explaining the Daenerys odium

[Starspear]

Well then I suppose you haven't looked close enough. Must people continuously list her sufferings for you to admit that they have been listed? This is the silliest thing I've ever read.

Do you equal the consequences of her actions with the consequences of the mistakes of Robb, Joffrey, Renly, Catelyn?

All the above paid a dear price. Daenerys did not pay. Astapor/Meereen/Khal Drogo paid.

And hence, she is protected in a way that the other characters are not. That's the thread (explaining reader reactions to her teflon-nature).

Of course, she's had failures. Yes, a difficult childhood (via backstory). This is not denied. The thread is other than you think, I believe.

[Starspear]

It's to late to go into detail Dragon's Bane. 2-9 are wrong and 11 is stupid wrong. I may add details tomorrow if this is still going.

Better to add details. I think post #248 makes valid points.

[flrtwtrble]

Its a testament to GRRM that the character most associated with Fire stirs up the most heated emotions as seen on this thread: I see that as a compliment to the author, not a criticism.

But it saddens me that the most impassioned "odium" seems reserved, both in ASOIAF and the world, with attractive women: Sansa, Catelyn, Danaerys. I see it everywhere in the real world, it's ugly, and it's very difficult to put down to mere coincidence. These characters just seem to come in for far more intense criticisms than Male counterparts, or children, or elderly women. I would never be trite enough to boil all the criticisms of Dany down to sexually competitive jealousy: there are an awful lot of valid criticisms of Dany for that not to be necessary, but taking a step back from the details, I do feel that an element of that which turns up the heat even more than seems justified, and it's nasty to look upon from a distance.

To claim Dany hasn't suffered "enough" relative to other characters is incredibly sadistic. How much "aught" one person suffer? How big a pound of flesh do you want from her? Have you suffered more than her, enough to feel justified in hating her for being "lucky" or GRRM's "favourite"? If Dany were really GRRM's favourite, he would not have given us any reason to debate her: he would have written her perfectly, making perfect decisions, leaving us with a perfect, boring character with literally nothing to hate. How many people found Ned odious prior to his death for not dying like Viserys or being crippled like Bran? For being dull and perfect? This is not a sympathy-through-suffering arms race.

I feel all this is missing the point and I still sympathise with her as a result of what she has been through. She has suffered terribly. People who argue that "she should have known that only death pays for life" miss the point that she still suffered greatly. She still lost her son. She still lost her husband, and what made it all the more painful was the fact that deep down, she knew it was partly down to her own decision making. I always find that hurts even more, when unfair consequences are as a result of your own errors. It's galling. Indeed, she was driven to "madness"- killing MMD and walking into the fire was her "Catelyn Stark killing jinglebells and going bonkers" moment, only, Cat didn't have to strangle Ned out of mercy, whereas Dany did with Khal Drogo. That kind of suffering will drive me through to the end in sharing sympathy with Dany. Noone should be driven to have to kill someone they love out of mercy. I cannot imagine anything to compare with such suffering.

To people who say that slaves dying doesn't cause her to suffer and only hurts her ego, I really don't see it at all. She cannot have children, she yearns to protect and mother children, and after they embraced her as "Mhysa" she has thousands of them and suffers a thousandfold when they are killed by the sons of harpy. Her depression and her paranoia are all signs of her suffering from her inability to put right what she started, and from her litany of encounters of untrustworthy people. A ridiculously high percentage of people she has encountered have tried to kill her or betray her for simply being a Targaryan. That has taken it's toll as she is struggling now to trust people: in itself a tragedy because none of that was brought upon by herself.

In terms of physical "suffering" as little as it matters to the central issue, Arya had her axe moment, Dany had her Pyat-Pree kine wielding moment exiting the house of the undying. Didn't she wake from a trance with blue shrivelled people gnawing at her breasts or something? Isnt she now suffering from signs of plague, with bloody feet, wandering through the desert scavanging for berrys?

Awesome post!

[Jasta11]

But don't all characters have similar plot armors? I don't understand this 'plot armor' criticism when the writer is trying to tell a story using a character. Without plot armors we would have a rather boring story and all the characters would be dead by the end of the book.

