Wow, I never noticed that v.5

[Khal Shaggydog]

And if Nymeria was dead in KL, we would have a lot more raping and pillaging soldiers running amok in the Riverlands, even more than now.

Nymeria's Wolfpack without Banners is like an ideologically pure version of the BWB - I don't think they are described as ravaging any sedentary villages, but they only kill and eat the marauding soldiers that are everywhere.

[HexMachina]

Tywin was courting Walder Frey very early on, shortly after he took Harrenhal...

Arya VII, Clash

I.dont see what you mean here. They were treated in a typical way for highbirn captives then they were ransomed

ETA: Khal Shaggydog, Nymeria's wolfpack is said to eat babies so..

[Khal Shaggydog]

I.dont see what you mean here. They were treated in a typical way for highbirn captives then they were ransomed

ETA: Khal Shaggydog, Nymeria's wolfpack is said to eat babies so..

I dont recall that - who claimed that?

I also think the Frey's ransoming their own from Tywin does indicate the beginnings of some dealings between Walder and Tywin. At the very least, its an ice-breaker for a deal to be made, and also a way to pass a secure message to Tywin, and back to Walder, that could not be intercepted by raven or anything else.

[HexMachina]

I dont recall that - who claimed that?

I also think the Frey's ransoming their own from Tywin does indicate the beginnings of some dealings between Walder and Tywin. At the very least, its an ice-breaker for a deal to be made, and also a way to pass a secure message to Tywin, and back to Walder, that could not be intercepted by raven or anything else.

But knights are ransomed all of the time, its the whole purpose of capturing them rather than killing them.

I'll look for the quote now and edit it in, as my desktop app is updating atm

This one isn't about children, but the pack are ravaging the livelihood of the smallfolk:

It’s been a bad year for wolves,” volunteered a sallow man in a travel-stained green cloak. “Around the Gods Eye, the packs have grown bolder’n anyone can remember. Sheep, cows, dogs, makes no matter, they kill as they like, and they got no fear of men. It’s worth your life to go into those woods by night.

And the baby quote:

I heard how this hellbitch walked into a village one day … a market day, people everywhere, and she walks in bold as you please and tears a baby from his mother’s arms. When the tale reached Lord Mooton, him and his sons swore they’d put an end to her. They tracked her to her lair with a pack of wolfhounds, and barely escaped with their skins. Not one of those dogs came back, not one.”

[Khal Shaggydog]

So in reality they are more like the BWB as time goes on - predatory as hell, dangerous to be around, pretty much completely unhinged.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I.dont see what you mean here. They were treated in a typical way for highbirn captives then they were ransomed.

It most certainly was not just a typical ransom of captives. Tywin was offering different terms to different houses...

No one ransomed the northmen, though.

Arya VII, Clash

His lordship waited until the table had been cleared before he raised the matter of a letter he had received from Lord Tywin Lannister, who held his elder son, Ser Wylis, taken captive on the Green Fork. "He offers him back to me without ransom, provided I withdraw my levies from His Grace and vow to fight no more."

"You will refuse him, of course," said Ser Rodrik.

"Have no fear on that count," the lord assured them. "King Robb has no more loyal servant than Wyman Manderly. I would be loath to see my son languish at Harrenhal any longer than he must, however. That is an ill place. Cursed, they say. Not that I am the sort to swallow such tales, but still, there it is. Look at what's befallen this Janos Slynt. Raised up to Lord of Harrenhal by the queen, and cast down by her brother. Shipped off to the Wall, they say. I pray some equitable exchange of captives can be arranged before too very long. I know Wylis would not want to sit out the rest of the war. Gallant, that son of mine, and fierce as a mastiff."

Bran II, Clash

[HexMachina]

So in reality they are more like the BWB as time goes on - predatory as hell, dangerous to be around, pretty much completely unhinged.

:agree:

But then what can you expect, she is a wolf, and untrained (certainly less so than even Shaggydog). Its exactly the same as the dragons being wild; Drogon eats a child (or burns her at the least) because its in a Dragons nature, Nymeria eats livestock (and possibly a child too, if the tales are to be believed) because that is her nature.

Imo the "Ice" beasts (Direwolves) and "Fire" beasts (Dragons) are very similar to each other, the difference being that the wolves are much easier to train as they are similar to dogs, and lore on training them is common knowledge. But both are vicious and dangerous

[Lost Melnibonean]

So in reality they are more like the BWB as time goes on - predatory as hell, dangerous to be around, pretty much completely unhinged.

Actually the baby quote comes from the second Arya chapter in Clash.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

RE: the baby quote (Nymeria's eating habits)

That sounds more like one of those stories that springs up with no actual basis in fact. A Westerosi urban (rural?) legend.

Now for mine:

Wow I never noticed that...

MMD's comment about when Dany's womb quickens and she bares a living child had nothing to do with fertility issues. MMD expected Drogo's khalasar to drag Daenerys back to Vaes Dothrak and leave her there to spend her life as one of the widows. Can't remember for sure but it sounded like once you go there you're stuck and life is over. No remarriage, no children. Retirement home for khaleesis.

