Craster's: The Definition of Filler

[Rockroi]

Name a show that doesn't have filler...I'll wait :cool4:

Even Breaking Bad, almost universally recognized as the pinnacle of TV excellence, had filler EPISODE--not just scenes. "The Fly"...BRUTAL.

I personally like that D&D wrap up certain unfinished business in the books, I.E., Robert's bastards, Crasters, etc.

IMO, filler is okay, so long as it's of the entertaining variety.

Deadwood. The Wire. Rome. Hardly any filler.

Your example of the Fly episode of Breaking Bad is wrong. This is not a BB post, so I don't want to get into it, but the fact that you think the Fly episode was "filer" hows you don't know what filer is. Or you didn't know what was going on in BB. Either way, its not helpful.

Now, in shows (like the ones I mentioned above) was there SOME filer? Yeah, probably and I bet I didn't like it (Deadwood's closest brush with filer was the Brian Cox acting company and that provided some cultural context of the world of 1878).

And filer IS NOT merely stuff that was not in the books. Filer is material that does not advance the underlying story-line or narrative. And even THEN I can swallow some filer if its done well. Nothing at Craster's was done well that involved Bran. Bran's inclusion made no sense, Locke's reaction to Bran made no sense, looking for Bran at Craster's made no sense, Locke's plan to get Bran OUT of the North makes no sense; Ghost being there makes no sense; the fact that the women who were rescued make NO MENTION of the three high-born kids they had and the GIANT that they LITERALLY HAD CHAINED UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE YARD!

BUT... the argument is "But I LIKED IT! So it was GOOD!" No. I like ice cream to; its still not something to make a whole meal out of (or clam-less clam chowder for all of you who can follow).

In the book, Bran does very little and because they tossed out CH (for whatever reason) the writers feel like they had to do SOMETHING! And if we know one thing from season 4 its that the Showrunners are more embolden now to go more and more off-script. And with mixed results AT BEST (this is what happens when people start believing their own press; they start having Jaime rape Cersei and having very bad scenes at Craster's). And to a degree, its understandable as AFfC is a terrible book.

My counter? Scrap Bran. he already looks ridiculous (sorry, the actor looks like he's 19). You have him get to where he needs to go and replace the actor in a few years; right when Bran matters again (whenever that may be). Or, give hima worthwhile story. Either way, stop using the geographic method of story-telling (Well, the characters are close by so lets put a story together with them). That's bad story-telling....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay so... let me come back around and give an addition to the "Pro-Craster Scene" argument.

First, we have Jon's development as a leader, which I think is vastly overblown. HE so going to still lead the Wall in a few episodes; you don's need the silliness we saw. There is also the Hodor story-line which could make for some compelling discussion and TV viewing (Or... or not, as I have said).

But there is a third.

I spoke to a friend last evening about the episode; before we spoke, he actually liked the episode. After? While he did not come right out and say the episode was bad, the things I said above gave him pause and he was re-evaluating how he felt. BUT, during the talk he did discuss something he observed in the episode that I had glossed over. And its something to consider in this discussion.

When Bran sees Jon and Jojen advises him of how Jon will react, Bran has to made a very tough, very big decision. And its, possibly, the first time Bran has had to make such a tough decision. In fact, its possibly the first real decision Bran has made in the series so far. Bran has to decide to reunite with Jon OR continue to go it alone. And Bran decides.

Its interesting when you think about Bran and how similar he is to Sansa - both are relatively helpless in where they are: Sansa is in the belly of the beast at KL and now with LF; Bran is a cripple who has little say in his life. Sansa had no say or hand in what is happening at KL; no say in Ned's death, Joff's death; no say in her own marriage; no say in her own escape. Bran did not make any decisions after he awoke; he had no say in Robb leaving, in Ned leaving, in Cat leaving; he was lord of WF for such a short time before Theon dropped a load in the middle of the courtyard. Bran had no say in Maester Lewin's life or death; he had no say in his escape from WF. Even Maester advises Osha to hide from Bran the identity of the crofter's boys who were slain to hide Bran's "escape."