I can cry plot armor for every character. For example, Sansa ends up hostage to the Lannisters (Partly because of her own mistakes). But oh look, here's the hound who loves her 11 yr old innocent virgin ass and steps in to protect her. Plot armor.

Tyrion is the king of plot armor who seems to be able to get out of all sorts of situations. But he makes for an interesting read.

Jaime gets plot armor after plot armor despite making several blunders. And all he loses is his hand. His stupid adulterous affair with Cersei causes death and destruction but he is still KG and still making the rounds threatening to throw babies off trebuchets. But he is still a fan favorite character

Littlefinger has so much plot armor, I am amazed he can walk with all that weight.

Jon and Arya also have plenty of plot armors that help them get out of situations.

When GRRM decided he is done with a character and their story, then the plot armor is gone and they are dead. We know that several characters will not die until the very end of the book and that their story is important. What's the point of complaining about plot armor?

What I described is not plot armor. Plot armor is normal, it's what makes characters not die. I agree that Tyrion and Jon have more than her, they survive things they have no business surviving.

What i describe is other people solving your problems for you. That's plot gifts, not plot armor, and while it happens to everyone once in a while ( Arya taken under the wing of the BwB/Sandor, Jon saved by Summer, Tyrion broken out by Varys albeit with strings attached) it happens a lot to Dany. It's like her story simply cannot move on without an outside force handing her what she needs on a silver platter. The dragons. the deserted city. the prophecies. the ships and Barristan. The Unsullied. Daario. And now a possibility of no less than 4 other gifts making for Slaver's Bay to untie the proverbial knot.

Other charcters have a balance between such gifts and things not going their way for a variety of reasons. Until book 5, Dany seldom suffered setbacks at all, and it seems to me said setbacks in Meereen are more due to the fact nobody swoops in to save the day rather than anything else. It's not about her having to suffer or anything like that. It's about her never getting out of a sticky situation thanks to her own abilities, which makes her arc dull after a time.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

My problem with Daenerys is she had so much promise but, now she seems like your average two dimensional heroine or hero . And besides she is taking a long time to make it to Westeros.

[Starspear]

Its a testament to GRRM that the character most associated with Fire stirs up the most heated emotions as seen on this thread: I see that as a compliment to the author, not a criticism.

But it saddens me that the most impassioned "odium" seems reserved, both in ASOIAF and the world, with attractive women: Sansa, Catelyn, Danaerys. I see it everywhere in the real world, it's ugly, and it's very difficult to put down to mere coincidence. These characters just seem to come in for far more intense criticisms than Male counterparts, or children, or elderly women. I would never be trite enough to boil all the criticisms of Dany down to sexually competitive jealousy: there are an awful lot of valid criticisms of Dany for that not to be necessary, but taking a step back from the details, I do feel that an element of that which turns up the heat even more than seems justified, and it's nasty to look upon from a distance.

To claim Dany hasn't suffered "enough" relative to other characters is incredibly sadistic. How much "aught" one person suffer? How big a pound of flesh do you want from her? Have you suffered more than her, enough to feel justified in hating her for being "lucky" or GRRM's "favourite"? If Dany were really GRRM's favourite, he would not have given us any reason to debate her: he would have written her perfectly, making perfect decisions, leaving us with a perfect, boring character with literally nothing to hate. How many people found Ned odious prior to his death for not dying like Viserys or being crippled like Bran? For being dull and perfect? This is not a sympathy-through-suffering arms race.

I feel all this is missing the point and I still sympathise with her as a result of what she has been through. She has suffered terribly. People who argue that "she should have known that only death pays for life" miss the point that she still suffered greatly. She still lost her son. She still lost her husband, and what made it all the more painful was the fact that deep down, she knew it was partly down to her own decision making. I always find that hurts even more, when unfair consequences are as a result of your own errors. It's galling. Indeed, she was driven to "madness"- killing MMD and walking into the fire was her "Catelyn Stark killing jinglebells and going bonkers" moment, only, Cat didn't have to strangle Ned out of mercy, whereas Dany did with Khal Drogo. That kind of suffering will drive me through to the end in sharing sympathy with Dany. Noone should be driven to have to kill someone they love out of mercy. I cannot imagine anything to compare with such suffering.

