Wise Man's Fear X (SPOILERS)

[john]

The rancid butter though people. The RANCID BUTTER! :P

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

John,

Loosening the saddle cinches? That really could kill someone. Kvothe doesn't do what Ambrose did. But his pokes at Ambrose were not ment in fun.

[Slick Mongoose]

Don't forget setting fire to his room.

Sure, Kvothe knew there was nobody in there, but look at it from Ambrose's point of view.

[john]

Ah, he was 15. It's all just a bit of a laugh.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

They're both dicks. Ambrose is just a bigger dick.

[unJon]

This thread is funny.

On topic: Vigilante justice is still murder, even if the killed committed a capital crime.

[thistlepong]

This thread is funny.

The rancid butter is Manet.

[lysmonger]

I don't think anyone can judge Kvothe fairly given his circumstances. Granted he is what now seventeen? Kvothe was a feral child for five years living with major depressive disorder. Kids that grew up feral have speaking and communication disorders. IN Kvothe's case, he has barely any social awareness or any kind of concept of theory of mind. He completely forgets multiple times to let people know that he is ok- like when the boat he was wrecked. He hardly knows any of the background information of his friends like the fact one of them is a noble.

Granted, I don't think its fair to say Kvothe isn't truly aware of the extent his feud with Ambrose is. But can you expect him not to be like that?

[Proudfeet]

That's not 'malice'... that's being clever after his mind returned from the doors of forgetfulness after a 3+ year sabbatical and found him living on a chimney half feral. We're talking about a child who found everyone he'd ever known brutally cut to pieces by demonic beings, who wandered in the woods for a few months, and managed to not get killed while living like an animal in Tarbean for 3 years. After going through all of that, I'd hardly call tricking a tailor into providing you nice clothes at a low price "Malicious" Moreover, when he returned to Tarbean 2 years later he paid back the tailor, bookbinder, cobbler and Trapis.

Kvothe didn't intend to harm any of those people, nor did he.

I suppose in your opinion in Lord of the Rings Aragorn is an unredeemable scum bag because he withholds his true name from Frodo for a time?

You mean after he colluded with the University admissions clerk to cheat the Maer and became fairly rich? Bullying the tailor and cheating bookbinder may not be malicious, but your point about him "acted decidedly against his own self interests in order to help others" is plainly not true. He was always nice to Trapis anyway, what are you on about?

Also, are you not going to defend his actions against Hemme? I thought some folk need killing, don't jerks need burning?

Look, I'm not saying Kvothe is evil, but your constant white washing of his actions is really unreasonable. Kvothe is a kid with power and does what he wants. He generally has good intentions, but he serves himself first and he can also be quite petty.

Putting aside that Frodo is a country bumpkin who wouldn't know Aragorn from Denethor from Theoden, Aragorn didn't take advantage of Frodo. Kvothe took advantage of the tailor. Maybe if he pretended to be Elrond, but Strider is not much different from Aragorn from Frodo's point of view.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

He desperately needed a good horse to reach Severen as quickly as possible, yet he gave away the horses to the 3 people in town who needed them most.

When he finally had a bit of money early on, despite his many glaring personal needs, he spent a considerable sum on things to make Auri's life a bit easier.

He could've sold the denner for 100 talents but instead used it to try and kill the Draccus.

As for Alveron, Kvothe saved the man's life, killed the Chandrian led bandits, and won him his wife... For the first deed alone Alveron himself said land and titles would be but token thanks. If Kvothe can use the Maer's 'scholarship' to turn Hemme's dick-ish behavior into a boon, I don't see the harm in that? I suppose you're right though, he should've written home to ask for a bit more money to aid his studies ... Oh, wait, everyone he knew was butchered by the Chandrian when he was 11.

Are you suggesting he should've resigned himself to his fate and remained a beggar in Tarbean rather than use his wits to improve his life?

Kvothe is prideful and very clever. That hardly makes him a bad person. When one finds one's self in an untenable position one generally uses what resources are at one's disposal to improve that position.

[J1n]

I think saying Kvothe colluded to cheat the Maer would infer that the Maer wouldn't figure out what he's doing and also is completely incapable of cancelling that credit card. In fact as wise as the Maer is I might assume he pretty much intended that writ for Kvothe to use in any way he wanted. in the end he can always send out Dagon to drag him back to Severin and cut his thumbs off.

I think an event that better supports your argument is when he steals the taxes and takes more for himself than he gives to the others.

Are there any theories about those taxes btw? I always figured the fact that they were specifically meant as a fealty or something to another king was telling of the overarching plot of bumping off royal successors showing us who the chandrian might be backing to take the throne.

[matt b]

I am afraid that is what they are arguing. And that is largely what vexes me.

No, they're not. By taking the stance that Kvothe is a perfect little angel you've created a situation where everyone else has to be arguing that he's the devil, despite the fact that nobody actually is. There's plenty of evidence in the books to suggest that things aren't exactly what they seem on the surface, so why not look a little deeper? Why so quick to take everything Kvothe tells you at face value?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SotMA,

Those actions don't make Kvothe the Devil but the certainly don't make him an angel either. Kvothe rides the line pretty hard. What Kilvin is trying to teach is "best practices" not "technical legality". Kvothe is big on the legalities, except when he's over the line.

