[Book Spoilers] R+L=J and other theories on HBO

[TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms]

I agree with johndance. Saying "You have my blood." is a weird way of saying "You're my son" unless Ned is intentionally obscuring the truth.

Also, the scene with Robert and Ned on the Kingsroad.

It's a fantastically well-acted scene all around. But especially during these lines, the way that Ned turns to avert his eyes from Robert when he says "Wylla" is perfect. It definitely comes across as if he's lying. It could be interpreted as shame from "forgetting his honor," but would he really feel that ashamed talking about having a bastard with his best friend who happens to be one of the most prolific bastard-makers in the Seven Kingdoms?

Plus there's the fact that Ned refuses to tell Robert what she looked like. In the books, we know that Wylla is an actual person but in the show it kinda seems like he just made her up.

it just goes to prove that Sean Bean is a fucking amazing actor and hit the nail into the coffin, or GRRM told him that who Jon's mother was.

[FrozenFire3]

About the possibility of warging a dragon, very interesting interview with Isaac. Juicy bit round 6:12. I love the way he stalled before answering LOL

[Alia of the knife]

I think the HOTU scene in S2 is a sign that Dany will reject the IT and choose the greater good.

Also Bran's vision of the burnt red keep could be a possibility of Cersei burning it down.

That is a good point too. Many believe that its Jon who might do so, but that it might be Dany is a different perspective.

[Alia of the knife]

About the possibility of warging a dragon, very interesting interview with Isaac. Juicy bit round 6:12. I love the way he stalled before answering LOL

Well, for Isaacs sake, I hope it happens. :D

[Audrey Arryn]

That is a good point too. Many believe that its Jon who might do so, but that it might be Dany is a different perspective.

That was my take on it :)

She was about to touch the throne and then she heard her dragons cry and she chose to look for them instead.

[Alia of the knife]

That was my take on it :)

She was about to touch the throne and then she heard her dragons cry and she chose to look for them instead.

Yes, there are moments when Dany seems to dream of simpler times when she was happy.

[OnlyOne]

Did everyone notice in the last episode, Bran's vision, he saw the IT covered in ice again just like Dany did, and he saw a dragon shadow over KL. Which means we know at least Dany will come to Westeros. And that Winter will come to KL.

Idk if the show put this much thought into it, but when the dragon shadow was passing over KL there was no snoww, so maybe that means Dany will get to Westeros before Winter hits KL. :)

In Brans vision, it could've been ash. The red keep was in ruins and a dragon was overhead-the red keep didn't exist when Balerion was around. Danys vision was definitely ' Snow 'Something to think about. Any thoughts?

[Alia of the knife]

I think the other thing the show and the book reenforce each other on is my speculation that Margaery is written along the lines of Ann Boleyn in the sense that she seems to be complicit in her own eventual downfall due to her ambition, as well as that of her family.

Dontos first warns Sansa that the Tyrells are like "Lannisters with Flowers," and they also share the fact that like the Lannisters, they are also "up-jumped." Lan the Clever tricked his way into Casterly Rock, and the Tyrells were originally gardeners.

The Tyrells manage to put a kinder, more subtle face on their ambition, but they are just as ruthless, i.e., poisoning Joffrey.

To be fair, it's likely all Marg has ever known, much like Cersei with Tywins whisperings, but it's also a little of "what goes around, comes around," and Cersei is learning this through Margaery.

Lady Olenna says she once turned down a Targaryen prince and "good riddance," but there is a pretty good theory, its the other way around, and a Targaryen prince spurned her, and she has been scheming ever since.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Well, there goes the theory of Chekhov's hairnet

*cries in a corner*

[MoIaF]

I think the HOTU scene in S2 is a sign that Dany will reject the IT and choose the greater good.

Also Bran's vision of the burnt red keep could be a possibility of Cersei burning it down.

Agree. She tempted by it, reaches out for it a few times but in the end decides to head the cried of help from her "children" instead.

I've had the sneaking suspicion that someone, most likely Cercsei will destroy KL. All those cache of wildfire aren't there for decoration.

The HOTU scene is probably the biggest thing the show has foreshadowed/spoiled imo. It seems Dany will win the IT, but not have a chance to ever sit on it. We see her go north and be reunited with Drogo and Rhaego. I can't see any other way to interpret that besides Dany dies fighting the Others beyond the Wall.

Dany's definitely going beyond the Wall. Funny enough it's the first destination in Quaith's riddle but it might be the last place Dany will ever be: "To go north, you must go south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Although there is a fairly good possibility Dany will die, I do note that Dany walks away from Drogo and baby Rhaego, for her other "children".

ETA: don't know if this means anything but I was re-watching the HOTU scene and when Dany walks into the Red Keep she is holding a torch, however before she walks toward the IT she lays it down (they show her laying it down). In the middle of winter she lays down her fire...

[Nictarion]

Although there is a fairly good possibility Dany will die, I do note that Dany walks away from Drogo and baby Rhaego, for her other "children".

ETA: don't know if this means anything but I was re-watching the HOTU scene and when Dany walks into the Red Keep she is holding a torch, however before she walks toward the IT she lays it down (they show her laying it down). In the middle of winter she lays down her fire...

These are both interesting to consider. As for the first point, perhaps Dany is beyond the Wall and at the brink of death were all she wants is to be reunited with Drogo, but chooses to hold on and ends up surviving. That scene in the show pretty much had me convinced she dies beyond the Wall, but you make a good point.

Wrt her putting down her fire in the throne room, that's intriguing, and I honestly never even thought anything of it, but considering it was the HOTU, everything likely has meaning.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The Faith of the Seven may technically prohibit polygamy,

Actually you are wrong. Polygamy was never illegal, incest is.

