[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa X: Cold never bothered her anyway...

[Petyr Patter]

Jesus, I'm not from USA but really hope that this is not the legal definition in many US states, because that sounds horribly outdated. I'll try not to discuss rape much, but I have to say I'd find it really disturbing if people thought that a person has to be penetrated to be raped (fits with "men can't be raped if they have an erection") and if it sex obtained through coercion, threats (unless it's direct violence), abuse of authority, including that of a family member over a child, master over slave (including sex trafficking), husband over a child bride, kidnapper over hostage, or temporary or permanent incapacity of a person (including being unconscious) would be considered "consensual", if the victim isn't screaming and fighting.

Well, most sex crimes are dealt with on the state level in the US, meaning there are 50 different legal definitions surround "sexual violence." I do believe rape is mostly defined as penetration in the absence of consent, or consent obtained with threat of violence. There is also "statutory rape," which means a sexual act is defined by law as rape, even if it was otherwise consensual. Mostly statutory rape is related to "age of consent," which varies state by state. Meaning a consensual relationship between a 14 year old and a 21 year old can be prosecuted. I know some states extend the definition past age and include relationship of authority as a type of rape. For example, a high school teacher no matter how young compared to his or her students, is always in a position of authority over them and any sexual relationship could be prosecuted.

Regardless, there are certainly other laws that protect against sexual violence that doesn't include explicit penetration. Instead, terms like "sexual harassment," "sexual battery," or "sexual assault" are the legal definitions. Long story short, most obvious acts of sexual violence are prosecutable under some aspect of state or federal law. Certainly sex traffickers would not be able to skirt by technicalities.

The biggest problem with sexual violence in America is not in the wording of the law, but in proving an encounter was in fact non-consenual. In a lot of cases, the only witness to the assault was the victim herself. However, when a perpetrator is questioned, he claims the sex was consensual. Without any other evidence, most juries cannot find the person guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt," especially if drugs and alcohol were involved.

To tie this back to Sansa and Littlefinger, yeah, that kiss would totally get him locked up in America due to Sansa's age.

I do wish the show had made the lack of consent clearer. A couple lines of protest after the fact would have gotten the point across. Or a different angle where we see Sansa's face reacting in shock.

[1234567]

Sansa actively challenges Baelish and asks the right questions. This will forward her taking part far more than getting fooled by the fool with Florian and Jonquil stories. If "taking part" will go the way everybody in these forums likes or if she will go a different road some do not enjoy, who knows. But she is for sure no silent mouse.

And out there in the real world the word "agency" may have a meaning that makes sense. But in these forums it is the most cheapened expression and by now can only be used with heavy gravy of irony on top.

She challenged him and knew he was lying to her in the books. She is being led along by him in the TV series.

In the books she was complicit in her own escape and worked out the poison on her own, the dangers of Loras, Marg and Joff etc. The Florian and Jonquil story parallels her previous belief that all knights were good, such as one might believe that cops are all good, only to find they are not, but still hope that there are some who will stand up and be counted. This is not childish.

In the books Sansa distinguishes between Knights and True Knights, which is her looking for men who abide by a code in the same way one might hope for a Policeman who is honest after having to deal with corrupt cops.

She certainly is brighter in the books.

Also if you don't know the meaning of Agency I suggest you look it up. It is fairly easy to understand.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

On the show that really wouldn't be necessary. Sansa's main qualm about covering up Lysa's death in the book was framing Marillion for it, but Marillion doesn't exist, so that's not an issue. She also didn't hear anything about them killing Jon Arryn, so she has much less reason not to trust him, even if he's still creepy.

Well he does ask her in the trailer "I want to know which side you're on" and he sounds angry

[Annara Snow]

I have to agree with this. Already with Shae they made it look like she was in love with him (and cared about Sansa) only to completely ignore that and go back to book canon when needed. I'm afraid that they might do something similar here.They clearly want to add sappy illogical romance everywhere in the series, ugh.