[Unlady B]

I'm trying to remember carefully and I think I never noticed that Maynard Plumm was BloodRaven while I was reading...

I think it was one of the things that you absorb in these forums, and just forget you didn't know already.

[The Dames do Moan]

In Jon Snow's 1st Chapter, (AGOT Chapter 5) - he is speaking with Tyrion outside the Feast at Winterfell.

Tyrion is talking to Jon about how he was lucky to be born into a rich family

"Had I been born a peasant, they might have left me out to die, or sold me to some slaver's grotesquerie."

[Lost Melnibonean]

Compare this

I've brought you a peach, Ser Jorah said, kneeling. It was so small she could almost hide it in her palm, and overripe too, but when she took the first bite, the flesh was so sweet she almost cried. She ate it slowly, savoring every mouthful, while Ser Jorah told her of the tree it had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.

Daenerys I, Clash

To this

Renlys hand slid inside his cloak. Stannis saw, and reached at once for the hilt of his sword, but before he could draw steel his brother produced . . . a peach. Would you like one, brother? Renly asked, smiling. From Highgarden. You've never tasted anything so sweet, I promise you. He took a bite. juice ran from the corner of his mouth.

A man should never refuse to taste a peach, Renly said as he tossed the stone away. He may never get the chance again. Life is short, Stannis. Remember what the Starks say. Winter is coming. He wiped his mouth with the back of his hand.

Catelyn III, Clash

The first few times I read Clash, I had always assumed Renlys peach was Loras with a double entendre alluding to the power of Highgarden and the Reach. But then I saw this

The peach represents... Well... Its pleasure. Its tasting the juices of life. Stannis is a very marshal man concerned with his duty, and with that peach Renly says: Smell the roses, because Stannis is always concerned with his duty and honor, in what he should be doing and he never really stops to taste the fruit. Renly wants him to taste the fruit but its lost.

Peach (Renlys), A Wiki of Ice and Fire

Now consider this after shes left alone after arriving at Xaros palace

When all the men had gone, her handmaids stripped off the travel-stained silks she wore, and Dany padded out to where the marble pool sat in the shade of a portico. The water was deliciously cool, and the pool was stocked with tiny golden fish that nibbled curiously at her skin and made her giggle. It felt good to close her eyes and float, knowing she could rest as long as she liked. She wondered whether Aegon's Red Keep had a pool like this, and fragrant gardens full of lavender and mint. It must, surely. Viserys always said the Seven Kingdoms were more beautiful than any other place in the world.

The thought of home disquieted her. If her sun-and-stars had lived, he would have led his khalasar across the poison water and swept away her enemies, but his strength had left the world. Her bloodriders remained, sworn to her for life and skilled in slaughter, but only in the ways of the horselords. The Dothraki sacked cities and plundered kingdoms, they did not rule them. Dany had no wish to reduce King's Landing to a blackened ruin full of unquiet ghosts. She had supped enough on tears. I want to make my kingdom beautiful, to fill it with fat men and pretty maids and laughing children. I want my people to smile when they see me ride by, the way Viserys said they smiled for my father.

But before she could do that she must conquer.

The Usurper will kill you, sure as sunrise, Mormont had said. Robert had slain her gallant brother Rhaegar, and one of his creatures had crossed the Dothraki sea to poison her and her unborn son. They said Robert Baratheon was strong as a bull and fearless in battle, a man who loved nothing better than war. And with him stood the great lords her brother had named the Usurper's dogs, cold-eyed Eddard Stark with his frozen heart, and the golden Lannisters, father and son, so rich, so powerful, so treacherous.

How could she hope to overthrow such men? When Khal Drogo had lived, men trembled and made him gifts to stay his wrath. If they did not, he took their cities, wealth and wives and all. But his khalasar had been vast, while hers was meager. Her people had followed her across the red waste as she chased her comet, and would follow her across the poison water too, but they would not be enough. Even her dragons might not be enough. Viserys had believed that the realm would rise for its rightful king . . . but Viserys had been a fool, and fools believe in foolish things.

Her doubts made her shiver. Suddenly the water felt cold to her, and the little fish prickling at her skin annoying. Dany stood and climbed from the pool.

Daenerys II, Clash

And finally this

Khaleesi, the Seven Kingdoms are not going to fall into your hands like so many ripe peaches.

Daenerys II, Clash

[Greymoon]

Yesterday I realised Rickon was the first to warg into his direwolf.

In Tyrion's aGoT chapter where he makes a stop at Winterfell after his trip to the Wall, he presents the saddle design in the Great Hall. Suddenly the gate bursts open and Rickon runs inside followed by the direwolves. The next scene is very interesting. Summer and Grey Wind approach Tyrion from both sides growling, Shaggydog attacks. When Bran calls Rickon's name, he remebers himself and calls Shaggy back. After that both Bran and Rob are confused and clueless about what happened.

I really think Rickon attacked Tyrion, because the last time he was at Winterfell something bad happened.

And is Shaggydog acting like a pack leader?

Actually, some evidence points to Jon Snow being the first to have a connection to his direwolf -- Ghost is mute, yet Jon hears him (just after they find the pups).

