(Book spoilers) So the Lannister gold has dried up?

[Moët]

Why do people talk as if the books are leagues better than the show? The books have PLENTY of flaws.

POV's that get waaay too many chapters (Im looking at you Brienne...and Asha....and Danaerys....and Tyrion and oh you get the point). Storylines that go on too long (when the hell is Dany going to Westeros? When is Robin gonna frickin die?). Prose is good but used overly much.

For gods sake, some people here make me ashamed to be a fan of the books. Can't you appreciate both as separate entities?

Thank you. This.

[lostinwesteros]

Tywin said last mine ran dry (can't start any new mines?) , but he didn't say the treasury of Lannisters was bankrupt. Seems like it was about to red line, and he wanted the House Tyrell to ease the burden.Funny to think The Iron Bank of Braavos is making the houses of Westeros 'Too Big to Fail'!Even more reason for Tywin to get rid of Joffrey , if 'ol Joff spoiled things with the Tyrell's then chapter 11!I love it!Money talks, losers walk.

It would be such a nice touch, though, if the Lannisters were really bankrupt and, when it's all said and done, cannot pay their debts, after all. ; }

[JDNight]

Not a fan of this.

I understand the need to emphasize the importance of the Iron Bank, but this seems like a short sighted way to do so. How is this not well known throughout Westoros? Does Tywin have all the goldsmiths, minters, miners, and merchants dealing in supplying said professions on some type of hush-money/welfare program? How was he supplying Robert for years with tourney purses without gold? Was Littlefinger duplicitous in Tywin's fraud?

This screams of something that will never be mentioned again however.

I agree 100%. How could this remain a secret?!? This seems odd to me. However, if it was somehow kept a secret from most people, much of what LF has done up to now can be explained very well.

1) He sees that the Lannisters and the Crown are going to go broke.

2) He sees winter coming.

3) He realizes that Kingslanding is NOT the place to be.

4) He decides the Aerie looks like a really good place to hole up for the winter.

5) Set about making this happen... Killing lord Arryn.

6) Creates the chaos needed to make certain that no other lord can be a threat to him.

7) Sits real pretty in the Aerie through the winter.

Although I think if he had his choice, he would be there with Cat.

Just a wild hypothesis. Very wild.

Oh, and I think LF helped kill Joff to get revenge for Joff killing Cat. Just my opinion.

[Bowen]

Doesn't she mess Tycho about and basically tell the iron bank they not getting paid in Clash?

We've seen the white washing with Tyrion to the point where he's become quite boring,I reckon they could present a more unstable Cersie for what it's worth.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I just thought of something about this. I was under the impression that the Iron Bank wanted to get its due from the coffers of Casterly Rock (and Highgarden, the Twins, and other Houses that supported Tommen, I guess, but mostly Casterly Rock), but now that the Lannisters are broke how will the IB get back its gold? Like, why fund someone to beat an enemy who's broke?

[Khal Porno]

Can we write white wash and character assassination some more in this thread please? And agency. That's a new one I like. Agency.

The white washing of character A is total character assassination and leaves them with zero agency.

I like that. Feel free to copy and paste it into every thread it will save you more time to cry bitter tears about GOT unbelievebly not being just the text from the novels slowly scrolling Star Wars style up the TV screen.

High five.

[The Drunkard]

I just thought of something about this. I was under the impression that the Iron Bank wanted to get its due from the coffers of Casterly Rock (and Highgarden, the Twins, and other Houses that supported Tommen, I guess, but mostly Casterly Rock), but now that the Lannisters are broke how will the IB get back its gold? Like, why fund someone to beat an enemy who's broke?

Well, they wouldn't be completely broke. They may not find enough to take back what they're owed, but for an apparently global, superpower-like bank, what they're owed isn't the point. Sending the message that you can't fuck with them, is.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Well, they wouldn't be completely broke. They may not find enough to take back what they're owed, but for an apparently global, superpower-like bank, what they're owed isn't the point. Sending the message that you can't fuck with them, is.

True that, true that. And I guess it's better to get some of your money back than nothing at all. Now I have this mental image of the Iron Bank just salivating thinking about the Lannister gold mines just to find them empty...and really, why not? Everyone else in the series has it bad, why should things go easy for some bankers, of all people? :p

[Belisarius09]

This isn't the case in the books. We know the mines are still pumping out gold like its nobodies business because Robb secures a few mines when he's raiding the Westerlands and they comment on it. The only mines that have failed are those belonging to the Crag.

So, for the show, even if the mines under casterly rock(all the mines in all of westeros, or just the casterly rock mines??) have failed, they still have the immense profits from all the trade going through Lannisport.

So

1. Dumb change, that didn;t need to happen, we will see Lannister power erode in other ways

2. Doesn't even do a good job of showing Lannister's running out of money, because they still have a huge secondary source of revenues.

[Good Guy Garlan]

snip

Maybe they'll have Euron attack both the Reach and Lannisport, to fuck the Lannisters even more and hype Euron as a huge threat... :dunno:

[WinterisAlwaysComing]

Spoiler! Early confirmation that Tywin Lannister does not in fact s**t gold!!

[DrownedSnow]

I just thought of something about this. I was under the impression that the Iron Bank wanted to get its due from the coffers of Casterly Rock (and Highgarden, the Twins, and other Houses that supported Tommen, I guess, but mostly Casterly Rock), but now that the Lannisters are broke how will the IB get back its gold? Like, why fund someone to beat an enemy who's broke?