I'm not seeing the similarity. They made Shae/Tyrion a genuine romance in order to make Tyrion look better and less delusional. Why on Earth would they be trying to make Sansa have a "love affair" with LF of all people? To make her look worse? To make LF look like a good guy? Nah.

I also find it hilarious that a couple of weeks ago, people were thinking the show was somehow paving the way for Sansa hook up with Tyrion in the end, now she's going to hook up with LF... If Marillion was in the show in his original role, I bet people would think she was going to hook up with him, too, unless Sansa karate-chopped him or something. :lol: And this on the same forum where a lot of people were arguing last week that the show will only have LF kiss her on a cheek or hug her, while others have claimed that the casting of a 40-year old as Sandor is a sure sign that there is never ever going to be anything romantic between him and Sansa...

[Chebyshov]

She certainly is brighter in the books.

We are privy to her thoughts in the books. Note in the show she does challenge his motives for the PW. It's not as proactive a role, but don't assume that Show!Sansa is less intelligent.

[juanml82]

By the way, there was an announcement about 'discussing rape' and this topic may hang soon. (Maybe)

Just to conclude this argument thoroughly and to understand what personal bickering is, I will apply the 'consensual' relationship with Sansa and LF to the show.

In other words, no. No, no no no no. Although I wouldn't put it past D&D to make Sansa and LF have a romantic affair, GRRM will probably not write that. I'm sure we all know why, I dearly hope. What does this mean for Show!Sansa? I cannot say. I can only predict and speculate on this matter. I don't think it's going to be sunshine and bunnies however, and it will most likely result in the death of a character. LF, Robin, or both LF and Robin. They both are irritating, one slightly more than the other.

I also don't think that Sansa is going to tell the 'truth' about LF in the next episode, because it seems quite early for this to happen. The question to ask is, who the hell was she talking to? Mayhaps I should watch it again...

Yohn Royce and Lady Waynwood were casted for this season, so it's probably them.

I took it different when he answered what do we do to those who kill the ones we love, I think her smile outside is hiding in her mind I know what you want sucker.

Maybe. But, then again, we have the previous Sansa reaction to Robin's idea of placing a Moon Door in the actual Winterfell. In other words, if LF wants vengeance for Catelyn, why would anyone think Sansa doesn't want the same thing?

I think Petyr will tell Sansa that if she doesn't cooperate, he will tell the lords that Sansa killed Lysa

Too blunt, I don't think so.

I actually wouldn't mind that. It would make the preview all the more troll-y.

My initial thought was that it might be like LF gives a version of Lysa's death where it comes off as a tragic accident or something where he's at fault/Lysa's not at fault, and then Sansa says that the "truth" is LF's in denial and Lysa went psycho and committed suicide or something, so everyone thinks that LF was in deeply love with Lysa and suspicion on him decreases.

Very likely. I guess they both prepare it. LF tells some bullshit story that's too romantic/hard to believe/whatever, and then Alayne "tells the truth", saying a version of the death that's easier to swallow and probably makes LF looks like a loving husband.

Goes to show awful TV and movies still tend to be in showing female desire, when scenes in which females are passive and emotionless while guys are kissing them but don't push them away after a second are taken by some of the viewers as romantic kisses that they're enjoying, when we don't have the POV in a book where the character is thinking something like "WTF is this now... ugh, awkward... and his lips are tasting of [insert random taste]." The way people reacted to the Gale/Katniss kiss in Catching Fire also comes to mind.

The book and show work under a different canon. The thoughts of BookSansa may not apply to ShowSansa.

Next episode will clearly cover the substance of AFFC Sansa I, and at least some of the content of AFFC Alayne I, though not necessarily the whole thing.