Even when Bran is out of WF- he has no real decisions to make: he is on the lamb. Its only in warging that he can take some control over his life, and even there is reminded how much he should NOT do that. Even his decision to rescue Jon is muted. HE has little, if any, say in his parting with Rickon, just as Sansa has no say in her parting with Arya.

When Bran sees Jon at Craster's its an emotional moment for him (here let me add: it SHOULD have been an emotional moment for the audience, but the writers did such a terrible job, few here barely noticed it). But the upside is that Bran made a choice and he made it for all the right reasons.

But ....

For starters, as I stated, this was such a powerful moment that even here on this thread, the scene's most ardent defenders failed to take any notice of it. Second, Bran ALREADY MADE this decision when Sam found him on the Wall; Bran chose to go ahead and not go back with Sam. So in many ways, we didn't need to see any of that at Craster's; we already saw that scene already. IN fact, in the books, Bran's decision plays far better and is clearer than in the show.

That's the best I can do in defending that terrible, cliche, contrived scene.

[Raffles]

My counter? Scrap Bran. he already looks ridiculous (sorry, the actor looks like he's 19). You have him get to where he needs to go and replace the actor in a few years; right when Bran matters again (whenever that may be).

I'd agree with that. He looked about 25 years old the way he was laying there with his long legs sticking out! It's a shame he's grown so tall.. but to be fair, he did look like he would be short in stature as he aged, when he was first cast.

[Miodrag]

My counter? Scrap Bran. he already looks ridiculous (sorry, the actor looks like he's 19). You have him get to where he needs to go and replace the actor in a few years; right when Bran matters again (whenever that may be).

Sorry, I have to ask, are you suggesting they should... plan?! Like, make plans? Long-term plans? In advance?

But, that is not good television. Good TV means: no planing at all, unreasonable sub-plots, meaningless dialogues, beautiful actors that aren't necessarily good in their job but they nevertheless get overpayed for few scenes per season (that's what passes for character development these days), overused soundtrack, clumsy choreography, and, above else, constant whining about how hard it is to make the show. That is what good TV is, mister! Not your glorified planing!

[Ankou]

Deadwood. The Wire. Rome. Hardly any filler.

Your example of the Fly episode of Breaking Bad is wrong. This is not a BB post, so I don't want to get into it, but the fact that you think the Fly episode was "filer" hows you don't know what filer is. Or you didn't know what was going on in BB. Either way, its not helpful.

Now, in shows (like the ones I mentioned above) was there SOME filer? Yeah, probably and I bet I didn't like it (Deadwood's closest brush with filer was the Brian Cox acting company and that provided some cultural context of the world of 1878).

And filer IS NOT merely stuff that was not in the books. Filer is material that does not advance the underlying story-line or narrative. And even THEN I can swallow some filer if its done well. Nothing at Craster's was done well that involved Bran. Bran's inclusion made no sense, Locke's reaction to Bran made no sense, looking for Bran at Craster's made no sense, Locke's plan to get Bran OUT of the North makes no sense; Ghost being there makes no sense; the fact that the women who were rescued make NO MENTION of the three high-born kids they had and the GIANT that they LITERALLY HAD CHAINED UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE YARD!

BUT... the argument is "But I LIKED IT! So it was GOOD!" No. I like ice cream to; its still not something to make a whole meal out of (or clam-less clam chowder for all of you who can follow).

In the book, Bran does very little and because they tossed out CH (for whatever reason) the writers feel like they had to do SOMETHING! And if we know one thing from season 4 its that the Showrunners are more embolden now to go more and more off-script. And with mixed results AT BEST (this is what happens when people start believing their own press; they start having Jaime rape Cersei and having very bad scenes at Craster's). And to a degree, its understandable as AFfC is a terrible book.

