[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa X: Cold never bothered her anyway...

[Newstar]

Given the crazy amount they've streamlined Sansa's story, I predict they're going to cut out Harry the Heir.

I'm getting kind of excited about the speed of Sansa's storyline in Season 4, because I hope that it means that Sansa's storyline blows up post-ADWD into something really huge, and that they're flying through Sansa's ASOS/AFFC material to give themselves as much space possible in the show to cover it (bearing in mind that D&D have been batting around the seven seasons number for a while). However, it could just be that the writers are whipping through Sansa's remaining published chapters for some other reason, or that they're planning some Qarth-type filler arc. I know a lot of fans were really excited about Sansa going off on her own arc in the Vale and no longer being a glorified prop for Lannister-centric scenes, but their patience has been rewarded with the show tearing through Sansa's chapters at warp speed.

As for Harry the Heir, I could see them eliminating him entirely for economy. We still don't know how important he is in the books--red herring? Sansa's endgame husband?--but really, even if he is important in the books in some way, D&D might still write him out regardless. GRRM warned D&D against writing out Willas and Garlan because of their importance in future books, and D&D went ahead and did it anyway.

The young actor is 13 now; and, listening to him, I felt he was struggling to keep his voice childish. He's definitely too old for TV-Sansa to be his mother-substitute; and the dialogue reflects that when the boy promises to make her enemies "fly" when they're married.

Yes and yes. I dunno. I should have seen this coming, as Sweetrobin's actor was not all that young even in Season 1, and that was filmed back in 2010, but eliminating the mother/son angle to Sansa and Sweetrobin's relationship really diminishes it. No shade on Sweetrobin's actor--he's fine except for his age--but they really should have recast with someone younger for Sweetrobin's return in Season 4.

[Alayne Stone]

Joffrey, when kissing Sansa in Season 1, although Joffrey doesn't grip her head the whole time with both hands. Going back, the scene was shot similarly to Petyr and Sansa's kiss--shot from the side with Sansa on the left--as well. An intentional callback? It's the only other kiss Sansa's had in the series.

I love this analysis. The girl, inexperienced as she is, is very good at going along and sussing out the situation caused by men in politically and physically dominating situations.

[Alayne Stone]

I'm getting kind of excited about the speed of Sansa's storyline in Season 4, because I hope that it means that Sansa's storyline blows up post-ADWD into something really huge, and that they're flying through Sansa's ASOS/AFFC material to give themselves as much space possible in the show to cover it (bearing in mind that D&D have been batting around the seven seasons number for a while). However, it could just be that the writers are whipping through Sansa's remaining published chapters for some other reason, or that they're planning some Qarth-type filler arc. I know a lot of fans were really excited about Sansa going off on her own arc in the Vale and no longer being a glorified prop for Lannister-centric scenes, but their patience has been rewarded with the show tearing through Sansa's chapters at warp speed.

As for Harry the Heir, I could see them eliminating him entirely for economy. We still don't know how important he is in the books--red herring? Sansa's endgame husband?--but really, even if he is important in the books in some way, D&D might still write him out regardless. GRRM warned D&D against writing out Willas and Garlan because of their importance in future books, and D&D went ahead and did it anyway.

I'm sensing that many of us have the same quiet unease that maybe they don't get her arc. Especially with wildly popular leads driving viewership and clicks.

[Newstar]

I'm sensing that many of us have the same quiet unease that maybe they don't get her arc. Especially with wildly popular leads driving viewership and clicks.

To be fair, even though compared to previous seasons Season 4 seems packed with seemingly meaningful references and what looks like possible foreshadowing--White Walker baby scene, Melisandre's insistence on Shireen being brought along, Jojen's vision of his burning hand--it's hard to tell how much of it is driven by D&D's knowledge of future books and how much is just showrunner fuckery with no broader implications other than reflecting their own preferences. Is Stannis being downplayed in the show because D&D have some special knowledge that he's not all that important in the end result and won't live past TWOW, or do they just not care for the character and therefore can't be bothered to give him much attention? The same goes for Sansa. Are the showrunners burning through her ASOS/AFFC chapters because they know something truly epic and huge is coming up for her and they can't wait to get to it, or do they just not give a shit?

