[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa X: Cold never bothered her anyway...

[Chebyshov]

GRRM prefers Arya over Sansa? That's news to me. Sure, he outright said that his favorite character is Tyrion but Arya's popularity stems from the fans, who outnumber Sansa fans.

I know his wife likes Ayra best, but I don't remember GRRM saying anything about her (especially vs. Sansa).

There's no way she's 17 in the show. She was 14 when she married Tyrion at the end of last season. It hasn't been 3 years since then. As far as we know, she's still a 14 year old building a snow castle. Well, not building, since they cut that part out.

According to the GoT wiki she's supposed to be 15-16 in S4. They're not really explaining the flow of time well, but then again they said something about her being tortured by Joffrey for 2 years, so that kind of fits.

[The Last Conformist]

I'm getting kind of excited about the speed of Sansa's storyline in Season 4, because I hope that it means that Sansa's storyline blows up post-ADWD into something really huge, and that they're flying through Sansa's ASOS/AFFC material to give themselves as much space possible in the show to cover it (bearing in mind that D&D have been batting around the seven seasons number for a while). However, it could just be that the writers are whipping through Sansa's remaining published chapters for some other reason, or that they're planning some Qarth-type filler arc. I know a lot of fans were really excited about Sansa going off on her own arc in the Vale and no longer being a glorified prop for Lannister-centric scenes, but their patience has been rewarded with the show tearing through Sansa's chapters at warp speed.

As for Harry the Heir, I could see them eliminating him entirely for economy. We still don't know how important he is in the books--red herring? Sansa's endgame husband?--but really, even if he is important in the books in some way, D&D might still write him out regardless. GRRM warned D&D against writing out Willas and Garlan because of their importance in future books, and D&D went ahead and did it anyway.

Yes and yes. I dunno. I should have seen this coming, as Sweetrobin's actor was not all that young even in Season 1, and that was filmed back in 2010, but eliminating the mother/son angle to Sansa and Sweetrobin's relationship really diminishes it. No shade on Sweetrobin's actor--he's fine except for his age--but they really should have recast with someone younger for Sweetrobin's return in Season 4.

If Anya Waynwood is already cast (and she is), I don't see why Harry the Heir wouldn't appear next season. Frankly, it would be a bit strange to keep Lady Waynwood but cut out the only thing that makes her important (that she basically controls Harry the Heir).

We'll see. I think Harry the Heir will be mentioned in the meeting with the Lords Declarant next episode. They could have cut the Lords Declarant entirely (especially since Marillion is cut), but they didn't, which indicates to me that Sansa/the Vale's plotline will continue more or less as written.

[Chebyshov]

I'm getting kind of excited about the speed of Sansa's storyline in Season 4, because I hope that it means that Sansa's storyline blows up post-ADWD into something really huge, and that they're flying through Sansa's ASOS/AFFC material to give themselves as much space possible in the show to cover it (bearing in mind that D&D have been batting around the seven seasons number for a while). However, it could just be that the writers are whipping through Sansa's remaining published chapters for some other reason, or that they're planning some Qarth-type filler arc. I know a lot of fans were really excited about Sansa going off on her own arc in the Vale and no longer being a glorified prop for Lannister-centric scenes, but their patience has been rewarded with the show tearing through Sansa's chapters at warp speed.

As for Harry the Heir, I could see them eliminating him entirely for economy. We still don't know how important he is in the books--red herring? Sansa's endgame husband?--but really, even if he is important in the books in some way, D&D might still write him out regardless. GRRM warned D&D against writing out Willas and Garlan because of their importance in future books, and D&D went ahead and did it anyway.

I agree with this. If the reason we're so far in Sansa's material is because there's a lot coming up, that's incredibly exciting. If it's more of a "well we have a lot to cover next season" move, then I'll be disappointed.

As for Harry being cut, it's incredibly hard to predict with what we know of her arc so far. I think SR looking super healthy makes me more doubtful of Harry's appearance, but maybe they'll give SR a fit next week, or we'll hear Harry's name evoked. Kind of a jump-ball at the moment.

