[Book Spoilers] Jojen's Burning Hand

[binga]

The bones in Bloodraven's cave, were any of them burned?

[salmonsnake]

The bones in Bloodraven's cave, were any of them burned?

Weren't they animal bones? Birds and such. And I recall Coldhands saying the cave is 'warded' so I assume it's the same kind of thing that wards the Wall

[MrsManderly]

Whatever it means, it seems to make the Jojenpaste theory that much less likely -- ho hum, another of my pet theories bites the dust!

[jabulaniman]

Am I the only one who found this line particularly odd? "Meera and I, you and Hodor" seems to suggest the four of them are there to guide Bran but that would include Bran himself, which doesn't make much sense in context with all the "you". It could be bad writing or I could be interpreting it entirely wrong but it sounded strange.

He said "Meera and I, EVEN Hodor" not "you and".

[Monk Meth-]

i think he was seeing the mutineers burning.

[Bastard of the Dreadfort]

Regardless of the burning hand, what I've been wondering is why does Jojen always look so sickly and pale? Is he already actually dying of some illness? Did they suggest something in the show that I've already missed?

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Maybe book!Jojen will be turned into paste, but screenwriters said "Hey! we cannot make cute, shamanic, native children of the forest Redd-eaters! Let's whitewash them!".

So TV!Jojen will be turned into wight and burned. Just so.

[Chebyshov]

Regardless of the burning hand, what I've been wondering is why does Jojen always look so sickly and pale? Is he already actually dying of some illness? Did they suggest something in the show that I've already missed?

There was nothing really suggested, but we know he's prone to fits so I guess you can just assume he's not exactly made from hearty stock. He has a rough go of it North of the Wall in the books too; I think they're just starting to show his deterioration.

[Hard Hugh]

I'm transcribing the dialogue in the Jojen/Bran/Meera scene leading up to the burning hand, because it seems like it might be significant and yet another instance of the show spoiling the books.

Jojen: Meera and I, even Hodor...we're only here to guide you. He's waiting for you. You have to find it. YOU have to make it.

Bran: We will.

Jojen (to Bran): This...this isn't the end. Not for you. Not yet.

Meera: How...will we know the end?

Jojen (looking at his burning hand): You'll know.

"The end" in the context of the conversation seems to mean "death," and Meera is asking Jojen how they'll know "the end," which seems in context to mean when they'll die. That's when Jojen looks at his burning hand and says "You'll know."

Does this imply that Jojen dies by burning and thus put the Jojenpaste theory to bed permanently? Does it imply that Meera and/or Bran will die by burning, since Jojen sees the burning hand in reference to Meera's question "How will we [including Bran and herself] know the end?"? Does it imply something else?

ETA for correction.

Well they may have cooked the paste :) Rendered him into a nice reduction Jojensauce. Don't you watch Hannibal too? :)

[Tixu Oty]

I think the burning hand is intended to be taken literally - Jojen has seen his own death and it's by fire.

[snip]

I watch Jojen's hand burning and don't have a damn clue if that's something they just made up because it looks cool or if they're seriously spoiling events to come in the books.

I haven't watched the last two episodes with my unsullied sis yet, and as I was watching on my own I was imagining in my head all the questions she might ask me and I realized for most of them my answer would have to be: you know, at this point, we're pretty much on the same level and I don't know any better than you, because the show's getting close to catching up to the books, and it's adding lots of stuff in there that could be either foreshadowing or made-up stuff. So I'm like her, I don't have a clue, and I love it!

Do I recall the books incorrectly, but wasn't Jojen's death supposed to be back at The Neck?

Hmm yes there was a vague quote from Jojen to Meera that could be interpreted in a number a ways. I don't remember exactly what he told her, but I basically took it to mean that 1/He wasn't going to die right away 2/Possibly not until it's time to start going back home 3/and that he'd never make it back home anyway.

What I understood from Jojen speech is that Bran will out live them all... With him constantly repeating that it isn't the end of Bran.

His hand burning was very ambiguous, it could mean many things.

