Craster's: The Definition of Filler

[DormeDwayne]

Why waste 30 precious minutes (maybe more) in a time-crunched series on inventing a plot line that deviated from the source book, jeopardized the integrity of a characters decision in a future book, and spoiled a yet unreleased book?

:agree:

[WinterisAlwaysComing]

The non-book friends I talked to loved the extra Craster stuff. And I liked it.

It was nice to see Ghost finish his threat of eating Rast from back in Season 1.

It's nice to add some tension and fighting to Bran's green dreams and warging and talking to trees.

[Miodrag]

I think we can all agree that accusing someone of trolling is tantamount to calling him a name (namely, a troll).

Thanks. I thought it needn’t an explanation, but obviously it did. Some posters feel this almost hysterical urge to defend the show by attacking anyone who criticizes it. It’s hard to have a decent discussion that way.

I thought the sword fight in 1.05 was superior to any action we've seen in Season 4, so whatever blasphemy they committed I personally wish they'd recreate it. I had trouble following the fights at both Craster's and the inn due to the choreography, blocking, and editing. If there was a speed issue, I didn't notice it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L8ByreRfUo

Around 2:16, Ned’s charging in a circling manner. That swing was sped up. It rolls on a different speed than the rest of the scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knq_7MfHO0o

Around 2:14, Brienne swings downwards. That’s her last swing, before executing the guy. And it’s also sped up. Not as obviously as Ned’s, but it is. Possibly some of her earlier swings are sped up as well, but this one definitely is.

Now, there’s a viewer perspective to this, and there’s a professional angle. As a viewer, one doesn’t necessarily have a problem with speeding up, especially if one doesn’t notice it. And the vast majority of viewers obviously didn’t notice, nor cares. It’s only natural. Viewers usually don’t pay attention to such details. But, speaking from a professional perspective, what GoT did was a blasphemy. It goes against the principles of making motion pictures. One fragment of a footage was covertly sped up, in order for the scene to be more effective. Not the entire scene, but only one fragment. In editing business, that is blasphemy, indeed. And, to my knowledge, nobody ever did anything similar. In no TV show or a movie I’ve seen anything like that, and I watched a lot of those. That is not usual screen manipulation. Examples other posters provided represent usual screen manipulations, which aren’t dependent on being unnoticed by viewers. These two scenes, however, depend only on that. Because, once one notices fragments of the scene are rolling on a different speed than the rest of it, the scene is probably going to loose it’s credibility.

It doesn’t have to. Everyone’s perfectly entitled to like the scene, even with noticing the speeding-up. When it comes to matters of liking or disliking, a viewer is entitled to a lot. But, from a professional point of view, the editing of those two scenes was really blasphemous. Now, had it happen only one time (Ned-Jaime), I’d think it was an accident, unintended mistake. No problem. But, because it happened twice, it shows tendency. And that is all kinds of wrong, regardless of the amount of footage that was manipulated. The amount is microscopic, indeed, but I’m talking about the attitude. Simply speaking, editing isn’t supposed to be about that. Nobody does that. You don’t speed-up parts of the footage in order for them to be more effective and hope viewers won’t notice. That is not the special effect, that is messing with the screen, which is a separate layer in any viewing experience. For the viewers to believe in what they see on screen, they must have complete trust in the screen itself. That is why the screen is never to be manipulated without the viewers realizing it. It’s just wrong to use the screen against the viewers, which is what GoT did in these two instances.

Show-lovers tend to ignore any tendency whatsoever. Before Marshal gave that interview about a producer that "represents the pervert side of the audience", show-lovers attacked anyone who talked about the tendency of the showrunners to have as much nudity on screen as possible, even though the tendency was very obvious. And it's not much better even nowadays, even after Marshal's interview. And, this tendency about editing is less obvious. But, I'd really like for any reporter to ask anyone from the crew about these editing incidents. I'm positive no professional editor would ever say it's acceptable.

[David Selig]

Not the "speed up" discussion again, please. It was beyond tedious the first time and beaten to death back then.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

Double post

Focking legend!!!

[The Prince of Newcastle]

I don't think I've heard so much pointless whinging in all my life.

The scenes happened. They were entertaining. Get over it.

And why do the show runners have to appease book readers? Why are some of you so entitled?

Coldhands didn't make it. So what. He's a fucking zombie.

Just endless whinging week in and week out.

I get the Jaimie Cersei thing in the sept and hope to never read anything about it again after the uproar it caused.

But this... Hmmm maybe they could have followed Brienne around the river lands for 20 minutes whilst she searches for a made of 3 and 10 in chapters that are definitely not filler in the slightest.