My counter? Scrap Bran. he already looks ridiculous (sorry, the actor looks like he's 19). You have him get to where he needs to go and replace the actor in a few years; right when Bran matters again (whenever that may be). Or, give hima worthwhile story. Either way, stop using the geographic method of story-telling (Well, the characters are close by so lets put a story together with them). That's bad story-telling....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay so... let me come back around and give an addition to the "Pro-Craster Scene" argument.

First, we have Jon's development as a leader, which I think is vastly overblown. HE so going to still lead the Wall in a few episodes; you don's need the silliness we saw. There is also the Hodor story-line which could make for some compelling discussion and TV viewing (Or... or not, as I have said).

But there is a third.

I spoke to a friend last evening about the episode; before we spoke, he actually liked the episode. After? While he did not come right out and say the episode was bad, the things I said above gave him pause and he was re-evaluating how he felt. BUT, during the talk he did discuss something he observed in the episode that I had glossed over. And its something to consider in this discussion.

When Bran sees Jon and Jojen advises him of how Jon will react, Bran has to made a very tough, very big decision. And its, possibly, the first time Bran has had to make such a tough decision. In fact, its possibly the first real decision Bran has made in the series so far. Bran has to decide to reunite with Jon OR continue to go it alone. And Bran decides.

Its interesting when you think about Bran and how similar he is to Sansa - both are relatively helpless in where they are: Sansa is in the belly of the beast at KL and now with LF; Bran is a cripple who has little say in his life. Sansa had no say or hand in what is happening at KL; no say in Ned's death, Joff's death; no say in her own marriage; no say in her own escape. Bran did not make any decisions after he awoke; he had no say in Robb leaving, in Ned leaving, in Cat leaving; he was lord of WF for such a short time before Theon dropped a load in the middle of the courtyard. Bran had no say in Maester Lewin's life or death; he had no say in his escape from WF. Even Maester advises Osha to hide from Bran the identity of the crofter's boys who were slain to hide Bran's "escape."

Even when Bran is out of WF- he has no real decisions to make: he is on the lamb. Its only in warging that he can take some control over his life, and even there is reminded how much he should NOT do that. Even his decision to rescue Jon is muted. HE has little, if any, say in his parting with Rickon, just as Sansa has no say in her parting with Arya.

When Bran sees Jon at Craster's its an emotional moment for him (here let me add: it SHOULD have been an emotional moment for the audience, but the writers did such a terrible job, few here barely noticed it). But the upside is that Bran made a choice and he made it for all the right reasons.

But ....

For starters, as I stated, this was such a powerful moment that even here on this thread, the scene's most ardent defenders failed to take any notice of it. Second, Bran ALREADY MADE this decision when Sam found him on the Wall; Bran chose to go ahead and not go back with Sam. So in many ways, we didn't need to see any of that at Craster's; we already saw that scene already. IN fact, in the books, Bran's decision plays far better and is clearer than in the show.

That's the best I can do in defending that terrible, cliche, contrived scene.

Maybe your friend was thinking, "It's really not worth arguing something I'm not passionate about with someone who is really passionate about it."

[DaveyJoe]

Sorry to say, but this:

is a complete nonsense, because you're forgetting Lee not only sped-up some parts of the scene, but also slowed-down some other parts. Practically, that fight scene is made of parts that are either sped-up or slowed-down. According to your logic, by slowing down some parts Lee wanted to fool audience into... what exactly?!

Actually, Lee doesn't try to hide the technique from the audience. He's really not trying to fool anybody. It takes a moron to think actual fights look like the one we're watching in Lee's movie. He wasn't trying to depict realism. And that's the whole difference. Yeah, both Lee and GoT were using the same technique, but Lee used it for artistic impression, while D&D used it to increase the excitement in a supposedly realistic scene. If you want to continue with comparing the two, while accusing myself of "having no idea what I'm talking about", perhaps it would help if you have an idea what you're talking about.