This whole conversation was so incredibly vague and confusing, we don't know who is talking about what, totally surreal. Yes it's meant to be ambiguous. I think show only people are supposed to wonder what the hell that's all about, and then when Karl is killed and the keep is burned they can think back on it and interpret it as Jojen predicting the bad guys' end. First layer. Then I guess somewhere down the line, something happens to Jojen or to Team Bran and we're meant to think back on it again and see the double meaning. Second layer. I love it.

So for that second layer, as a book reader, the first thing that came to my mind was: this is how Jojen dies. I thought this because the fact that Jojen knows how and when he will die was incredibly tense and sad, it's a huge part of what makes the character compelling, and all of team Bran's journey too. You guys have incredible theory, but I guess I'll stick to that. It's the most obvious interpretation I think, especially since the show has otherwise done a great job at letting us know that Jojen's time may be almost up. See below.

Finally!!! Someone else thinks Jojen's paste is bullshit!! I don't know why most fans I've ever talked to before always acted like this THEORY is book canon!

I don't think Jojenpaste is true in the books, and it's starting to look like it's even less likely to be true in the show. But, I think the theory still makes a lot of sense because: 1/ we know for a fact Jojen is going to die before all is said and done, and knowing that, we stress out wondering when is the day Jojen dies. 2/ That last Bran chapter was incredibly weird and dark, even more so than his previous chapter in the caves. Add to that the fact that the Reed siblings were nowhere to be seen which is definitely very weird. I think something very wrong might be going on, but it's not the Jojenpaste. It's just a feeling though. Nothing to prove or disprove anything.

It's funny how most show fans believe that the north story lines are pointless and only the thrones matter when in fact the books tell us the throne is irrelevant in the bigger picture!

Yes! I love that! And that's why the last episode REALLY surprised me a lot. I mean, the previous episode already upped the magic quite a bit with the White Walkers and baby scene. But now, they are breaking their own laws. The show had gotten us used to the fact that is was pretty low on magic compared to the books. Apart from Bran, none of the Stark siblings warg or have crazy dreams. There are no flashback scenes at all, even when it doesn't involve magic. It's a pretty straightforward tale with no visual tricks to give it a fantasy look. But in that scene, we had the tree appearing out of nowhere in the background, while all characters were awake. That was a first! And then there's the burning hand. Previous posters have said that in future scenes they wonder what else Jojen might be seeing that we don't know of, and that's telling, because obviously, he's been seeing things all the time, but now D&D are choosing to show us. Wow! I'm thrilled because it looks like the show is definitely taking a new direction.

"You're not here" was IMO the most interesting part.

Added to the "the raven is you" could mean a lot about bran being time lord bran.

Yes! I was wondering what the hell does that mean. And I still have no idea but I have faith in D&D and I think, come on, this gotta be a clue, right?

In my view, Jojen is a sacrificial character who understands precisely the role he must play, and the last Bran chapter is so sinister that it would be absurd to deny the possibility of awful things going on in the background.

I agree. That scene and the weird ominous dialogue talking about ends and whatnot was definitely foreboding and getting us ready for things to go wrong.

Regardless of the burning hand, what I've been wondering is why does Jojen always look so sickly and pale? Is he already actually dying of some illness? Did they suggest something in the show that I've already missed?

You know, iirc I don't even think Jojen has fits of epilepsy in the book, right? I took the epilepsy and the feverish look as a visual hint that Jojen's death is near. It works just so much better to have him always looking sickly right from the start than to simply have him talk about him knowing the manner of his death. I love when movies or shows give you subtle visual hints to make you process things without even being aware of it.

[ChildoftheTropicalForest]

Agreeing with Acosta here. My interpretation is that he will die after his mission to the North is completed and body burned to prevent it from becoming wighted.

[Recentiy03]

This. This. Jojen isn't referring to himself; he's referring to Bran's destiny.

"This...this isn't the end [of the journey]. Not for you [bran]. Not yet."

"How...will we know the end [of Bran's journey]?"