[Mr Fixit]

But this... Hmmm maybe they could have followed Brienne around the river lands for 20 minutes whilst she searches for a made of 3 and 10 in chapters that are definitely not filler in the slightest.

20 minutes? More like 2 hours! :drunk:

[boojam]

It is not normal. You can repeat it million times, but the fact remains nobody does that. There are action scenes wherever you look, and nobody does it GoT way. It is wrong, and if you don't see why, just watch the damned scenes again. Because of what they did the sparing looks forced, not the other way around.

Historically what REALLY was like , say in battle, or otherwise?...when trying to kill or disable someone with a sword?

I can't count the number of movies where guys are 'fencing' when it would seem to me one would try ever dirty trick and more! in the book to kill someone!

I liked Bronn's line in the first season when Lysa says "You did not fight with honor", Bronn says "He did!"

I thought har! yeah if someone is trying to kill ya, the hell with honor!

[Dudu42]

The thing is, this short arc was harmless plotwise. The intention was clear to me, provide something extra for show watchers whie keeping the plot intact to please the book readers.

And still, some book purists make a big deal about it.

My only complain is that it was very predicable, but I think that's the price you pay to don't harm the main storyline, so I'm ok with that.

[Roose Seal]

Thanks. I thought it needn’t an explanation, but obviously it did. Some posters feel this almost hysterical urge to defend the show by attacking anyone who criticizes it. It’s hard to have a decent discussion that way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L8ByreRfUo

Around 2:16, Ned’s charging in a circling manner. That swing was sped up. It rolls on a different speed than the rest of the scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knq_7MfHO0o

Around 2:14, Brienne swings downwards. That’s her last swing, before executing the guy. And it’s also sped up. Not as obviously as Ned’s, but it is. Possibly some of her earlier swings are sped up as well, but this one definitely is.

Now, there’s a viewer perspective to this, and there’s a professional angle. As a viewer, one doesn’t necessarily have a problem with speeding up, especially if one doesn’t notice it. And the vast majority of viewers obviously didn’t notice, nor cares. It’s only natural. Viewers usually don’t pay attention to such details. But, speaking from a professional perspective, what GoT did was a blasphemy. It goes against the principles of making motion pictures. One fragment of a footage was covertly sped up, in order for the scene to be more effective. Not the entire scene, but only one fragment. In editing business, that is blasphemy, indeed. And, to my knowledge, nobody ever did anything similar. In no TV show or a movie I’ve seen anything like that, and I watched a lot of those. That is not usual screen manipulation. Examples other posters provided represent usual screen manipulations, which aren’t dependent on being unnoticed by viewers. These two scenes, however, depend only on that. Because, once one notices fragments of the scene are rolling on a different speed than the rest of it, the scene is probably going to loose it’s credibility.

It doesn’t have to. Everyone’s perfectly entitled to like the scene, even with noticing the speeding-up. When it comes to matters of liking or disliking, a viewer is entitled to a lot. But, from a professional point of view, the editing of those two scenes was really blasphemous. Now, had it happen only one time (Ned-Jaime), I’d think it was an accident, unintended mistake. No problem. But, because it happened twice, it shows tendency. And that is all kinds of wrong, regardless of the amount of footage that was manipulated. The amount is microscopic, indeed, but I’m talking about the attitude. Simply speaking, editing isn’t supposed to be about that. Nobody does that. You don’t speed-up parts of the footage in order for them to be more effective and hope viewers won’t notice. That is not the special effect, that is messing with the screen, which is a separate layer in any viewing experience. For the viewers to believe in what they see on screen, they must have complete trust in the screen itself. That is why the screen is never to be manipulated without the viewers realizing it. It’s just wrong to use the screen against the viewers, which is what GoT did in these two instances.

Show-lovers tend to ignore any tendency whatsoever. Before Marshal gave that interview about a producer that "represents the pervert side of the audience", show-lovers attacked anyone who talked about the tendency of the showrunners to have as much nudity on screen as possible, even though the tendency was very obvious. And it's not much better even nowadays, even after Marshal's interview. And, this tendency about editing is less obvious. But, I'd really like for any reporter to ask anyone from the crew about these editing incidents. I'm positive no professional editor would ever say it's acceptable.

I'm not a big fan of the show and I give it a lot of flack myself but, good lord, this is probably the most ridiculous complaint I've ever read about anything, seriously.

