The enigma of Hoster Tully, what's your take?

[juanml82]

You could blame Hoster for the terrible job he did in his later years of preparing the Riverlands for War . The Lannisters had a pretty easy time defeating the Riverlords and as Lord Paramount it's his duty to prepare his lands for warfare. The fact that Lady Whent just gave over control of Harrenhall to Tywin put the Riverlords and Robb Stark into a very bad situation. If Harrenhall had a strong commander who had decent garrison then Tywin would not have even tried to take it and if he did it would have cost him dearly. Without Harrenhall a base to operate from and as protection from the Riverlords and Robb Stark Tywin would have not been able to stay in the Riverlands and protect Kings Landing at the same time.

Well, it was up to Lady Whent to see to the defense of Harrenhall. I'm don't think Hoster can simply replace her. That said, he could have looked to better prepare the Riverlands for a new war after Robert's Rebellion. Just like Ned, he got complacent. People in this forum often discuss how the Riverlands are indefensible but the truth is, they aren't. All those rivers make excellent defensive positions for a defense in depth. Then again, it's mostly Edmure, not Hoster's fault. He (sensibly) tried to defend every inch of land by holding his borders, when he should have evacuated (costly, though), moved as many food as possible deep into the Riverlands and put his forces to defend every ford and bridge

Ok, some people are calling him an asshole for putting villages to the torch. Ned would have done the same exact thing to a place like Castle Cerwyn had they not supported the Starks.

We don't know. As much as I consider Ned a dangerous, foolish warmonger, he never intentionally put entire villages to the sword and he does have a thing for the killing of (highborn) children.

Less effective Tywin, putting the village to the sword isn't going to terrify most of your lords, only the ones who care about their smallfolk. He should of put Goodbrook to the sword if he wanted to send a message.

Well, Lords get their income from taxing commoners so even a cruel Lord would sit back and consider it.

Ok, my bad...But do you really think Lysa is capable of truly loving anybody? She's psycho, and I don't blame her insanity on Hoster. Cat remembers she was happy when Robb was born.

Of course she's capable of loving people. She loved her son, Littlefinger and probably Marillion and other people.

Are you seriously asking this question?

Yes, because he was rich. Because he had high social status, which passed to her as his wife. Because he was the second most powerful man in the kingdoms - which made her, in a way, the second most powerful woman after the Queen.

And not for nothing, but marrying Jon Arryn also allowed her to be close to Littlefinger, which is the only thing she wanted in life - an opportunity she wouldn't have had if she had married some Ryger or Grell.

Well, as the OP said, it's useless to marry her to Jon Arryn if, by doing so, she ends up hating his guts. Hoster could have bargained harder for the life of Lysa's baby. However, that probably meant the marriage was to be postponed until after the war and he'd miss the opportunity to put Lysa in command of the Vale if Jon Arryn died in the war but the rebels still won.

As for accepting Robb as King in the North and making the Riverlands their vassals, the situation was kind of forced upon Edmure (and Robb). It made peace a lot harder and it did solve a leadership issue as, as things stood, both Hoster/Edmure and Robb were of the same rank, which isn't a good thing in warfare.

[Boarsbane]

Tywin's father being a weakling was something that Tywin took personal issue with because he was a prideful asshole.

Putting down rebellious lords probably wasn't that hard. Two houses vs. the rest of the Westerlands? Sounds like an easy win to me. And since they all seemed to have been killed in their castles, it didn't seem like it was much of a fight.

Hoster's wife died in childbirth too, and I'm sure he loved her too. That Tyrion is a dwarf is only a problem because, once again, Tywin is a prideful asshole. Tyrion being a dwarf is only a problem because Tywin thinks its a problem. Kevan, Gerion, Tygett and Genna had absolutely no problem with Tyrion.

He took issue with it because it threatened his life. The Reynes and Tarbecks REBELLED, they would of wiped the Lannisters out if they got the chance.

The Reynes and Tarbecks were the two most powerful bannermen in the West and Tywin was 18 and not even lord yet. So maybe not as easy a win as it sounds to you. And how do you figure they were killed in their castles, it is stated they rebelled so one would think the person rebelling wouldn't just sit in their castle and wait for the enemy to come kill them.

Tyrion isn't their son, Tywin's own bannermen laugh at Tyrion, even in Tywin's presence. I think it is safe to assume most people would not be happy about a dwarf as a son, Tywin isn't an outlier in this.

[Bob Sacamano]

Only it wasn't said by a PoV, it was said by some who lived there. But of course they knew nothing and no Ned wasn't always with Hoster.

I said it probably applies to other characters, I don't think all non-POVs are omnipotent, and always say exactly what happened. And, honestly, at that time, I would think Ned was with him. Wasn't that right after the marriage?

[TheCrannogDweller]

:bs: You still failed to answer me. Why a village doesn't deserve as much as a highborn family?