"You'll know." [fire]

Bran is going to play a big role in the War for the Dawn, which will involve a lot of fire.

Sounds like the most reasonable explanation so far, I tend to agree.

[binga]

It's a very tricky discussion between the three of them. Jojen seems to be hinting at his own death but Bran's survival. Meera asks about the end but it is not clear that she is asking about Bran's end or the end in general. Jojen responds to her but he is seeing his own hand on fire, there is no direct connection to Bran and Meera.The words on paper don't match up with how it goes down on screen. Either this is brilliant writing and planning on the part of the creators or they were very sloppy with the scene.

[Bear Claw]

If Jojen dies in the cave his body doesn't need to be burned because the cave is warded.

[AZAXD]

I haven't watched the last two episodes with my unsullied sis yet, and as I was watching on my own I was imagining in my head all the questions she might ask me and I realized for most of them my answer would have to be: you know, at this point, we're pretty much on the same level and I don't know any better than you, because the show's getting close to catching up to the books, and it's adding lots of stuff in there that could be either foreshadowing or made-up stuff. So I'm like her, I don't have a clue, and I love it!

I watch the show with my unsullied dad and the same thing occurred to me. I must agree, it's really exciting! It's actually helping me come to terms with the show potentially surpassing the books (although I still hope it doesn't).

[Tixu Oty]

It's a very tricky discussion between the three of them. Jojen seems to be hinting at his own death but Bran's survival. Meera asks about the end but it is not clear that she is asking about Bran's end or the end in general. Jojen responds to her but he is seeing his own hand on fire, there is no direct connection to Bran and Meera.The words on paper don't match up with how it goes down on screen. Either this is brilliant writing and planning on the part of the creators or they were very sloppy with the scene.

I'm going to go with brilliant. Meera and Bran are apparently just confused as us in this scene.

I watch the show with my unsullied dad and the same thing occurred to me. I must agree, it's really exciting! It's actually helping me come to terms with the show potentially surpassing the books (although I still hope it doesn't).

I would love to read to books first, but if that doesn't happen, at least now there are more people that I can theorize with. I mean before, my sis would make predictions or observations and I'd just have to keep my mouth shut. Now we can make predictions together.

[AZAXD]

I would love to read to books first, but if that doesn't happen, at least now there are more people that I can theorize with. I mean before, my sis would make predictions or observations and I'd just have to keep my mouth shut. Now we can make predictions together.

Yeah exactly! Nice job keeping your mouth shut too :)

[Envie]

Regardless of the burning hand, what I've been wondering is why does Jojen always look so sickly and pale? Is he already actually dying of some illness? Did they suggest something in the show that I've already missed?

Yes, Jojen was always a bit sickly from the start and he got sicker as the journey north progressed so they are potraying it correctly in the show with his character.

As for all the wild speculation about Jojen dying once they reach the caves ... I think a lot of people are forgetting some parts of Jojen's own self- prophecy as was outlined in the book in favor of show-theories. Here it is from the wiki - I'm sure it could be directly quoted from ADWD as well:

A Dance with Dragons

Jojen, Bran, Meera, Hodor, and Coldhands travel north of the Wall in search of the three-eyed crow.^[13] They reach the cave of the three-eyed crow, but are ambushed by wights just outside the cave’s entrance. Because Jojen is too weak to continue, Meera carries him on her back. Inside the cave, the group meet the remaining children of the forest and the three-eyed crow.^[14]

Jojen falls into a resigned depression, wanting to go home to Greywater Watch. Meera implies while speaking with Bran that Jojen has had a greendream of his fate when he goes to Greywater Watch, and that the outcome is not good.^[15]

[Farwynds Oceanseer]

Jojen will set himself on fire to hatch BR's dragon egg. It is known.

[Gertrude]

I haven't read this whole thread meticulously, but I haven't seen any theories that he's referring to dragonfire. That's where my head went. I thought Meera was asking how they will know it's the end, not a specific death for any of them. The end of the crisis in the North should (I hope) involve Dragonfire.