To people who say that slaves dying doesn't cause her to suffer and only hurts her ego, I really don't see it at all. She cannot have children, she yearns to protect and mother children, and after they embraced her as "Mhysa" she has thousands of them and suffers a thousandfold when they are killed by the sons of harpy. Her depression and her paranoia are all signs of her suffering from her inability to put right what she started, and from her litany of encounters of untrustworthy people. A ridiculously high percentage of people she has encountered have tried to kill her or betray her for simply being a Targaryan. That has taken it's toll as she is struggling now to trust people: in itself a tragedy because none of that was brought upon by herself.

In terms of physical "suffering" as little as it matters to the central issue, Arya had her axe moment, Dany had her Pyat-Pree kine wielding moment exiting the house of the undying. Didn't she wake from a trance with blue shrivelled people gnawing at her breasts or something? Isnt she now suffering from signs of plague, with bloody feet, wandering through the desert scavanging for berrys?

It's not about suffering. It's about consequence. No one is looking for her to suffer. GRRM creates a world with tremendous suffering. And he has characters face the most abhorrent consequences for righteous actions, for stupid actions.

The point is that Daenerys is not deplored for any of the reasons you mention, but because of the lack of consequences (personal consequences) for her actions. The suffering you argue against - the sadism - is the GRRM world. No poster here is sadistic. But how can you argue against sadism and yet not hold the books of ASOIAF accountable? Name me a more sadistic fantasy series.

[Starspear]

My problem with Daenerys is she had so much promise but, now she seems like your average two dimensional heroine or hero . And besides she is taking a long time to make it to Westeros.

Briefly said, but full of truth. So much invested in the character, so little explored on the page. Hopefully, she'll flourish (as a character) in the next two novels.

[Dragon's Bane]

I think it's time for my favourite game: Plot Armor Count!

Let's take a look at all the situations where she only got out because she was extremely lucky or someone completely messed up. LET IT BEGIN!

1. The Wine Merchant: Granted, the situation is a bit twisted, because we only have her PoV and not Jorah's. But it's a weird coincidence that he (presumably) receives a letter of warning right before that scene and immediately suspects the merchant himself. Given how long word has to travel from King's Landing/Pentos to Vaes Dothrak, that was prett lucky. Plot armor count: 1

2. Mirri Maz Dur: Khal Drogo lies dying and witch is with him. His three toughest warriors don't try to stop MMD? And kill the Khaleesi in the process for she is definitely to blame? Oh wait, Ser Random Exiled Knight can defend Drogo, Dany and MMD. What? Plot armor count: 2.

3. The Aftermath: Dany euthanized Drogo. In every possible interpretation, she killed him. Isn't the job of blood riders to avenge the Khal? They didn't. Plot armor count: 3.

4. Come On Baby Light My Fire: Dany hops into a funeral pyre. She is not generally immune to fire, she still has to breath which is hard in a fire - yet, she lives. Plot armor count: 5 (yes, it counts double, that's how ridiculous it was).

5. The Red Waste: The strong horses and people are gone, there are hardly any provisions left - what to do? Right. Got into the desert. They should have all died in there. Plot armor count: 6.

6. Qarth: Imagine the mongols with three cannons they can't work out how to use yet in front of your city, their leader threatening everone left and right. Let them die out there, take the dragons. Plot armor count: 7.

7. The House of the Undying: For the first time in their lives, one of the dragon was able to really spit fire. Great coincidence that it happened exactly when needed, right? Plot armor count: 8.

8. Qarth again: She takes presents from everyone, doesn't give anything back, instead she threatens people and wants more and more. No one seems to be fed up with it. Why? Plot armor count: 9.

9. The Manticore: That was one pretty lame assassination attempt. Why are the Sorrowful Man even known as a guild when they suck that hard? Sure, a manticore... that's very straight forward and directed at a specific target. So long as there are no quarterstaves around. Plot armor count: 10.

10. Astapor: She buys 8000 slave soldiers and uses them a heartbeat later to kill their former masters. Why don't they have a fail safe? Plot armor count: 11.