Exactly how many Targ Kings have been polygamous ? Aegon the Conqueror and who else ?

SSM:

Maegor the Cruel had eight or nine wives, I seem to recall, though not all of them were simultaneous. He beheaded a few of them who failed to give him heirs, a test that all of them ultimately failed.

There might have been a few later instances as well. I'd need to look that up... (or make that up, as the case might be).

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Targaryen_Polygamy

[MoIaF]

These are both interesting to consider. As for the first point, perhaps Dany is beyond the Wall and at the brink of death were all she wants is to be reunited with Drogo, but chooses to hold on and ends up surviving. That scene in the show pretty much had me convinced she dies beyond the Wall, but you make a good point.

Wrt her putting down her fire in the throne room, that's intriguing, and I honestly never even thought anything of it, but considering it was the HOTU, everything likely has meaning.

Your interpretation of the GoT HOTU could very well be true, I just saw it a different way.

Also, in the HOTU in the books that vision she was most tempted with was the one of Ser Darry in the house with the red door when he was calling to her, but she was able to resist the temptation (I don't count the chamber room where the Undying were as she was not tempted but distracted when they started to grab at her).

Both the ASOIAF and GoT versions of HOTU tempt Dany with the memories of the two period in her life where she felt the happiest. Both times she walks away, I'm not sure what that might imply.

[Onna Lewyys]

Wrt her putting down her fire in the throne room, that's intriguing, and I honestly never even thought anything of it, but considering it was the HOTU, everything likely has meaning.

The way you put that immediately makes me think of her giving up her claim to throne as a Targaryen (possibly for another Targaryen heir).

[Dustdevil]

I think Bran's vision in the S04E02 also contained another strong hint to Jon's parentage aside from Snow falling on the throne, which could just mean that Jon is of royal blood if he is Rhaegar's son. The other vision is the one of the crypts of Winterfell in connection with him seeing Ned sharpening Ice and in the Black Cells.

We know from the books that when Bran dreams of seeing his father in the crypts of Winterfell, Ned tells him something about Jon. Many believe that the crypts will play an important role in revealing Jon's parentage (maybe Rhaegar's harp in Lyannas crypt or something but that is just wild guessing).

Also we know from the book that Ned has always had these feelings of guilt and has been keeping a secret for fourteen years (Jon's age in the books). Bran seeing Ned sharpening Ice does seem like he is thinking about something, maybe about what he promised Lyanna, which was to keep Jon alive and take care of him.

These are small hints, but for us bookreaders I think they are strong ones that hint to the crypts playing some importance in revealing Jon's parentage.

[MoIaF]

The way you put that immediately makes me think of her giving up her claim to throne as a Targaryen (possibly for another Targaryen heir).

That's an interesting observation. It also made me think of Dany laying down or putting the "fire and blood" of conquest aside when she is faced with winter aka The Others.

[Onna Lewyys]

That could very well be. She does go straight from the throne room to the Wall.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Watching the slaughter by the Wildlings right now.

Guess that's a definite R.I.P. Maegemund, I can only hope R.I.P. Alys/Sigorn, and I can't even with what this will mean for 'letting the Wildlings into the North' later on.

And R.I.P. TV!Jon/Tormund as well?

Wouldn't we need to have a little sympathy for these people left, especially Tormund? They didn't do much bad when Jon was with them, sure, but slaughtering and eating people?

[Rill Redthorn]

Watching the slaughter by the Wildlings right now.

Guess that's a definite R.I.P. Maegemund, I can only hope R.I.P. Alys/Sigorn, and I can't even with what this will mean for 'letting the Wildlings into the North' later on.

And R.I.P. TV!Jon/Tormund as well?

Wouldn't we need to have a little sympathy for these people left, especially Tormund? They didn't do much bad when Jon was with them, sure, but slaughtering and eating people?

Yeah, as much as I hated the Cersei/Jaime change, when I was re-watching it today with a show-only friend, the issue of what was up with the Wildlings was raised. I mentioned that in the books no one lives on that land (it's the Gift) except for the people at Mole's Town, and that the Wildlings didn't slaughter for fun (that's the Ironborn), that we haven't even seen any real cannibal wildlings, only heard rumors, and that their whole plan involved trying to take Castle Black from the south by surprise, so deliberately sending the kid to warn the Night's Watch made no sense.

And that yes, this was going to make Jon's later decision to ally with the Wildings -- assuming they do that -- much harder to justify in the show.

Each time I watch this episode I get more irritated by it. The only part I really liked was the Tywin/Tommen talk.

[Alia of the knife]

Yeah, as much as I hated the Cersei/Jaime change, when I was re-watching it today with a show-only friend, the issue of what was up with the Wildlings was raised. I mentioned that in the books no one lives on that land (it's the Gift) except for the people at Mole's Town, and that the Wildlings didn't slaughter for fun (that's the Ironborn), that we haven't even seen any real cannibal wildlings, only heard rumors, and that their whole plan involved trying to take Castle Black from the south by surprise, so deliberately sending the kid to warn the Night's Watch made no sense.

And that yes, this was going to make Jon's later decision to ally with the Wildings -- assuming they do that -- much harder to justify in the show.

Each time I watch this episode I get more irritated by it. The only part I really liked was the Tywin/Tommen talk.

Agreed with all the above. I especially find the Cersei/Jaimie switch particularly annoying because it feels like they changed it for the sake of changing which throws Jaimies evolution into question.

Hes basically the same character from book 1.