The Crown owes those monies, so the Baratheons. I do think this move is partly to help Cersei be more likable for some reason, like the BS they've done to Shae. Mostly though, I think they just wanted to answer a question viewers would have before they could ask it. Why wouldn't the Lannisters pay off all of the debt the crown has if they have an endless supply of gold? Never mind the fact that Robert somehow borrowed millions of gold dragons even though he couldn't possibly spend that much and that number just plain may not be realistic to even exist. The Lannister debt is one thing because Joff and Tommen are essentially Lannisters so it would never be an issue and isn't urgently needed to be forgiven. Tywin/Cersei could manage to pay off Bravos or at least start to make significant payments if needed.

Cersei was being all crazy and I guess they painted it as her not knowing how much trouble the Iron Bank could cause but it was still hard to believe she didn't prefer to pay that problem off instead of making a new enemy when she couldn't afford it. The one thing she seems to actually care for are her children and I would think she could give all the gold in Casterly Rock to help them. Some limit to their wealth does make sense. Cersei is terrible with problems she can't sleep with or buy off.

[Mr Hodor]

Was re-reading Dance with the dragons, and Kevan Lannister wanted to pay off the Iron bank debt with Lannister Gold. Kevan is not someone who is delusional about the current state of affairs so i am not sure if this is where the books are too.

[Pliskin]

But in any case, I think it's fairly obvious that the change is there to mitigate Cersei still further. She's not going to tell the Iron Bank she won't pay up because she's recklessly arrogant on the topic... but because she'll have no choice. Boo-hoo. :(

And that actually leads to a big inconsistency problem in the story.

The logic of the Iron Bank (if a king won't pay, we'll support another one) wouldn't work in the show.

In the novels, Cersei doesn't want to pay because of her stupidity, and therefore the Iron Bank turns to Stannis, who can pay (if he becomes king) because the crown can afford to pay; he justs needs to erase the debt to the Lannisters for example or just steal from them, they lost the war after all (in the scenario in which Stannis wins).

But here, in the show, Stannis has nowhere to find money to pay the Iron Bank. So what's the point in supporting him ?

I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if this was already pointed out.

ETA: Oh okay, said in this same page actually, sorry:

I just thought of something about this. I was under the impression that the Iron Bank wanted to get its due from the coffers of Casterly Rock (and Highgarden, the Twins, and other Houses that supported Tommen, I guess, but mostly Casterly Rock), but now that the Lannisters are broke how will the IB get back its gold? Like, why fund someone to beat an enemy who's broke?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Theory: Tywin's lying.

He doesn't trust Cersei not to get extravagant buying off people against Tyrion, and wants the Tyrells to weaken themselves financially by forking out a disproportionate share of the festivities and rebuild.

If the Westerlands is running dry of gold, the two obvious points are the already mentioned "why didn't anyone know about it (including Tyrion, who is reasonably perceptive)", and "why didn't they do some more prospecting?" Also, it's been three years since the last mine ran dry, the decline has been going on for some time. In which case, Tywin is an idiot for lending money he knew he didn't have.

[salmonsnake]

In which case, Tywin is an idiot for lending money he knew he didn't have.

It was started by Little Finger when he was Master of Coin. The show established this long ago, back when Tyrion took over as Master of Coin and studied the records he fetched from LF's brothel. The show hasn't established who took over as Master of Coin after Tyrion (I don't think Gyles Rosby has even been mentioned on the show), but even if Tywin personally took care of the additional tasks, I don't think it's likely that he was borrowing more money. (But he wasn't paying back either)

Edit: actually just rewatched and that particular episode says it is from Tywin the crown has borrowed millions.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

In broad brush strokes, it is an obvious ploy to raise the importance of the IBB. It stops the 'Why don't the Lannisters just pay off all the debt?' questions watchers may ask.

But....

Its a very inelegant way of going about it. There is no way the hundreds or even thousands of workers in the mining industry have kept quiet about this.

I feel a much better way would have been to say, "the war and he raids by Robb Stark halted our gold production and now the mines are flooded. It will be 3 years before we can even start production again." This makes sense. If you don't have pumps, you don't have a mine... and the extreme rain of the autumn in Book Canon justifies the time frame. The lack of production justifies the need of the Tyrell alliance and sets up the problems with the IBB.

[Pliskin]

I feel a much better way would have been to say, "the war and he raids by Robb Stark halted our gold production and now the mines are flooded. It will be 3 years before we can even start production again." This makes sense. If you don't have pumps, you don't have a mine... and the extreme rain of the autumn in Book Canon justifies the time frame. The lack of production justifies the need of the Tyrell alliance and sets up the problems with the IBB.

But it doesn't justify the problem with the Iron Bank, since they'd be happy for wait to a few more years, with the interests growing.

[acosta]

Every mine runs dry eventually. It can't be the basis of a thousand year dynasty plan anyway. Every other major house does fine without sitting on top of a gold mine. They are other ways of generating wealth in the world.

That said, I'm pretty sure their mines are not dry in the books, but I can hardly see why it even matters. They're getting crushed anyway. Tywin and Kevan are dead. Robb's army likely killed many of their cadets. Jaime is heading off to a hang man, Cersei is on trial, and Tyrion has basically resolved to try and destroy what is left and take it for himself.

The show is just injecting this to try and give a more convincing reason than hardheadedness that Tywin never helps the throne pay its other debts once the entire royal line becomes just his own family.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

But it doesn't justify the problem with the Iron Bank, since they'd be happy to wait to a few more years, with the interests growing.

It does when the Iron Bank hasn't been paid for 4 years. It justifies having to deal with the IBB and having to renegotiate the loan. The IBB plays hardball then they are up the creek without a paddle.