Jon is the only one in the party "hearing" Ghost. It could probably be argued that other forces were at play (Bloodraven? Bran in a weird time loop?) but in any case, in matters of connections, Ghost/Jon started pretty early in the books; though it certainly didn't develop as far and quick as Bran's connection to Summer.

(nor as fast as Arya's abilities -- though I suspect that has a lot to do with her training and blindness; even her youth – the older the children, the more they are like to be wary of the "gift" >> skinchangers are viewed pretty badly south of the wall.)

We don't know how much Rickon controls the gift, but it's just as likely that the wolf has the upper hand with Rickon. He's very young...too young, (5 in a DawD?) and a direwolf is no pet to be tamed...

In the Varamyr prologue, Varamyr thinks about the relationship of a skinchanger and his animal. Wolves have a stronger consciousness than a dog; they are more willful, and less inclined to submit to the human will >> being a warg (a term that seems to refer explicitly to a human/wolf relationship) is like being bound in a "marriage for life" = it's a partnership; a two way relationship.

Shaggy has always seemed the "wildest" of the direwolves, the question here to me is >> does Shaggy act out on his own; does he perhaps influence Rickon’s emotion? or does Rickon control/influence Shaggy? I think the former is likeliest. Even Bran admits that it is difficult not to lose oneself; and Jon too is at times confused about his feelings (because they are not his own; but belong to Ghost.)

ETA: spelling

[Greymoon]

Also, as a fan of the R+L=J theory, I realized that there's this great symmetry with Jon and Mance's son. He basically sets up this big lie where the kid will grow up thinking he's a bastard (Sam's) because his true identity as a "prince" would be deadly for him. I enjoyed that.

There's more to it even.

• Mance playing music (like Rhaegar)

when Jon meets Mance, the song Mance plays is the Dornishman's wife IIRC, (evidence point toward Jon being born in Dorne; and it's a song about adultery; that when added to the tale of Bael the Bard kind of tells the whole sorry story of R+L ;) both are mentioned in the same Jon chapter.)

the black cloak + red silk that Mance wears (Targ colors);

Dalla dying of childbirth;

her son being born while a battle is going on (an approximate fit.),

Dalla is being watched over by a sworn brother (though Jon wears a black cloak, not white);

the battle in itself, where Mance (the Rhaegar parallel) looses to Stannis (a Baratheon brother).

Mance's son being given a Targaryen name (though he is northern >> Jon is (also) a northern name, for a Targ);

being named after a sort of fatherly figure of his "foster father" (Sam/Aemon; Ned/Jon Arryn)...

I wonder if Val is sort of meant to be an Ashara parallel...

ETA: forgot also the Jon/Stannis; Ned/Robert parallel (conflict about the murder of children). Jon seems rather disenchanted by Stannis when he learns that Mel wishes to burn the babe and believes that Stannis means to let her.

[Unlady B]

:thumbsup: Good job, @white wolfpack and @Greymoon!!

I knew Martin liked doing parallels between characters, but never noticed how much Little Monster and Jon had in common!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

WoW, Arianne I:

"Connington was Lord of Griffin’s Roost when Griffin’s Roost was still a lordship worth the having. Prince Rhaegar’s squire, or one of them"

DwD, Tyrion:

"Lord Connington was the prince's dearest friend, was he not?"
Young Griff pushed a lock of blue hair out of his eyes. "They were squires together at King's Landing."

Martin's mistake, Daeron didn't know or certain griffin isn't completely telling the truth.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

WoW, Arianne I:

"Connington was Lord of Grifns Roost when Grifns Roost was still a lordship worth the having. Prince Rhaegars squire, or one of them"

DwD, Tyrion:

"Lord Connington was the prince's dearest friend, was he not?"

Young Griff pushed a lock of blue hair out of his eyes. "They were squires together at King's Landing."

Martin's mistake, Daeron didn't know or certain griffin isn't completely telling the truth.

Daemon messes up there. JonCon and Rhaegar were squires together in KL. Showing how the story of a dead man wasn't that interesting enough to remember until it turned out he was still alive, at which point all that that he can recall half-facts.

When Barristan names Rhaegars squires, he doesn't list JonCon either.

[ladyinblack]

I.dont see what you mean here. They were treated in a typical way for highbirn captives then they were ransomed

ETA: Khal Shaggydog, Nymeria's wolfpack is said to eat babies so..

The smallfolk & Stark enemies spread many outrageous stories about the wolves. Remember the stories the Freys told at court in White Harbor for example sorry I can't copy text on my Nook.

Point is stories were spread orally with free embellishment by each storyteller or bard. The more exciting the better

[ladyinblack]

I dont recall that - who claimed that?

I also think the Frey's ransoming their own from Tywin does indicate the beginnings of some dealings between Walder and Tywin. At the very least, its an ice-breaker for a deal to be made, and also a way to pass a secure message to Tywin, and back to Walder, that could not be intercepted by raven or anything else.

Agree. And Tywin & Roose started communicating soon after

[Lost Melnibonean]

Agree. And Tywin & Roose started communicating soon after

They must have been communicating before that to guarantee the Freys' passage through the hell known as the Riverlands.