The other part of the equation is that while D&D might not "get" her arc, they at least know where it's going. I would like to think that that will inform the way that they write Sansa now, and that we can parse the way these big Sansa scenes are written for clues, but, well, they knew exactly where Shae's arc was going, too. They could just take her way off-book and then just "course correct" at the last possible moment to get her back in line with her book characterization/storyline (much like Shae had this loving, sisterly bond with Sansa but nonetheless sold her out at the trial just as she did in the books)...and we wouldn't know the difference unless post-ADWD books were released by that point.

[voodooqueen126]

To be fair, even though compared to previous seasons Season 4 seems packed with seemingly meaningful references and what looks like possible foreshadowing--White Walker baby scene, Melisandre's insistence on Shireen being brought along, Jojen's vision of his burning hand--it's hard to tell how much of it is driven by D&D's knowledge of future books and how much is just showrunner fuckery with no broader implications other than reflecting their own preferences. Is Stannis being downplayed in the show because D&D have some special knowledge that he's not all that important in the end result and won't live past TWOW, or do they just not care for the character and therefore can't be bothered to give him much attention? The same goes for Sansa. Are the showrunners burning through her ASOS/AFFC chapters because they know something truly epic and huge is coming up for her and they can't wait to get to it, or do they just not give a shit?

The other part of the equation is that while D&D might not "get" her arc, they at least know where it's going. I would like to think that that will inform the way that they write Sansa now, and that we can parse the way these big Sansa scenes are written for clues, but, well, they knew exactly where Shae's arc was going, too. They could just take her way off-book and then just "course correct" at the last possible moment to get her back in line with her book characterization/storyline (much like Shae had this loving, sisterly bond with Sansa but nonetheless sold her out at the trial just as she did in the books)...and we wouldn't know the difference unless post-ADWD books were released by that point.

I tend to agree, that D& D don't get her arc. She is just not badass enough. She is too much like all the other girls.

[juanml82]

I truly believe that Sansa is one of the characters the show creators and writers don't understand too well and don't really want to use more than they have to. (Stannis and Brienne are others, and there are more I could name) The snow castle scene was nice, Sophie Turner as Sansa looked beautiful, but there was very little of the deep emotions she experienced in the book, and the kiss does not seem as unwelcome as it truly was.

Well, we read the books. D&D read the books and talk with the authors. So I think they understand every character. They also understand they can't have successful TV show by trying to make carbon copies of the book characters. For instance, they didn't write Shae the way they did because they didn't understand her. GRRM could have shared all his opinions, backstories, notes and everything that doesn't make it to the final material. They felt that (re)creating her the way they did made for a better show.

I agree that there was very little of the emotions portrayed in the books. Either they didn't care (which isn't the same as not understanding the character), they chickened out or they felt it didn't made for good TV. Personally, I'm inclined to believe in the second one. D&D really, really, struggle with the characters internal emotions and conflicts. More often than not, those things are shown because the directors and the actors pull it off, but not because the show was designed to pull it off.

As for the kiss "not seeming as unwelcome as it truly was" I'd be very careful with those assertions. Show!Sansa and Book!Sansa are different characters and the dynamic between Sansa and Baelish is different in the books and the show. The end game should be similar and D&D might go along the same path, maybe with some simplifications, or they might want to reach it through a separate path. Whether that feels organic and natural or it feels like a retcon is something we'll see when the show reaches that point in the narrative.

And I'll also be really wary of pretending to understand a character better than the guys who had a lot of chats with the book's author (or the author himself). I think many Sansa fans will be in for a nasty surprise when TWOW is finally published, and Show!Sansa's reactions to Robin's idea of installing a Moon Door at Winterfell and LF's phrase about "what do we do to those who hurt the ones we love" "foreshadow" a lot more of even Book!Sansa's future than obscure references in the books which can be completely unintentional.

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

I'm getting kind of excited about the speed of Sansa's storyline in Season 4, because I hope that it means that Sansa's storyline blows up post-ADWD into something really huge, and that they're flying through Sansa's ASOS/AFFC material to give themselves as much space possible in the show to cover it (bearing in mind that D&D have been batting around the seven seasons number for a while).

My sentiments/assumptions down to the T! I'm assuming she's incredibly important in the future, which is why they're rushing her storyline; because they need to get to that stuff quicker. And I think this because of the fact that not only will we potentially end the season having gone through all of her written chapters, but also, because her personality is different. She's much more forceful with Petyr and they've alluded to her "newfound" desire for vengeance and potential for killing (i.e. "She's not a killer...yet). I honestly think they're jumping right into who she ends up becoming---without taking the scenic route of the book. And if they're doing that, its got to be for a reason other then "they don't understand her character".

