(Book spoilers) So the Lannister gold has dried up?

[Hound's She-wolf]

Im gonna say something and it's gonna lead to 50% of this forum wanting my head on a spike.

I like show Tyrion more than his book version.

There I said it. I prefer the kinder 'Saint' Tyrion to the self-pitying woman-beater who only helps others out when it's of no threat to him.

TV!Tyrion is much more likable than Book!Tyrion, he has had all those nasty bits of moral ambiguity washed away, he is genuinely concerned for his child bride and tries to save his true love Shae, is honoring his sham of a marriage, trying to cure cancer and still retains his rapier wit all while trying to save the realm and please his father.

I think they just should have renamed him, since he is a completely different character than in the book. Instead of Tyrion, he shall be called Tyrone, Patron Saint of cripples, bastards and broken things.

[boojam]

It's a fairly silly turn, in the sense that no, it's not thought out, much as their turn with Xaro's "wealthiest man in Qarth is in fact bankrupt" thing -- both raise the same questions. You'd think someone whose father was a banking executive might have at least a little more respect for the fundamentals of economics... or maybe not, I guess, after the bailouts? :dunno:

But in any case, I think it's fairly obvious that the change is there to mitigate Cersei still further. She's not going to tell the Iron Bank she won't pay up because she's recklessly arrogant on the topic... but because she'll have no choice. Boo-hoo. :(

(Yeah, not a fan of the whitewash. She's such a bland character.)

Tywin said last mine ran dry (can't start any new mines?) , but he didn't say the treasury of Lannisters was bankrupt. Seems like it was about to red line, and he wanted the House Tyrell to ease the burden.

Funny to think The Iron Bank of Braavos is making the houses of Westeros 'Too Big to Fail'!

Even more reason for Tywin to get rid of Joffrey , if 'ol Joff spoiled things with the Tyrell's then chapter 11!

I love it!

Money talks, losers walk.

[fangirl000]

Yes, the Lanister power without foundations is a nice turn. I also like the idea that they are emphasising the danger in not paying the Iron Bank. I always thought that it needed to be further mentioned in the Books.

Maybe they're trying make Cersei's eventual decision to NOT respect the Iron Bank in the future look like less of a power trip and more of a necessity? There's a vast difference between "Screw the bank, I'm in charge!," and "Well, it's not like I have the money to pay them anyway..." For expediency, I can see the writers cutting the whole subplot about her rebuilding the navy and having it from under her.

Edit to add:

This is also a good point.

Makes Cersei's Fuck You to the IB much less a matter of "A Queen can do as she wills" and more a matter of "Woe is the women left to deal with the debts of her inept husband and lying father."

Or, you know, what this guy said already

[Winterfell is Burning]

The Lannisters aren't broke..........yet. But they will be if they keep lending money to the crown. They still have their own resources for the moment but the belt-tightening is about to begin and someone else needs to start paying the crown's debts, at least till the Lannisters can find another source of money.

Yeah, Tywin never said they were broke.

I find it slightly ridiculous how everybody is acting that having no more working mines means the Lannisters will be completely powerless in no time. Given that most westerosi lords have no mines at all, I wonder how they even manage to raise the tiniest levy if mines are so important. Besides, it is not like the Westerlands are completely empty and barren outside of the mines. They seem pretty fertile to me all in all.

I would say the gold mines are just an added bonus, but income from lands alone should give the Lannisters equal income to say the Vale or the Riverlands. Without mining income they would definitely loose some weight to throw around, but no way that they would be powerless.

Yep; it's not that they aren't rich, it's just that the days when they were far richer than anyone else are gone.

Plus, Tywin never said anything about the silver mines.

[Ser Not Appearing]

But in any case, I think it's fairly obvious that the change is there to mitigate Cersei still further. She's not going to tell the Iron Bank she won't pay up because she's recklessly arrogant on the topic... but because she'll have no choice. Boo-hoo. :(

(Yeah, not a fan of the whitewash. She's such a bland character.)

It will make her eventual anti-Tyrell stance that much worse, though, right? Kinda balances out?

[Cas Stark]

It will make her eventual anti-Tyrell stance that much worse, though, right? Kinda balances out?

It would seem so.

I have a bad feeling we're going to see Cersei the Victim of the mean bankers, instead of Cersei the Arrogant whack job.

[Ser Lepus]

My take on this is quite different from what many people here are saying.

I think it may not be a change from the books, but rather a spoiler. We know the show this season is moving into territory not yet covered by the books. But if you think about it, a lot of things that have been happening in the books make a bit more sense if this is in fact true and the Lannisters are almost out of gold. Each mine would know their own remaining supply, but may not know the state of the rest of the mines. The Lord of Casterly Rock and its castelan would be the only ones who have an overview.