11.-100. From here on out everyone who ever treats with her would have every right to just kill her. She showed that she can never be trusted by betraying trade law and basically redweddinging the shit out of Astapor. At this point everyone has the right to pull a manderly and bake her into a cake.

After rereading her chapters in ADWD:

11. The Sons of the Harpy: They are supposed to be members of the most powerful houses of Meereen, yet they don't manage to dress like a Brazen Beast, get close to her, kill her? Plot armor count: 12.

12. Keep it Quiet: Her dragons eat a child. They. Eat. A. Child. They buy the father off, noone talks? Noone? Once this is public knowledge, people may re-interpret "Mother of Dragons" and riot. Plot armor count: 13.

(Surprise! In her second PoV-chapter there is no plot-armor-event, but instead she orders children to be tortured, disowns a rich family and takes hostages so noone would be allowed to leave the city)

13. Xaro the Stupid: Had he been smart, there would have been a contingency plan, a failsafe. Some poisoned gift, a slave for her to stick her with the pointy end... anything was possible, but Qartheens are all morons. Plot armor count: 14.

14. In Her Cups: She treats her hostages kindly, but they are still hostages and their families suffer greatly under her rule. None of the families thought of poisoning her with something inconspicuous? Plot armor count: 15.

15. The White Wedding: White as in: nothing happened. Why not? There was plenty a reason, plenty an opportunity. Robb died that way. Catelyn as well. And Joffrey. Plot armor count: 16.

16. Lololocusts: Some of her food was poisoned. She didn't eat it. Quite lucky, don't you think? Plot armor count: 17.

17. Mother of Plot Armors: Sure, why would an enraged dragon kill the girl whipping him... Plot armor count: 18.

[KalibakCruel]

After rereading her chapters in ADWD:

11. The Sons of the Harpy: They are supposed to be members of the most powerful houses of Meereen, yet they don't manage to dress like a Brazen Beast, get close to her, kill her? Plot armor count: 12.

12. Keep it Quiet: Her dragons eat a child. They. Eat. A. Child. They buy the father off, noone talks? Noone? Once this is public knowledge, people may re-interpret "Mother of Dragons" and riot. Plot armor count: 13.

(Surprise! In her second PoV-chapter there is no plot-armor-event, but instead she orders children to be tortured, disowns a rich family and takes hostages so noone would be allowed to leave the city)

13. Xaro the Stupid: Had he been smart, there would have been a contingency plan, a failsafe. Some poisoned gift, a slave for her to stick her with the pointy end... anything was possible, but Qartheens are all morons. Plot armor count: 14.

14. In Her Cups: She treats her hostages kindly, but they are still hostages and their families suffer greatly under her rule. None of the families thought of poisoning her with something inconspicuous? Plot armor count: 15.

15. The White Wedding: White as in: nothing happened. Why not? There was plenty a reason, plenty an opportunity. Robb died that way. Catelyn as well. And Joffrey. Plot armor count: 16.

16. Lololocusts: Some of her food was poisoned. She didn't eat it. Quite lucky, don't you think? Plot armor count: 17.

17. Mother of Plot Armors: Sure, why would an enraged dragon kill the girl whipping him... Plot armor count: 18.

This is so beyond great.

[HexMachina]

15. The White Wedding: White as in: nothing happened. Why not? There was plenty a reason, plenty an opportunity. Robb died that way. Catelyn as well. And Joffrey. Plot armor count: 16.

Oh please, we are now calling it plot armour when nothing "eventful" happens at a wedding? :bs:

[Starspear]

Oh please, we are now calling it plot armour when nothing "eventful" happens at a wedding? :bs:

Perhaps, you are correct. But you ignored all his other points.

As for the wedding, yes, would have been redundant as a reader... but I think the point was the vulnerability of people at weddings.

[HexMachina]

After rereading her chapters in ADWD:

11. The Sons of the Harpy: They are supposed to be members of the most powerful houses of Meereen, yet they don't manage to dress like a Brazen Beast, get close to her, kill her? Plot armor count: 12.

12. Keep it Quiet: Her dragons eat a child. They. Eat. A. Child. They buy the father off, noone talks? Noone? Once this is public knowledge, people may re-interpret "Mother of Dragons" and riot. Plot armor count: 13.

