They had found him still holding her body... Who's They?

[Starspear]

The Tower of Joy was the Crown Prince's palace. There were servants there.

Well, then I would have appreciated:

"The servants of the Prince found him still holding..."

[Coyote Starrk]

LordStoneheart has the right of it. Wylla seems to be part of Ned's cover story, which makes most sense if she already was at the ToJ as a midwife and possible wetnurse.

I have to agree with this.

it makes the most sense given the situation.

[The guy from the Vale]

The Tower of Joy was the Crown Prince's palace. There were servants there.

Dragonstone was Rhaegar's castle. The Tower of Joy was a small, previously abandoned watchtower in the Mountains of Dorne. There may nhave been a servant or two there, and I think there were, but the premise you're coming to your conclusion with is false - the ToJ was far smaller than your description.

[Mithras]

Quaithe, Xaro Xhoan Daxos and Pyat Pree. They said they came to see the dragon.

[Mikkel]

Dragonstone was Rhaegar's castle. The Tower of Joy was a small, previously abandoned watchtower in the Mountains of Dorne. There may nhave been a servant or two there, and I think there were, but the premise you're coming to your conclusion with is false - the ToJ was far smaller than your description.

True, the Tower of Joy was no castle. Just a watchtower and an infantile reference to Rhaegar's manhood :P

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think we can assume that there was a cook/maid, a squire and a midwife. possibly a man to care for the horses.

[joluoto2]

I think we can assume that there was a cook/maid, a squire and a midwife. possibly a man to care for the horses.

Yes, and since there were three kingsguard, there might even have been three squires (but one of them could have taken care of the horses in case they didn't have a stable boy). Another possibility is either a Septa or a Maester to help Lyanna give birth.

[Swordofthemornin]

Yes, and since there were three kingsguard, there might even have been three squires (but one of them could have taken care of the horses in case they didn't have a stable boy). Another possibility is either a Septa or a Maester to help Lyanna give birth.

They clearly didn't help her enough..

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yes, I think the fact Lyanna dies seemingly from Childbed Fever implies that she did not have a Maester, Septa's are not Medically trained they are religious educators, they teach the seven pointed star and feminine crafts to high born girls, singing, needlework etc. A silent Sister is a special order of septas who are trained in stripping flesh from bones and preparing the dead for burial.

they (septas) don't have anything to do with medical care.

Lyanna seems to have died from the fever which was common before we understood about hygene, so I'd say she had no one or at most a smallfolk midwife. certainly it seems that the birth happened under unsanitary conditions, I think the Maesters would understand about this and avoid it. But three unwed knights and a squire or two, a common cook and say stable hand don't. No one thought oh she should not be exposed to unhygienic things, it seems she was still in her bed of blood when he found her, ie still laying in the blood, feaces, urine, meconium, amniotic fluid etc. Nice......You can see why infection set it. maybe she was weakened by the birth as it was a tough one, and the midwife the smallfolk called for said don't move her she needs to rest. and the infection sets in because of all the grotty sheets?

I get the impression a MAester would have known to get her cleaned up asap.

[Mikkel]

Yes, I think the fact Lyanna dies seemingly from Childbed Fever implies that she did not have a Maester, Septa's are not Medically trained they are religious educators, they teach the seven pointed star and feminine crafts to high born girls, singing, needlework etc. A silent Sister is a special order of septas who are trained in stripping flesh from bones and preparing the dead for burial.

they (septas) don't have anything to do with medical care.

Lyanna seems to have died from the fever which was common before we understood about hygene, so I'd say she had no one or at most a smallfolk midwife. certainly it seems that the birth happened under unsanitary conditions, I think the Maesters would understand about this and avoid it. But three unwed knights and a squire or two, a common cook and say stable hand don't. No one thought oh she should not be exposed to unhygienic things, it seems she was still in her bed of blood when he found her, ie still laying in the blood, feaces, urine, meconium, amniotic fluid etc. Nice......You can see why infection set it. maybe she was weakened by the birth as it was a tough one, and the midwife the smallfolk called for said don't move her she needs to rest. and the infection sets in because of all the grotty sheets?

I get the impression a MAester would have known to get her cleaned up asap.

Good points, though I don't think Lyanna dying necessarily disproves the attendance of a Maester, as dying in childbirth is not uncommon, even in highborn women attended by Maesters. Lyanna being only 15 or so (16 tops, IIRC) is rather young to be giving birth after all.

All in all, it does, as you say, imply the absence of a medical professional though.