Well, it's the meeting with Nestor Royce but with some of the characters of the Lords Declarant meeting instead. And we also have Littlefinger's line about how defensible the Eyre is from previous episodes. So, who knows... if there is no Harry the Hair, they might even burn through a lot of her AFFC material in just one episode

[The Fenris Wolf]

Well, most sex crimes are dealt with on the state level in the US, meaning there are 50 different legal definitions surround "sexual violence." I do believe rape is mostly defined as penetration in the absence of consent, or consent obtained with threat of violence. There is also "statutory rape," which means a sexual act is defined by law as rape, even if it was otherwise consensual. Mostly statutory rape is related to "age of consent," which varies state by state. Meaning a consensual relationship between a 14 year old and a 21 year old can be prosecuted. I know some states extend the definition past age and include relationship of authority as a type of rape. For example, a high school teacher no matter how young compared to his or her students, is always in a position of authority over them and any sexual relationship could be prosecuted.

Regardless, there are certainly other laws that protect against sexual violence that doesn't include explicit penetration. Instead, terms like "sexual harassment," "sexual battery," or "sexual assault" are the legal definitions. Long story short, most obvious acts of sexual violence are prosecutable under some aspect of state or federal law. Certainly sex traffickers would not be able to skirt by technicalities.

The biggest problem with sexual violence in America is not in the wording of the law, but in proving an encounter was in fact non-consenual. In a lot of cases, the only witness to the assault was the victim herself. However, when a perpetrator is questioned, he claims the sex was consensual. Without any other evidence, most juries cannot find the person guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt," especially if drugs and alcohol were involved.

To tie this back to Sansa and Littlefinger, yeah, that kiss would totally get him locked up in America due to Sansa's age.

I do wish the show had made the lack of consent clearer. A couple lines of protest after the fact would have gotten the point across. Or a different angle where we see Sansa's face reacting in shock.

You gave a perfect summary of rape / sexual violence laws in America. Still I hate to beat a dead horse, but I think it's important to remember that though what was going on between LF and Sansa could be prosecuted here, that doesn't mean ANYTHING regarding the laws and customs of Westeros. Ned Stark executed men caught on his lands that were fugitives from the Night's Watch, and no one ever questioned his right in doing so. Could you imagine a governor or senator trying something like that today? "Well you see, the local police department in Podunk caught this guy who has been AWOL from his Army unit for the past six months. So I drove down there, picked him up, and brought him back to the capital. Then I put him in front of some witnesses in front of the capital building, and shot him." It's absurd on it's face. There are any number of constitutional violations going on there, plus questions of public safety (discharging a firearm in a public place), due process, inevitable discussions of why he was AWOL in the first place. None of that is ever considered when it's Eddard Stark, because that's just how things are done in Westeros.

All I'm saying is that if we're going to try and bring modern feminist theory to bear and deconstruct all male/female relationships in GoT, we may as well use modern consitutional or legal theories when discussing the behavior of lords vis a vis their vassals and serfs.

[Newstar]

The biggest concern I have is that Sansa's TWoW arc is going to be spoiled in season 5, well before the earliest possible completion date of the book.

You say that like it's a bad thing. By 2015, GRRM will have let 10 years elapse with no news of Sansa. 10 years. If he lets D&D beat him to the punch, he'll have no one to blame but himself. I'll be first in line to drink GRRM's tears if that happens.

The funny thing is that if TWOW remains unreleased by the time Season 5 rolls around, we'll have no way of knowing whether the new material is TWOW stuff or Qarth-style filler. I am cautiously optimistic that we're zipping through Sansa's AFFC arc because it means that they're barreling ahead to get to TWOW territory...although they could just do what they did with Bran (who's only appearing in four eps this season) and slow her arc to a crawl in Season 5, or what they did with Arya this season (stretch a thin bit of material from the books over several episodes with lots of philosophical conversations and plot detours and such).

As for the kiss, because we can't access any character's thoughts on a kiss while it's happening, body language of the actor playing the kissee counts a lot. There are ways to suggest with body language that the kissee is not into it without showing overt struggling or shoving the kisser away. Is the kissee relaxed or tense? Are they leaning into or out of the kiss? Do they freeze up when kissed and stay frozen (as opposed to the whole freezing in shock at first and then melting in the kisser's embrace and such)? Is their body language self-protective at all? And so on.

