Headey, Coster-Waldau on Sept Scene

[Konradsmith]

^If she says some of her thoughts aloud, particularly the one about being a lion and not having to cringe for them, I think people may grow to respect her more. She has that going for her that she's very wilful. To parallel her with her twin, Jaime only began to become "likeable" after he was shamed in his own way by losing his hand and being kicked through the muck etc. Though I doubt Cersei hitting bottom will be constructive in the same way that Jaime's trials and tribulations were (they'll probably make her get worse) the fact that she faces it like she does may gain her some admirers.

But yeah, there will be backlash. It will be season five or six's THAT scene.

[scolbert08]

Thousands, if not millions, of people literally cheered when a child, albeit an evil one, was brutally murdered in front of his parents, but when an equally evil woman (who is herself a rapist) is possibly raped suddenly the sky is falling. Why is the former okay, but the latter not okay? Seems like some seriously flawed priorities to me.

[Sun]

I have a vision of that scene. I hope they do it the way i have it in my head. My vision, we never actually see her boobs or anything. Just shots of her face and her shoulders and the bottom part of her legs and feet as she walks. Then the heckling begins and you see her face wince when that guy says "My wife's got better ones than that!" and "Behold the royal teats!" And then of course the guy with the rat-on-a-stick going all "Want some, Your Grace?" and pushing it forward and you hear a vaguely familiar voice calling: "HOT PIES GET YOUR HOT PIES!" Cersei is moving along but it feels like shes moving slowly. Shot of her bare feet stepping on nasty stuff like filth and broken glass. Cersei's face, she tries not to visibly grimace. And then id have an audio shift where the crowd begins sounding like people we know. Robert's voice is heard: "Was there ever a time where it could work for us?" Ned's voice talking about the mercy of her children, Jaime's voice, Tyrion's voice where he says the "and the joy will turn to ashes in your mouth" line. Then Tywin's voice "you are not as smart as you think you are..." Sansa's voice "I want to be queen like you." Joffrey's voice, and maybe Margaery's voice. Finally Tommen's voice and thats when she breaks. We see her stop for a moment and thats the only time we actually see a full body shot but its from behind. Then she covers herself and makes a break for it and falls at the steps of Maegor's and shes being helped up and the shot fades out with her own sobs.

I so hope they do it that way. That scene really shouldnt have a full frontal. At least its not necessary. Its all about her expressions. D&D, MAKE IT SO!

Yes, something along those lines, I would imagine.

[Frey Pies]

Thousands, if not millions, of people literally cheered when a child, albeit an evil one, was brutally murdered in front of his parents, but when an equally evil woman (who is herself a rapist) is possibly raped suddenly the sky is falling. Why is the former okay, but the latter not okay? Seems like some seriously flawed priorities to me.

I think the whole thing was made to be a bigger deal than it should be. At first, it was just some select book fans clamouring against it, and some select writers picked up on it and began making it an issue about morals and "rape culture".

The scene was disturbing, yes, and that is exactly what the showrunners wanted. In a show where things much worse than that are seen every episode, most people just took it in their stride.

[PatrickStormborn]

It's vile to even think that it's okay because Cersei is a horrible person, and that's sadly how people are interpreting the scene: Cersei tries to manipulate him into killing Tyrion, he calls her "hateful", he punishes her, and then in the next episode he becomes a better person by denying her request and helping to rescue Sansa.

And I don't think it's fair to say that death is worse than rape in this scenario, because Jaime himself thinks that he'd rather be killed than be raped.

Now this is what I call hilarious over-the-top PC nonsense when we're talking about a TV show. Even today, in Anno Domini 2014, you'd hardly be accused of sexual assault for Mero's treatment of Missandei (though you'd certainly qualify as a moron par excellence for something like that). Berlusconi would've spent his whole life in prison otherwise. :lol:

He slapped Missandei (quite hard, it would appear!) on her ass. That is assault (if he hit her that hard across the face, we would definitely be calling it assault), and it was done with a sexual motivation - therefore it's sexual assault.

The fact that you're defending the guy assaulting her rather than taking the side of the victim says a LOT about male perpetuation of rape culture.

Thousands, if not millions, of people literally cheered when a child, albeit an evil one, was brutally murdered in front of his parents, but when an equally evil woman (who is herself a rapist) is possibly raped suddenly the sky is falling. Why is the former okay, but the latter not okay? Seems like some seriously flawed priorities to me.

Joffrey is not a child in the show (he was 17 in season 2 - older than Daenerys is in the books!). He's guilty of sexual assault, murder and torture.