[Ygrain]

They clearly didn't help her enough..

Yes, I think the fact Lyanna dies seemingly from Childbed Fever implies that she did not have a Maester, Septa's are not Medically trained they are religious educators, they teach the seven pointed star and feminine crafts to high born girls, singing, needlework etc. A silent Sister is a special order of septas who are trained in stripping flesh from bones and preparing the dead for burial.

they (septas) don't have anything to do with medical care.

Lyanna seems to have died from the fever which was common before we understood about hygene, so I'd say she had no one or at most a smallfolk midwife. certainly it seems that the birth happened under unsanitary conditions, I think the Maesters would understand about this and avoid it. But three unwed knights and a squire or two, a common cook and say stable hand don't. No one thought oh she should not be exposed to unhygienic things, it seems she was still in her bed of blood when he found her, ie still laying in the blood, feaces, urine, meconium, amniotic fluid etc. Nice......You can see why infection set it. maybe she was weakened by the birth as it was a tough one, and the midwife the smallfolk called for said don't move her she needs to rest. and the infection sets in because of all the grotty sheets?

I get the impression a MAester would have known to get her cleaned up asap.

Good points, though I don't think Lyanna dying necessarily disproves the attendance of a Maester, as dying in childbirth is not uncommon, even in highborn women attended by Maesters. Lyanna being only 15 or so (16 tops, IIRC) is rather young to be giving birth after all.

All in all, it does, as you say, imply the absence of a medical professional though.

All it implies is the lack of sanitary conditions and ATBs, both unknown in Westeros. Jane Seymour, a frikkin' Queen of England, died of puerperal fever. I would also point out that when Dr Semmelweis gave thought to the origins of childbed fever, it was because the new mothers treated by medically untrained midwives fared suspiciously much better than those treated by doctors, so the lack of medical training =/= automatically worse care. - Not saying that this was necessarily the case of Westeros but I sure wouldn't underestimate the knowledge of a midwife, as the vast majority of Westeros certainly didn't have the privilege of being attended by a Maester.

And BTW, "bed of blood" doesn't mean that Lyanna was lying in a pool of old blood, the bleeding continues for weeks after childbirth, and even with changing pads frequently, there is a bed of blood in no time, especially if the birthing went badly and the infection set in.

[Grizzly Mormont]

The tower was small enough that Ned, with whomever else was there, was able to destroy it afterwards to build graves... I always found this strange, but there it is. Whoever was left was enough to rip apart a tower.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

Howland Reed, Ser Arthur Dayne and Wylla.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yea i wouldn't say it looks impossible that she had a Maester but its implied in the text, the way Ned tells us he found her in her bed of blood, that he mentions a fever and that childbed fever was a common killer.

Yes of course Maester attended births can also end in the mothers or childs deaths but look at the examples we have in text, Lyanna, highly unlikely to have had a maester, Joanna Lannister, was giving birth to a deformed baby, this ups the risks massively as chances are Tyrion was coming out in the wrong position and the circumference of his head was larger than average. we're told she was split open by him so Its likely she died from heavy blood loss due to an awkward breach delivery of a large headed baby. Rhaella, we know she was over 40, and we know that births in women over 35 even today carry much higher risks.

All unusual or known risky births.

[Swordofthemornin]

As for who "they" were, I think it means Jon & Howland.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

All it implies is the lack of sanitary conditions and ATBs, both unknown in Westeros. Jane Seymour, a frikkin' Queen of England, died of puerperal fever. I would also point out that when Dr Semmelweis gave thought to the origins of childbed fever, it was because the new mothers treated by medically untrained midwives fared suspiciously much better than those treated by doctors, so the lack of medical training =/= automatically worse care. - Not saying that this was necessarily the case of Westeros but I sure wouldn't underestimate the knowledge of a midwife, as the vast majority of Westeros certainly didn't have the privilege of being attended by a Maester.

And BTW, "bed of blood" doesn't mean that Lyanna was lying in a pool of old blood, the bleeding continues for weeks after childbirth, and even with changing pads frequently, there is a bed of blood in no time, especially if the birthing went badly and the infection set in.

