[Book Spoilers] Jojen's Burning Hand

[DaveyJoe]

^^ Yeah, I enjoy a lot of the fan theories, but Jojen paste is not one of them.

[Blazfemur]

Finally!!! Someone else thinks Jojen's paste is bullshit!! I don't know why most fans I've ever talked to before always acted like this THEORY is book canon!

Oh i can swat down theories like nobody's business. Your welcome in advance. ;)

[Blazfemur]

^^ Yeah, I enjoy a lot of the fan theories, but Jojen paste is not one of them.

it would be one thing if jojen was fine, they met bloodraven, then he disappeared and then this mystical paste was in question.

He's constantly dying, it's already in process, pre-meeting Bloodraven.

The only connection between him dying and Bloodraven, is that he's getting sicker, the closer they get to him. This could be natural causes though, and it's not like they have medicine. Could be legit caught a fever, you never know.

[CandleWisps]

Thanks for commiserating with me in misery over this issue. I don't think a lot of book fans here are giving this much thought, yet.

Here's the biggest problem: Once we've watched this stuff on the show, we can't un-watch it. When George does finally get around to finishing the next book ... we will now rush forward into territory we have already 'seen' (to some extent or another) on the show and it's like going backwards down a one way street. He can say "The writers of the show took liberties with the story line and interpretation ... " and that's all fine and true but since it's ALL we have had to go on - of course many viewers are going to take it as canon and then be confused, pissed off or outright wrong about things once they read the book later on.

This is why some of the debates I'm now seeing on these forum topics are starting to go wildly astray and turning into heated theorizing and crackpot territory. Now it's all up to interpretation and opinion... NOT book facts.

For years and years we've had the actual facts... the lore, right down to the page numbers and the quotes.

We will no longer have that going forward next season at the earliest.

I think this forum is going to be a mess. People are going to refer to the show as 'fact' instead of the books and that's just plain wrong and... just a mess.

D&D are making shit up left and right. They are inventing entire characters and scenes that never happened. And while they are good drama, good television, I won't argue that - they did not happen.

Now what?!

I just feel like my interest in this forum as a place to sort out fact from fiction is slowly draining away.

Precisely. I don't think people have entirely grasped the repurcussions coming just yet. We knew that we would be delving into unpublished material for awhile now, and for the past seasons we've known that D&D have had to consolidate/alter/erase certain plot lines for the sake of the on-screen interpretation, as well as added dramatic effect, but I don't think anyone was expecting so much to hit us so fast. I myself was expecting maybe two or three borderline spoilers from this season, and lot more next season, but we've, IMO, already been hit with major things that could potentially alter our perspective, like the Nights King (I have a problem even saying that given we don't know the textual context yet).

As far as I'm concerned, this entire forum will be a complete mess/utter chaos from here on out in certain regards. Literally everything will have to first read "well assuming what happened in so and so episode to so and so character is book!canon as well, then we can assume from this alteration in the storyline that A could be B and X could lead to Y". For strictly book readers this won't be a problem, but for those of us who watch the show too, like you said we cannot unsee it. Once that tidbit from the show gets stuck in our minds, its gonna be a complete battle of wills to try and separate canons from added drama/effect and strict book theories.

Personally, I like D&D and the show very much, and have felt that, for the most part, they have done a good job. There are others out there who could have done far worse, and at least we will always have the books if we want the first and essentail story. The fact that they add certain arcs and create additional drama to spice things up or move things along isn't necessarily what bothers me, it is necessary for some things that can't be adapted to the screen, limited budget, etc., what bothers me is not being able to categorize in my mind what is relevant to the books in the future and what is strictly the show!verse. My head just hurts trying to file away everything in my mind palace :bang:

[CandleWisps]

He's constantly sick, his skin is sweaty, he even seizured two episodes ago. He's dying. In the books, it's by fever. Fever is excessive heat, which was interpreted as fire. I may be wrong, but thats what I got from it. He knows hes dying, he can openly see it in his visions. Also, excessive fever can cause hallucinations. Maybe it wasnt even his greensight.