[six]

I have a vision of that scene. I hope they do it the way i have it in my head. My vision, we never actually see her boobs or anything. Just shots of her face and her shoulders and the bottom part of her legs and feet as she walks. Then the heckling begins and you see her face wince when that guy says "My wife's got better ones than that!" and "Behold the royal teats!" And then of course the guy with the rat-on-a-stick going all "Want some, Your Grace?" and pushing it forward and you hear a vaguely familiar voice calling: "HOT PIES GET YOUR HOT PIES!" Cersei is moving along but it feels like shes moving slowly. Shot of her bare feet stepping on nasty stuff like filth and broken glass. Cersei's face, she tries not to visibly grimace. And then id have an audio shift where the crowd begins sounding like people we know. Robert's voice is heard: "Was there ever a time where it could work for us?" Ned's voice talking about the mercy of her children, Jaime's voice, Tyrion's voice where he says the "and the joy will turn to ashes in your mouth" line. Then Tywin's voice "you are not as smart as you think you are..." Sansa's voice "I want to be queen like you." Joffrey's voice, and maybe Margaery's voice. Finally Tommen's voice and thats when she breaks. We see her stop for a moment and thats the only time we actually see a full body shot but its from behind. Then she covers herself and makes a break for it and falls at the steps of Maegor's and shes being helped up and the shot fades out with her own sobs.

I so hope they do it that way. That scene really shouldnt have a full frontal. At least its not necessary. Its all about her expressions. D&D, MAKE IT SO!

YES. I got shivers reading this, I hope they do it this way.

[Dragonstoned]

Now this is what I call hilarious over-the-top PC nonsense when we're talking about a TV show. Even today, in Anno Domini 2014, you'd hardly be accused of sexual assault for Mero's treatment of Missandei (though you'd certainly qualify as a moron par excellence for something like that). Berlusconi would've spent his whole life in prison otherwise. :lol:

Fixit I think you are letting yourself down here - if someone treated your sister or any other female relative like Mero did Missandei would you really not see that as sexual assault? It's not as overt as something like rape but look at the components as broken down by Patrick and hopefully you can see why in fact someone would be accused of it, pretty roundly at that although it would probably still go under most people's radars as it has yours. And Berlusconi should have spent a lot more of his life in prison tbf, for many things including sexual assault.

[Guess who's back]

Rape is now officially worse than beheading people, throwing a kids outside of a window to die, cutting dicks off, flaying people, stabbing a pregnant women in stomach and cannibalism. I don't understand you people.

And is it still rape if Cercei doesn't even see it as rape?

[Ran]

It's rape only if it transgresses consensual boundaries established by both parties. So, no, it's not rape, since the show's view is that such a sexual dynamic is more-or-less normal for the pair, though the circumstances were more grotesque and emotionally fraught than normal.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

I heard extremely less outrage when Melisandre raped Gendry.

Wonder why is that? :dunno:

[Frey Pies]

Why is this still being discussed after Cersei's reaction last episode? It's been cleared up.

B.Cogman himself commented on the undercurrents of the sept scene being palpable in their scene in Oathkeeper. I noticed this too.

For people saying that this wasn't enough, what did you expect? Cersei doesn't view it as rape, the way it is in Westeros, just views it as Jaime being forceful (that's how she viewed what Robert did to her).

[jaimecersei]

Rape is now officially worse than beheading people, throwing a kids outside of a window to die, cutting dicks off, flaying people, stabbing a pregnant women in stomach and cannibalism. I don't understand you people.

And is it still rape if Cercei doesn't even see it as rape?

we don't live in a beheading culture, defenstration culture, castration culture or flaying culture.

we DO however live in a rape culture. rape hits too close to home. there are sexual abuse victims who watch the show. people who have been beheaded are no watching the show.

[jaimecersei]

I have a vision of that scene. I hope they do it the way i have it in my head. My vision, we never actually see her boobs or anything. Just shots of her face and her shoulders and the bottom part of her legs and feet as she walks. Then the heckling begins and you see her face wince when that guy says "My wife's got better ones than that!" and "Behold the royal teats!" And then of course the guy with the rat-on-a-stick going all "Want some, Your Grace?" and pushing it forward and you hear a vaguely familiar voice calling: "HOT PIES GET YOUR HOT PIES!" Cersei is moving along but it feels like shes moving slowly. Shot of her bare feet stepping on nasty stuff like filth and broken glass. Cersei's face, she tries not to visibly grimace. And then id have an audio shift where the crowd begins sounding like people we know. Robert's voice is heard: "Was there ever a time where it could work for us?" Ned's voice talking about the mercy of her children, Jaime's voice, Tyrion's voice where he says the "and the joy will turn to ashes in your mouth" line. Then Tywin's voice "you are not as smart as you think you are..." Sansa's voice "I want to be queen like you." Joffrey's voice, and maybe Margaery's voice. Finally Tommen's voice and thats when she breaks. We see her stop for a moment and thats the only time we actually see a full body shot but its from behind. Then she covers herself and makes a break for it and falls at the steps of Maegor's and shes being helped up and the shot fades out with her own sobs.

