US Politics: Tragedy of the Commons? What's that?

[Phaing]

It still boggles the mind that somehow Sarah fucking Palin was almost Vice President of the United States.

Compared to Joe out-to-lunch Biden ?!?

Jesus wept...

... And who the fuck cares about offending Al Qaeda???

Their potential allies?

I dunno, I might care someday, if an American captured by the bad guys ever turns up... alive.

Still waiting on that day.

[Free Northman Reborn]

A question for the Left:

Something always strikes me about the absolute conviction with which many Liberals detest Conservative leaders in their personal capacities. The way in which George W. Bush or Palin or Huckabee etc are absolutely villified comes to mind.

My question is: Do you have distaste for Right wing leaders/heroes because of their association with an idealogy that you despise, or because you genuinely believe that these people are indidividually more "evil" than their Left wing counterparts?

To explain my question differently: The impression is created by many liberal posters that Right wing leaders are generally opportunists that simply pander to the "simplistic" beliefs of their supporters for self enrichment. In other words, they don't genuinely hold the strong convictions that they are figureheads for. They just use them to achieve power.

In contrast, it would seem that the Left believes that many of their own iconic leaders - like JFK, Obama, Clinton etc. are more principled in terms of their positions. Forget about sex scandals and stuff like that, that's not what I'm talking about. I mean the values that these leaders try to promote.

In a nutshell, the Left appears to feel that liberal leaders are flawed humans with normal human vices, but they absolutely believe in social justice, equality and all the other values that the Left holds dear. In contrast, Conservative leaders really just care about themselves, and use the masses of conservatives as voting fodder to further their careers. While they may claim publicly to feel strongly about things like abortion, gun rights, low taxes and gay-marriage, they don't truly hold these beliefs as close to their hearts. It is merely a vehicle for their ambitions.

My question is not aimed at trying to suggest that some - perhaps most - leaders don't indeed suffer from this lack of principles and conviction, but is instead aimed at trying to ascertain whether the Left believes that Right wing leaders are any more guilty of this hypocrisy than the leaders of the Left.

[TrackerNeil]

Compared to Joe out-to-lunch Biden ?!?

Well, it's true that Joe Biden has not yet gotten into a media spat with the teenaged father of his daughter's baby-daddy, but I suppose not everyone can be so savvy.

[Wise Fool]

Also the whole "baptizing terrorists with waterboarding" thing is basically squatting and taking a dump on the whole notion of baptism. It's like if grumdin said, "If I were President, golden showers is how I'd baptize Sarah Palin." Ha ha, take that, Jesus.

But Palin suggested the use of nukes on Russia over the Ukraine situation. She's a dangerous idiot.

[BloodRider]

Tragedy of the Commons is when people are allowed to join unions, and have a 40 hour work-week. AMIRITE!

[TrackerNeil]

But Palin suggested the use of nukes on Russia over the Ukraine situation. She's a dangerous idiot.

I'd suggest that she's just an idiot. She stopped being dangerous years ago.

[awesome possum]

Compared to Joe out-to-lunch Biden ?!?

Jesus wept...

Absolutely. See, Biden plays up his dopey average Joe gimmick because his constituents love that shtick. In reality he often speaks before thinking all the way through but behind that he's a shrewd, intelligent politician with a lot of experience.

Sarah Palin's constituents (or I mean her fans, since you know, she quit the job on her constituents for easy money) appear to love that shtick as well. The difference is, it's not a gimmick. She really is as dopey and clueless as she comes across.

And in today's Republican party that makes her a STAR who shines so bright that all of us dumb ole evil libruls can't help but be jealous. Or something. I thought blindly defending Palin was so 2010.

[sologdin]

their potential allies?

goodness. no presumption of good faith, I guess.

Conservative leaders in their personal capacities

not for me. the personal capacity is irrelevant. in their official capacities they advance interests that i oppose. alleged moral 'evil' is irrelevant in that calculus.

but: when they lack gracefulness in their personal capacities (a basic requirement, it seems, to be a "conservative leader"), i join in the general mockery.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

FNR,

Huckabee is delighted to use the power of government to further his evangelical christian agenda. He wants control of govenment so he can use the monopoly of force his way.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Fortunately, Palin didn't nearly become VP. Obama won that election comfortably. The nearly 60 million Americans who decided to vote for her though...

[The Marquis de Leech]

Free Northman:

I'm not aware of the American Left (or anyone else) having any real dislike for George Bush Senior. Or Gerald Ford. Or Eisenhower. Reagan gets disliked for his policies, not his personality; Nixon gets disliked for his personality, not his policies; George Bush Junior gets disliked for both policy and personality.

[Wise Fool]

In other right wing nutjob news, Cliven Bundy is just like Rosa Parks, according to Cliven Bundy.