(Surprise! In her second PoV-chapter there is no plot-armor-event, but instead she orders children to be tortured, disowns a rich family and takes hostages so noone would be allowed to leave the city)

13. Xaro the Stupid: Had he been smart, there would have been a contingency plan, a failsafe. Some poisoned gift, a slave for her to stick her with the pointy end... anything was possible, but Qartheens are all morons. Plot armor count: 14.

14. In Her Cups: She treats her hostages kindly, but they are still hostages and their families suffer greatly under her rule. None of the families thought of poisoning her with something inconspicuous? Plot armor count: 15.

15. The White Wedding: White as in: nothing happened. Why not? There was plenty a reason, plenty an opportunity. Robb died that way. Catelyn as well. And Joffrey. Plot armor count: 16.

16. Lololocusts: Some of her food was poisoned. She didn't eat it. Quite lucky, don't you think? Plot armor count: 17.

17. Mother of Plot Armors: Sure, why would an enraged dragon kill the girl whipping him... Plot armor count: 18.

11. Shavepate knows his Brazen Beasts. He knows the families of Meereen. They aren't going to find it easy to hide among the Brazen Beasts while the Shavepate is in charge.

12. You addressed the point yourself. The father was told not to talk. He was given gold, as a man from Meereen he likely already loves Mhysa, and Dany then proceeds to chain her dragons as a response. What else should he expect and what can he gain from talking?

13. Xaro came to persuade Dany to leave. Hardly surprising that he didn't attempt to kill her.

14. If the cupbearers live in the pyramid, how are they going to be in contact with their families? I can hardly see suspicious Shavepate allowing them to walk in with vials of poison.

15. Addressed already :bs:

16. She ate nothing in the box. Considering she didn't want to be there in the first place, that she doesn't particularly like Ghiscari delicacies anyway, and the entire chapter is showing her coming to disdain and eventually throw off her "floppy ears", its hardly surprising she doesn't eat it.

17. Whipping dragons is shown in the Princess and the Queen to be a standard way of controlling a dragon

[Mark Antony]

11. Shavepate knows his Brazen Beasts. He knows the families of Meereen. They aren't going to find it easy to hide among the Brazen Beasts while the Shavepate is in charge.

12. You addressed the point yourself. The father was told not to talk. He was given gold, as a man from Meereen he likely already loves Mhysa, and Dany then proceeds to chain her dragons as a response. What else should he expect and what can he gain from talking?

13. Xaro came to persuade Dany to leave. Hardly surprising that he didn't attempt to kill her.

14. If the cupbearers live in the pyramid, how are they going to be in contact with their families? I can hardly see suspicious Shavepate allowing them to walk in with vials of poison.

15. Addressed already :bs:

16. She ate nothing in the box. Considering she didn't want to be there in the first place, that she doesn't particularly like Ghiscari delicacies anyway, and the entire chapter is showing her coming to disdain and eventually throw off her "floppy ears", its hardly surprising she doesn't eat it.

17. Whipping dragons is shown in the Princess and the Queen to be a standard way of controlling a dragon

this is so beyond great

[Eyron Stark]

GRRM:

"The moment the reader begins to believe that a character is protected by the magical cloak of authorial immunity, tension goes out the window," ... "The Red Wedding was tremendously hard to write. . . I loved those characters too much. But I knew what had to be done."

Dany may seem fantasy perfect now but fret not, GRRM will take care of that. The biggest fall the loudest after all...and Dany is up there with the main characters.

At the rate she's "marching" to "take back" Westeros *rolls eyes* she'll stop in another city, ruin it, and get another retard like Daario to bang while laying about...

[Dragon's Bane]

He knows all the BB even when they're wearing masks?

He wasn't the only one at court. The other sheep herders were described as unhappy. Why is that? Because they knew, Dany' lackeys wouldn't pay them? Because the were not paid fairly? Or because the father told them the story while they were waiting? And again: there were a bunch of people there. To quote Areo Hotah: "Someone talked. Someone always does."

Sure, but if he weren't an utter fool, he'd knew that she never does what anyone beside her wants. That's why I talked about a contingency. He was given the power to declare war in the name of all of Qarth. I don't suspect a rogue action, I suspect that they knew exactly that: she leaves or we have to declare war. And killing her would have been a lot cleaner and easier than an all out war.

