[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa X: Cold never bothered her anyway...

[Newstar]

Because it's a consensual love affair, between twins who started doing it as kids with nobody forcing anyone, and who have a strong sexual attraction to each other. I don't see where you found the point of comparison and what you think that proves. There are taboo love affairs in the book, so that means that Sansa may have a "consensual" love affair with Baelish even though she is in no position to refuse him, depends on him for survival, and has no sexual or romantic interest in him?

Your argument's a bit hard to follow, Annara Snow, probably because I keep refuting your points and so you keep changing your argument. But to sum up:

1. Power imbalances, statutory rape, etc. do not negate a consensual love affair in ASOIAF as far as GRRM's concerned (Dany/Drogo)

2. Relationships deliberately written as creepy, unsexy or unromantic or even as containing abusive elements can still be consensual love affairs in ASOIAF as far as GRRM's concerned (Jaime/Cersei, although I could list others)

3. Even though LF and Sansa's relationship has massive power imbalances and creepy and even abusive elements, and even as it's written as unsexy and offputting, GRRM may still write LF/Sansa as a pseudo-consensual love affair in future books.

[Newstar]

The Alayne chapters do the exact opposite of that. I'm at a loss where you saw anything consensual there on Sansa's part, or any sign of even a remotest sexual or romantic interest from her.

Not the thread for it, but it's been amply discussed elsewhere.

[Annara Snow]

Not the thread for it, but it's been amply discussed elsewhere.

Yes, it has, and no one has managed to come up with a plausible scenario in which Sansa would be having a sexual relationship with LF that could be considered consensual. I still remember the desperate attempts and convoluted scenarios of one of the posters from this thread.

[Dreams and Prophecies]

Someone over at reddit had an interesting idea that the "truth" Sansa tells in the preview for the next episode is that she really is the bastard daughter of Baelish instead of niece.

Most probably won't happen, but still interesting to consider.

[Chebyshov]

Someone over at reddit had an interesting idea that the "truth" Sansa tells in the preview for the next episode is that she really is the bastard daughter of Baelish instead of niece.

Most probably won't happen, but still interesting to consider.

Oh I like that--anything that brings us closer to the source material.

[ugashep]

Legally rape generally involves the penetration of a bodily orifice by violence or threat of violence. It also can be rape where consent is obtained through deception (for example by impersonating one's spouse). Rape as a result of the nature of the relationship is most often a prohibition related to age like the statutory rape concept we have in the U.S. There does not appear to be a statutory rape in Westeros so its hard to are how that could apply. Even using the common U.S. definition of rape it seems pretty foolish to argue that GRRM has laid no groundwork whatsoever for non-rape sex to even have the possibility to occur between LF and Sansa.

[mormont]

[mod] Knock off the personal bickering, please. [/mod]

[Another Locust]

By the way, there was an announcement about 'discussing rape' and this topic may hang soon. (Maybe)

Just to conclude this argument thoroughly and to understand what personal bickering is, I will apply the 'consensual' relationship with Sansa and LF to the show.

In other words, no. No, no no no no. Although I wouldn't put it past D&D to make Sansa and LF have a romantic affair, GRRM will probably not write that. I'm sure we all know why, I dearly hope. What does this mean for Show!Sansa? I cannot say. I can only predict and speculate on this matter. I don't think it's going to be sunshine and bunnies however, and it will most likely result in the death of a character. LF, Robin, or both LF and Robin. They both are irritating, one slightly more than the other.

I also don't think that Sansa is going to tell the 'truth' about LF in the next episode, because it seems quite early for this to happen. The question to ask is, who the hell was she talking to? Mayhaps I should watch it again...

[Colonel Green]

The question to ask is, who the hell was she talking to? Mayhaps I should watch it again...

It's the Vale lords.

[Grail King]

I gotta say it looked like Sansa enjoyed that kiss.

I took it different when he answered what do we do to those who kill the ones we love, I think her smile outside is hiding in her mind I know what you want sucker.

[Annara Snow]

Legally rape generally involves the penetration of a bodily orifice by violence or threat of violence. It also can be rape where consent is obtained through deception (for example by impersonating one's spouse). Rape as a result of the nature of the relationship is most often a prohibition related to age like the statutory rape concept we have in the U.S. There does not appear to be a statutory rape in Westeros so its hard to are how that could apply. Even using the common U.S. definition of rape it seems pretty foolish to argue that GRRM has laid no groundwork whatsoever for non-rape sex to even have the possibility to occur between LF and Sansa.