As for your award - congratulations, honestly. Win a hundred more, for all I care. Your aggressive need to defend GoT's embarrassments is what troubles me, not your professional success.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Undercrank

Seven Samurai by Akira Kurosawa, in this action scene you can see several shots that have been sped up, no slow motion either, this technique is used to make the action seem faster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqpWOvjkULY

Go to 2 minutes into this clip to see lots of undercranking in Sammo Hung's Blades of Fury:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8ErOeA3K3E#t=165

More of the same in Jet Li's Fist of Legend:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2ut9G-AXjk

Here are outtakes of a Jackie Chan fight scene from The Young Master, look at how slowly they are acting out the fight choreography:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o9u2Rr3pSI

I can't find a clip of the fight as it appeared in the movie, but if you've seen it, you know they sped it significantly.

[DaveyJoe]

Well after watching those clips I can't help myself but to pick up some Jameson and watch a Shaw Bros. flick tonight. :lol:

[SlowLoras]

First, we have Jon's development as a leader, which I think is vastly overblown. HE so going to still lead the Wall in a few episodes; you don's need the silliness we saw.

To have him showcase all his leadership skills in one battle would be a bit daft - especially when last season saw him out of his depth, being constantly reminded of how little he knows. IMO it's more organic to have the fact presented to us before the wall - and solidified during that battle. Nobody can say it was a fluke, he's led a successful battle twice. (This happens in the book too - only with wildling skirmishes instead of mutineers.)

[Miodrag]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Undercrank

Seven Samurai by Akira Kurosawa, in this action scene you can see several shots that have been sped up, no slow motion either, this technique is used to make the action seem faster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqpWOvjkULY

Go to 2 minutes into this clip to see lots of undercranking in Sammo Hung's Blades of Fury:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8ErOeA3K3E#t=165

More of the same in Jet Li's Fist of Legend:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2ut9G-AXjk

Here are outtakes of a Jackie Chan fight scene from The Young Master, look at how slowly they are acting out the fight choreography:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o9u2Rr3pSI

I can't find a clip of the fight as it appeared in the movie, but if you've seen it, you know they sped it significantly.

About Seven Samurai clip, I didn't see any speeding-up. Perhaps I missed it, but then again, those guiding captions don't mention it either. It's all about cutting and editing, nothing about undercranking. And besides, we're talking about 60 years old movie - even if there are sped-up (undercranked) parts in it, Kurosawa still did a better job than a 21th century production worth dozens of millions, because his sped-up shots are at least not jarring enough for me to spot it right away.

As for other examples, they're all taken from martial arts flicks. Definitely not something that is regarded as serious productions. And, once more, it seems they've done better job than GoT, because at least they used an audience as a background in order to strengthen the sense of unbroken continuity, while in GoT those Ned's and Brienne's swings look jarringly discontinuous to the rest of scenes. Speaking of examples, already mentioned Terminator 2 is an interesting case, because Cameron didn't try to hide the footage is sped-up: he probably didn't have to, since the fight isn't supposed to be entirely realistic. But, as far as I can remember, there was one tiny shot with a compromised continuity because of speeding-up. Like, while two machines are fighting, humans standing in background can be seen, and moves of those humans look unnaturally rapid. Can't be certain, but I think it's in one of Terminator movies, and my bet would be on the second one. It was more than 20 years ago, but I seem to remember it was brought up in film courses I attended at the time.

The piece you linked contains the line I find crucial:

Generally, the frame rate isn't lowered to less than 21 frames per second, as anything beyond this makes the effect too glaring.

Underlined part is the essence of my complaint: this technique is to be used only when the effect isn't going to be too glaring. Meaning, it will either not break the continuity (for example, car chases), or the breaking of continuity is irrelevant because of artistic reasons ("Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", "Hero", "House of Flying Daggers" and other Oriental movies that aren't marshal-arts flicks). What GoT did is the opposite, because it can't help but break the continuity. Those sped-up swings do stand out, and not in a good way.

Anyway, looks like editors/D&D learned their lesson, because after Season 2, they didn't speed up any footage, even though they had a number of opportunities for that.