Fight scenes are by definition illusions, they are designed, choreographed and edited to trick the audience into thinking there's an actual fight going on and not two stunt guys hitting each other with foam swords. If they need to speed up the scene a little to make Sean Bean look like a competent fighter, who the hell cares?

There's a lot to criticize about the show but speeding up literally a tenth of a second of a fight scene to make it more exciting is not one of those things.

[six]

It was filler-ish, and I think every book reader could have guessed Jon and Bran weren't going to meet, but seriously we've had much much worse filler than this. In fact, I quite liked the scene, I even went back and watched it again. If all the filler scenes were action packed sword fights, a near reunion, Jon Snow impaling a dude through his skull and burning stuff down, my general satisfaction with the show would be much higher.

I thought Locke's arc was pointless though. It was anti-climatic, I don't know what they were thinking when they wrote it.

[Mr Fixit]

I thought Locke's arc was pointless though. It was anti-climatic, I don't know what they were thinking when they wrote it.

It could've been handled better, that's for sure. Perhaps he should have been left down south to meet Brienne and Pod. We know she will bite someone's ear off, so why not his? A nice payback for chopping off Jaime's hand.

[paddington]

I guess that in an effort to show stuff is happening in the North, it worked alright. I'd imagine that there is probably some timeline issues, and they need at least to have something occuring up North ever few episodes just get us out of Kings landing.

[six]

It could've been handled better, that's for sure. Perhaps he should have been left down south to meet Brienne and Pod. We know she will bite someone's ear off, so why not his? A nice payback for chopping off Jaime's hand.

Yeah, either they gave him an actual plot with the NW and Jon which I would have been ok with if it was good, or he should have met with Brienne. She could have cut off his hand and take revenge like in the books "that one was for Jaime", or like you say the ear like she did with Vargo.

[sj4iy]

I'm not a big fan of the show and I give it a lot of flack myself but, good lord, this is probably the most ridiculous complaint I've ever read about anything, seriously.

Fight scenes are by definition illusions, they are designed, choreographed and edited to trick the audience into thinking there's an actual fight going on and not two stunt guys hitting each other with foam swords. If they need to speed up the scene a little to make Sean Bean look like a competent fighter, who the hell cares?

There's a lot to criticize about the show but speeding up literally a tenth of a second of a fight scene to make it more exciting is not one of those things.

It's almost as if they don't actually want to cut off people's heads to film the scenes. How cheap of them!

[Darryk]

Crasters Keep was a really good addition by the writers. Don't know why people are complaining about it so much.

Gave them the chance to

a) show Jon's emerging leadership abilities, and justify his increasing popularity with younger members of the NW

b ) flesh out Jojen and Bran's storyline, and show Bran's developing abilities

c) give Burn Gorman more screentime

All in all, one of the best changes they've made IMO.

[Rockroi]

Miodrag:

We obviously read different books. In books I read, Qhorin sees a leader in Jon and tutors him. Just like Aemon. Just like Jeor.

I don’t really have a dog in the fight about whether or not speeding up the film is a good idea or why Stephen Dilante doesn’t watch GoT (it seems pretty harmless to me); I think your opinion of the show is more critical than my own (and that’s refreshing in itself) and you and I both look at the Craster Liberation with severe incredulity. But to you, Craster's Keep represents a continuation of poor execution and bad decisions for the show, while to me it represents a departure from a relatively well done show until now. I think the season so far has been the weakest of the series, but its only half-way done AND its still better than 90% of what passes for TV nowadays. And while I completely agree that Jaime's rape of Cersei may be the biggest mistake the show has made, I think it can recover. Regardless, I don't think this is a case of either of us being "book purists" (as we are accused), but rather looking at the problems of the series in a certain way.

However, you may be- just a tad – over-protective of the books. Look, I get your argument on Jon Snow’s election as LC of the Watch; Martin at the very least lays the groundwork for the election (even though … I find it very hard to swallow how nearly 1000 men voted for somebody 2/3 of them had never met- AND who did not seek their votes. Why would anyone vote for a man who didn't seem to want the job?). Regardless, your point was that being believable v. non-believable requires some grounding in either reality or laying a proper foundation ahead of time.

The problem is that while you are critical of the show, you have a tendency to gloss over similar events on the books . Here is an example:

In books I read, Qhorin sees a leader in Jon and tutors him.

Okay. Lets break this down:

Jon hailed him. “Lord Commander Mormont would see you at once. I’ll show you to his tent.”

Qhorin swung down from his saddle. “My men are hungry, and our horses require tending.” “They’ll all be seen to.”

The ranger gave his horse into the care of one of his men and followed. “You are Jon Snow. You have your father’s look.”