Jesus, I'm not from USA but really hope that this is not the legal definition in many US states, because that sounds horribly outdated. I'll try not to discuss rape much, but I have to say I'd find it really disturbing if people thought that a person has to be penetrated to be raped (fits with "men can't be raped if they have an erection") and if it sex obtained through coercion, threats (unless it's direct violence), abuse of authority, including that of a family member over a child, master over slave (including sex trafficking), husband over a child bride, kidnapper over hostage, or temporary or permanent incapacity of a person (including being unconscious) would be considered "consensual", if the victim isn't screaming and fighting.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I think Petyr will tell Sansa that if she doesn't cooperate, he will tell the lords that Sansa killed Lysa

[Fey]

Someone over at reddit had an interesting idea that the "truth" Sansa tells in the preview for the next episode is that she really is the bastard daughter of Baelish instead of niece.

Most probably won't happen, but still interesting to consider.

I actually wouldn't mind that. It would make the preview all the more troll-y.

My initial thought was that it might be like LF gives a version of Lysa's death where it comes off as a tragic accident or something where he's at fault/Lysa's not at fault, and then Sansa says that the "truth" is LF's in denial and Lysa went psycho and committed suicide or something, so everyone thinks that LF was in deeply love with Lysa and suspicion on him decreases.

[Colonel Green]

I think Petyr will tell Sansa that if she doesn't cooperate, he will tell the lords that Sansa killed Lysa

On the show that really wouldn't be necessary. Sansa's main qualm about covering up Lysa's death in the book was framing Marillion for it, but Marillion doesn't exist, so that's not an issue. She also didn't hear anything about them killing Jon Arryn, so she has much less reason not to trust him, even if he's still creepy.

[Annara Snow]

I gotta say it looked like Sansa enjoyed that kiss.

Goes to show awful TV and movies still tend to be in showing female desire, when scenes in which females are passive and emotionless while guys are kissing them but don't push them away after a second are taken by some of the viewers as romantic kisses that they're enjoying, when we don't have the POV in a book where the character is thinking something like "WTF is this now... ugh, awkward... and his lips are tasting of [insert random taste]." The way people reacted to the Gale/Katniss kiss in Catching Fire also comes to mind.

[Another Locust]

It's the Vale lords.

I figured. My god they aren't wasting any time at least.

[Colonel Green]

I figured. My god they aren't wasting any time at least.

Next episode will clearly cover the substance of AFFC Sansa I, and at least some of the content of AFFC Alayne I, though not necessarily the whole thing.

[Another Locust]

Next episode will clearly cover the substance of AFFC Sansa I, and at least some of the content of AFFC Alayne I, though not necessarily the whole thing.

The biggest concern I have is that Sansa's TWoW arc is going to be spoiled in season 5, well before the earliest possible completion date of the book.

[Asha's Suckling Babe]

In other words, no. No, no no no no. Although I wouldn't put it past D&D to make Sansa and LF have a romantic affair, GRRM will probably not write that. I'm sure we all know why, I dearly hope. What does this mean for Show!Sansa? I cannot say. I can only predict and speculate on this matter. I don't think it's going to be sunshine and bunnies however, and it will most likely result in the death of a character. LF, Robin, or both LF and Robin. They both are irritating, one slightly more than the other.

I have to agree with this. Already with Shae they made it look like she was in love with him (and cared about Sansa) only to completely ignore that and go back to book canon when needed. I'm afraid that they might do something similar here.They clearly want to add sappy illogical romance everywhere in the series, ugh.

[Annara Snow]

I actually wouldn't mind that. It would make the preview all the more troll-y.

My initial thought was that it might be like LF gives a version of Lysa's death where it comes off as a tragic accident or something where he's at fault/Lysa's not at fault, and then Sansa says that the "truth" is LF's in denial and Lysa went psycho and committed suicide or something, so everyone thinks that LF was in deeply love with Lysa and suspicion on him decreases.

That's what I'm expecting, too. The trailers are deliberately misleading, as usual.

On the show that really wouldn't be necessary. Sansa's main qualm about covering up Lysa's death in the book was framing Marillion for it, but Marillion doesn't exist, so that's not an issue. She also didn't hear anything about them killing Jon Arryn, so she has much less reason not to trust him, even if he's still creepy.

Well, she has no reason not to trust that he wouldn't send her to Cersei, so she knows that he, at least, will try to keep her alive, because his interest in/agendas with her are different. That's what it all comes down to - it's not that she trusts him that much in the books, but she doesn't have anyone else she can trust.