[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa X: Cold never bothered her anyway...

[Chebyshov]

Oh, here's an interview with Sophie Turner/reporters defense of Sansa. Many of the things there have been discussed in this forum many times, and some seem to apply only to the books (she did kneel at her wedding in the show).

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Game-Of-Thrones-Defending-Sansa-1081921.aspx

This interview is the tits. Sophie really hits the nail on the head when it comes to interpreting Sansa:

Instead of fighting her captor when the odds were against her, Sansa used the only weapon she had. "Courtesy is a lady's armor," Turner says, quoting A Song of Ice and Fire. Everything Sansa has endured destroyed the idealistic ingénue she once was, but Sansa strategically continued to play the part to assure her survival. She never forgot a 'thank you' or curtsy, even when surrounded by the people who brutally slaughtered her father, mother, brother and unborn niece or nephew.

"That's why she's one of the most intelligent characters on the show I think. She adapts so well and she has this thing where she's probably the greatest actor out of all of them," Turner says. "She deceives with the façade of her former self and that's what's great. She never breaks face of this innocent naïve girl and she's not that."

[Annara Snow]

True, but Robin already speaks of "when we're married", so so far he's certain he'll end up banging her sometime in the future.

They're not going to remain betrothed after Lysa's death, since it's not a part of LF's plan, unless D&D are completely changing that storyline... which would be a bad idea, but you never know with them.

I mean, I'm not one of the people who think so low of them that they would make the completely absurd, mind-bogglingly awful changes that fandom comes up with, such as "Yara will become fArya" :rolleyes: but this is not as bad as that, and I wouldn't put it past them to make moderately awful changes, especially to Sansa's story.

[Colonel Green]

While we don't know precisely what's coming next with Sansa's story, I rather doubt that keeping Sansa engaged to Robin would ever work as a substitution, since that's already been accomplished and Littlefinger would have no reason to kill Robin in that scenario.

[Annara Snow]

While we don't know precisely what's coming next with Sansa's story, I rather doubt that keeping Sansa engaged to Robin would ever work as a substitution, since that's already been accomplished and Littlefinger would have no reason to kill Robin in that scenario.

Which is what I'm saying. I'm just considering the "D&D will make stupid changes just for the sake of it/in order not to have to cast more characters"* possibility. I was under the impression that juanml82 believed it, since he seems to think that Robin and Sansa will still be engaged, which is obviously not the case in the books, because LF has other plans.

*Show!Tyrells are evidence in favor of that...

[Newstar]

I am curious about where the cutoff point will be for Sansa's arc this season. End of Sansa I in AFFC, maybe? That leaves only two Sansa chapters left, both of which could be covered off in one episode apiece. To me, that suggests four options:

1. The writers throw in a non-book plot to kill time (Bran's stint at Craster's)

2. The writers stretch out a thin bit of material over several episodes with lots of non-book fillery conversation scenes (Tyrion and Cersei in Season 3, Arya and the Hound in Season 4)

3. The writers keep to the material but radically cut down on Sansa's screentime (Bran in Season 4, as he only appears in four episodes)

4. Season 5 gets into Sansa's arc in TWOW in a big way

I favour option 4 for obvious reasons, but I just don't know what the writers will do.

[juanml82]

Which is what I'm saying. I'm just considering the "D&D will make stupid changes just for the sake of it/in order not to have to cast more characters"* possibility. I was under the impression that juanml82 believed it, since he seems to think that Robin and Sansa will still be engaged, which is obviously not the case in the books, because LF has other plans.

*Show!Tyrells are evidence in favor of that...

And his plan is:

1. Slowly poison the actual, and manageable, Lord of the Vale (maybe)

Expend a lot of money in purchasing Lady Waynwood's debts

Arrange with Lady Waynwood the betrothal of his bastard daughter to the heir apparent of the Vale. Even if Anya knows she's Sansa (quite a risk to tell her), she'll appear to be betrothing the heir apparent of the Vale to a bastard.

Reveal Sansa Stark at the wedding?

Kill the Lord of the Vale and make it look like disease so Sansa becomes the Lady of the Vale?

Kill the New Lord of the Vale so he can marry Sansa?

Yeah, reducing all that to

1. Sansa continues to be engaged to the spoiled, but able, Lord of the Vale

Reveal Sansa Stark at the wedding?