Also, I don't think Aiden or Sophie were "trolling" in all of these interviews. When Aiden talks about becoming partners with her and that her personality surprises him, I'm starting to think that wasn't wishful thinking, faint praise, or anything else. I think he's speaking from a place of knowing exactly what the hell's about to happen. Same with Sophie. When she says off the wall stuff that isn't happening right now (either in the show or books); or when she goes off on a tangent rage about being frustrated that people don't root for a feminine character with intelligence...I'm inclined to think she too is speaking from a place of knowing what's about to happen rather then what's happened up to this point.

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if they flip the script and have Sansa tell Petyr HER plans. So, she saves his ass in this next episode and then in the finale she says something to the effect of, "I want Winterfell back. How do we do that?" And then hell, he'll say something to the effect of, 'Why stop at Winterfell when you can have the world," (i.e. "The world will be yours") and there you go! Partners in crime! (A scenario that would also make Aiden's comment about "not playing this relationship creepy", ring true).

No matter how you slice and dice it though, I'm incredibly excited that they're rushing through her material because I'm more than a little intrigued about where her story will eventually end up.

[Eponine]

I truly believe that Sansa is one of the characters the show creators and writers don't understand too well and don't really want to use more than they have to. (Stannis and Brienne are others, and there are more I could name) The snow castle scene was nice, Sophie Turner as Sansa looked beautiful, but there was very little of the deep emotions she experienced in the book, and the kiss does not seem as unwelcome as it truly was.

I agree, but it's a somewhat inevitable issue of aging the character up. In the ASOS appendix, she is 12. While I do think it's a little too hard to imagine the book Stark kids as young as they were described (and George has said that given the direction the narrative took, the youngest characters should have been introduced as a little older), a lot of things about Sansa make more sense for a girl who has just begun puberty in book 2.

It's easy for me to imagine a 12-14 year old building a snow castle, losing her temper when a little brat tears it down, but also feeling the obligation to be nurturing in the way where an older sibling has to take the role of a surrogate parent before she's really equipped to do so, and having a young teenager's mix of curiosity and repulsion of being kissed, both despite and because of not having a complete understanding of everything sex entails. When I see someone who looks like a young adult playing in the snow, slapping a child, and kissing a man, I have to actively tear down my assumption in the back of my thoughts that because she looks like a young adult, she has the knowledge and experience of a young adult. And by Westeros standards, there wouldn't be anything particularly ick about a man Littlefinger's age pursuing a 17 year old. Show Sansa would be an appropriate age to be getting married and running her own household. So on one hand, it's important to the character to have kept her in a state of relative naivety and innocence, but OTOH, if it's played up too much, it leaves the older looking character seeming not just naive but developmentally challenged and impossibly out of touch with reality, to give her the mindset of a 12 year old. So she's stuck in maturity limbo.

[voodooqueen126]

I have no problem with Sansa wanting justice for the people she loved. I think this is normal and natural. I also think if we forgive evil people, and let them run around, they will cause suffering to even more people. Justice is good and good people seek justice.

I am actually surprised by book Sansa's lack of rancor towards the Lannisters.

[Alayne Stone]

Well, we read the books. D&D read the books and talk with the authors. So I think they understand every character. They also understand they can't have successful TV show by trying to make carbon copies of the book characters. For instance, they didn't write Shae the way they did because they didn't understand her. GRRM could have shared all his opinions, backstories, notes and everything that doesn't make it to the final material. They felt that (re)creating her the way they did made for a better show.

I'm willing to concede they understand her if that means they just didn't like her very much. Outcome is the same. My opinion is based mostly on three things: Sansa's blistering rebuke of the Septa in season 1 ("Oh, I forgot. I don't care."); the emmense popularity of Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Bronn, Oberyn, Arya, Jamie and any other character whose plots tend to get more threads and comments than a Sansa one; and the missing seven minutes at the end of last night's episode.

[Alayne Stone]

Random tangent: how far ahead do the actors get the scripts? I know Sophie's read the books. I remember reading that Aiden hasn't. It may not be trolling so much as utter innocence.

[Newstar]

I'm willing to concede they understand her if that means they just didn't like her very much.