[Yojimbo]

To have him showcase all his leadership skills in one battle would be a bit daft - especially when last season saw him out of his depth, being constantly reminded of how little he knows. IMO it's more organic to have the fact presented to us before the wall - and solidified during that battle. Nobody can say it was a fluke, he's led a successful battle twice. (This happens in the book too - only with wildling skirmishes instead of mutineers.)

And who where the ones who wrote Jon into this this situation? That they had to make a ham fisted attempt of Jon actually having to do something because as you said, all we got last season was "you know nothing Jon Snow".

And to compare muntineers attack with the Battle for Castle Keep. Honestly lets break it down;

Mutineers Attack

• Jon wants to go clear out Craster's Keep because "OMG WHAT HAPPENS IF MANCE FINDS OUT OUR ACTUAL NUMBERS! WE ARE DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDD!"

Alliser says No............... (wow some one actually giving a order, to bad it not Jon)

Alliser has a change of heart, when Janos thinks this will be a good way of getting rid of Jon. Alliser gives Jon permission to ask for volunteers, (remember the number because it a nice shining example of how "good" this shows writing is) who are Grenn, Edd, Locke and three other random Brothers, so six volunteers and Jon are going to Craster's Keep. (yes the hallmarks of a good leader is asking, not telling..........)

Next time we see the Brothers is when Locke is infiltrating the camp to find out they have no guards posted, most of them are already drunk, there are 11 mutineers and there is a "hut with a pack of hounds they should stay clear off" (would have been nice to assume Jon give Locke the order to go scout, but it could have been Moon Boy for all we know)

Next thing we see is a full frontal assault lead by Jon (omg Jon is actually leading at something), against a foe who out numbers them (ohhhhhhhhh :frown5: )

Jon get into a "boss fight", almost dies and is saved by the help of one of Craster Wives (I can see why Alliser doesn't want show Jon training the recruits now)

After the "battle" Jon finds out they have lost 4 Brothers, only to find out from Edd it 5 (yes such great writing they can't even get a single digit number straight between two episodes :rofl: ), He also counts they have killed 10 of the 11 muntiners. (Not bad Jon only losing 2/3 of your men against a group of men who where drunk and you had the element of suprise on and who is the Wight? Grenn or Edd.......... :rofl: )

Next we see Jon asking Crasters wives if they want to come to Castle Black with them

They say No............they would rather make their own way in this barren frozen waste land and they want the keep burned down (Jon thinks this is a spiffing plan and goes along with it)

Yep I can see Jon is just oozing leadership material, give that man a talking raven already and make him Lord Commander :lol: :lol: :lol:

[SheRa Seastar]

He's not supposed to be a leader yet, he's not ready. He wasn't ready when he was voted LC, hence Aemon's 'kill the boy' speech.

I must be watching GOT wrong, I watch to be entertained and follow the story, sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised, sometimes I'm not overwhelmed. It must be exhausting having to watch and scrutinise every single scene. Do you receive some sort of qualification at the end of the series, like an A level in game of thrones? Is there a certificate?

[SlowLoras]

He's not supposed to be a leader yet, he's not ready. He wasn't ready when he was voted LC, hence Aemon's 'kill the boy' speech.

I must be watching GOT wrong, I watch to be entertained and follow the story, sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised, sometimes I'm not overwhelmed. It must be exhausting having to watch and scrutinise every single scene. Do you receive some sort of qualification at the end of the series, like an A level in game of thrones? Is there a certificate?

Pretty much with you on this. It's entertainment. It's fun. It doesn't all have to mean something deep and profound. Jon's a kid out of his depth learning how to lead men, and how to fight outside of the training yard. I think the scene pretty much expressed those things. Therefore, it worked for me.

[Yojimbo]

He's not supposed to be a leader yet, he's not ready. He wasn't ready when he was voted LC, hence Aemon's 'kill the boy' speech.