If the Lannisters are out of gold, it gives depth to the actions of both Cersei and Tyrion. If Cersei knows there is no Lannister gold it means she is perhaps not quite as much of an idiot as everyone assumed when she flatly refused to pay back the Iron Bank: she simply had no way to do so. It also means that Tyrion's gamble when he joined the Second Sons is loaded with sneakiness. He gave away all the gold of Casterly Rock to Brown Ben Plumm and his captains, knowing full well that there was no gold to give.

Problem is, we have read both Cersei's and Kevan's thoughts while thinking about money and debts, and none of them thinks that the main source of income of Casterly Rock has dried up.

Hippocras,

Kevan's epilogue in ADwD makes it fairly plain that Casterly Rock still has plenty of gold. The richness of the mines are a detail Tyrion brings up more than once, and he's resided at the Rock (and worked in and around it) longer than either of his siblings, and so you suppose he'd know.

It's an invention of the show.

What Ran said.

[Seneti]

Exactly, running a government isn't the same as running a personal account. You can run a government on a deficit, it just isn't sustainable, especially if the people decide to collect at once (which is exactly what will happen).

Even with a personal account it's not that bad. You can end up without a source of income (read: unemployed) and still have millions of dollars in savings. Does that make you poor or broke? No. It just means your source of income is gone and you have to start watching your expenses and your budget.

The thing is the show emphasized too much the Lannister gold, without mentioning that the Reach actually have more productive resources and are quite wealthy themselves. Lannisters would be like owning 1 trillion dollars, whereas the reach is like owning the 10 largest corporations of the world.

Actually, we did get that conversation between Olenna and Tyrion where Olenna explained just how much they contributed to the war efforts (money, soldiers, horses, provisions) and we know that they payed half of the wedding costs, so I think by now viewers know that Tyrells are very wealthy.

Removing Littlefingers role in the Iron Bank fiasco by deliberately taking out loans from them en mass was rather disappointing. Hes been purposefully fucking the realm. Hopefully the show addresses it later.

Except they didn't remove his role. It was clearly pointed out by Tyrion when he became Master of Coin that Littlefinger was drawing the money for RObert's expenses from two sources: Tywin (bad) and the Iron Bank (really fucking bad).

My take on this is quite different from what many people here are saying.

I think it may not be a change from the books, but rather a spoiler. We know the show this season is moving into territory not yet covered by the books. But if you think about it, a lot of things that have been happening in the books make a bit more sense if this is in fact true and the Lannisters are almost out of gold. Each mine would know their own remaining supply, but may not know the state of the rest of the mines. The Lord of Casterly Rock and its castelan would be the only ones who have an overview.

If the Lannisters are out of gold, it gives depth to the actions of both Cersei and Tyrion. If Cersei knows there is no Lannister gold it means she is perhaps not quite as much of an idiot as everyone assumed when she flatly refused to pay back the Iron Bank: she simply had no way to do so. It also means that Tyrion's gamble when he joined the Second Sons is loaded with sneakiness. He gave away all the gold of Casterly Rock to Brown Ben Plumm and his captains, knowing full well that there was no gold to give.

Agreed.

I was blown away with the Cersei cozy up to Margeary. She hates her from the begginning. Also, her dissing on Joff like that. Joff was her pride and Joy, could do no wrong. The worse thing book Cersei ever says about Joff was that he was "willfull". Whitewashing of Cersei is quite dissapointing as she was just as evil as Joff.

Why does everybody take whatever Cersei says at face value? I mean, every word she says just screams "lie". She was as much sympathising with Margaery as she was being nice to Sansa in season 1. It's an act, a deliberate attempt to make Margaery say something that she can use to cast her down.

The butthurt, my god.

I hear ya...

Did it ever even say that they were completely broke? Just because the mines are dry, doesn't mean that they don't have gold.

Exactly.

[Duckface]

I love how many people try to explain stupid things made in the show by making up stuff. If you have to think of something to logically explain what happened in the show and it isn't obvious to most of the people, then clearly it is a flaw in the show and don't try to calm yourself that way.

[Dofs]

Wasn't it mentioned that Robb took some gold mines in season 2? I don't remember. In the books he did. If they did mention, the show is contradicting itself then. If they didn't, well, interesting touch I guess, but repetitive, given that they did the same thing in season 2. But it doesn't make much sense that nobody knows about it. There should be hundreds if not thousands of workers in the mines. I am sure somebody would have noticed that they stopped working 3 years ago.

[Oakenfist]

The mines have dried up but that doesn't mean the Lannisters don't have gold. It could mean that in 20 years their gold supply will be completely diminished, but it does mean they don't have the resources to pay back the Iron Bank in full, which is why Tywin needs the Tyrells on his side.

I don't like or dislike the change.

[Fat Trell]

"So, you say you are the rightful King of Westeros, that is fine, Ser, but we will still need at least 2 of your latest payslips".

