Ukraine IX A victory for The West, Putin or Ukraine?

[Shryke]

Thank you. The parts you mentioned (on pages 4, 20 and 23) are about Crimea. We were talking about Eastern Ukraine.

We were talking about both. But if you want evidence of abuse of journalists in Eastern Ukraine, just read a page back.

[SkaggCannibal]

I can't think any actually. And the comment in question was deserving of more derision then I gave it.

Don't get cranky or dishonest just because I've pointed out that most of your arguments are extremely poor and built on bad or no information.

Which arguments please?

Was it the one where you insisted Ukraine was not using military force in eastern Ukraine? It takes a special kind of stupid to not see the armored vehicles or soldiers. But you can always make up your own definition of military force of course. Only when people get killed, right?

Or the argument where I gave you three (western) sources on media biase, yet you claimed there was "nothing" to read? You obviously don't like to read any sources that might disagree with your narrow worldview and so you decide to not read them, proclaiming they don't exist.

A quote by Charles Bukowski that I think is extremely fitting on you and your numerous assessment on the Ukrainian situations. "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Some self-criticism once in a while, it wouldn't hurt you.

[Hereward]

Bertrand Russell, actually.

[Suttree]

"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence."

Clearly:

Things are looking bright for Crimea: http://en.ria.ru/rus...pment-Plan.html

A lot of extra funding from Russia, concrete plans are an special (low) tax-rate, investments in tourism, vineyards, roads and cheaper flight tickets to attract more Russian tourists

[DanteGabriel]

I've seen the Bertrand Russell quote mis-attributed several times, but crediting it to Bukowski is a new one.

[Shryke]

Which arguments please?

Was it the one where you insisted Ukraine was not using military force in eastern Ukraine? It takes a special kind of stupid to not see the armored vehicles or soldiers. But you can always make up your own definition of military force of course. Only when people get killed, right?

Or the argument where I gave you three (western) sources on media biase, yet you claimed there was "nothing" to read? You obviously don't like to read any sources that might disagree with your narrow worldview and so you decide to not read them, proclaiming they don't exist.

A quote by Charles Bukowski that I think is extremely fitting on you and your numerous assessment on the Ukrainian situations. "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Some self-criticism once in a while, it wouldn't hurt you.

A misattributed quote, bad reading skills and at least 2 cases of pure invention.

Business as usual for you.

This thread has been a real eye-opener for how bad many people are at reading the news. That's useful I guess.

[SkaggCannibal]

Bertrand Russell, actually.

Not really, it's a sentence re-used and rephrased by many, and this version was by mr. Bukowski.

I've seen the Bertrand Russell quote mis-attributed several times, but crediting it to Bukowski is a new one.

Speaks for your general knowledge now doesn't it.

[SkaggCannibal]

Clearly:

Is this where you tell me South-Ossetia is the same as Crimea?

A misattributed quote, bad reading skills and at least 2 cases of pure invention.

Business as usual for you.

This thread has been a real eye-opener for how bad many people are at reading the news. That's useful I guess.

I see you chose to not answer the question, as usual. There is only so much I can do to have a reasonable discussion.

[Wade1865]

There I was, training somewhere in Eastern Europe, when we got the order to plan to relocate further east -- to you know where. The plans were made and I was 98% sure we were going to do it -- I needed another war. But then we stood-down.

Not only does the President bow to foreign emperors, he also accepts slaps in the face from mongols. We finished up our training and went back to base somewhere in Western Europe.

+1 Vladimir

-1 Obama

+/-1 Ukraine

[Hereward]

Yeah, repeating someone else's quote while making it worse is not a new quote.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Skagg,

I'm sure the South-Ossetian's love and welcome their (not so new now) Russian overlords.

Now, is anyone one the Russian sympathetic side of this discussion still going to claim no journalists have been abused after the reporter for Vice had been taken captive?

[DanteGabriel]

Speaks for your general knowledge now doesn't it.

I suppose I should have quoted Hereward in my response so you'd know I was speaking to someone who actually knows what the fuck he's talking about.

[SkaggCannibal]

Yeah, repeating someone else's quote while making it worse is not a new quote.

Bertrand Russell:"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision.”

Charles Bukowski: "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence."

If I had used the second quote and attributed it to Russell, someone would've said it's actually Bukowski's. It's also a bit beside the issue, but any straws are helpful right?

[SkaggCannibal]

I suppose I should have quoted Hereward in my response so you'd know I was speaking to someone who actually knows what the fuck he's talking about.

I guess you should. Or not post on a public forum when you only want one person's answer.

No need to curse though.

[Suttree]

Is this where you tell me South-Ossetia is the same as Crimea?

Of course not, it's 40 times the size in terms of inhabitants which could represent a much larger drag on the Russian economy. Nice that you are so "full of confidence" for Crimea with absolutely zero to back up your stance however.

Why don't we check in on how things are going in Crimea so far?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/22/world/europe/under-russia-life-in-crimea-grows-chaotic.html?_r=0

In Crimea now, few institutions function normally. Most banks are closed. So are land registration offices. Court cases have been postponed indefinitely. Food imports are haphazard. Some foreign companies, like McDonald’s, have shut down.

Other changes are more sinister. “Self-defense units,” with no obvious official mandate, swoop down at train stations and other entry points for sudden inspections. Drug addicts, political activists, gays and even Ukrainian priests — all censured by either the government or the Russian Orthodox Church — are among the most obvious groups fearing life under a far less tolerant government.