[Dreams and Prophecies]

I wonder how they are going to portray Bronze Yohn Royce. We do not know for sure that he knows Sansa's identity but it is hinted in the books (and that is with the hair dye). Since he is going to appear, i really do wonder what's going to happen. Will he go "do i know you"?

[Annara Snow]

I know his wife likes Ayra best, but I don't remember GRRM saying anything about her (especially vs. Sansa).

According to the GoT wiki she's supposed to be 15-16 in S4. They're not really explaining the flow of time well, but then again they said something about her being tortured by Joffrey for 2 years, so that kind of fits.

GoT wiki is wrong, plain and simple. It's not really the most reliable source out there. Sansa can't be 16 unless there's been more than a year since her wedding to Tyrion (when she still hadn't turned 15), which would also mean about a year since the RW... which is obviously not the case. Someone got confused between the time that passes on the show and the time that passes in real life while we're watching the show. They also put Joffrey at 19 (?!), explaining it by a mention of him being 17 in season 2, and they obviously think that there's actually been two years between season 2 and season 4, like Kit when he said he had been beyond the Wall for two years (LOL).

It's not even consistent - whoever edited Dany's page put her age as 18 (?!), which is also obviously incorrect, since she was 17 in season 1, being about the same age as Robb and Jon, so she should be 19 now. And, of course, it's theoretically impossible for Joffrey to be older than Dany.

[Chebyshov]

GoT wiki is wrong, plain and simple. It's not really the most reliable source out there. Sansa can't be 16 unless there's been more than a year since her wedding to Tyrion (when she still hadn't turned 15), which would also mean about a year since the RW... which is obviously not the case. Someone got confused between the time that passes on the show and the time that passes in real life while we're watching the show. They also put Joffrey at 19 (?!), explaining it by a mention of him being 17 in season 2, and they obviously think that there's actually been two years between season 2 and season 4, like Kit when he said he had been beyond the Wall for two years (LOL).

It's not even consistent - whoever edited Dany's page put her age as 18 (?!), which is also obviously incorrect, since she was 17 in season 1, being about the same age as Robb and Jon, so she should be 19 now. And, of course, it's theoretically impossible for Joffrey to be older than Dany.

Yeah, the GoT wiki is definitely off, but so is the show's timeline. They say that Tommen was 8 in S1, and we are definitely not looking at a 10/11 year old king. You're right about Sansa's age at the wedding; IMO placing her nearish to 15 seems a safe choice. But the whole thing is entirely farcockt.

[Annara Snow]

Random tangent: how far ahead do the actors get the scripts? I know Sophie's read the books. I remember reading that Aiden hasn't. It may not be trolling so much as utter innocence.

He said that after filming scenes in which he's creeping on her including kissing her, so yeah, he was definitely trolling.

Sophie has only read her chapters, and she only reads them for the season she's working on. I don't know if it means that she had read just ASOS, or AFFC too before filming season 4, since they seem to already be including AFFC stuff like Lords Declarant and the aftermath of Lysa's death.

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re: the kiss - the way the kiss itself was filmed isn't that different from how it is in the book; it's Sansa's reaction once she overcomes her shock and pulls away that's strong in the book:

“I told you that nothing could please me more than to help you with your castle. I fear that was a lie as well. Something else would please me more.” He stepped closer. “This.”

Sansa tried to step back, but he pulled her into his arms and suddenly he was kissing her. Feebly, she tried to squirm, but only succeeded in pressing herself more tightly against him. His mouth was on hers, swallowing her words. He tasted of mint. For half a heartbeat she yielded to his kiss... before she turned her face away and wrenched free. “What are you doing?”

Petyr straightened his cloak. “Kissing a snow maid.”

“You’re supposed to kiss her.” Sansa glanced up at Lysa’s balcony, but it was empty now. “Your lady wife.”

“I do. Lysa has no cause for complaint.” He smiled. “I wish you could see yourself, my lady. You are so beautiful. You’re crusted over with snow like some little bear cub, but your face is flushed and you can scarcely breathe. How long have you been out here? You must be very cold. Let me warm you, Sansa. Take off those gloves, give me your hands.”