I always get the impression that Maesters are a whole lot more clued up than the equivalent in the real world were at that time. hell even today the USA which is one of the wealthiest countries in the world has had a rapidly rising and frankly shameful maternal death rate since the 1970's. having risen from just over 9 in every 100,000 to 24 per 100,000 in 2008, Too much interference etc. being the generally accepted reason. The Dr's have and still do more harm than good quite frequently. I'm a huge supporter of Midwife led care IRL. Its just that in the books I've always felt that Maesters seem to be a lot more knowledgeable than our own Dr's ever were in the middle ages. And yes It was a really common way to go, sadly. I think its pretty acceptable to presume this is what finished Lyanna off,

I had taken it to mean it was literally the bed she'd birthed in, and with that assumption that she died from puerperal fever I'd just always imagined it as she was laid in all the filth still. But of course you bleed for weeks PP, and of course it could just mean she was still bleeding. I guess my imagination gave me the image of a sweaty dying Lyanna in a manky bed of blood and shit. so my brain just went with that.

[Melpomene]

In context, it would make sense to have at least one figure there - the wetnurse. Historically, high ranking noblewomen would not suckle their own children, the job was always left to wetnurses.

I assume that this was thought ahead of time, that another woman would be available for the baby since Lyanna would not be doing the feeding. Could very well be likely.

Or perhaps it was just Ned's soldiers/men that arrived later on. They would have had to appear at some point, surely Ned and Howland were not the only ones to tear down an entire tower? It couldn't have been THAT tiny - 11 people were there at once, whether outside or indoors (3 guards, Ned and his 6 companions, and Lyanna. 12 people in total once you count the baby) possibly more if a nurse/servant/midwife was there. Prior to the showdown, Lyanna, Rhaegar, the knights, and those extra people would have been inside. Perhaps 5-10 people would have been able to fit within that Tower.

Rhaegar wouldn't have selected something so vunerable, even if remote. "Alrighty, let's put my heavily pregnant mistress in a really tiny building in an isolated place with only three people who happen to know nothing about birthing, and my whole destiny depends on it" Unless he was just that silly?

In addition, he technically shouldn't have been that blind to the childbirth world and routines. He had two younger siblings, a currently pregnant mother, and had his own two babies via Elia. He was even in the room with Elia after Aegon was born.

Admittedly however, Considering that Lyanna died , something off definitely happened. I never personally thought Rhaegar was particularly wise.

Anywany. Even if the building was small, it doesn't mean it would be easy. Windmills or lighthouses are not particularly huge, in fact quite snug and petite, but has anyone tried to tear one down with just two people? With weather involved.

It would have taken Ned and Howland a heck of a lot of effort, added with the heat and dryness of the area, working with stone. In any case, Ned would have had good Northern men who would have kept their quiet willingly and carried on with their lives. Many soldiers and workers have witnessed many secrets of the nobles and royals while sitting in the background, it wouldn't be so unusual. Plus, it could be possible too that the followers were wondering where their commander was and were concerned so they searched, or they were just told to hold back until the outcome of the showdone became known.

Someone would have had to bring the appropriate tools too. Swords, knives, spears/pikes and pushing could only do so much. Hammers, ropes, a catapolt/trebuchet, and so forth, would have sufficed better.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Dragonstone was Rhaegar's castle. The Tower of Joy was a small, previously abandoned watchtower in the Mountains of Dorne. There may nhave been a servant or two there, and I think there were, but the premise you're coming to your conclusion with is false - the ToJ was far smaller than your description.

Yeah, I doubt it was any larger than Baelish Keep.

[Circle_breaker]

Stark soldiers who showed up late to back up Ned.

[Dany's Silver]

Quaithe, Xaro Xhoan Daxos and Pyat Pree. They said they came to see the dragon.

:bowdown:

All it implies is the lack of sanitary conditions and ATBs, both unknown in Westeros. Jane Seymour, a frikkin' Queen of England, died of puerperal fever. I would also point out that when Dr Semmelweis gave thought to the origins of childbed fever, it was because the new mothers treated by medically untrained midwives fared suspiciously much better than those treated by doctors, so the lack of medical training =/= automatically worse care. - Not saying that this was necessarily the case of Westeros but I sure wouldn't underestimate the knowledge of a midwife, as the vast majority of Westeros certainly didn't have the privilege of being attended by a Maester.

And BTW, "bed of blood" doesn't mean that Lyanna was lying in a pool of old blood, the bleeding continues for weeks after childbirth, and even with changing pads frequently, there is a bed of blood in no time, especially if the birthing went badly and the infection set in.

IIRC, he discovered that those doctors were performing autopsies and then going upstairs to deliver babies.... with no hand washing in between. :ack: He instituted a firm hand washing policy at his hospital, and the mortality rate in the maternity ward dropped significantly!

As for the OP: Howland Reed and Wylla.