Because it doesn't. Smallfolk are expendable, noble families are not. Hate it as much as you want, but that is how things are in a medieval society.

Also, we don't know what happened to Lord Goodbrook. He might've lost his head that day, along with the village.

He took issue with it because it threatened his life. The Reynes and Tarbecks REBELLED, they would of wiped the Lannisters out if they got the chance.

The Reynes and Tarbecks were the two most powerful bannermen in the West and Tywin was 18 and not even lord yet. So maybe not as easy a win as it sounds to you. And how do you figure they were killed in their castles, it is stated they rebelled so one would think the person rebelling wouldn't just sit in their castle and wait for the enemy to come kill them.

I actually have no issue with the way Tywin dealt with the Reynes and the Tarbecks. I have a problem with most of his other actions, but in this case he was well within his rights and he was acting out of self-preservation, too.

[Fat Mac]

The Reynes and Tarbecks were the two most powerful bannermen in the West and Tywin was 18 and not even lord yet. So maybe not as easy a win as it sounds to you. And how do you figure they were killed in their castles, it is stated they rebelled so one would think the person rebelling wouldn't just sit in their castle and wait for the enemy to come kill them.

I made a mistake with the rebellion. Apparently, Ellyn Tarbeck was killed when her castle came "crashing in around her." I confused that with Tywin wiping out the houses in their castles, so that's on me...

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I said it probably applies to other characters, I don't think all non-POVs are omnipotent, and always say exactly what happened. And, honestly, at that time, I would think Ned was with him. Wasn't that right after the marriage?

You mean that other characters being monsters or being unreliable? Because what we learn about Hoster is what a man who lives there is telling us. From all we know he could had done it either before the wedding or after the Rebellion but even if Ned was there I highly doubt that he would had done anything at this point.

Because it doesn't. Smallfolk are expendable, noble families are not. Hate it as much as you want, but that is how things are in a medieval society.

Also, we don't know what happened to Lord Goodbrook. He might've lost his head that day, along with the village.

In medieval society if someone was a traitor he would die, sometimes along with his family, no matter his status. So what Tywin did was acceptable in medieval.

Also what if Lord Goodbrook died?

[TheCrannogDweller]

In medieval society if someone was a traitor he would die, sometimes along with his family, no matter his status. So what Tywin did was acceptable in medieval.

Yes, as I said above, I have no problem with how Tywin dealt with the Reynes and the Tarbecks. They were sworn to his father and they rebelled against him. They deserved their fate.

But what he did to Tysha, Elia and the kids, the Riverlands, and his son was monstrous.

[The Wolves]

Yes, as I said above, I have no problem with how Tywin dealt with the Reynes and the Tarbecks. They were sworn to his father and they rebelled against him. They deserved their fate.

But what he did to Tysha, Elia and the kids, the Riverlands, and his son was monstrous.

If there were children in the Reynes and Tarbecks family than they didn't deserve that fate.

[Blackfish Tully]

Hoster Tully.” Notch was a stooped thin grey-haired man, born in these parts “This was Lord Goodbrook’s village. When Riverrun declared for Robert, Goodbrook stayed loyal to the king, so Lord Tully came down on him with fire and sword. After the Trident, Goodbrook’s son made his peace with Robert and Lord Hoster, but that didn’t help the dead none."

The quote says that Lord Tully came down on him with Fire and Sword . That doesn't mean he put the whole village to the sword . Anytime somebody attacks a village you could say they "came down on it with fire and sword."

we don't know anything about how many people were killed. I find hard to believe that they killed everybody in the whole village and unless there is another quote that says that i would be careful about assuming it.

[TheCrannogDweller]

If there were children in the Reynes and Tarbecks family than they didn't deserve that fate.

No, the kids were innocent. That part was self-preservation. It's an attrocity, but I can understand why Tywin thought it was necessary. After all, those kids will grow up and will want revenge. It was bloody work but it ensured that he wouldn't have to repeat the lesson.

FWIW, I'm willing to believe that he also slaughtered their smallfolk, along with the army.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

You guys remember the sacking of kings landing'rape of ellia, her brutal murder along with her children, right? Add to that giving Ser Barry a day to save the mad king before puttinh Duskendale's village :) ;), my bad Town to torch and rape of the riverlands and we get a beautifull picture of how merciful Tywin was towards the innocent smallfolk. :) :) :)

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

I think I will start a thread titled an enigma that is Stark family. I am sure I will find enough of their monstrosity.. :) :) :)

[juanml82]

Because it doesn't. Smallfolk are expendable, noble families are not. Hate it as much as you want, but that is how things are in a medieval society.

Also, we don't know what happened to Lord Goodbrook. He might've lost his head that day, along with the village.

While the Westerosi are definitely biased towards the aristocracy, I'm not so sure if smallfolk are expendable and noble families are not. The latter are far more powerful, that's for sure. But if you have lands without a Lord, you can always promote a commoner or award them to a second son, knight, etc. If you, instead, have a Lord without smallfolk, that Lord doesn't have any income and is, therefore, useless.