“I won’t.” He sounded almost like Marillion, the night he’d gotten so drunk at the wedding. Only this time Lothor Brune would not appear to save her; Ser Lothor was Petyr’s man. “You shouldn’t kiss me. I might have been your own daughter...”

“Might have been,” he admitted, with a rueful smile. “But you’re not, are you? You are Eddard Stark’s daughter, and Cat’s. But I think you might be even more beautiful than your mother was, when she was your age.”

“Petyr, please.” Her voice sounded so weak. “Please.”

“A castle!”

The voice was loud, shrill, and childish. Littleflnger turned away from her. “Lord Robert.” He sketched a bow. “Should you be out in the snow without your gloves?”

[Annara Snow]

Yeah, the GoT wiki is definitely off, but so is the show's timeline. They say that Tommen was 8 in S1, and we are definitely not looking at a 10/11 year old king. You're right about Sansa's age at the wedding; IMO placing her nearish to 15 seems a safe choice. But the whole thing is entirely farcockt.

Yeah... they screwed up with the Tommen reference. The child actors are growing up and the show timeline is slower paced. On the other hand, people and news seem to travel very fast. Maybe they could try to make it look like time has passed in season 5... but I wonder how they'll do Brienne's story then. The time on the show is a wibbly wobbly timey wimey thing. :p

[Annara Snow]

A new interview with Aidan Gillen: http://www.tvguide.com/News/Game-Thrones-Mockingbird-Postmortem-Littlefinger-Gillen-1081973.aspx

Does he think of himself as Sansa's mentor? Or perhaps a father figure?
Gillen: I think kind of a mentor. I think we're also going to see that with Lysa's son Robin Arryn (Lino Facioli) as well. These two young people need some guidance, and I do put myself in that position. I traveled to the Eyrie with Sansa. She assumes this identity, this alias Alayne Stone. She likes it, she likes role playing. It's more like a surrogate avuncular uncle-like relationship. I think a lot of this stuff is complicated.

So, he at least seems to think she's Alayne Stone on the show. (Bastard? Daughter of a bastard?) And I can't see how they could avoid mentioning her name/identity in the next episode.

On another note, his interviews are so amusing: "These two young people need some guidance" :lol:

[Chebyshov]

A new interview with Aidan Gillen: http://www.tvguide.com/News/Game-Thrones-Mockingbird-Postmortem-Littlefinger-Gillen-1081973.aspx

So, he at least seems to think she's Alayne Stone on the show. (Bastard? Daughter of a bastard?) And I can't see how they could avoid mentioning her name/identity in the next episode.

On another note, his interviews are so amusing: "These two young people need some guidance" :lol:

Yay! I assumed we'd hear her last name being "Stone" at some point, but this is pretty decent confirmation. I love how he calls killing Lysa an "inspired moment" for LF. Gillen's quite funny.

EDIT:

And there's this gem:

"Does he want her as a political pawn or does some of it have to do with Catelyn?

Gillen: For sure, and I think Sansa views him as a political pawn too. Or she's probably not thinking politically, but she's playing him. She's becoming something, she's changing. And I think it wouldn't be beyond her to be playing me."

[Newstar]

The Thronecast interview with Aiden certainly implies just that

Hard to take Aiden's interviews seriously, considering how he has in interviews characterized Petyr's interest in Sansa as paternal, avuncular, and not creepy.

As for Sophie Turner's interviews...let's just say that there's often a disconnect between her take on what she thinks is going on in the show and what appears on screen. Grain of salt and all.

Not very much time has elapsed in the show since Sansa gave her age as 14. She could have turned 15 since, I guess, but she couldn't be any older.

[ugashep]

Sorry yall, my quote function does not work. I think it is a distinct possibility that Sansa will turn out to be a tragic figure. Essentially, a little girl with idealistic dreams, that horrible circumstances destroy. This tale is one where there are not going to be happy final endings for many characters including "good" ones like Sansa. I am not surprised that my post from yesterday was quickly and strongly disagreed with by people who post under names implying a Sansa fanship, in fact that is part of the point I was making. I think that it is just as likely that the hardcore Sansa fans are reading her wrong as it is that D&D are simply "not getting it".