I am standing up against their bad and unconstitutional laws, just like Rosa Parks did when she refused to sit in the back of the bus. She started a revolution in America, the civil rights movement, which freed the black people from much of the oppression they were suffering. I'm saying Martin Luther King's dream was not that Rosa could take her rightful seat in the front of the bus, but his dream was that she could take any seat on the bus and I would be honored to sit beside her. I am doing the same thing Rosa Parks did--I am standing up against bad laws which dehumanize us and destroy our freedom. Just like the Minutemen at Lexington and Concord, we are saying no to an oppressive government which considers us to be slaves rather than free men.

Quick! To the spin cycle, right wingers! Tell me how he's so right. I need a good laugh and on this board anyway, y'all have gotten so heavily invested in Bundy's burgeoning sainthood you can't back down now.

[TrackerNeil]

Fortunately, Palin didn't nearly become VP. Obama won that election comfortably. The nearly 60 million Americans who decided to vote for her though...

Honestly, I think this is less a statement on the wisdom of the American people and more an example of the power of partisan affiliation. I think most Republicans vote for the Republican ticket, just as most Democrats vote for the Democratic ticket, regardless of the candidates on the ticket. Yes, I wish Americans had been a bit more on-the-ball about just how utterly laughable Palin was, both as a candidate and as a human being, but I suspect many if not most voters really didn't think about her all that much.

[Phaing]

their potential allies?

goodness. no presumption of good faith, I guess.

Well, Tracker has already said that Right-Wingers are more Dangerous that A.Q. terrorists.

Yeah, I know, taking Mr. Rant the Day Away serioulsy is a bad idea, but what am I supposed to make of such people?

They vote, after all.

[DanteGabriel]

FNR,

Huckabee is delighted to use the power of government to further his evangelical christian agenda. He wants control of govenment so he can use the monopoly of force his way.

And by this Huckabee shows he has the weakest kind of faith. He has so little belief in the power of the ideas he favors, he wants to use the mechanics of the state to impose them on other people.

Also telling that it's often the most committed McJesusites who also have all these paranoid fears about Barack Obama or the Democrats or the UN seeking to impose sharia law on the US -- it's a twist on their own primitive fantasies, a projection of their worst sins onto their enemies.

[BloodRider]

I'm not a massive fan of her politics, she strays into neo conservatism too much for my taste. However I think she's a very personable and genuine person. She does her best and speaks her mind honestly without being purposefully deceitful, all rare traits for a politician. Plus of course she is the only politician that i have EVER (or ever will) fantasized about sleeping with :)

I am reminded of the great Bill Cosby joke:

I said to a guy, "Tell me, what is it about cocaine that makes it so wonderful," and he said, "Because it intensifies your personality." I said, "Yes, but what if you're an asshole?"

Palin's sincerity is no asset when her personality and world view is so ignorant and awful.

[DanteGabriel]

Well, Tracker has already said that Right-Wingers are more Dangerous that A.Q. terrorists.

Yeah, I know, taking Mr. Rant the Day Away serioulsy is a bad idea, but what am I supposed to make of such people?

They vote, after all.

Are you calling TrackerNeil "Mr. Rant the Day Away"? Seriously?

You can't actually differentiate between liberal posters here, can you?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

DG,

Yup. Huckabee make me go red in the face. Whenever I hear an aquaintance gush about what a "good Christian" he is I know immediately they have no clue. I seriously doubt Christ wanted to use the mechanisms of State to force people to behave as he believed they should.

[awesome possum]

Well, Tracker has already said that Right-Wingers are more Dangerous that A.Q. terrorists.

Tracker is not wrong. Right-wingers have the ability to make laws (horrible laws that are harmful to the middle and lower classes) in this country. AQ does not. Some of the laws that have been passed (or in the case of the ACA, refused to pass) by right-wingers throughout the states hurt the working classes, the sick, minorities, and gay people.

AQ basically sits several thousand miles away waving their fists at us. So yes, right-wingers are far more dangerous at this point in time.

Are you calling TrackerNeil "Mr. Rant the Day Away"? Seriously?

You can't actually differentiate between liberal posters here, can you?

Well to be fair, that would require him to actually read this thread instead of shaking his finger, defending the latest right-wing idiocy, and running.

[Free Northman Reborn]

DG,

Yup. Huckabee make me go red in the face. Whenever I hear an aquaintance gush about what a "good Christian" he is I know immediately they have no clue. I seriously doubt Christ wanted to use the mechanisms of State to force people to behave as he believed they should.

Scott, in my view, and far be it for me to speak on behalf of God, but I would think that while He would not want the state to force anyone to be a Christian, He would be in favor of the state preventing people from committing sinful acts, be it murder or adultery or abortion etc.

After all, surely one less murder being committed would please HIM, whether the people who are forced by the State to withold from murder are Christians or not. And if it is true that He considers all sins to be equal, then what holds true for murder should hold true for any other sin that can be forcibly prevented too.

Now the above post was merely in direct response to your post, which went there, and not to derail this thread into a religious discussion. Maybe you can start another one of your always thought-provoking philosophical threads so we can discuss this issue further over there.

The point is merely for the sake of this thread that if you are a true believing Christian, then of course you would be in favor of Christian values being applied everywhere. Hence Huckabee's position is perfectly understandable.