Craster's: The Definition of Filler

[ground_control]

There is more than one type of filler. There's at least "we have 40 minutes of a 55 minute show and we need *something* else filler" and "we need to give these actors/characters more screen time" filler. I think the North scenes in the last two episodes were the latter kind of filler.

In these definitions, "filler" is more of a motivational description, not a quality description.

In terms of *quality*, I think the recent North scenes were abysmal, and almost painful to watch. In other words, the scenes were *filler*, but not *filling*.

[The Fenris Wolf]

This whole conversation doesn't make any sense. This is entertainment, guys. Everything is filler.

If you want something that's not filler, I present you "Game of thrones, the movie" :

-Prologue : The King of Westeros is killed during a rebellion. His baby daughter is hidden in a foreign country.

-1st part : 15 years later... Daenerys gets dragons and wants revenge.

-2nd part : 5 years later... Ice monsters and zombies attack Westeros, while nobody in the Kingdom seems to be strong enough to resist. When everything seems to be lost, Daenerys arrives with her dragons and saves the country.

-3rd part: 1 month later... Daenerys is crowned queen of Westeros. THE END.

Now you have no "filler". I hope you enjoyed your 5 minutes movie.

I don't know about you, but I prefer a thousand-pages book and a series that last hours, with "filler" situations, characters, cities, landscape (and food) descriptions, battles, love stories, travels, plots... Because that is entertainment. And it is all these "filler" elements that make this series so enjoyable!

I agree with this 100%, very well said Eunuch.

[Envie]

Oh I agree too with "The Eunuch" on this - I had my reservations when they announced it was being produced by HBO 4 seasons back (even though HBO has so many great series) - but they quickly proved they had the budget and casting power to create a visually entertaining 'feast' for all of us. It's obviously wildly popular and doing very well so I have no quibbles at all about 'filler' material being put into the show. There are clearly people in this debate who felt the Craster's Keep extended story arc was badly done and a terrible addition to the show but that's just their opinion as much as it's ours to argue it was 'tasty filler' instead of crap. ;)

[Blazfemur]

the purposes of the northern scenes served as the following:

without craster's keep, we never would have witnessed the baby turn, and the social hierarchy and reveal that the leader is the nights king.

on a lesser note, Jon reunites with Ghost. however,

the purpose of the craster's keep episodes, were to show jojen dying, and give leeway into the purpose of crasters bastards ( ;) )

[Zachary Snow]

its not filler.... its HBO, television is different from novels. I read all the books and i love the world that GRRM has created and all of the characters especially some that aren't in the show but i loved this episode. Everything it added was great and it doesn't affect the outcome of the books. it wasn't filler it was D & D putting their own spin on the story they're adapting to a different medium and i think they nailed it. and the way grey wind died at the red wedding pissed me off so seeing ghost kill someone is awesome. but how could they get ghost and summer in that cage? how could they have taken summer out of the trap and put him in the cage???

[roxWolfox]

This whole conversation doesn't make any sense. This is entertainment, guys. Everything is filler.

If you want something that's not filler, I present you "Game of thrones, the movie" :

-Prologue : The King of Westeros is killed during a rebellion. His baby daughter is hidden in a foreign country.

-1st part : 15 years later... Daenerys gets dragons and wants revenge.

-2nd part : 5 years later... Ice monsters and zombies attack Westeros, while nobody in the Kingdom seems to be strong enough to resist. When everything seems to be lost, Daenerys arrives with her dragons and saves the country.

-3rd part: 1 month later... Daenerys is crowned queen of Westeros. THE END.

Now you have no "filler". I hope you enjoyed your 5 minutes movie.

I don't know about you, but I prefer a thousand-pages book and a series that last hours, with "filler" situations, characters, cities, landscape (and food) descriptions, battles, love stories, travels, plots... Because that is entertainment. And it is all these "filler" elements that make this series so enjoyable!

And I'd pay to see this, too! :lol:

[JagLover]

its not filler.... its HBO, television is different from novels. I read all the books and i love the world that GRRM has created and all of the characters especially some that aren't in the show but i loved this episode. Everything it added was great and it doesn't affect the outcome of the books. it wasn't filler it was D & D putting their own spin on the story they're adapting to a different medium and i think they nailed it. and the way grey wind died at the red wedding pissed me off so seeing ghost kill someone is awesome. but how could they get ghost and summer in that cage? how could they have taken summer out of the trap and put him in the cage???

Yep it is only filler to someone who has read the books and considers any 'non' book material to be filler.

On the show it progressed the Bran, Jon and white Walker storylines in a meaningful way and hence was not 'filler'

[SlowLoras]

Even if it was filler - and filler needn't be a bad thing if it's entertaining - it was some tasty filler indeed. Suits me just fine. Much better than 'Bran trudging endlessly through the forest while Jojen slowly dies' type filler as served by the books (I actually liked Bran's arc, but it was never going to work on TV.)