But it was, and it was his subconscious saying, "Ok, your time is running out, this is whats going to kill you" i.e. fever and burning up.

Yup, being that his fever was what almost did him in as a kid to begin with. Idk last night I was thinking pretty much that the fire was literal, but I like it representing his fever a lot more

[Blazfemur]

Precisely. I don't think people have entirely grasped the repurcussions coming just yet. We knew that we would be delving into unpublished material for awhile now, and for the past seasons we've known that D&D have had to consolidate/alter/erase certain plot lines for the sake of the on-screen interpretation, as well as added dramatic effect, but I don't think anyone was expecting so much to hit us so fast. I myself was expecting maybe two or three borderline spoilers from this season, and lot more next season, but we've, IMO, already been hit with major things that could potentially alter our perspective, like the Nights King (I have a problem even saying that given we don't know the textual context yet).

As far as I'm concerned, this entire forum will be a complete mess/utter chaos from here on out in certain regards. Literally everything will have to first read "well assuming what happened in so and so episode to so and so character is book!canon as well, then we can assume from this alteration in the storyline that A could be B and X could lead to Y". For strictly book readers this won't be a problem, but for those of us who watch the show too, like you said we cannot unsee it. Once that tidbit from the show gets stuck in our minds, its gonna be a complete battle of wills to try and separate canons from added drama/effect and strict book theories.

Personally, I like D&D and the show very much, and have felt that, for the most part, they have done a good job. There are others out there who could have done far worse, and at least we will always have the books if we want the first and essentail story. The fact that they add certain arcs and create additional drama to spice things up or move things along isn't necessarily what bothers me, it is necessary for some things that can't be adapted to the screen, limited budget, etc., what bothers me is not being able to categorize in my mind what is relevant to the books in the future and what is strictly the show!verse. My head just hurts trying to file away everything in my mind palace :bang:

Go to last episodes threads. and take a gander into The Other Revelation, and The Other Revelation II. Two Threads, well over 1200+ posts, and still going. I think this pretty much defines what i bolded.

[CandleWisps]

Go to last episodes threads. and take a gander into The Other Revelation, and The Other Revelation II. Two Threads, well over 1200+ posts, and still going. I think this pretty much defines what i bolded.

Ughhh I'm terrified of going in there. Tis a dark place. I would have if I had delved into them right after the episode ended, but now I feel my mumsie will yell at me if I tell her I'll surrender the computer after I finish browsing through 1200+ posts :P

[Schokolade!]

I think you're right on the mark here. Think also of the rest of the dream that Bran had (when the 3EC told Bran about flying). That whole dream chapter is one of the most significant in the series IMO (the Bran POV begins on p.160 in paperback version). Bran looks east, south, and across the Dothraki Sea, and what he sees moves increasingly beyond 'current events' until he finally looks north, beyond the wall. "North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep, into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks. 'Now you know,' the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. 'Now you know why you must live.' ". When Bran didn't understand and asked why, the crow had replied, 'Because winter is coming.' When Bran then looked at the crow, he saw it had 3 eyes, "and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge." Etc, etc. and it was just after this dream that Bran woke up and immediately knew his direwolf's name was Summer.

Kudos, great post!

Yeah, Bran will be there right up to the end.

Well thank you :)

Though I think Bran will out live them I'm not 100% certain he'll be alive in the last chapter of the last book, since GRRM loves to kill off Starks lol! And I can really see Bran dying after he accomplishes his destiny, whatever it may be (bringing back summer perhaps?)

Oh yeah I didn't remember all the details of that chapter thanks for bringing it up! Now that you pointed it out there is no way that it's a coincidence! It's obviously foreshadowing, all the Starks siblings gave "cool" names to their direwolves without thinking to much about it but Bran...

What are your taught about Melissandre's vision? She believes The 3RC to be working for the Other and Bran's to be his champion... I wonder what you think about it?

It's funny how most show fans believe that the north story lines are pointless and only the thrones matter when in fact the books tell us the throne is irrelevant in the bigger picture!

[Blazfemur]

Well thank you :)

Though I think Bran will out live them I'm not 100% certain he'll be alive in the last chapter of the last book, since GRRM loves to kill off Starks lol! And I can really see Bran dying after he accomplishes his destiny, whatever it may be (bringing back summer perhaps?)

