[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa X: Cold never bothered her anyway...

[OnlyOne]

i wouldn't say vengeful killer person but there's no doubt that sansa's being set up to kill. tyrion's line about her not being a killer yet, slapping robin when she was angry with him and smiling when she hears littlefinger explain that you hurt people who hurt you or your loved ones. plus, she's far more aggressive with littlefinger than she ever was in the book. this is the second time she's demanded something from him.

Now everybody is catching on....LF is doomed.

[juanml82]

I don't see why Sansa would turn on Balish. He saved her from the KL, and saved her from Lysa, and he loved her mother. Sansa really only has positive experience with Balish. I think they are tied up as partners.

I think it depends on Sansa finding out -or not - that LF betrayed Ned in season 1

[Chebyshov]

I think it depends on Sansa finding out -or not - that LF betrayed Ned in season 1

Plus I don't think she's on-board with the poisoning of SR. We'll see how they change that in the show given SR's heartiness, but Sansa knows LF isn't a good or trustworthy man. Plus the creep factor.

[Cas Stark]

Am I right that show Sansa doesn't know that her aunt poisoned her husband? She wasn't there in the scene between Lysa and LF, and last night all she says is she killed for him?

Interesting change, it could be mean nothing or could mean that Book Sansa will never do anything with this information that matters.

[Empress In The North]

I don't like her at all.

She has done nothing, the most passive character in the history of characters.

Her only "thing" is being a Stark.

Nope. Nope. Not going to do it.

[Fey]

Don't know which thread to put this in, but I suppose I'll put it here.

Didn't like the scene at all, from the beginning of the snow castle scene to the end with Lysa's death. I knew it would be hard to portray how important the castle meant to her, but it still disappointed me that they didn't. Short and rushed. Robin trying to be kind towards Sansa, and her snapping at him for accidentally breaking a part of the castle felt extremely bratty of her, especially since viewers don't know how she's supposed to have worked on it for hours and how much thought and effort were put into it.

Lysa's death scene felt incredibly rushed and not intense at all like in the book. And I find it interesting/odd that they didn't have Lysa repeat that she killed her husband, since Sansa now doesn't know this fact and, if she ever finds out, it would have to be from LF (assuming it's important that Sansa knows that LF had Lysa murder her own husband)

[Elba the Intoner]

Props for the Frozen link! I too immediately thought of Sansa in her snow castle as soon as I heard "Let It Go". That is Sansa's new anthem for me.

As for the big scene, sadly I too found it was underwhelming and rushed. I don't know why they put the reveal about Lysa killing Jon Arryn and blaming it on the Lannisters a few episodes back in a murmer between her and Petyr. It was much more shocking in the books and there was such a built up of rising craziness in which Lysa completely breaks with reality and starts addressing Sansa as if she is Cat in the books that would have been really powerful to show. I do think Kate Dickey did a great job with what she was given though. I am as perplexed as everyone else as to who they are going to explain Lysa's death now. I am really, really trying not to be a critical book purist, I liked that they reintroduced Hot Pie for example, and I get that you can't show internal monologue the same way in a visual medium, but I just don't get why they are making some of the changes that would be great TV. "Only Cat" was a much more powerful statement. And Sansa needs to know that information herself.

I am also going to bring up the Hound's scene here because it relates to Sansa. I liked his monologue and I love Rory's portrayal of the Hound but would it have killed the writers to have him mention Sansa here? If the running theme of this ep was all about sibling relationships as the article in the link someone posted above suggests, then why not have the conversation about when he asks Arya if she had a brother she wanted to kill, or perhaps a sister? That was the perfect place for it.

[Oberoth]

Robin wanted to show sansa the moon door, but he was over excited. He was about to slip when lysa tossed him back and saved him. Unfortunately she fell instead.

Not sure how they will actually explain the push/fall. I did miss the "Only Cat" line.