Eh, if they didn't like her, they would have included the most unflattering book Sansa scenes: Sansa going to Cersei in AGOT, Sansa telling Arya she should have died instead of Lady, etc. etc. They would not have included a scene where Joffrey apologizes to Sansa and promises to mend his ways, explaining why she trusts him again after his previous behaviour. They would have continued showing Sansa being rude and haughty with Shae throughout their relationship, instead of developing the sweet, sisterly bond that they did. They would have played up Sansa's hostility and iciness towards beloved hero Tyrion and her disgust at his dwarfism. They did not do any of these things. It would have been very easy for them to destroy viewer sympathy for TV Sansa simply by being faithful to the books, but the TV writers deliberately softened Sansa's actions and scrubbed her more controversial actions from the adaptation, something they wouldn't have bothered doing if they didn't like the character.

the emmense popularity of Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Bronn, Oberyn, Arya, Jamie and any other character whose plots tend to get more threads and comments than a Sansa one

It would be one thing if Sansa were the most popular character among the book reader fandom and was reviled by the TV viewer fandom, but that's hardly the case. If anything, Sansa is even less popular among book readers on average than show viewers, and that's thanks largely to things which didn't make it into the show, like Sansa going to Cersei in AGOT. If the adaptation were more faithful, I imagine TV Sansa would be even less popular than she currently is among TV viewers. Even if, however, the fandom in general isn't all that enamoured of Sansa, that doesn't mean that the TV writers necessarily feel the same way. Didn't Bryan Cogman say that Sansa's the character he most wants to give a hug?

All that's not to say that the writers like Sansa as much as Tyrion or Arya, because that's clearly not the case, or even that they necessarily care that much about her storyline, because they haven't seemed all that invested in her except in relation to the Lannisters (who do clearly interest the writers quite a bit), but I'm not seeing any evidence of dislike.

And really, so what if they don't like Sansa as much as Tyrion or Arya? GRRM vastly prefers Tyrion and Arya to Sansa, and it shows. If GRRM's entitled to that opinion, then surely the ones adapting his books are as well.

[Colonel Green]

They would not have included a scene where Joffrey apologizes to Sansa and promises to mend his ways, explaining why she trusts him again after his previous behaviour.

That scene is basically a replacement for Joffrey being nicer to Sansa in the tourney sequence, which they cut.

As far as whether this or that is foreshadowing, there's certainly foreshadowing suggestive of future plot points this season, which are usually underlined, but things like how the kiss was shot don't fall into that category for me (particularly in a season that brought us the huge writing/directing screwup with Jaime/Cersei). The show doesn't really make characterization foreshadowing on that subtle a level.

[1234567]

I do wish they had not cut so much of Sansa's arc (or Lysa's back story). They had the Crasters filler yet seem to rush every scene Sophie is in (like the deleted scene from season 2 where Sophie and Rory spend a minute and a half almost tripping over their lines to get them out, followed by a minute and a half shot of a sad looking Tyrion.)

I hope not, but I suspect next season may include a Sansa filler storyline to some degree like Dany had in Season 2. They do seem to be increasingly replacing source scenes with their own invented ones.

Like Stannis, Sansa seems to be a character they are not really interested in to the same extent as others.

Well, we read the books. D&D read the books and talk with the authors. So I think they understand every character. They also understand they can't have successful TV show by trying to make carbon copies of the book characters. For instance, they didn't write Shae the way they did because they didn't understand her. /quote]

Cat Stark and the awful addition of Talisa would tend to refute that. Also Shae suddenly turning on Tyrion at the trial has confused a lot of unsullied because it is so against the characterisation they have done with her.

While they may talk to the author that doesn't preclude the "wouldn't it be cool if" aspect of deviation or the dude bro nature of the producers. The addition of the Pod brothel scene or the babies in jars at Dragonstone for example. Indeed when you have guest directors weirded out by a producer demanding random naked women in a scene to appeal to the pervert side of the audience, that does not suggest character understanding as much as a guy who has never mentally matured beyond 15.

They are doing what they think will be cool in the adaptation of the books, but that doesn't mean that it is the definitive way to do things or they are getting the right idea across to the viewer ( such as the Jaime raping Cersei scene that they thought they portrayed as consensual).

Some filler they do well; the Brienne/Pod/Hotpie scene was lovely and very much in the spirit of the relationship between the two in the books. However other filler, does not work well.

