Craster's: The Definition of Filler

[sj4iy]

Yeah but it made no sense for Ghost to be locked up there in the first place. He could have been ranging on the other side of the Wall and met up with Jon the next time Jon went across, just like in the books.

I don't mind them deviating from the books if the writing is good, but if it's just going to be humdrum I'd rather they stuck with the GRRM story. Or at least write something that makes sense and doesn't go nowhere.

He's still a wolf. He's not a god.

[Chebyshov]

He's still a wolf. He's not a god.

Yes, he's able to be captured. But why in Seven Hells would the mutineers have kept him alive?

IMO, the show audience needed some kind of explanation of where Ghost was this past season, so his being caged was really just to that end. I really hope they focus on the direwolves more moving forward (and maybe some Nymeria dreams, please).

[sj4iy]

Yes, he's able to be captured. But why in Seven Hells would the mutineers have kept him alive?

IMO, the show audience needed some kind of explanation of where Ghost was this past season, so his being caged was really just to that end. I really hope they focus on the direwolves more moving forward (and maybe some Nymeria dreams, please).

Well, Karl "The Fooking Legend" Tanner wanted the wolf left alive, so god only knows his reasons. But it led to Rast becoming dog chow, so I can accept it XD

[Chebyshov]

Well, Karl "The Fooking Legend" Tanner wanted the wolf left alive, so god only knows his reasons. But it led to Rast becoming dog chow, so I can accept it XD

Love the "fooking legend" :lmao:

This is also why I didn't mind these scenes. Ghost eating Rast was an awesome payoff, and I screamed when Bran!Hodor broke Locke's neck. It was nice to be surprised. And much nicer than the Talisa-stabbed-in-stomach surprise from last season :ack:

[Victorian Beckoy]

Craster's wives' decision to 'find their own way' would have made much more sense if they had shown the NW emptying the larders before burning the place down. At least Ghost feasted on Rast before appearing all satiated to Jon, otherwise a season-long diet of chicken drumsticks might have prompted him to be cremated inside whilst sucking the fat out of those pigs Craster had valued so much.

[Ankou]

Yeah, and Nobody seems to mind that this is not the story that GRRM tells either. I guess as long as you have tits and ass and blood, D&D can feel free to butcher a man's lifetime achievement with abandon. Sheesh... *shaking head in disbelief* ... Nobody even cares. :frown5:

They didn't light his books on fire. Even if they butcher his story on the show it has nothing to do with GRRM's achievements, except for episodes he writes.

[DaveyJoe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L8ByreRfUo

Around 2:16, Ned’s charging in a circling manner. That swing was sped up. It rolls on a different speed than the rest of the scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knq_7MfHO0o

Around 2:14, Brienne swings downwards. That’s her last swing, before executing the guy. And it’s also sped up. Not as obviously as Ned’s, but it is. Possibly some of her earlier swings are sped up as well, but this one definitely is.

Now, there’s a viewer perspective to this, and there’s a professional angle. As a viewer, one doesn’t necessarily have a problem with speeding up, especially if one doesn’t notice it. And the vast majority of viewers obviously didn’t notice, nor cares. It’s only natural. Viewers usually don’t pay attention to such details. But, speaking from a professional perspective, what GoT did was a blasphemy. It goes against the principles of making motion pictures. One fragment of a footage was covertly sped up, in order for the scene to be more effective. Not the entire scene, but only one fragment. In editing business, that is blasphemy, indeed. And, to my knowledge, nobody ever did anything similar. In no TV show or a movie I’ve seen anything like that, and I watched a lot of those. That is not usual screen manipulation. Examples other posters provided represent usual screen manipulations, which aren’t dependent on being unnoticed by viewers. These two scenes, however, depend only on that. Because, once one notices fragments of the scene are rolling on a different speed than the rest of it, the scene is probably going to loose it’s credibility.

It doesn’t have to. Everyone’s perfectly entitled to like the scene, even with noticing the speeding-up. When it comes to matters of liking or disliking, a viewer is entitled to a lot. But, from a professional point of view, the editing of those two scenes was really blasphemous. Now, had it happen only one time (Ned-Jaime), I’d think it was an accident, unintended mistake. No problem. But, because it happened twice, it shows tendency. And that is all kinds of wrong, regardless of the amount of footage that was manipulated. The amount is microscopic, indeed, but I’m talking about the attitude. Simply speaking, editing isn’t supposed to be about that. Nobody does that. You don’t speed-up parts of the footage in order for them to be more effective and hope viewers won’t notice. That is not the special effect, that is messing with the screen, which is a separate layer in any viewing experience. For the viewers to believe in what they see on screen, they must have complete trust in the screen itself. That is why the screen is never to be manipulated without the viewers realizing it. It’s just wrong to use the screen against the viewers, which is what GoT did in these two instances.