[Dreams and Prophecies]

For some reason, they really seem to emphasizing on Robin pushing "something" out the moondoor. Whether it was the "gift" from Petyr in episode 5 or him telling Sansa that he could let someone fly. Now the eyrie set has been torn down and in the books, they have descended to the gates of the moon, but still weird that they emphasized it twice.

ETA: Moon tea was not mentioned. Not important then?

[juanml82]

ETA: Moon tea was not mentioned. Not important then?

Well, I think it's vital to understand Book!Lysa motivations and her sad backstory. I'm not sure Show!Lysa motivations aren't clear though: she didn't help Robb because she was very jealous and upset at her sister, had been madly in love with LF all her life and she struggled to finally marry him despite all opposition.

[Chebyshov]

ETA: Moon tea was not mentioned. Not important then?

I had the same thought. Then again it could be a detail or minor plot that just won't make it into the show.

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

So, I re-watched the scene (much to my chagrin), and I'm thinking that the reason they kissed so long was so that the camera could pan out to Lysa watching. I think they were trying to set up an "Oh shit" moment when the audience saw that Lysa was watching them, so basically, the directing was, "Kiss and hold". That theory still doesn't change the fact that the scene--as a whole--was terribly rushed and underwhelming, but I'm thinking that at least explains the long kiss part.

[howardh51]

I think this is another example of the show overtaking the book(s)...

To me it reads as if - when we catch up to Sansa and LF in WOW - they will be more partners and the show needed to ummm, show this, to move the story forward for next season when we get into WOW territory...

[RoamingRonin]

I liked the snow castle scene a lot. I like Robin a lot more on the show than the books (did the kid age at all in real life?). The snow scene had great pacing but the Lysa-Sansa-LF scene? Not so much. It felt rushed, didn't have suspense. I burst out laughing at "Your sister". Sophie Turner is not just tall but full-bodied as well. There's something amazonian (you mad OP? lol) about her. Why didn't she just pick up Aunt Lysa and slam dunk her through the moon door. :lol:

The Vale scenes were good TV but as a reader I would have liked something more in line with the books.

LF and Sansa might tell "the truth" about what happened: Lysa attacked her and LF saved her.

[Gogossos]

The Sansa scenes in this episode sums up the challenges, the mistakes and what they sometimes get right, about adapting the books. It started brilliantly and Sansa looked radiant in the snow, as she should. The building of the snow castle was skipped and SR's and LF's interjections were switched around. The reason for that, I guess, was to carry the momentum to Lysa's scene, so maybe it's understandable. Slapping Robin felt fine and oddly the kissing scene, whilst it wasn't exactly spot on, it wasn't wrong either. Perhaps a bit longer than it should but Sansa didn't consent, she didn't strongly push him back either - curtesy as armour. The mistakes, I feel, started at Lysa's scene. Couldn't they have invested another two minutes to allow Lysa to rant and rave, going madder by the second? I know that they put the Jon Arryn poisoning confession a few episodes earlier, so they couldn't really put it here again but even without it the main thrust of the rant could've come across. Cat once kissed and teased LF and it was Lysa who snuck into his room, gave up her virginity to him and even fell pregnant before it was terminated by Hoster. She's always loved and is devoted to Petyr, and Sansa's kiss was just a reminder of what Cat once did to him and it pushed her over the edge.

And it was that rage as she dragged Sansa that convinces LF that Lysa's time was over. So while cutting out the moment when Sansa got lost in her Winterfell memories was probably a good filming decision, I think shortening Lysa's rant is the reason why the scene lacked a bit of punch (to readers anyway) as well as the decision to change an iconic line and for that there's no excuse. Maybe it's D&D's ego taking over, maybe they thought it wasn't clear (which is a result of them condensing Lysa's rant), quite possibly maybe they weren't aware of how iconic that line was.