"And whom may I ask is this 'Patchface' and why is he listed as a dependent?"

Why do people talk as if the books are leagues better than the show? The books have PLENTY of flaws.

POV's that get waaay too many chapters (Im looking at you Brienne...and Asha....and Danaerys....and Tyrion and oh you get the point). Storylines that go on too long (when the hell is Dany going to Westeros? When is Robin gonna frickin die?). Prose is good but used overly much.

For gods sake, some people here make me ashamed to be a fan of the books. Can't you appreciate both as separate entities?

Are you really willing to argue that the show is better or on the same narrative level as the books? Really?

Can we write white wash and character assassination some more in this thread please? And agency. That's a new one I like. Agency.

The white washing of character A is total character assassination and leaves them with zero agency.

I like that. Feel free to copy and paste it into every thread it will save you more time to cry bitter tears about GOT unbelievebly not being just the text from the novels slowly scrolling Star Wars style up the TV screen.

Do you dispute that changes to the characterization of several characters(Tyrion and Cersei in particular) has presented them in a significantly more sympathetic light? Do you disagree that Stannis has been portrayed in as darker than the average fan saw him pre-show? Do you find the claims that Sansa seemed to have no active role in her escape, or even her plan for escape, to have no merit?

More importantly, can you craft a reasonable argument against these thoughts? Or is holier than thou sarcasm all we can expect?

[Wmarshal]

The show and are no longer close to being the same, it ended with this, and the Tyrells, you know the guys who produce nearly all the food goods which would require a lot of smallfolk thus producing a lot of soldiers, have the least amount of warriors.

[W1NT3RF3LL]

I guess I don't see how this change helps the TV show...it will make Cersei turning on the Tyrells suicidally insane...whereas in the book, it's extremely stupid to alienate them, but I don't think book Cersei would trash the alliance if she knew her family was really broke.

what part in the book made her look smart at all? As far as im concerned I have always seen cersei as a character who just wants power. In my opinion she just doesnt care of repercussions or any of such and is a huge risk taker. I dont even believe she cares about the lannister dynasty. She really just wants to be king and rule. At the end of the day it would not be far fetched if she still tells the IB to piss off in the show as that is something she would do anyways. Show or book. For some odd reason people feel she has gone soft this pass episode, but if you have seen her character and know who is you would know she is simply scheming to get others on her side for the trial and to sympathize. Its clear as day.

[bent branch]

I can't believe the people who are arguing that the mines drying up doesn't mean the Lannisters are in dire financial straights when TV!Tywin tells Cersei that they are in financial difficulties because the mines have dried up. Come on, this is not a show vs. book argument you're trying to make. Your argument is saying the show is internally inconsistent, whether you realize it or not.

As to whether this change was necessary or even made sense in the show context we need to think about what they have already established in the show about what the Tyrells and Lannisters each bring to the table. During season 2, King's Landing was experiencing a food shortage almost to the level of a famine. Why was there this food shortage? It was because the Tyrells had stopped shipments of food. If the Westerlands were a good food producing area, all the Lannisters would have had to do was break the blockade around KL and bring in food from the Westerlands. But the Westerlands are a hilly/mountainous area that has little more food production capacity than can feed their own area. Also, with the Reach being a food producing region they have a large population and, thus, can muster large armies. It is these two characteristics that make the Reach a good ally for the Westerlands. This is established in show in season 2. So it is internally inconsistent in the show for the Lannisters to now need to ally with the Tyrells for the money.

[Mr Fixit]

Also, with the Reach being a food producing region they have a large population and, thus, can muster large armies. It is these two characteristics that make the Reach a good ally for the Westerlands. This is established in show in season 2. So it is internally inconsistent in the show for the Lannisters to now need to ally with the Tyrells for the money.

In agrarian feudal society, having a large population and plentiful arable land directly leads to having lots of money and/or other taxable resources.

[Wmarshal]

The show took away their large army, now they are weaklings.

[bent branch]

In agrarian feudal society, having a large population and plentiful arable land directly leads to having lots of money and/or other taxable resources.

Your point? The question isn't that the Tyrells are wealthy. They obviously are. My point is that the Tyrells have resources that the Lannisters don't and the show has already established this point in a past season.

[Mr Fixit]

Your point? The question isn't that the Tyrells are wealthy. They obviously are. My point is that the Tyrells have resources that the Lannisters don't and the show has already established this point in a past season.

Yes, of course. You could say that since the war is pretty much over and regular lines of trade/communications established, it's the money, not armies or food, that's of greater interest to the Iron Throne. Anyway, I already said that I also think that the reveal about the mines is pretty stupid.

[Moët]

Perhaps Tywin is lying to control Cersei.

If she thinks the mines are dry, she's less likely to piss off anyone Tywin still wants to manipulate, i.e. the Tyrells.