For the record, I am a professional video editor and this argument is total nonsense.

[Koi No Yokan]

For the record, I am a professional video editor and this argument is total nonsense.

What a surprise.

[DormeDwayne]

And still, some book purists make a big deal about it.

That's a bit unfair - I disliked the inclusion of the arc, but not because I'm a book purist (even though I'm an 'old' book reader). There have been several deviations, inclusions and omissions that I really liked. This one simply served no purpose, eliminated a future internal conflict I was really looking forward to and was not even entertaining or even interesting to watch. That's just my opinion, of course - I understand many viewers may have found the scenes entertaining, and their opinion is perfectly legit - but so is mine. That's not a book purist making a big deal about it, that's a show viewer who happens to also be a book reader expressing their own, subjective personal opinion.

[Colonel Green]

Simply speaking, editing isn’t supposed to be about that. Nobody does that. You don’t speed-up parts of the footage in order for them to be more effective and hope viewers won’t notice. That is not the special effect, that is messing with the screen, which is a separate layer in any viewing experience. For the viewers to believe in what they see on screen, they must have complete trust in the screen itself. That is why the screen is never to be manipulated without the viewers realizing it. It’s just wrong to use the screen against the viewers, which is what GoT did in these two instances.

"Against" the viewers? What on earth are you talking about? Why would anybody care about using editing to create an impression, and why would that be any different from any other effect? Because the sacredness of "the screen"?

I criticize this show plenty on my own, so I'm far from an automatic defender of it. But this is one of the silliest criticism I have ever seen, not just about this show, but about any show.

[Good Guy Garlan]

For the record, I am a professional video editor and this argument is total nonsense.

Yeah, I already talked about this, but as a film major (and a human being) I'm seriously shell-shocked at Miodrag's argument. I mean, rarely do I see someone being so wrong about something and refusing to accept it. And the sheer hyperbole of it: calling it a blasphemy (really?) and saying that no one has ever done it before (even if that editing technique is literally used in virtually every action sequence).

But I'll let it go, even if Miodrag won't (seriously, this was more than two seasons ago, get over it!). There are lots of other things to nitpick about this show, and this isn't even a nitpick

[sj4iy]

Yeah, I already talked about this, but as a film major (and a human being) I'm seriously shell-shocked at Miodrag's argument. I mean, rarely do I see someone being so wrong about something and refusing to accept it. And the sheer hyperbole of it: calling it a blasphemy (really?) and saying that no one has ever done it before (even if that editing technique is literally used in virtually every action sequence).

But I'll let it go, even if Miodrag won't (seriously, this was more than two seasons ago, get over it!). There are lots of other things to nitpick about this show, and this isn't even a nitpick

There's a word for someone like that.

Hmm, I wonder what it is...

[superdeluxe]

Great Filler:

Viewer Complaints: Bran's journey is boring - Craster's gave him something to do, plus HODOR.

Jon Snow: Not believable as a leader of men, kind of a coward - Craster's rally troops to his side to go and get traitors, shows he can lead men and kick A.

So yeah technically filler (But then again most of Game of Thrones is 'filler'), but serves its purpose.

[jakmanuk]

I agree. Worse than being filler, it was futile filler. It took a grand total of 2 episodes(about 40 minutes) to solve.

Locke was decent enough for a show only character. He also provided a tie to the south for the Wall. Something this plot sorely lacks pre-Stannis. Karl was similarly somewhat entertaining.

Why not keep them around, see where their characters can effect the story? Why not have the mutineers join Mance at a pivotal time to help turn the battle? Why not have them simply sit tight in Craster's and fight the Others or interact with Stannis' army in some way? Why not keep Locke around to turn on Jon at some dramatic moment?

It seems like the show can't decide if it wants to veer away from the books or maintain the plot. They add things only to drop them for a contrived or blatantly obvious reason later on to tie things back to the books.

Also: WTF are Craster's wives going to do? They have no arms, just burned their only shelter, and have likely never left the keep before. Where are they going to go? Why would they not simply stay at the only place they've ever known? Or at least take the nice guy who just saved your lives up on his offer to take you to a warmer place with no ice zombies? How will they survive in the permanently frozen wasteland that is the show's Beyond the Wall? Is there any explanation even possible for what their next move is? They don't seem to want to go to Mance(who they have no way of finding besides) given they want to "make their own way."

This is such a blatant "we don't want to solve this problem we wrote ourselves into" move.

I think they did this because they've given up on life really, I'm not sure :/

[Ingelheim]

For the record, I am a professional video editor and this argument is total nonsense.

Let's not feed the troll.