[Yojimbo]

Am sorry but the whole "Assault on Craster's Keep" was just poorly written. Look at the whole exchange between Jon and Locke with the "hounds"

Locke "There's a hut on the westside of the keep and we should stay clear of it"
Jon "Why?" (very good question John, why indeed should you stay clear of it)

Locke "They have some hounds chained up inside, the closer we can get without the hounds sniffing us out, the better" (ok fair enough point Locke, being the competent leader Jon is, he would want to minimise the risk to his men, so a nice sneaky approch will be used for the assault"

Assault scene
*The nightwatch charge in like a pack of viking raiders, alerting ever one in Craster's Keep and loses half their men in the process*

*Am face palming the whole time and thinking "why would any one at the nightwatch want Jon as the lord commander, I would rather have Sam's socks in charge than tvs "no nothing Jon Snow"*

*Not to mention after the fighting is done, no one seems to care there is no hounds, no one asks "where are these hounds Locke was talking about?", no one asks crasters wives "where are the hounds in the hut?", craster wives don't say "there no hounds in the hut, just some prisoners, a giant of a man, and three highborn kids one of them being a cripple" Nope, all we get is, "We are going to make our own way Lord Crow, now burn done the keep and let ever whitewalker and wildling in the north see a nice burning fire*

The only thougths I got out of Craster's Keep arc was, "Hmmmm, D&D claim they got to cut characters out the story because of show time restriction, but they are more than happy to dish out 40 minutes or poorly written filler tripe"

[JagLover]

The only thougths I got out of Craster's Keep arc was, "Hmmmm, D&D claim they got to cut characters out the story because of show time restriction, but they are more than happy to dish out 40 minutes or poorly written filler tripe"

You may have thought it was poorly written, which is debatable. But the fact is that this is the biggest action Jon has taken on the show to justify being voted LC.

He led a successful raid that killed all the mutineers and avenged the death of Mormont and personally killed the ringleader. You can easily see his actions being spoken of approvingly by the rest of the nights watch and that, combined with the fact he is a bastard Stark, makes it feasible they would elect him.

It is also a big development for the character who has gone from a emo boy looking gormlessly at Ygritte to a leader of men.

You may not like the scenes but what, aside from the fact it is not in the books, makes it filler?

[DormeDwayne]

...

:agree:

You may have thought it was poorly written, which is debatable. But the fact is that this is the biggest action Jon has taken on the show to justify being voted LC.

But Jon is yet to prove himself a competent commander in the coming episodes (I don't want to include spoilers), and much more so than could ever be achieved by Craster's.

[sj4iy]

:agree:

But Jon is yet to prove himself a competent commander in the coming episodes (I don't want to include spoilers), and much more so than could ever be achieved by Craster's.

Well, he has to start somewhere.

[Khal-a-bunga]

When did Jon or Locke or any of them say that the plan was to sneak in and attack the mutineers? Waiting for cover of night doesn't mean that you're going for stealth, just that you'd prefer they didn't see you approach until you meant to be seen. Avoiding a pack of hounds seems like a logical thing to do, whether you're going in sneakily or not. And since we hear the mutineers yelling before Jon and the rest of the guys have started their attack, perhaps they were even spotted on their approach...?

Seems to me they were itching for a fight, and had a score to settle, though. Don't see the issues of logic here.

[Yojimbo]

When did Jon or Locke or any of them say that the plan was to sneak in and attack the mutineers? Waiting for cover of night doesn't mean that you're going for stealth, just that you'd prefer they didn't see you approach until you meant to be seen. Avoiding a pack of hounds seems like a logical thing to do, whether you're going in sneakily or not. And since we hear the mutineers yelling before Jon and the rest of the guys have started their attack, perhaps they were even spotted on their approach...?

Seems to me they were itching for a fight, and had a score to settle, though. Don't see the issues of logic here.

Ok then and after the fight? Not one member of the nights watch thought, "I wonder why I can't hear barking? I wonder why the traitors never unleashed the hounds? Ok, if there are no hounds, why did Locke say there was?". Whats more how did Jon prove himself as leadership material? Going out with 10 men and coming back with 5, when the nigths watch are already pressed for men and will need ever single one for the coming conflict. Oh that right they where, as you say, iching for a fight, to hell with the bigger picture, it not like a leader needs that as a virtue..................he just needs to charge in and almost get killed by a lowborn from flea bottom, perfect leadership material if I ever saw it...........................

[Khal-a-bunga]

You seem to have missed the whole point of going back to the keep in the first place, which tells me that you weren't paying much attention. And since we barely saw any of the aftermath, I think it's a little early to assume that we've heard the last about Locke (though I wouldn't expect much more than a passing mention). Do they need to explain to us that Jon now understands that Locke was lying? Are we not able to assume as much, based on the fact that he knows there were no hounds chained up at the keep?

Jon proved himself a leader because he was willing to undertake a dangerous mission with the best interests of the Night's Watch in mind, while simultaneously avenging Commander Mormont. You just seem to be taking incidents in isolation, and ignoring the context of what has previously been established in the show.