Hoster Tully.” Notch was a stooped thin grey-haired man, born in these parts “This was Lord Goodbrook’s village. When Riverrun declared for Robert, Goodbrook stayed loyal to the king, so Lord Tully came down on him with fire and sword. After the Trident, Goodbrook’s son made his peace with Robert and Lord Hoster, but that didn’t help the dead none."

The quote says that Lord Tully came down on him with Fire and Sword . That doesn't mean he put the whole village to the sword . Anytime somebody attacks a village you could say they "came down on it with fire and sword."

we don't know anything about how many people were killed. I find hard to believe that they killed everybody in the whole village and unless there is another quote that says that i would be careful about assuming it.

The village remains abandoned fifteen years later, which would hardly be the case if there were survivors.

[jarl the climber]

While the Westerosi are definitely biased towards the aristocracy, I'm not so sure if smallfolk are expendable and noble families are not. The latter are far more powerful, that's for sure. But if you have lands without a Lord, you can always promote a commoner or award them to a second son, knight, etc. If you, instead, have a Lord without smallfolk, that Lord doesn't have any income and is, therefore, useless.

The village remains abandoned fifteen years later, which would hardly be the case if there were survivors.

Well there might have been survivors like there were at Saltpans but the fact that it was left abandoned seems to indicate that whoever could not or did not flee were put to the sword.

When labor becomes scarce it does change the dynamic between the Lord and the smallfolk. Unfortunately for the smallfolk this leads to good times, they have lots of kids and things return to their normal state.

[Blackfish Tully]

The village remains abandoned fifteen years later, which would hardly be the case if there were survivors.

The villagers could have moved on to another village once they were burned out.

As far as i know nothing in the text states that everybody in the village was killed and i have a hard time believing that Hoster Tully would kill everybody in a village because they didn't support him.

After every war there are probably villages that are abandoned but it does not mean everybody is killed.

[VermithorSunni]

I kind of like Hoster. One of his daughters, Catlyn, was sensible and loved him. That says something.

I don't blame Hoster for Lysa becoming crazy and paranoid. I think that's her own responsibility, even if the first abortion put her over the edge. If she'd been Lyanna Stark she would have been smart enough to know that disobeying her father meant she would need to run away.

What I really don't agree with is the comparison between Tywin ordering Tysha's rape by numerous men, and Hoster having Lysa abort a fetus. Hoster did the least necessary to bring about his desired result -that is, ending Lysa's pregnancy and making her suitable for a decent marriage with the honorable, powerful, high born Jon Arryn, who treated her well even by her own account (his bad breath and age aside).

Tywin went out of his way not just to end Tyrion's first marriage, but to humiliate both bride and groom by creating a lie about their marriage (that Tysha was a whore). Even on on threat of death Tywin did not acknowledge his lie ("wherever whores go.") Tysha was not a whore… until Tywin had her raped by his numerous soldiers, and then forced Tyrion to partake, shaming both Tyrion and Tysha. That is just part of what makes Tywin a monster.

Nothing that Hoster Tully ever did remotely compares with this twisted scenario. Hoster had every right to choose Lysa's husband, and to deliver her as a childless bride.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Eh, but most lords would have done exactly as Hoster did.

Goodbrook - he was rebelling against his Liege lord. What was Hoster suppose to do, sit on his bum and watch the enemies' armies expand? Yeah, it was terrible for the smallfolk, but that's war.

Blackfish - it's probably not common to arrange marriages for your siblings, but Brynden had a duty to his house. Besides, it's not as if Brynden completely abandoned his house; he went back to Riverrun, eventually. Not a big deal.

Lysa - Hoster didn't need her amity for the Tully-Arryn alliance to work, and he probably thought young Lysa would come to accept her duty (as is expected of all noble children). Who could predict that LF would keep fueling her fantasies?

Frey - he was spiteful and untrustworthy, and all the greater houses looked down on him; it wasn't just Hoster. All Frey wanted was to unload his ugly children, anyway. Hoster had better options.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I kind of like Hoster. One of his daughters, Catlyn, was sensible and loved him. That says something.

Edmure is a kind sane man and he loves him too. And despite their problems, BF also loved his brother. I don't know if is fair to judge Hosten according to Lysa.

[Lee-Sensei]

He wasn't nearly as ruthless as Tywin. He did put Lord Goodbrook's town to the torch, but he didn't execute every member of the House.

He also prioritized strengthening his political position at the expense of his relationship with his daughter.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

He also prioritized strengthening his political position at the expense of his relationship with his daughter.

Who in Westeros doesnt do that ? Anyway who told lysa to pick a clearly drunk lf and get knocked up by him? All her future trouble came from that delusional fantasy that he loved her.