Also, to mladen, when I said "ultimately has" in my post above I meant as Newstar suggested, in future books.

[Woman of War]

I believe that step by step, so the show only fans won't clearly realize that the timeline is a little bit off, the show will correct the ages of the young characters. After all they have to since otherwise they would have to recast most of them.

And it has some real advantages, just like Martin himself saw the 5 year gap as positive for some character arcs. For example it was necessary to have Sansa naive and young at KL, still young enough that she can dream of beautiful princes and emotionally too young for sex at her wedding with Tyrion, one important aspect of him refusing consummation. And already Turner so very visibly was not fourteen anymore.

And Arya is far more believable at around thirteen or fourteen, the actress - and the character - could hardly pass for eleven. Bran is visibly a young man. Robert Arryn already is as tall as his mother was. And Sansa - well, she looks like at least twenty and having her act like a fourteen year old would seem totally off, she'd come over as retarded.The show slightly speeds up time for former child characters and works at letting us forget the ages at the beginning of the story. By now Sansa plays maybe sixteen and next season she will be a believable seven- to eighteen year old, not far from Turner's real age. One small remark about her age and the character of Sansa is old enough for hinting at sex and Baelish and her may become more than partners in crime.

Apart from that Turner looks, as some stated it, "amazonian" or "statuesque". The last thing I want to be is anyhow demeaning since the actress is very beautiful, but she has the frame of an olympic swimmer and looks as if she could wield a weapon not much worse than Brienne. The showmakers simply cannot write the story of a helpless girl for her, again she would come over as dumb. This is no little bird and her book story has to get a very different twist, the helpless virgin does not really suit her.

Shouldn't we be happy about that? I do not care if her character takes a walk on the darker side since there are no real moral event horizons for Martin's characters. Meaning that wherever Sansa goes, on her own or following Baelish, she can always turn around, just like nearly any other character apart from the Ramsays of that world. And Sansa herself does not know the full extent of what Baelish did, she has no idea of his actions against her family - so why should she see him in a negative light? If she goes along with him having killed Lysa, what else should she hold against him? Obviously not the poisoning, actually she seemed attracted to the possibilities lying in darker actions. So far she has yet to find out some truths about LF and I hope she will research herself instead of getting secrets served on a silver platter.

And the more Sansa is involved with Baelish the deeper might be his fall in the end (and the better the story may get, and that is what everything is about)

I think it is a distinct possibility that Sansa will turn out to be a tragic figure. Essentially, a little girl with idealistic dreams, that horrible circumstances destroy. This tale is one where there are not going to be happy final endings for many characters including "good" ones like Sansa.

.....

This may happen if Sansa follows Baelish into moral event horizon hell. Possible but less likely than getting a way out imo

[juanml82]

I'm willing to concede they understand her if that means they just didn't like her very much. Outcome is the same. My opinion is based mostly on three things: Sansa's blistering rebuke of the Septa in season 1 ("Oh, I forgot. I don't care."); the emmense popularity of Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Bronn, Oberyn, Arya, Jamie and any other character whose plots tend to get more threads and comments than a Sansa one; and the missing seven minutes at the end of last night's episode.

Cat Stark and the awful addition of Talisa would tend to refute that. Also Shae suddenly turning on Tyrion at the trial has confused a lot of unsullied because it is so against the characterisation they have done with her.

While they may talk to the author that doesn't preclude the "wouldn't it be cool if" aspect of deviation or the dude bro nature of the producers. The addition of the Pod brothel scene or the babies in jars at Dragonstone for example. Indeed when you have guest directors weirded out by a producer demanding random naked women in a scene to appeal to the pervert side of the audience, that does not suggest character understanding as much as a guy who has never mentally matured beyond 15.

They are doing what they think will be cool in the adaptation of the books, but that doesn't mean that it is the definitive way to do things or they are getting the right idea across to the viewer ( such as the Jaime raping Cersei scene that they thought they portrayed as consensual).

Some filler they do well; the Brienne/Pod/Hotpie scene was lovely and very much in the spirit of the relationship between the two in the books. However other filler, does not work well.