I must be watching GOT wrong, I watch to be entertained and follow the story, sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised, sometimes I'm not overwhelmed. It must be exhausting having to watch and scrutinise every single scene. Do you receive some sort of qualification at the end of the series, like an A level in game of thrones? Is there a certificate?

Am sorry I thought this forums was a place for discussion and debate, not just a place where fans can come to scream about "omg I love khaleesi and her dragons!". And yes I watch this show to be entertained aswell, I was not entertained, here are the reason why I was not entertained, I've already been accused in this thread of "not even paying attenion to the show" and now am be accused of "over scruntinsing" it? Maybe from now on this forum should should only allow members to post a question as thread titles, and all other members are only allowed to write "Yes" or "No" in response........................better yet I think I will just not use that muscle known as the "brain" when I watch this show from now on. Then all I will care about is when I see tits, blood, swords and dragons.....................or maybe not.

[Duckface]

When does entertainment became something that does not require good writing or thinking?

[SlowLoras]

Am sorry I thought this forums was a place for discussion and debate, not just a place where fans can come to scream about "omg I love khaleesi and her dragons!". And yes I watch this show to be entertained aswell, I was not entertained, here are the reason why I was not entertained, I've already been accused in this thread of "not even paying attenion to the show" and now am be accused of "over scruntinsing" it? Maybe from now on this forum should should only allow members to post a question as thread titles, and all other members are only allowed to write "Yes" or "No" in response........................better yet I think I will just not use that muscle known as the "brain" when I watch this show from now on. Then all I will care about is when I see tits, blood, swords and dragons.....................or maybe not.

the thing is, there's thinking about the show & analysing the scenes, and then there's picking the show apart stitch by stitch, and to me this thread seems a case of the latter, at least from a few posters - and I mean that on both the 'pro' and 'anti' side. Nothing wrong with thinking about a show & discussing it, but there comes a point where it gets overly pedantic. Just saying.

[Uldra I]

You mean the whole weak plot line of not allowing the wildlings finding out about the nightswatch actual strength? Pray tell, how would it make the situation there in any worse if Mance actually found out? What because Mance now knows they have around 100-200 men instead of a 1000 he now has the keys to victory? Infact isn't that the whole idea behind the raiding party? That Mance doesn't have to use his main force to break through the tunnel because he knows it would cost his wildlings too many lives, but if he sends a small raiding force to take Castle Black unawares then he and his wildling horde can just march through the tunnel unopposed?

Or do you mean the other can of worms the writers opened up when they decided Sam couldn't keep his mouth shut and he spilled the beans to Jon that Bran is still alive? So Sam and Jon are looking over a map and Jon deduces the only place Bran could possibly go for shelter beyound the Wall is Craster's Keep?

Or the fact that Jon has to prove his leadership qualities at all? Because the writer's decided for the last 3 seasons "Jon Snow knows nothing"? Infact isn't Jon going to prove his quilty when he defends Castle Black from the wildling raiding party attack to open the tunnel? Oh never mind, because the writers decided to open another can of worms when they saw fit to have Alliser and Janos show up to Castle Black before the wildling suprise attack took place.

The writers of the show have decided to write themselves into this mess and now they are doing a poor job of writing themselves out of it. The "butterfly effect" that is taking place, I've got say, is a very nice sight to see though :)

But then again what do I know right? Am the one who is not paying attention..............

:agree:

Once again going to start with the statement, I sincerely love the shows. The writers, cast, crew, artists, directors.... everyone involved with the shows have done an amazing job! Can't even imagine how they do it all. 'Brilliant' is the word that comes to mind when I think of all the amazing talents that have lent their hands to the production of the entire series. Also realizing there are changes that have to happen because of the difference in mediums. IMO until the last two episodes, the changes seemed necessary and wise, but not ones that really change Martin's story too much. My apologies, because I promised I'd not speak about this again, but I just can't help myself.