They get the info before they are taken (I don't expect the hostages to be forced from their beds while sleeping, altough it would fit her MO), just hide a bit of strangler between your buttcheeks, drop it in the wine, done and done.

There was motive, there was opportunity. There was hardly a better chance to kill her than right then and there, so why not?

She ate nothing. Does she never eat at all? If so, your point.

If you want to train a dragon, you start earlier, while you have some kind of physical superiority. She did not have that. And he was wounded, wild and enranged - not the best place to start.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

She's insulated now so she can pay the piper later. The thing about luck is that it always runs out.

[David Selig]

GRRM:

"The moment the reader begins to believe that a character is protected by the magical cloak of authorial immunity, tension goes out the window"

This coming from the writer who has had so many fake death cliffhangers in his series that nobody believes Jon is dead even after after he was stabbed 4 times is kind of hilarious.

[Starspear]

He knows all the BB even when they're wearing masks?

He wasn't the only one at court. The other sheep herders were described as unhappy. Why is that? Because they knew, Dany' lackeys wouldn't pay them? Because the were not paid fairly? Or because the father told them the story while they were waiting? And again: there were a bunch of people there. To quote Areo Hotah: "Someone talked. Someone always does."

Sure, but if he weren't an utter fool, he'd knew that she never does what anyone beside her wants. That's why I talked about a contingency. He was given the power to declare war in the name of all of Qarth. I don't suspect a rogue action, I suspect that they knew exactly that: she leaves or we have to declare war. And killing her would have been a lot cleaner and easier than an all out war.

They get the info before they are taken (I don't expect the hostages to be forced from their beds while sleeping, altough it would fit her MO), just hide a bit of strangler between your buttcheeks, drop it in the wine, done and done.

There was motive, there was opportunity. There was hardly a better chance to kill her than right then and there, so why not?

She ate nothing. Does she never eat at all? If so, your point.

If you want to train a dragon, you start earlier, while you have some kind of physical superiority. She did not have that. And he was wounded, wild and enranged - not the best place to start.

He knows all the BB even when they're wearing masks?

He wasn't the only one at court. The other sheep herders were described as unhappy. Why is that? Because they knew, Dany' lackeys wouldn't pay them? Because the were not paid fairly? Or because the father told them the story while they were waiting? And again: there were a bunch of people there. To quote Areo Hotah: "Someone talked. Someone always does."

Sure, but if he weren't an utter fool, he'd knew that she never does what anyone beside her wants. That's why I talked about a contingency. He was given the power to declare war in the name of all of Qarth. I don't suspect a rogue action, I suspect that they knew exactly that: she leaves or we have to declare war. And killing her would have been a lot cleaner and easier than an all out war.

They get the info before they are taken (I don't expect the hostages to be forced from their beds while sleeping, altough it would fit her MO), just hide a bit of strangler between your buttcheeks, drop it in the wine, done and done.

There was motive, there was opportunity. There was hardly a better chance to kill her than right then and there, so why not?

She ate nothing. Does she never eat at all? If so, your point.

If you want to train a dragon, you start earlier, while you have some kind of physical superiority. She did not have that. And he was wounded, wild and enranged - not the best place to start.

Counter-argument: Mother of Dragons

[Florina Laufeyson]

She's insulated now so she can pay the piper later. The thing about luck is that it always runs out.

Oh, and how. I think Dany has a Theon-level piper payment coming up. Not saying shes gonna get Ramsay'd, but the sort of consequences/action quotient is piling up. It just feels like the next two books are gonna be Dany getting slapped around with the iron gauntlet of "You! Shut the fuck up!"

[Starspear]

Oh, and how. I think Dany has a Theon-level piper payment coming up. Not saying shes gonna get Ramsay'd, but the sort of consequences/action quotient is piling up. It just feels like the next two books are gonna be Dany getting slapped around with the iron gauntlet of "You! Shut the fuck up!"

Daenerys has a huge fanbase...would HBO or GRRM do such a thing?

re HBO: Yes

re GRRM: I don't know.