The show is, in a not too broad definition, fanfiction. And I don't mean it in an insulting tone - many of the greatest narrative works of art in history are, after all, fanfiction. But, and this is important, D&D aren't posting this in ff.net or elsewhere. They are making a multi-million dollar business. So they probably have HBO execs pestering them about the ratings, they have focus groups and other marketing research going on, and they are also trying to set themselves up for newer contracts and projects once the show is over. And you just don't manage that kind of business with the mental age of a fifteen years old teen.

The changes they make to the source material aren't because they don't like certain characters. That may influence their writing in a subconscious level, but their ultimate goal is to attract viewers and make the best use of the available budget. Some things they have to change because they don't reflect in a TV screen as they do in a book, some because they thing they are cool and some because previous decisions generated backlash discovered in actual marketing research, not by reading Internet forums. Now, some of the changes are good, some are bad and Sansa's arc isn't the offender in that list. IMHO, it's because D&D have the subtlety of a sledgehammer and lack experience in screenwritting. Remember, in the pilot, which would have determined whether the show was made or not, they had not even explained that Cersei and Jaime were siblings. It got approved due the sunk cost fallacy.

As for the character ages and the time that passed in the show, I've given up trying to figure that out. Regarding Sansa, she doesn't look fourteen at all. And if a TV character doesn't look fourteen, then it's not fourteen because excuses are not shot.

[Annara Snow]

I believe that step by step, so the show only fans won't clearly realize that the timeline is a little bit off, the show will correct the ages of the young characters. After all they have to since otherwise they would have to recast most of them.

And it has some real advantages, just like Martin himself saw the 5 year gap as positive for some character arcs. For example it was necessary to have Sansa naive and young at KL, still young enough that she can dream of beautiful princes and emotionally too young for sex at her wedding with Tyrion, one important aspect of him refusing consummation. And already Turner so very visibly was not fourteen anymore.

And Arya is far more believable at around thirteen or fourteen, the actress - and the character - could hardly pass for eleven. Bran is visibly a young man. Robert Arryn already is as tall as his mother was. And Sansa - well, she looks like at least twenty and having her act like a fourteen year old would seem totally off, she'd come over as retarded.The show slightly speeds up time for former child characters and works at letting us forget the ages at the beginning of the story. By now Sansa plays maybe sixteen and next season she will be a believable seven- to eighteen year old, not far from Turner's real age. One small remark about her age and the character of Sansa is old enough for hinting at sex and Baelish and her may become more than partners in crime.

Apart from that Turner looks, as some stated it, "amazonian" or "statuesque". The last thing I want to be is anyhow demeaning since the actress is very beautiful, but she has the frame of an olympic swimmer and looks as if she could wield a weapon not much worse than Brienne. The showmakers simply cannot write the story of a helpless girl for her, again she would come over as dumb. This is no little bird and her book story has to get a very different twist, the helpless virgin does not really suit her.

Shouldn't we be happy about that? I do not care if her character takes a walk on the darker side since there are no real moral event horizons for Martin's characters. Meaning that wherever Sansa goes, on her own or following Baelish, she can always turn around, just like nearly any other character apart from the Ramsays of that world. And Sansa herself does not know the full extent of what Baelish did, she has no idea of his actions against her family - so why should she see him in a negative light? If she goes along with him having killed Lysa, what else should she hold against him? Obviously not the poisoning, actually she seemed attracted to the possibilities lying in darker actions. So far she has yet to find out some truths about LF and I hope she will research herself instead of getting secrets served on a silver platter.

And the more Sansa is involved with Baelish the deeper might be his fall in the end (and the better the story may get, and that is what everything is about)

This may happen if Sansa follows Baelish into moral event horizon hell. Possible but less likely than getting a way out imo

Um, Sansa and Baelish can't be "partners in crime", let alone consensual lovers :rolleyes: and that has little to do with whether she's 13, 15 or 17 (let alone her height; seriously? That's a ridiculous argument. I guess show!Joffrey should have never had any power, especially not over all those big strong men who obeyed him). Being partners implies a more or less equal relationship. What we have here is a massive power disbalance between one of the politically most powerful men in Westeros, and a girl in a helpless position, with no family, no one to turn to, nowhere to go, who's wanted by the crown for a crime she was framed for (by this very same powerful man) and must hide her identity unless someone takes her to King's Landing to be tried and executed. In addition, this powerful man is now girl's legal guardian in the eyes of the world, and she has little choice but to hope that the powerful man will keep protecting her from being taken to the queen and getting her head chopped off, and that, preferably, he will not make her his sex slave yet.