Realizing that most people who post on internet forums are much younger than I am, I suppose the action scenes would probably suit their tastes better than intrigue and character development so I can somewhat understand the overwhelming love of the Craster's Keep scenes in the last two episodes. The more blood and sexual violence the better, right? OTOH, In the books Coldhands is a much beloved and very mysterious figure. He was our first real introduction to "others". There could have been a couple of interesting scenes with him to flesh out the Bran arc a little. CH could have even included the scene where he killed the mutineers (who are wights by then) in an off the scene moment from the books, & there would be the fight with the wights in order to get Bran into the cave... a very exciting scene, but didn't include rape or even nudity, a limitation for some, I know. Jon has lots of negotiating and relationship building to do at the wall. There are lots of things in the books that could make this storyline interesting enough for the show... still no violence or even nudity, sorry to say. Why did D&D have to go for "filler"?.

Just gotta say: If they are going to write a new story, then D&D and whoever else is in charge of the storyline should at the very least stop implying they are trying to bring GRRM's story to screen. They should just change the name of the series, and give GRRM credit for being an inspiration, and go their merry way with the rest of the story.

I cannot agree that what ever they make up between the beginning and the end of GRRM's series is acceptable as long as they reach the same end point. What an absurd and ridiculous argument. It will not be the same story if they tell a different story. Period. Not saying the show is FUBAR yet, but just saying, this kind of disregard for the original story is playing it awfully close to that edge.

[Yojimbo]

the thing is, there's thinking about the show & analysing the scenes, and then there's picking the show apart stitch by stitch, and to me this thread seems a case of the latter, at least from a few posters - and I mean that on both the 'pro' and 'anti' side. Nothing wrong with thinking about a show & discussing it, but there comes a point where it gets overly pedantic. Just saying.

I agree, but what other response could I give other than "This arc was pure filler, the writing was shit and books version was just better /thread". That would (imo) be far more unfair of a response than, the one I've given. And am glad you used the word pedantic, because this is where I feel most people who disliked this arc are coming from. It was the show writers who thought "minior" details could be changed/cut and end up at the same satisfying conclusion, the trouble is (again I can't stress this enough) imo the books did a far better job at arriveing at these conclusions because they where better written, better rationalised and felt far more organic than what the show is attempting todo. The only "sin" I think that every one in this thread is commiting (myself included) is over speculating on what future episodes will bring, just from my pov I really can't see it getting any better from the evidance I've seen from the show so far. But of course I would love to be proven wrong and my only punishment will be watching a entertaining show which I will enjoy, then again it most likely the "anti" camp will find something wrong and we will continue our head butting matchs next week :cheers:

[ground_control]

When does entertainment became something that does not require good writing or thinking?

According to the IMDB, it became official on May 31, 2000: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0761327/?ref_=tt_ep_ep1

[roxWolfox]

According to the IMDB, it became official on May 31, 2000: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0761327/?ref_=tt_ep_ep1

Ain't that the truth. :(

[Blazfemur]

alas, ill have to keep getting notifications on this thread for another 2 days. but at least it's only 2 days. it's a show, people. get over it. it's epic in the grand scheme of things, and while a lot of "extra" occurred that didnt suit the proper entertainment you would deem acceptable, it did move the story forward.

personally, id just deal with it, stop whining about it, and move the hell on. youre going to watch the next episode anyway, as am i. and im probably going to have to deal with your complaints next episode, too. for something else.

"meh, ghost wasnt supposed to growl, that pissed me off."

...really?

[Yojimbo]

alas, ill have to keep getting notifications on this thread for another 2 days. but at least it's only 2 days. it's a show, people. get over it. it's epic in the grand scheme of things, and while a lot of "extra" occurred that didnt suit the proper entertainment you would deem acceptable, it did move the story forward.

personally, id just deal with it, stop whining about it, and move the hell on. youre going to watch the next episode anyway, as am i. and im probably going to have to deal with your complaints next episode, too. for something else.

"meh, ghost wasnt supposed to growl, that pissed me off."

...really?

Well you could always just deal with it, stop whining about it and move on. It is only a thread after all.............