“Did you know him, my lord?”

“I am no lordling. Only a brother of the Night’s Watch. I knew Lord Eddard, yes. And his father before him.”

Jon had to hurry his steps to keep up with Qhorin’s long strides. “Lord Rickard died before I was born.”

“He was a friend to the Watch.” Qhorin glanced behind. “It is said that a direwolf runs with you.”

“Ghost should be back by dawn. He hunts at night.”

Martin, George R.R. (2003-01-01). A Game of Thrones/A Clash of Kings (Kindle Locations 22964-22971). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

And thus ends every word spoken between Jon Snow and Qhorin Half-hand before Qhorin chooses him for the mission. Literally, about 35 seconds of interaction. After that, Mormont appears, the men talk, Jon leaves to get breakfast for the two men, returns to the tent (taking all of maybe 5 minutes) – he returns to the tent and … Qhorin drops the bomb that he wants to take Jon on the mission North, which leaves Mormont perplexed.

What was it in there wherein Qhorin Halfhand saw “a leader” in Jon? Did he ‘wrastle-up the bacon in a particularly heroic manner? Now, I get some of the context- Qhorin knows OF Jon Snow- the direwolf comment and he knows the family-line. But what was it about Jon Snow… saying “hi” that made Qhorin see a leader? And why was Jeor so caught off-guard if it seemed natural that Jon was such a leader?

Here is my point: there is questionable writing in the books as well. At times is shallow; Martin uses some short-hand to move the story along. There are times were characters draw conclusions quickly and do things that require more explanation than given. I mean, - again using Jon as an example- the Lannisters are the richest family in Westeros, yet they lack a Valayrian Steel sword. Jon Snow? He gets one after being in the NW for all of 3 months.

In other words, its not just the show that tries to gloss over things or take short-cuts. Martin did to.

Now, I am going to briefly address some of your other points, but for brevity’s sake I am only going to dedicate a few words; that and remember that I ultimately agree with you on Craster’s Keep, especially your biting point that AFTER the liberation is over … how come none of the wives mention to JS that for a few days there were three highborn people in the camp along with a giant? That, ah, seems relevant…

On the subject of Ygritte:

Jon didn't have to chase Ygritte - once he decided against killing her, he let her go, while in the show she freed herself from him (in a rather ridiculous way, one might add). In the books I read, Ygritte isn't ridiculing Jon's worldviews so efficiently.

I agree with the first point, and quibble with the second. Ygritte is ridiculing Jon’s world view in the books, but she has more time to do it; it takes the form of narratives and long stories because, well, we have the time. I also thought Jon defended his world –view better in the show than in the books. And overall- I kinmd of like Ygritte's jibbing of Jon Snow - she even seems to be making fun of book-Jon Snow (her mockery of how he has slain men and WW but he's afraid of a naked girl). I think that Ygritte's humor and style- edgy, rough, mocking- is refreshing in a world so dour.

Though, to be fair, there was nothing worse than the season 3 finale where Ygritte- a woman with no riding experience and no knowledge of the North -somehow was able to track down Jon Snow – an experienced rider with ample knowledge of the terrain.

On Dormer as Maergery and Renly:

You made the point that both were miscast. I disagree on both. Maergery and Renly are- for better or worse- different characters in the show than in the books. Maergery is far more prominent and Renly, sadly, far different. Dormer’s Maergery is really fun to watch. She is power-hungry and scheming, which makes her more compelling. Is she the same as her character on the Tudors? Yes and no, but ultimately that’s a far greater indictment of the Tudors than it is of Dormer – the show did very little with ANY of their female characters (outside of Henry’s first, Spanish wife) and Dormer’s Ann was fine, but- as you said yourself – sometimes actors cannot get away from bad writing. I think she puts a lot more polich on her acting; gives it more zip, more life and definitely more edge.

Renly was just poorly written. IN the books, Renly is a dashing, charming knight with a deep understanding of what he is doing and why. In the show, he has been replaced by a wishy-washy, unsure and uninspired little man who is a puppet of a greater house; that charming ersatz-Robert is gone and replaced by … frankly… a cliché. I don’t blame the actor; I blame the part.

And maybe the show-runners’ greatest fail has been Stannis and their belief that Renly would “unquestionably” be a better King than Stannis. It boggles the mind that they actually thought that.