Oh yeah I didn't remember all the details of that chapter thanks for bringing it up! Now that you pointed it out there is no way that it's a coincidence! It's obviously foreshadowing, all the Starks siblings gave "cool" names to their direwolves without thinking to much about it but Bran...

What are your taught about Melissandre's vision? She believes The 3RC to be working for the Other and Bran's to be his champion... I wonder what you think about it?

It's funny how most show fans believe that the north story lines are pointless and only the thrones matter when in fact the books tell us the throne is irrelevant in the bigger picture!

When Bran becomes BranRaven (with, or against his will), his body will be intact, even if true Bran is suppressed internally. I'm a firm believer Bloodraven takes his body, and gets carried out of that cave (Hodor unaware, all he sees is this Bloodraven's body die, and then Bran wanting to leave.

[Envie]

Precisely. I don't think people have entirely grasped the repurcussions coming just yet. We knew that we would be delving into unpublished material for awhile now, and for the past seasons we've known that D&D have had to consolidate/alter/erase certain plot lines for the sake of the on-screen interpretation, as well as added dramatic effect, but I don't think anyone was expecting so much to hit us so fast. I myself was expecting maybe two or three borderline spoilers from this season, and lot more next season, but we've, IMO, already been hit with major things that could potentially alter our perspective, like the Nights King (I have a problem even saying that given we don't know the textual context yet).

As far as I'm concerned, this entire forum will be a complete mess/utter chaos from here on out in certain regards. Literally everything will have to first read "well assuming what happened in so and so episode to so and so character is book!canon as well, then we can assume from this alteration in the storyline that A could be B and X could lead to Y". For strictly book readers this won't be a problem, but for those of us who watch the show too, like you said we cannot unsee it. Once that tidbit from the show gets stuck in our minds, its gonna be a complete battle of wills to try and separate canons from added drama/effect and strict book theories.

Personally, I like D&D and the show very much, and have felt that, for the most part, they have done a good job. There are others out there who could have done far worse, and at least we will always have the books if we want the first and essentail story. The fact that they add certain arcs and create additional drama to spice things up or move things along isn't necessarily what bothers me, it is necessary for some things that can't be adapted to the screen, limited budget, etc., what bothers me is not being able to categorize in my mind what is relevant to the books in the future and what is strictly the show!verse. My head just hurts trying to file away everything in my mind palace :bang:

Well said!

I also like the way D&D have done the show. It wouldn't be wildly popular after 4 seasons if they weren't doing a good job with the material and chosen actors. People on this forum are a little overly critical of both IMO.

But that still doesn't account for this strange black hole we're starting down. I'm already seeing it happen. Previously, when someone would make up a 'theory' about a certain character or story line - they would quote and reference bits from the book to support that theory and other readers would then respond back with argument for or against the theory based on other relevant bits from the books.

But NOW... now we have the show. Book purists would argue it's irrelevant and totally separate from the books. But there's a collective of us sitting somewhere in the middle who think there's some validity to some of the hints being dropped in the show which may or may not be clues and actual facts in the story to come and it's leaving us feeling very uncertain of what we can really debate without just going off on tangents and 'crackpot' theories as someone else can simply shoot us down because "didn't happen" or "Did happen" doesn't exist going forward. We just do not know!

We're adding a layer to the confusion. Show writers adding stuff that wasn't there in the book, and may not be there in the future of the book. How does one make valid points and theories now?? Now everyone's going to just refute it and say it hasn't happened yet and we can't rely on the show to be canon knowledge.

The long long loooong thread (which got cut into two equally long ones) Lord Blazefemur is referring to is a valid point ... it went on and on and there was no real conclusion, no real theory that worked for anything about the Others because at the end of it all we only had one scene, with only a small bit of book knowledge previously given and nothing else to go on moving forward. The thread went off on tangents and arguments that had no real point. I fear most of the forum debates from here going forward will end up like that.