[sj4iy]

When did Jon or Locke or any of them say that the plan was to sneak in and attack the mutineers? Waiting for cover of night doesn't mean that you're going for stealth, just that you'd prefer they didn't see you approach until you meant to be seen. Avoiding a pack of hounds seems like a logical thing to do, whether you're going in sneakily or not. And since we hear the mutineers yelling before Jon and the rest of the guys have started their attack, perhaps they were even spotted on their approach...?

Seems to me they were itching for a fight, and had a score to settle, though. Don't see the issues of logic here.

Well, people would rather nitpick every original thing in the show to death to prove that it wasn't as good as what was left out. If it were about logic, they'd be doing the same to Coldhands even existing.

[Joseph Nobles]

Why didn't the Night's Watch wonder where the hounds were? Maybe when a giant direwolf walked up and greeted Jon, they thought that's what Locke was on about.

[DaveyJoe]

Not too mention they're all hopped on adrenaline after being in a fight and killing a bunch of men. We have the luxury of hindsight and are able to reflect on all of the details while these men are in the heat of the moment, a chaotic moment, and their blood is up.

[Yojimbo]

You seem to have missed the whole point of going back to the keep in the first place, which tells me that you weren't paying much attention. And since we barely saw any of the aftermath, I think it's a little early to assume that we've heard the last about Locke (though I wouldn't expect much more than a passing mention). Do they need to explain to us that Jon now understands that Locke was lying? Are we not able to assume as much, based on the fact that he knows there were no hounds chained up at the keep?

Jon proved himself a leader because he was willing to undertake a dangerous mission with the best interests of the Night's Watch in mind, while simultaneously avenging Commander Mormont. You just seem to be taking incidents in isolation, and ignoring the context of what has previously been established in the show.

You mean the whole weak plot line of not allowing the wildlings finding out about the nightswatch actual strength? Pray tell, how would it make the situation there in any worse if Mance actually found out? What because Mance now knows they have around 100-200 men instead of a 1000 he now has the keys to victory? Infact isn't that the whole idea behind the raiding party? That Mance doesn't have to use his main force to break through the tunnel because he knows it would cost his wildlings too many lives, but if he sends a small raiding force to take Castle Black unawares then he and his wildling horde can just march through the tunnel unopposed?

Or do you mean the other can of worms the writers opened up when they decided Sam couldn't keep his mouth shut and he spilled the beans to Jon that Bran is still alive? So Sam and Jon are looking over a map and Jon deduces the only place Bran could possibly go for shelter beyound the Wall is Craster's Keep?

Or the fact that Jon has to prove his leadership qualities at all? Because the writer's decided for the last 3 seasons "Jon Snow knows nothing"? Infact isn't Jon going to prove his quilty when he defends Castle Black from the wildling raiding party attack to open the tunnel? Oh never mind, because the writers decided to open another can of worms when they saw fit to have Alliser and Janos show up to Castle Black before the wildling suprise attack took place.

The writers of the show have decided to write themselves into this mess and now they are doing a poor job of writing themselves out of it. The "butterfly effect" that is taking place, I've got say, is a very nice sight to see though :)

But then again what do I know right? Am the one who is not paying attention..............

[sj4iy]

You mean the whole weak plot line of not allowing the wildlings finding out about the nightswatch actual strength? Pray tell, how would it make the situation there in any worse if Mance actually found out? What because Mance now knows they have around 100-200 men instead of a 1000 he now has the keys to victory? Infact isn't that the whole idea behind the raiding party? That Mance doesn't have to use his main force to break through the tunnel because he knows it would cost his wildlings to many lives, but if he sends a small raiding force to take Castle Black unawares then he and his wildling horde can just march through the tunnel unopposed?

Or do you mean the other can of worms the writers opened up when they decided Sam couldn't keep his mouth shut and he spilled the beans to Jon that Bran is still alive? So Sam and Jon are looking over a map and Jon deduces the only place Bran could possibly go for shelter beyound the Wall is Craster's Keep?

Or the fact that Jon has to prove his leadership qualities at all? Because the writer's decided for the last 3 seasons "Jon snow knows nothing"? Infact isn't Jon going to prove his quilty when he defends Castle Black from the wildling raiding party attack to open the tunnel? Oh never mind, because the writers decided to open another can of worms when they saw fit to have Alliser and Janos show up to Castle Black before the wildling suprise attack took place.

The writers of the show have decided to write themselves into this mess and now they are doing a poor job of writing themselves out of it. The "butterfly effect" that is taking place, I've got say, is a very nice sight to see though :)

And in the book, about 30 crippled or young men were able to defend the Wall against Mance Rayder's Army. Mance knows that even a few men can defend against thousands of foes; if he thinks that there are 1,000 men, he's going to wait until he's sure he has an advantage by coming up with different plans of attack, which gives the NW time to plead for help from the rest of Westeros and fortify their defenses. If he knows that there's only about 100, he will strike sooner and that gives them less time.

The writers of the show know what they are doing.