On Dilante not watching the show and Dance demanding a bigger part:

In the Huffington Post piece that was linked, Dilante seems to really like the show’s story and speaks of it very highly; in the story you linked, he only says he does not watch; he does not seem to be making a judgement on its quality. As others have stated, this can be for many reasons, but Dilante would not be the first actor who did not watch themselves on TV or film (IIRC, the woman who played Cat also never watched herself). Its not a rare thing and certainly not indicative of a man who hates the show he’s on. And pays his bills.

The rumor that Dance threatened to leave if they did not write him more stuff? Meh… may be true, may not. I find it hard to believe considering Dance must have known he would have a small part in Season 1, so why would he wait until before Season 2 to start complaining? Chances are they told Dance that the part would grow bigger and Dance – to one degree or another- kept them to their word. I have heard many interviews from Dance that he thinks the writing is great.

Also, there are a variety of stories out there that the actors love the show and many do more publicity than you would think if they did not. Now, this does not prove anything, but its a counter to the point that its a sign f how much the actors have control over the show.

On HBO not backing D&D during the “George W. Bush” head thing:

I don’t see a rift between HBO and D&D because they distanced themselves from the revelation (the “revelation” was on the DVD commentary; it did not hit the mainstream media for many weeks later). I think that HBO could think D&D are the greatest, most superior writers of the last 4 generations and they STILL would have done that action. Why? Because that’s how corporations act: they do not want controversy or glitches in public perception to ruin or interfere with the “Goose that is Laying the Golden Egg.” HBO- up until GoT- was riding a string of losers and missteps (Big Love, Bored to Death, The Comeback, Enlightened, Hung, Luck, In Treatment, No 1 Ladies Det Agency) – even their successes (Rome, Deadwood) had been pulled for costs or difficulties with writers. Even their “hits” – Boardwalk Empire for instance- were pedestrian, or not popular with audiences (the Wire- while a critical success- never caught on with the general public). GoT’s trajectory had no ceiling after that first season and HBO was not going to let a small controversy over a fake, ex-President’s head get in the way. That really has nothing to do with support or difficulty with D&D.

Now, other issues you had, frankly, I agree with- the “pervert” line; the Jaime-rape scene, etc and I do think they show some problems with the show. At the same time- this is D&D’s first work on ANY TV show (and, I guess to you, it shows). I think they have done pretty well so far.

To me, I think the source-material is a major reason for the show’s success; but that is by no means a guarantee for success in TV/film- look no further than Bonfire of the Vanities and any Shakespeare adaptation. Further, the show has added in a lot of scenes and ideas and stories that HAVE been really fun to watch (mostly character-interaction not addressed in the books: Tywin-Arya, Robert-Cersei etc). And to me, that makes Craster’s Keep such a disappointment, while to you its more of “what did you expect?”

I expect more. I think the show that can deliver Blackwater and the Red Wedding and Tywin Lannister talking and Maergery Tyrell eating up the scenery and Tyrion and wit, sarcasm and charm- I think THAT show has to do a better job and NOT do shorthand like they did at Craster’s Keep.

Otherwise… we are Lost.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Karl and Locke made it much better than the dragon-stealing clusterfuck of season 2.

[Chebyshov]

Crasters Keep was a really good addition by the writers. Don't know why people are complaining about it so much.

Gave them the chance to

a) show Jon's emerging leadership abilities, and justify his increasing popularity with younger members of the NW

b ) flesh out Jojen and Bran's storyline, and show Bran's developing abilities

c) give Burn Gorman more screentime

All in all, one of the best changes they've made IMO.

This is how I feel. I think half the problem is that they are hell-bent on having episode 9 be the Battle of Castle Black, which is too late in the time frame (IMO the part that comes afterwards is more interesting), so all Jon would have to do otherwise this season is sit and mope in an ice cell. Meanwhile, Bran is just an utterly boring character on screen (and in the books, according to some). His story is so difficult to portray in any sort of engaging way through the television medium.

The Craster's plot addition did just what Darryk pointed out, and did so in a way that really didn't alter the story in a major sense. It also allowed for Jon and Ghost to be reunited, when we didn't see Ghost for nearly all of Season 3, and people would be confused why they weren't together in the first place. And it tied up the mutineers loose end, which given the absence of CH, needed to be handled some how.

[The Boar of Gore]

Because, GHOST man, GHOST!

Seriously, I think that is all we're getting out of this.

Yeah but it made no sense for Ghost to be locked up there in the first place. He could have been ranging on the other side of the Wall and met up with Jon the next time Jon went across, just like in the books.

I don't mind them deviating from the books if the writing is good, but if it's just going to be humdrum I'd rather they stuck with the GRRM story. Or at least write something that makes sense and doesn't go nowhere.