[Arkash]

Though I think Bran will out live them I'm not 100% certain he'll be alive in the last chapter of the last book, since GRRM loves to kill off Starks lol! And I can really see Bran dying after he accomplishes his destiny, whatever it may be (bringing back summer perhaps?)

Imagine what a beautiful ending it would be with Bran's body dying and him escaping with Summer, as a friend in the back of his mind.

And last lines : Summer is coming.

Anyway, imo the fire of Jojen's hand means a lot of things ; his fever, the events that happend that night, the war against the Walkers, the Warrior of Light, Dragons or death by fire. Unless I am proved completely wrong and it has a precise meaning in the episodes to come.

[CandleWisps]

Well said!

I also like the way D&D have done the show. It wouldn't be wildly popular after 4 seasons if they weren't doing a good job with the material and chosen actors. People on this forum are a little overly critical of both IMO.

But that still doesn't account for this strange black hole we're starting down. I'm already seeing it happen. Previously, when someone would make up a 'theory' about a certain character or story line - they would quote and reference bits from the book to support that theory and other readers would then respond back with argument for or against the theory based on other relevant bits from the books.

But NOW... now we have the show. Book purists would argue it's irrelevant and totally separate from the books. But there's a collective of us sitting somewhere in the middle who think there's some validity to some of the hints being dropped in the show which may or may not be clues and actual facts in the story to come and it's leaving us feeling very uncertain of what we can really debate without just going off on tangents and 'crackpot' theories as someone else can simply shoot us down because "didn't happen" or "Did happen" doesn't exist going forward. We just do not know!

We're adding a layer to the confusion. Show writers adding stuff that wasn't there in the book, and may not be there in the future of the book. How does one make valid points and theories now?? Now everyone's going to just refute it and say it hasn't happened yet and we can't rely on the show to be canon knowledge.

The long long loooong thread (which got cut into two equally long ones) Lord Blazefemur is referring to is a valid point ... it went on and on and there was no real conclusion, no real theory that worked for anything about the Others because at the end of it all we only had one scene, with only a small bit of book knowledge previously given and nothing else to go on moving forward. The thread went off on tangents and arguments that had no real point. I fear most of the forum debates from here going forward will end up like that.

Thanks, that was another reason I was scared of plunging in there :laugh: With such an abundance of posts and repetition I was fairly certain it was just a cry in the dark, because no matter what a conclusion can't really be reached until all the seasons air and the last two books grace our hearts. At this point, all I see happening is everyone chasing shadows. These theories and abundance of uncertainties just seem to dance and swirl around us, tempting us into wanting to grab hold of one and make sense of this barrage of information, but shadows will, inevitably, slip through our fingers and laugh at us :crying:

Please GRRM. I cry.

And Arkash, I can feel you here as well. The fire doesn't have to be representative of one single event/moment. We all know that fire should command a huge presence in the days and years to come, instrumental in the fight against the Great Other and beyond. It is after all A Song of Ice and Fire.

My only hope is that when Jojen finally goes, he goes somewhat peacefuuly. Thats a lot to ask of George, but I shall try and remain hopelessly optimistic that he doesn't die in agony :bawl:

[Schokolade!]

When Bran becomes BranRaven (with, or against his will), his body will be intact, even if true Bran is suppressed internally. I'm a firm believer Bloodraven takes his body, and gets carried out of that cave (Hodor unaware, all he sees is this Bloodraven's body die, and then Bran wanting to leave.

Actually that's a valid point! I don't know if you what GRRM's interviews or not but I remember that a fan asked him once if Bran's paralysis is mental rather then physical and if he'll ever walk again.

GRRM answer was very surprising because he did confirm that his paralysis was physical yet he refused to tell us if he'll walk again or not.

I taught it was strange since BloodRaven does tell Bran he'll never walk again...

How funny will it be if BloodRaven only purpose was to take over Bran's body!

Jon: Bran! It's been so long! You can walk it's a miracle!

BranRaven: yes, yes, I heals while I was north... Who are you?

Jon: it's me Jon, you're brother! You probably don't recognize me because it's been so long since we last saw each other.

BranRaven: Yes... That's probably it! Tell me Jon, now that Robb is dead I AM king of the north right?