[Proudfeet]

He desperately needed a good horse to reach Severen as quickly as possible, yet he gave away the horses to the 3 people in town who needed them most.

When he finally had a bit of money early on, despite his many glaring personal needs, he spent a considerable sum on things to make Auri's life a bit easier.

He could've sold the denner for 100 talents but instead used it to try and kill the Draccus.

As for Alveron, Kvothe saved the man's life, killed the Chandrian led bandits, and won him his wife... For the first deed alone Alveron himself said land and titles would be but token thanks. If Kvothe can use the Maer's 'scholarship' to turn Hemme's dick-ish behavior into a boon, I don't see the harm in that? I suppose you're right though, he should've written home to ask for a bit more money to aid his studies ... Oh, wait, everyone he knew was butchered by the Chandrian when he was 11.

Are you suggesting he should've resigned himself to his fate and remained a beggar in Tarbean rather than use his wits to improve his life?

Kvothe is prideful and very clever. That hardly makes him a bad person. When one finds one's self in an untenable position one generally uses what resources are at one's disposal to improve that position.

Yeah, thats what I said. He has good intentions but he serves himself first. Never said he was a selfish prick. You on the other hand, are making him out to be selfless.

My point was that he only compensated the Tarbean shopkeepers when he was comfortably well off. It's not like he was saving up to eventually repay them. And his cheating is a recurring pattern of him taking advantage of other people. He could also have worked as he did in the Fishery and in the Eolian to meet his needs. He was throwing money around at that point.

No, I'm not saying that Kvothe should have remained in Tarbean, but just because he needed to doesn't mean he didn't screw other people over. You keep justifying it as if Kvothe is special. He is an exceptionally talented person but he is also just another person.

And yes, keep on ignoring my point on Hemme. Like how you ruled out Ambrose right from the start.

I think saying Kvothe colluded to cheat the Maer would infer that the Maer wouldn't figure out what he's doing and also is completely incapable of cancelling that credit card. In fact as wise as the Maer is I might assume he pretty much intended that writ for Kvothe to use in any way he wanted. in the end he can always send out Dagon to drag him back to Severin and cut his thumbs off.

I think an event that better supports your argument is when he steals the taxes and takes more for himself than he gives to the others.

Are there any theories about those taxes btw? I always figured the fact that they were specifically meant as a fealty or something to another king was telling of the overarching plot of bumping off royal successors showing us who the chandrian might be backing to take the throne.

I'm not arguing that Kvothe is evil, I'm arguing that he tries to take advantage whenever he can. Nothing wrong with that of course, but its something to consider when trying to claim that Kvothe is a good/nice guy.

No, they're not. By taking the stance that Kvothe is a perfect little angel you've created a situation where everyone else has to be arguing that he's the devil, despite the fact that nobody actually is. There's plenty of evidence in the books to suggest that things aren't exactly what they seem on the surface, so why not look a little deeper? Why so quick to take everything Kvothe tells you at face value?

This. Bast calls him out on it and Kvothe admits to it. This is his story.

[J1n]

Sounds more like Kvothe just acts according to the nature of his world. Especially when money is concerned. I think it says a lot about his character that despite the way people are he pays them back. Especially the bookbinder who i think easily deserved to get cheated.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

J1n,

What did the bookbinder do that was so terrible?

[J1n]

Going off memory... Isn't he basically a fence that tried to give Kvothe a false receipt under the assumption that he was illiterate? or am i thinking of a different event?

edit - well not really a fence but acting as one where the purchase of assumed stolen goods is concerned.

[Proudfeet]

Shrug. You are looking from Kvothe's point of view.

From the bookbinder's point of view, a dirty beggar kid comes in with a book. He then suspects that Kvothe stole it off some one else and is now trying to get money for it.

Also, the nature of the world is a rather poor excuse. The world has all kinds of people, for example Sim is a very different kind of person from Kvothe. Just as in the real word.

[AncalagonTheBlack]

Pat was on the 'Rulers of the Realm' epic fantasy panel at SDCC with GRRM, Abercrombie, Hobb,Lev Grossman and Diana Gabaldon.

Is there a video up yet ? I would really like to watch this.

[J1n]

Shrug. You are looking from Kvothe's point of view.

From the bookbinder's point of view, a dirty beggar kid comes in with a book. He then suspects that Kvothe stole it off some one else and is now trying to get money for it.

Also, the nature of the world is a rather poor excuse. The world has all kinds of people, for example Sim is a very different kind of person from Kvothe. Just as in the real word.

i meant that as from the bookbinders point of view. i mean he see's exactly that but it doesn't seem to deter him from immediately trying to strong arm the boy. however, having just given the chapter a once over. Kvothe also steals 3 pens and a bottle of ink...hahaha.

Are there any theories about how kvothe plays that song that lies "at the heart of him"? I've been listening through WMF and it occurs to me that he plays it for Vashet in the Ademre stretch of the book where its also explains the Adem equating emotion as like a nudity taboo. It always seems to me like his playing of that song is an unintentional magic like seeing but more in this case like showing. and if it is, i wonder if its at all related to the adem forming that piece of their culture. just a random thought.