[Blazfemur]

Definitely a filler episode, Jon uniting with Ghost was a note of importance, and Bran's disregard for warging into humans becomes more apparent (it's supposed to be considered "wrong," and an "abomination")

I dont see why Bran couldnt attempt to force himself into Karl to begin with, it wouldve saved a lot of time. Sure there wouldve been a struggle, but you never know, Bran mightve overtook him.

[King Cheops]

As someone who hates <sneer>Lord Snow</sneer> and Bran in the books and on the screen this arc was much more enjoyable than just about anything related to those two. I really hope that Brienne or Jaime get to kill these two.

re: Ghost reunion. This works much better than just randomly having Ghost lope up to Jon. More emotional payoff.

[sj4iy]

As someone who hates <sneer>Lord Snow</sneer> and Bran in the books and on the screen this arc was much more enjoyable than just about anything related to those two. I really hope that Brienne or Jaime get to kill these two.

re: Ghost reunion. This works much better than just randomly having Ghost lope up to Jon. More emotional payoff.

Brienne or Jaime get to kill Jon and Bran? What?

[Miodrag]

<snip>

This has to be the most thoughtful and most serious disagreement with myself I ever encountered on this site, and I encountered any number of those. I thank you for that. I appreciate it big time.

Now, to work. First, I’m a book-purist. People here treat it as some kind of disease. It is not. It is a general stance on adaptations, meaning: if it was on me, I’d always try to stay as close to the source material as possible. That is neither a fault nor a virtue on its own, but my preference. And honestly, I think it’s among the most logical one. Why would I want to change something I love and respect? Example: I dislike “dracarys” moment from the books. For my taste, it was too predictable and too easy, in short – too convenient. It wasn’t terrible (I like the prose in that chapter), but it’s bellow the standard GRRM himself set. But, if I was to adapt the books into TV show, I wouldn’t change it, because I know readers predominantly love the scene. In fact, it is one of the most iconic scenes in Dany’s entire arc, according to readers’ reactions. And that – the reward it brought to so many readers – would be the most important thing for me. I would never try to “improve” that in adaptation, because I’d trust the general results GRRM achieved more than I’d trust my own opinion on a particular scene. Like, if my own creativity is the most important thing for me, then what the hell am I doing with another man’s work?! That is the way I’d treat any work I respect. But, I don’t expect everyone to think like me. That would be ridiculous. So no, I don’t deny D&D the right to change things from the source material. It is between them, GRRM and HBO to decide how much they’re going to change. On the other hand, I’m still going to have an opinion about each of their changes. Why not? However, that opinion isn’t clouded by my purism. It’s utterly arrogant to think that criticism of the show may stem only from book-purism, like many show-lovers argue constantly. That ridiculous accusation is usually delivered by posters who themselves have opinions clouded by any number of things: visual medium that inspires so-called “passive consummation”, advertising campaign, promotional videos, interviews, and even by other posters. The level of conformism in our day and age is alarming, and this forum is, sadly, not an exception.

I repeat: none of the issues I have with the show is in any way related to my purism. I manage to separate impressions from opinions quite fine. Therefore, I know there are changes and there are changes. Even bad changes differ among themselves: some are damaging on the long run, some are damaging only short-term, and some are utterly pointless but not damaging. Behind some bad changes there was a good idea, but the execution went wrong.

Let’s focus for a moment on Tywin-Arya scenes. Majority thinks those were some great scenes. But, when you challenge that notion, it always boils down to this: it was great to see Dance and Maisie together. And they both are quite powerful on screen, indeed. But, is it a good enough reason for the change? I don’t think so, because Roose is also played by a very good and charismatic actor, and Roose’s conversation with Arya would’ve been more instrumental. In ASOIAF universe, Roose is simply more important for the story than Tywin is (though both are very important secondary characters). So, story-wise, it’s more rewarding to flesh Roose than Tywin. That’s what George did in ACOK. And besides, putting scenes just so that two actors can work together is somewhat shallow. Like, what would’ve happen if Dance was cast as Yoren, for example? Would the show extend Yoren’s storyline, so that he and Arya can have more screen-time together? This “actors first, writing second” approach is not my favorite, to tell the truth. But, all in all, Tywin-Arya scenes ruined nothing. It achieved very little, and the general story lost much by omitting Roose-Arya scenes, but, in show universe, it was not bad. Like I said, how much potential of the source material will D&D use is on them, HBO and (to a lesser extent) GRRM.

But, what I find an exaggeration of the highest order, is this notion that Tywin-Arya scenes were an improvement of the source material. One’s perfectly entitled to think it really is an improvement, but I’m also perfectly entitled to view that notion only as a result of misunderstanding or misremembering Arya’s ACOK arc. And when I say that, those aggressive show-lovers tend to accuse me of purism. And like, yes, I am a purist, but that has nothing to do with how superior book story is to the show story in that case. (Or in any other case, for that matter. I’m still to hear about any improvement the show made on the books.)