As for a potential "consensual love affair" between Sansa and LF, that would be like saying Craster relationships with his daughter-wives was consensual.

Re: Sansa not being "emotionally mature" for sex with Tyrion - so, I guess, a girl has to reach a certain level of emotional maturity before she decides that it would be a good idea to have sex with a man she finds completely unattractive and that she was forced to marry by her captors, who had been waging a war against her family, in order to use her to get her family's lands... because... uh, I don't know? I can't think of any reason why she would have wanted to have sex with him.

[juanml82]

Um, Sansa and Baelish can't be "partners in crime", let alone consensual lovers :rolleyes: and that has little to do with whether she's 13, 15 or 17 (let alone her height; seriously? That's a ridiculous argument. I guess show!Joffrey should have never had any power, especially not over all those big strong men who obeyed him). Being partners implies a more or less equal relationship. What we have here is a massive power disbalance between one of the politically most powerful men in Westeros, and a girl in a helpless position, with no family, no one to turn to, nowhere to go, who's wanted by the crown for a crime she was framed for (by this very same powerful man) and must hide her identity unless someone takes her to King's Landing to be tried and executed. In addition, this powerful man is now girl's legal guardian in the eyes of the world, and she has little choice but to hope that the powerful man will keep protecting her from being taken to the queen and getting her head chopped off, and that, preferably, he will not make her his sex slave yet.

As for a potential "consensual love affair" between Sansa and LF, that would be like saying Craster relationships with his daughter-wives was consensual.

Re: Sansa not being "emotionally mature" for sex with Tyrion - so, I guess, a girl has to reach a certain level of emotional maturity before she decides that it would be a good idea to have sex with a man she finds completely unattractive and that she was forced to marry by her captors, who had been waging a war against her family, in order to use her to get her family's lands... because... uh, I don't know? I can't think of any reason why she would have wanted to have sex with him.

Show!Sansa seems rather assertive around Littlefinger. If she's supposed to be afraid of him, she doesn't show it at all.

Just saying

[Annara Snow]

Show!Sansa seems rather assertive around Littlefinger. If she's supposed to be afraid of him, she doesn't show it at all.

Just saying

Well, that's it then! If she's not trembling and cowering, she is clearly in a position of power! She could fight her way across Westeros and go meet Jon at the Wall, or have a nice talk with Cersei to settle their differences and convince her to let her go. She just prefers to be with Littlefinger because he's so cool, and has a great dental plan.

[Chebyshov]

Show!Sansa seems rather assertive around Littlefinger. If she's supposed to be afraid of him, she doesn't show it at all.

Just saying

Yeah, when he slew Dontos she actually giggled!

This is reminding me of the people saying that she should have been able to spinning-dragon-kick Lysa out the Moon Door.

[Woman of War]

I think it is a positive thing that Turner's age and looks make it difficult for the show to further emphazise the "helpless girl" direction. I do not understand, Annara, why you deny her the agency show Sansa has so much more - or takes herself so much more - than book Sansa. Show Sansa is an improvement imo, she promises a better story than book Sansa.

But I guess the show just condenses her story and takes it there where it was meant to go anyway by Martin.

[juanml82]

Well, that's it then! If she's not trembling and cowering, she is clearly in a position of power! She could fight her way across Westeros and go meet Jon at the Wall, or have a nice talk with Cersei to settle their differences and convince her to let her go. She just prefers to be with Littlefinger because he's so cool, and has a great dental plan.

Oh, wait, did I say anything like that? (Goes back to reread what I just wrote) Oh, I didn't.

Yeah, when he slew Dontos she actually giggled!

This is reminding me of the people saying that she should have been able to spinning-dragon-kick Lysa out the Moon Door.

And she shows fear exactly how?