Food imports, for example, have dwindled in the face of murky, slapdash rules. The Crimean authorities recently banned cheese and pork from Ukraine, then announced that full Russian border controls would be put in effect on Friday. Shoppers are suddenly finding favorite brands of ordinary items like yogurt unavailable.

Citing logistical problems, McDonald’s closed. Metro, a giant German supermarket chain, also shut down. Most multinational businesses want to avoid possible sanctions elsewhere for operating in Crimea.

Flight connections have been severed except to Russia. Crimea officially moved an hour ahead to Moscow time, but cellphones automatically revert to Ukrainian time.

In Dzhankoy, about 55 miles north of this capital city, Edward A. Fyodorov, 37, has been selling ice cream since he was 9 years old. Those sales eventually led to a fleet of 20 refrigerated trucks. He used to import all manner of food from Ukraine, including frozen buns and salad fixings for McDonald’s, plus various goods for Metro supermarkets and 300 smaller grocery stores.

Business is off 90 percent, he said. Five to seven truckloads a day have diminished to about one a week. He has been looking for Russian suppliers, but products cost about 70 percent more and transportation issues are thorny.

Crimea lacks a land border with Russia, about 350 miles away through Ukraine. The lone ferry crosses to Crimea from an obscure corner of the Caucasus. An expensive bridge promised by the Kremlin is years away.

“It is impossible to make any plans or forecasts,” said Mr. Fyodorov, voicing an almost universal lament. Even if he found work, he said, closed banks make payments impossible.

Long lines snake outside the few Russian banks operating. (Some Crimeans waiting in line resorted to a Soviet-era tactic of volunteering to maintain epic lists — at one passport office the list stretched to more than 12,000 names.)..

Crimeans are occasionally alarmed by armed men in uniforms without insignia who materialize at places like Simferopol’s train station, inspecting luggage and occasionally arresting passengers. Various people detained in protests against the referendum a month ago have not resurfaced.

When confronted, the uniformed men tell Crimeans that they are “activists from the people” who are “preserving order.”

Archbishop Kliment of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, vilified by its Russian counterpart, said Russian priests with armed supporters had threatened to confiscate churches in at least two villages. His 16 priests sent their families and their most valuable icons to the Ukrainian mainland for protection, he said.

Natalia Rudenko, the founding principal of the capital’s one Ukrainian school, said city officials fired her shortly after a member of the self-defense forces visited, demanding to know why the school was still teaching Ukrainian and not flying the Russian flag. Ms. Yurchenko, the tourism minister, said the school could continue to teach Ukrainian, since the new Constitution protected the language, but it would need to add Russian classes.

It is hard to tally the many branches of government not functioning.

[SkaggCannibal]

Of course not, it's 40 times the size in terms of inhabitants which could represent a much larger drag on the Russian economy. Nice that you are so "full of confidence" for Crimea with absolutely zero to back up your stance however.

Why don't we check in on how things are going in Crimea so far?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/22/world/europe/under-russia-life-in-crimea-grows-chaotic.html?_r=0

First of all, I do not pretend to know anything for sure, I do not know how Crimea will look like in the mid and/or long-term and neither do I pretend to. Second, if you're gonna fish up an old post of me to criticize, please quote it is a whole. I said things were looking bright for Crimea, not are or will be. The important part of the argument was how (parts of) Ukraine will be looking at Russia and Crimea if their own economy is going down the drain. Not saying it will, but there surely is a chance with IMF austerity (Greece), rising gas-prises and a huge neighbour out to get them. Can you say for sure Crimea will be worse off then the rest of Ukraine? I can't, but it surely is interesting to discuss who will be better off, mainland Ukraine or Crimea. Now, if you have anything to say on THAT, I would be happy to have the discussion. If you're gonna twist my words in a desperate attempt to proof I said something wrong, please stop. I never pretended to know for sure in the first place.

Nice read on Crimea though, I guess things aren't looking that bright. It was also to expect as the immediate aftermath of an annexation, so I think it's still a bit to early to have a final judgement. And it's a western-orientated newspaper too. It may put a bit to much emphasis on McDonalds and the fact that cell phones haven't automaticly switched to Moscow Time, which isn't as alarming as they make it out to be. That Russia now is an obliged language in school (as a second language at least), is also logical. But yeah you're right when you say it isn't exactly the promised land.

[Mazigh]

Skagg,

I'm sure the South-Ossetian's love and welcome their (not so new now) Russian overlords.

Now, is anyone one the Russian sympathetic side of this discussion still going to claim no journalists have been abused after the reporter for Vice had been taken captive?

Maybe he shouldn't spy for the West if he doesn't want to be captured

And Ossetians aren't mongols

[Ramsay Gimp]

Who fucking cares if he misattributed the quote? Are you guys a bunch of spergs pedants that focused on minutia? A quick correction would have sufficed, since obviously the content of the quote is what matters

[Linsox]

The important part of the argument was how (parts of) Ukraine will be looking at Russia and Crimea if their own economy is going down the drain. Not saying it will, but there surely is a chance with IMF austerity (Greece), rising gas-prises and a huge neighbour out to get them. Can you say for sure Crimea will be worse off then the rest of Ukraine? I can't, but it surely is interesting to discuss who will be better off, mainland Ukraine or Crimea. Now, if you have anything to say on THAT, I would be happy to have the discussion.

Any progress made in Crimea will be thanks to Russian subsidies. If you want to know how areas outside Donbass view it so far, they had a pro-Ukraine rally in Kharkov that flew under Western radar. The knee-jerk reaction against US/EU interference (declarations of no confidence in the interim government) has subsided for the most part.

[Serious Callers Only]

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-through-eyes-of-television/25321677.html