Jon: Totally!

BranRaven: Excellent!!

[Beorn Snow]

He will be burned by Melisandre on the way south home.

It is known.

[CandleWisps]

Actually that's a valid point! I don't know if you what GRRM's interviews or not but I remember that a fan asked him once if Bran's paralysis is mental rather then physical and if he'll ever walk again.

GRRM answer was very surprising because he did confirm that his paralysis was physical yet he refused to tell us if he'll walk again or not.

I taught it was strange since BloodRaven does tell Bran he'll never walk again...

How funny will it be if BloodRaven only purpose was to take over Bran's body!

Jon: Bran! It's been so long! You can walk it's a miracle!

BranRaven: yes, yes, I heals while I was north... Who are you?

Jon: it's me Jon, you're brother! You probably don't recognize me because it's been so long since we last saw each other.

BranRaven: Yes... That's probably it! Tell me Jon, now that Robb is dead I AM king of the north right?

Jon: Totally!

BranRaven: Excellent!!

Oh dear god, now all I can see is BranRaven sitting alone on a throne, rubbing his hands together satisfactorily as your typical villain laugh echoes off the walls as the screen pans out. End Series.

[Schokolade!]

Imagine what a beautiful ending it would be with Bran's body dying and him escaping with Summer, as a friend in the back of his mind.

And last lines : Summer is coming.

Anyway, imo the fire of Jojen's hand means a lot of things ; his fever, the events that happend that night, the war against the Walkers, the Warrior of Light, Dragons or death by fire. Unless I am proved completely wrong and it has a precise meaning in the episodes to come.

Oh! I've never taught of that! I agree it could be very poetic

As for Jojen's vision it could mean so many things but I'm starting to think it's about Rhor'll after all Melissandre does burn a lot of people in his name and he seems to be represented by fire.

Now with that said I don't believe Jojen will die in flames but that there will be a confrontation with Rhor'll/the Others

[Blazfemur]

Oh dear god, now all I can see is BranRaven sitting alone on a throne, rubbing his hands together satisfactorily as your typical villain laugh echoes off the walls as the screen pans out. End Series.

Once the iron throne is destroyed, and the realm is made into 7 kingdoms again, BranRaven will either rule as King In The North through Winterfell, or rule in Summerhall based on the obvious, if my theories prove true.

[Blazfemur]

Actually that's a valid point! I don't know if you what GRRM's interviews or not but I remember that a fan asked him once if Bran's paralysis is mental rather then physical and if he'll ever walk again.

GRRM answer was very surprising because he did confirm that his paralysis was physical yet he refused to tell us if he'll walk again or not.

I taught it was strange since BloodRaven does tell Bran he'll never walk again...

How funny will it be if BloodRaven only purpose was to take over Bran's body!

Jon: Bran! It's been so long! You can walk it's a miracle!

BranRaven: yes, yes, I heals while I was north... Who are you?

Jon: it's me Jon, you're brother! You probably don't recognize me because it's been so long since we last saw each other.

BranRaven: Yes... That's probably it! Tell me Jon, now that Robb is dead I AM king of the north right?

Jon: Totally!

BranRaven: Excellent!!

Walk with me, in this path of blasphemy. A lot of people disagree and turn the other way. Our way, is much more interesting, is it not?

[CandleWisps]

Once the iron throne is destroyed, and the realm is made into 7 kingdoms again, BranRaven will either rule as King In The North through Winterfell, or rule in Summerhall based on the obvious, if my theories prove true.

He'll probably spend the rest of his days murmuring "amatuers" under his breath. Btw where have you posted this theory? My interest has been piqued

[evita mgfs]

Jojen’s burning hand refers to how the Leaf will subdue the wights gathered at the Cave of Skulls so that the companions can enter safely. It is when the wights are alit that their “journey” will end.

Fire and light often symbolize “enlightenment” or “knowledge”, and Jojen with his greendreams is certainly enlightened.

I never believed in Jojen paste because it would violate the laws of hospitality.

If the television series aligns with novel elements, then obviously Bran can enter the weirwood without the benefit of ww paste. He has done so on the show.