Kill the Lord of the Vale and make it look like disease so Sansa becomes the Lady of the Vale?

Kill the New Lord of the Vale so he can marry Sansa?

is a stupid change :rolleyes:

What do we loose? The actual character assassination of HtH, a character we've never met?

Sansa's reluctance to political marriages, which didn't appear when Lysa told her she'd get into one and which we don't know which dramatical impact will have?

It's necessary in the books because SR is not fit to be a charismatic leader and, should LF need the Lord of the Vale to get Sansa pregnant soon, SR is not up to the task. But neither of those are true in the books. And we should keep in mind that GRRM original plan might have been to betroth and maybe marry Sansa to SR, since with the five years gap, SR would have been able to consummate the marriage and the relationship between LF, Sansa and SR would have turned creepy and seudo-incestuous in a very ASOIAF way.

[Annara Snow]

What do we loose? The actual character assassination of HtH, a character we've never met?

Sansa's reluctance to political marriages, which didn't appear when Lysa told her she'd get into one and which we don't know which dramatical impact will have?

Well, of course, you're right. It's just one of the most important things to Sansa's character development, but Sansa's character development and characterization in general is so unimportant, we can't have the show waste time on such trifles... :rolleyes:

ETA: re "character assassination" - that expression does not mean what you think it means.

[juanml82]

Well, of course, you're right. It's just one of the most important things to Sansa's character development, but Sansa's character development and characterization in general is so unimportant, we can't have the show waste time on such trifles... :rolleyes:

Sansa's reluctance to marry HtH comes in her last chapter so, without access to the TWOW draft, we can not even know how it will impact her character

development. Even more, the reluctance is to political marriages, not to HtH in particular, so Sansa's reluctance, if the show wants to show it, can very well come into conflict with a betrothal with SR.

[Fey]

I am curious about where the cutoff point will be for Sansa's arc this season. End of Sansa I in AFFC, maybe? That leaves only two Sansa chapters left, both of which could be covered off in one episode apiece. To me, that suggests four options:

1. The writers throw in a non-book plot to kill time (Bran's stint at Craster's)

2. The writers stretch out a thin bit of material over several episodes with lots of non-book fillery conversation scenes (Tyrion and Cersei in Season 3, Arya and the Hound in Season 4)

3. The writers keep to the material but radically cut down on Sansa's screentime (Bran in Season 4, as he only appears in four episodes)

4. Season 5 gets into Sansa's arc in TWOW in a big way

I favour option 4 for obvious reasons, but I just don't know what the writers will do.

Yeah, I'm hoping for 4. If they pushed Sansa's SoS arc up to end in episode 7 of Season 4 only to fill the rest of the season/season 5 with filler scenes or something, I'll be pissed. -__-

[Colonel Green]

What do we loose?

The plot, for one thing. Moreover, there would be no point in killing Robin in this version; in fact, it would be counterproductive, because Sansa wouldn't have any authority in the Vale once he was dead. Thus you lose what would appear to be a major plot catalyst.

And we should keep in mind that GRRM original plan might have been to betroth and maybe marry Sansa to SR

No, it wasn't. He talked about Harry before the gap was abandoned.

[Chebyshov]

The plot, for one thing. Moreover, there would be no point in killing Robin in this version; in fact, it would be counterproductive, because Sansa wouldn't have any authority in the Vale once he was dead. Thus you lose what would appear to be a major plot catalyst.

No, it wasn't. He talked about Harry before the gap was abandoned.

When? I don't remember him coming up in ASOS

[Colonel Green]

When? I don't remember him coming up in ASOS

Not in-text; he mentioned him (and the long-delayed Izembaro, from Arya's story) way back in like 2001. Edit: here.

[Newstar]

Interesting. I wonder when the Harry betrothal would have happened in relation to the five year gap: at the end of it, I guess. Was Sansa supposed to spend five years in the Vale after Lysa's death, and was LF informing Sansa of the marriage contract meant to mark the first events post time skip?

[Chebyshov]

Not in-text; he mentioned him (and the long-delayed Izembaro, from Arya's story) way back in like 2001. Edit: here.

Ah interesting, thanks!