I so hope they do it that way. That scene really shouldnt have a full frontal. At least its not necessary. Its all about her expressions. D&D, MAKE IT SO!

that sounds incredible. which makes me convinced that D&D will not convey it this way. no but seriously, just like with almost everything else i'm pretty sure the meaning of the walk of shame and the purpose its serves in the story and just the nuances of it completely flew over D&D's head because they're fucking stupid.

i honestly expect them to focus more on lena's body than her feelings/expressions/breakdown, as well as make the walk of shame as something for the audience to cheer over (i know some gross fucks do cheer over the walk of shame but thats NOT the narrative purpose of it in the book) instead of feel cersei's psychological breakdown like it was in the book.

[Sun]

It's rape only if it transgresses consensual boundaries established by both parties. So, no, it's not rape, since the show's view is that such a sexual dynamic is more-or-less normal for the pair, though the circumstances were more grotesque and emotionally fraught than normal.

The show's view? The show's view is what we see on screen, and what I saw was rape.

[Ran]

Yeah. I saw them practicing a juggling routine, myself. :)

[Sun]

Yeah. I saw them practicing a juggling routine, myself. :)

Yes, I see them juggling every time they make a comment in the press about the scene. Now we see a green ball, now a red. It's all quite entertaining really.

[Ran]

Yeah.

In all seriousness, no, the "show's view" is not what you see. The show's view of things is its continuity, its cause and effect. What you see does not influence that. What the writers see, that's what decides it all. They control the narrative. Once it's out there, it's for you to interpret, but your interpretation does not create anything, does not control anything. It's just your perception.

You really have two options:

1) See it as the badly edited and conceived, dark but consensual sex scene they intended.

2) See it as the rape scene you conceive it to be, and probably become increasingly angsty over the fact that the show might blithely continue as if no rape occured. Which NCW seems to suggest will happen, when there's a "payoff" to the scene at the end of the season which, apparently, turns on their intent rather than anyone's interpretation.

[The Prophet of Patch]

Yeah.

In all seriousness, no, the "show's view" is not what you see. The show's view of things is its continuity, its cause and effect. What you see does not influence that. What the writers see, that's what decides it all. They control the narrative. Once it's out there, it's for you to interpret, but your interpretation does not create anything, does not control anything. It's just your perception.

You really have two options:

1) See it as the badly edited and conceived, dark but consensual sex scene they intended.

2) See it as the rape scene you conceive it to be, and probably become increasingly angsty over the fact that the show might blithely continue as if no rape occured. Which NCW seems to suggest will happen, when there's a "payoff" to the scene at the end of the season which, apparently, turns on their intent rather than anyone's interpretation.

I think this thread should be locked now, you pretty much summed it up!

Or a third option, become willfully optimistic and choose to believe that D&D wanted to emphasize the creeptasticness of that scene while creating a discussion about rape culture! MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

[Mr Fixit]

Fixit I think you are letting yourself down here - if someone treated your sister or any other female relative like Mero did Missandei would you really not see that as sexual assault?

I do think it's inadmissible behaviour, and yes, I would be really upset if anyone treated my sister that way. In fact I was present when something similar occurred. I just found it over-the-top when Patrick Stormborn, of all the acts of hideous brutality peppered liberally throughout the books/show, mentioned this as further evidence of the show's maltreatment of women. Such scenes, in my honest view, should be frowned upon if they're glamourising or romanticising violence of sexual or any other kind. In the scene with Mero, however, it was obvious that the guy was your garden variety chauvinist pig who generally treats women like trash. We, the audience, were meant do be disgusted with this guy.

I don't know. I get what you're saying. But I have difficulty taking all of these criticisms seriously because they're so often in service of an agenda. To me personally, superficially innocuous things like Jerry Springer or that hideous show about little girl dancers, their freak mothers, and pageants are much more sinister because they disguise twisted and aberrant behaviour behind socially acceptable veneer. I can fully understand how people who religiously follow such drivel (and others of its kind) and are raised accordingly, can develop a fundamentally warped sense of decency and morality.

On the other hand, I just can't and won't believe that graphic depictions of violence, including sexual, that aren't done for purposes of romanticising the violence or blaming the victim, but as a brutal reminder of just how horrible it can be to act upon baser instincts of mankind, are somehow "exceedingly problematic". Showing violence in all its ugliness, if it's not an end unto itself, can serve to sensitise people to the problem.

[Hard Hugh]

we don't live in a beheading culture, defenstration culture, castration culture or flaying culture.

we DO however live in a rape culture. rape hits too close to home. there are sexual abuse victims who watch the show. people who have been beheaded are no watching the show.

See I think having rape on the show is an accurate portrayal of the brutal and savage nature of the world Martin has created. I just don't think we need to toss in extra examples that weren’t in the book. This particular example was especially troubling in the effect it has on the story and Jamie’s character. I have a very hard time believing this was just a horrible accident of bad shooting. It’s not like they do the show live in one take. They probably shot this scene multiple times and various edits…this is the one they chose. Then they tried to backpedal after everyone’s outrage.