And then, there are simply bad changes. Not because they’re changes, but because they’re badly scripted scenes. Like Amory nonsense from season two. Like whores giving the money back to Pod. Like Shae angrily refusing diamonds from Tyrion, only to be not angry at all in the very next scene two of them have together. Like Jaime killing Alton for no reason at all – yes, it’s also kinslaying, but, in the show universe, kinslaying was never established as a grave sin; but, killing the one person who’s willing and capable of helping you in your escape is simply bad writing. Like having Brienne carry two swords, so Jaime can conveniently grab one (which could’ve been avoided by moving the scene from season two finale, in which Brienne kills Stark soldiers, to season three – however, that would require some long-term planning). Like Theon being knocked down not before he delivers the speech. And so on...

It doesn’t mean books are perfect. But, nothing ever is perfect. People seem to think that if a work didn’t achieve perfection, it’s a good enough justification to “improve” the said work. Funny enough, those same people often bitch when someone criticizes something they love (the show), but it goes beyond hypocrisy. It’s pure disrespect for creativity. Just look at how often production difficulties are discussed here. And, truth be told, this show is very challenging production wise. Possibly the most challenging show ever in that regard. But, no production difficulties can match the biggest difficulty in any creative process: starting from a blank page. Creation of deep and engaging characters that go through the rich plot that also emphasizes and examines rewarding themes – that is the most difficult thing in storytelling, regardless of the medium that delivers the story. If one fails to realize that, one’s hardly fit to discuss creative decisions, regardless of their actual quality.

Even with imperfections, the novels stand those endless tests they’re put to, in discussions on this and many other sites. The reason is, they’re never ridiculous. There are scenes you or I find sub-par. But, in each of those scenes, we can at least figure out what’s going through the heads of characters involved. You think Qhorin’s reasons for choosing Jon are underexplained, which is a legitimate remark, but, as you noticed, it’s easy for a reader to come up with some explanation that sounds reasonable. Opposite to that, what was going through Locke’s head when he tricked Jon and the crew into avoiding the hut with Bran and company? “Everything’s going to be OK if they stay away from the hut, because I’m gonna take the boy and run, and nobody’s going to catch me”?! Or when he joined NW? “I’ll take the oath that is for life and breaking of which is punishable by death, because someone there must know something about those Stark boys nobody heard off recently”?! What can possibly go through Talisa’s head when she asks a king she just met for the first time about his ultimate strategy and political goals?! What can possibly go through Talisa’s head when she asks Robb is he angry at her because she’s pregnant?! What is going on through Pyat Pree’s head at any given moment?! Why is Tywin at first saving prisoners because, as he says, Lannisters need every single body, but then starts executing his own soldiers (not the prisoners, mind you) when Amory is killed?! By the way, what happened to the said investigation that was more important than lives of Lannister soldiers?! And how come no Lannister soldier remembers the girl Amory was chasing not long ago and right before he was killed?! Rattleshirt is releasing Jon... why exactly?! One of my favorites: what’s going through Margaery’s head while she’s suggesting the threesome with Loras?! Is she having an incestuous relationship with Loras? Did she just revealed it to Renly? Or is she willing to have sex with her brother just so Renly can get excited? What is going through Littlefinger’s head when he decides to carry Ned’s bones to Renly’s camp?

And I could go on, but you get the point. Purism has nothing to do with my biggest complaints. As for the books, I gladly discuss other people’s complaints on them, but not when books’ possible imperfections are brought up just so the show-lovers can “defend” D&D. Now, there is one possible weak spot of the books that the show exposed: when in season one Shae tells Tyrion that no girl would go to bed with him only hours after she was almost raped, it does sound correct. Granted, we’re still to find out what exactly happened with Tysha, but, for now, TV Shae’s reasoning sounds more solid than Jaime’s final confession to Tyrion in the books. Also, Ned seeing Arya and directing Yoren toward her was a nice addition: wouldn’t call it an improvement, because the chapter with Ned’s beheading hardly needs an improvement (and I can’t see how this addition could be added without ruining Arya’s POV, which would be a crime), but for a TV show that isn’t told through POV’s it was a nice addition. And, Theon burning the letter was a good adaptation, considering the show does lack both time and the insight into Theon’s head to convey his inner hysteria from ACOK properly. So, you see, I’m not clouded by my purism.

[Metopheles]

As someone who hates <sneer>Lord Snow</sneer> and Bran in the books and on the screen this arc was much more enjoyable than just about anything related to those two. I really hope that Brienne or Jaime get to kill these two.

re: Ghost reunion. This works much better than just randomly having Ghost lope up to Jon. More emotional payoff.

Wow. I never thought there would be a real person who hates Jon. Humanity never fails to surprise.