.

Yep, and that's my point. If you had Tywin Lannister up in front of a jury on the charge of murdering Elia, a lot of them would be likely to say "We don't actually know that he expected Elia to get killed, so we can't hold him responsible for her death."

[Annara Snow]

I hope they don't try to cram the entire election with all its interesting shenanigans the(and Sam's awesomeness) into episode 10. I'm thinking the season will end with the victory on the wall and maybe about a teaser for the election early in season 5, much the same as the way they put Joff's death early in this season. Jon really doesn't have too much to do after getting elected since he didn't appear in Feast at all

Eh? :huh: You are aware that Feast and Dance take place at the same time and are essentially one book split by location? Jon has more POV chapters than anyone in Dance, and more to do than any other character in Feast/Dance, especially considering the fact they're doing parts of Danys and Theon's arcs this season.

I think that becoming LC is the logical season ender for Jon, and setup for the next season.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Ser Pounce!!!!

And how about that little view into the selection process of the White Walkers??? that was crazy!!!

[Onna Lewyys]

The WW thing definitely deserves to be discussed here.

I think that becoming LC is the logical season ender for Jon, and setup for the next season.

I agree. They even set it up in last night's episode. They need to pay it off at the end of the season.

[MoIaF]

Ser Pounce!!!!

And how about that little view into the selection process of the White Walkers??? that was crazy!!!

The WW thing definitely deserves to be discussed here.

Yes to these two.

Also, I tried starting a thread in the episode forum but still waiting for it o be approve. Anyhow, I thought it was really interesting that Dany, Tyrion and Jon all had the theme of Justice vs. Revenge as part of the episode. I really like the parallel that it represents with these three character being so important to the series.