[Newstar]

Hmm...that bit from GRRM seems to imply we will meet Harry in a POV, as opposed to hearing all about him but never meeting him (similar to Willas back in ASOS).

Spoilers for TWOW:

Izembaro turned out to be a minor character, somewhere on the level of the Sailor's Wife, although I suppose that could change. Will Harry, mentioned in the same breath in the email, turn out to be equally minor?

[Colonel Green]

Was Sansa supposed to spend five years in the Vale after Lysa's death, and was LF informing Sansa of the marriage contract meant to mark the first events post time skip?

Considering that Izembaro was meant to appear in Arya's first post-gap chapter, and Sansa's comparatively short story in AFFC basically moved her into the story launch position, I think that's probably what would have happened.

Another reason I expect them to keep the Harry the Heir plot is that they bothered to cast Lady Waynwood. If they were cutting Harry, there's really no need for her. Royce and Corbray are the only ones needed for the Lords Declarant story, specifically, and they certainly haven't cast Templeton, Hunter, Redfort and Belmore, as far as we know.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I think Sansa and Arya will get the Bran treatment next year.

[juanml82]

The plot, for one thing. Moreover, there would be no point in killing Robin in this version; in fact, it would be counterproductive, because Sansa wouldn't have any authority in the Vale once he was dead. Thus you lose what would appear to be a major plot catalyst.

No, it wasn't. He talked about Harry before the gap was abandoned.

Good point about Harry. Regarding SR's death, it depends on how, when and if LF wants him dead:

The first thought are that LF wants to kill SR. But, this is not necessarily the case. He might be convinced he's going to die young and is planning accordingly.

The second thought is that LF wants to kill SR before Sansa's wedding. But that's actually counterproductive to him: If SR dies before Alayne/Sansa gets married to HtH, LF is no longer Lord Protector and Harry the Heir will be the one selecting a regent, if he doesn't want to start ruling himself, despite his age. So it actually benefits LF if SR is alive by the time of the wedding.

And if the last point is truth, then LF will still try to kill SR after the wedding, likely after Sansa gets pregnant. Now, the question is how would the show present the "when SR dies" but the catch is, Show!Robin isn't (so far) a sickly kid, so there is no reason for anyone to believe that he'll die young.

In other words, unless he does something very important, Harry the Heir can be cut from the show with little consequence. Whether they'll do it or not is another matter. After all, Anya Waynwood has been cast.

[Annara Snow]

The plot, for one thing. Moreover, there would be no point in killing Robin in this version; in fact, it would be counterproductive, because Sansa wouldn't have any authority in the Vale once he was dead. Thus you lose what would appear to be a major plot catalyst.

No, it wasn't. He talked about Harry before the gap was abandoned.

And in terms of "the Sansa of it", two major things about LF'S "gift" in the last Alayne chapter are: 1) the fact that his plan to supposedly give her Winterfell depends on the death of an annoying but helpless and sick child who relies on Sansa; and 2) the fact that it involves a political marriage to a handsome young knight/heir, something that Sansa would have been delighted with when we first met her (and that Littlefinger seems to think would still delight her), without even realizing that said prince or knight is a douche; while the present Sansa is both unlikely to be taken by handsome douchey young knights, and sick and tired of being auctioned off for her claim to various political marriages, which is a major theme in ASOS, from her forced marriage to Tyrion to her disillusionment with the Tyrells to her feelings about her aunt telling her she has to marry SR, and leads to her attitude to marriage in AFFC.

One has to be really, really disinterested in Sansa as a character and in her story and development to think that this kind of change would be a good idea in any way.

[The Reader Lisa]

To people who think the "Only Cat" controversy is lame, why make the change to "Your sister" in the first place?

Because the Unsullied won't remember who Cat is? So you have LF or Lysa refer to her that way in preceding

dialogue. A couple of words at most. No expensive sets, costumes, horses or extras necessary. A tiny bit of

writing. And "Your sister" isn't a once-off but the latest in a long list of disappointing rewrites done for the sake

of, well,.....disappointing book fans. I'm sorry, but that's how it seems to me; that they enjoy ruining parts of the

books that people especially love and look forward to seeing brought to life. They remind me of Lucy holding

the football for Charlie Brown. Oh, you like this part, do you? YANK!!!!