[Hoo]

I'm not really clear what to make of the repeated scenes of Sansa insisting on Littlefinger's "real" motivation, because what he told her back in episode 4 was far closer to the truth than what he says here (unless what he said was supposed to be true, but I really can't imagine that, because it makes no sense). So we're not seeing a progression of uncovering the truth, though Sansa may think that's what she's doing; but it's presented in such a way that I suspect casual viewers might buy it, because it resembles a progression.

This. A really good point. I have no idea why Sansa asked Balish again to give her the real reason for killing Joffrey. The sound reason was given when they were sailing for Vale, the boy was unstable. In this episode Balish tells Sansa it was because Joff killed Cat, as the real reason. But would Balish then not kill Tywin? Seems like an inconsistent plot tool to get to the kiss and killing of Lysa.

*Confused*

[Woman of War]

Sansa's lie about Marillion's guilt has been left out, obviously, since there was no Marillion or any other character to be accused falsely of having killed Lysa. Sansa does not have a part in Marillion's death by lying! Oh-oh, serious whitewashing here, character assassination, St. Sansa the showmakers' favorite pet!!!! :D

But with the rather consensual kiss and the different approach between Baelish and Sansa the showmakers will probaly walk the path of making Sansa and LF more partners in crime in the future than it was hinted at in the books.

[Le Cygne]

I am also going to bring up the Hound's scene here because it relates to Sansa. I liked his monologue and I love Rory's portrayal of the Hound but would it have killed the writers to have him mention Sansa here? If the running theme of this ep was all about sibling relationships as the article in the link someone posted above suggests, then why not have the conversation about when he asks Arya if she had a brother she wanted to kill, or perhaps a sister? That was the perfect place for it.

Good point, Elba! Praise for the actors, but the writers don't have a feel for these stories.

Looking at the two scenes side by side, when Sandor hit Arya, and when Sansa hit Sweetrobin, that was filmed the same way. I'd imagine there will be a moment when Sansa and Sweetrobin come together next, like Sandor and Arya did. I guess there's some meaning there (perhaps they are the parent figures in the absence of Ned and Catelyn), but I'd rather they hadn't gone there. Words are more effective than slaps, to my thinking.

[juanml82]

This. A really good point. I have no idea why Sansa asked Balish again to give her the real reason for killing Joffrey. The sound reason was given when they were sailing for Vale, the boy was unstable. In this episode Balish tells Sansa it was because Joff killed Cat, as the real reason. But would Balish then not kill Tywin? Seems like an inconsistent plot tool to get to the kiss and killing of Lysa.

*Confused*

I agree that vengeance required the death of Tywin, not Joffrey who, for all his faults, had nothing to do with the RW. I guess LF thought process is "Damn! She didn't believe me when I told her the truth... sigh... I'll just lie to her. I'll end up taking her to my bed that way. Maybe I'll steal a kiss today and see what happens"

[Newstar]

I don't think striking a smaller, younger, weaker child (not that TV Sweetrobin seems like a weak child, but TV Sansa is clearly much stronger than he is) is something Book Sansa would do. I don't think it's ZOMG character assassination or anything, but it just doesn't fit with my image of Sansa, who even at her most incensed only took out her anger on Sweetrobin's doll. It's not that I think she wouldn't have the impulse--in AFFC when Sweetrobin is being trying she thinks how she'd like to give him slaps--but acting on it?

I'm kind of puzzled by the Hound's lack of references to Sansa, particularly given how many conversations the Hound and Arya have been having. It's not that there have been none (the Hound mentioned saving Sansa during the riot), but it almost seemed in the books as if he wouldn't shut up about her.

Rorge and Biter's deaths (meaning no clash with Brienne and no rape of Saltpans), with Brienne burning through her AFFC storyline (meaning a possible early meeting with Stoneheart), really make me wonder about whether the Hound will die for real on the show. I scoffed at the idea before, but I am really starting to wonder.

On another note, we're still missing that shot from the Season 4 trailer of Sansa stalking through a hallway, looking angry.