[Pod The Impaler]

Sophie Turner is not just tall but full-bodied as well. There's something amazonian (you mad OP? lol) about her. Why didn't she just pick up Aunt Lysa and slam dunk her through the moon door. :lol:

Crazy people are stronger than they seem.

LOL I always get a kick out of this forum. I've read the books multiple times, and have been a faithful watcher of the show from the beginning, and I just don't get the incredible butthurt over this scene. It seems that every single episode there is some irrelevant bit that they change that all the fans just completely lose their shit over. "OMG HE DIDN'T SAY ONLY CAT!!" So what? Good lord.

And one of you actually mentioned that this scene, this ONE SCENE, is the only thing that in your opinion makes the entire series worthwhile. I just don't get it. Here are the fundamentals of what is by all accounts a fairly standard GRRM murder scene:

1. Sansa stands in snow

2. Sansa builds Winterfell

3. Robin wrecks it

4. Littlefinger helps her rebuild it

5. They kiss

6. Lysa sees the kiss, goes apeshit

7. Littlefinger pushes her out the moon door, blames it on fop

I've read these books so many times and this particular scene never struck me as any kind of lynchpin. I mean there are so many massive scenes that they altered or just didn't do at all, that to fixate on this one strikes me as almost pathological.

Most of the components are there, but I think if anything was a lynchpin in that scene in the books, it was Lysa revealing her secrets to Sansa (not the audience) - she murdered her husband and blamed the Lannisters, she kept the Vale out of the resulting war because she actually hated Catelyn over the whole Petyr issue. Up to that point, Lysa was portrayed as haughty and fearful, and she comes out as treacherous and utterly crazy. As well, it reveals that whatever we thought about Littlefinger up to that point, the reality is far worse. ASOS had many "holy shit" moments, and this was one of them.

[Theda Baratheon]

I'm really liking the way they're portraying Sansa in the show, with some more vengeance, I gotta admit.

The fact that Sophie Turner could pass for 25 and towers over everyone sort of took away from Baelish's creeper moment

No, she definitely doesn't pass for 25 in the show, she's tall and very beautiful but she's also undeniably a child. The way she was speaking about winterfell, she sounded very young.

[Theda Baratheon]

Yes and yes. I dunno. I should have seen this coming, as Sweetrobin's actor was not all that young even in Season 1, and that was filmed back in 2010, but eliminating the mother/son angle to Sansa and Sweetrobin's relationship really diminishes it. No shade on Sweetrobin's actor--he's fine except for his age--but they really should have recast with someone younger for Sweetrobin's return in Season 4.

Everyone is older in the show. He's plenty young and irritating and Sansa can still be maternal towards him.

[Lothar]

It's easy for me to imagine a 12-14 year old building a snow castle, losing her temper when a little brat tears it down, but also feeling the obligation to be nurturing in the way where an older sibling has to take the role of a surrogate parent before she's really equipped to do so, and having a young teenager's mix of curiosity and repulsion of being kissed, both despite and because of not having a complete understanding of everything sex entails. When I see someone who looks like a young adult playing in the snow, slapping a child, and kissing a man, I have to actively tear down my assumption in the back of my thoughts that because she looks like a young adult, she has the knowledge and experience of a young adult. And by Westeros standards, there wouldn't be anything particularly ick about a man Littlefinger's age pursuing a 17 year old. Show Sansa would be an appropriate age to be getting married and running her own household.

There's no way she's 17 in the show. She was 14 when she married Tyrion at the end of last season. It hasn't been 3 years since then. As far as we know, she's still a 14 year old building a snow castle. Well, not building, since they cut that part out.

[ladyinblack]

Sansa's lie about Marillion's guilt has been left out, obviously, since there was no Marillion or any other character to be accused falsely of having killed Lysa. Sansa does not have a part in Marillion's death by lying! Oh-oh, serious whitewashing here, character assassination, St. Sansa the showmakers' favorite pet!!!! :D

But with the rather consensual kiss and the different approach between Baelish and Sansa the showmakers will probaly walk the path of making Sansa and LF more partners in crime in the future than it was hinted at in the books.

The Thronecast interview with Aiden certainly implies just that

[Dreams and Prophecies]

GRRM prefers Arya over Sansa? That's news to me. Sure, he outright said that his favorite character is Tyrion but Arya's popularity stems from the fans, who outnumber Sansa fans.