The interesting thing about the Sansa kiss is that as it appears in the episode, Sansa's body language seems more relaxed: she's leaning into the kiss, her eyes are closed and relaxed, and you can really only see the actors' heads and shoulders (much like the Joffrey/Sansa kiss). However, there's a still of the LF/Sansa kiss, showing a different story. Sansa's eyes are screwed shut in pain or discomfort, and you can clearly see her arm in front of her chest as if she's bracing herself or trying to protect herself. So it really might be that the acting/directing didn't match up with the intent of the writers.

[Annara Snow]

The book and show work under a different canon. The thoughts of BookSansa may not apply to ShowSansa.

You're right, maybe show!LF does not like to chew mint. :)

[ugashep]

Annara Snow,

In common law countries, the U.S., U.K., Commonwealth territories, the traditional definition of rape requires "penetration" and the "slightest penetration completes the crime", again that is part of the definition of "rape" traditionally and in most cases remains so today. Keep in mind however that pretty much every example you give is a serious crime in the U.S. We call human trafficking either "human trafficking" or "slavery". When it is a prepubescent child who is the victim we call it "child molestation" or some variant thereof. If it is a post puberty but under 18 teenager victim attacked by an adult, even if it is would otherwise be "consensual" if the victim was not under 18, we still call it "statutory rape". We do not get really broad with the term "coercion" as it relates to rape, the term certainly covers violence, direct, and threatened (express or implied) which is what I meant when I referred to "threat of violence" before but other laws address the coercion of sex through financial or some other kinds of coercion for example, anti-blackmail laws, anti-pandering/prostitution laws, anti-sexual harassment laws, etc. Unwanted touching of the genitals without penetration is usually prosecuted as "sexual battery" or something similar. To the extent you have been arguing purely that Sansa's under 18 age status will always make it rape, yes in the modern world that's true, things were different however in the Middle Ages the period on earth which most closely parellels Westeros. Back then most people couldn't expect to live past 40, so the appropriate age for the concept of "consent" was a lot earlier, likewise things are different in Westeros. The age question aside, I think the books have certainly laid the groundwork that a consensual relationship between Sansa and LF is a possibility, however gross it is to many of us. And judging by the reactions to the idea on the forum it would certainly fit the "controversial with some elements of the fanbase" remark.

[Mladen]

And here I have to step in with that polite reminder that the thread you are posting in is about Sansa, not the legal definition of rape. If you want to discuss that, I suggest General Chatter where you can discuss as much as you want what constitutes rape according to this and that law. This isn't thread for that.

So, stick to Sansa, before this small derailment of several posts gets out of control.

[Annara Snow]

Annara Snow,

In common law countries, the U.S., U.K., Commonwealth territories, the traditional definition of rape requires "penetration" and the "slightest penetration completes the crime. Keep in mind however that pretty much every example you give is a serious crime in the U.S. We call human trafficking "human trafficking" or "slavery" when it is a prepubescent child who is the victim we call it "child molestation" or some variant thereof, if it is an under 18 teenager victim attacked by an adult, even if it is would otherwise be "consensual" if the victim was not under 18, we still call it "statutory rape". We do not get really broad with the term "coercion" it certainly cover violence, direct, and threatened (express or implied) but other laws address the coercion of sex through financial or some other kinds of coercion for example, blackmail, pandering, sexual harassment, etc. Unwanted touching of the genitals without penetration is usually prosecuted as "sexual battery" or something similar. To the extent you have been arguing purely that Sansa's under 18 age status will always make it rape, yes in the modern world that's true, things were different however in the Middle Ages the period on earth which most closely parellels Westeros. Back then most people couldn't expect to live past 40, so the appropriate age for the concept of "consent" was a lot earlier, likewise things are different in Westeros.

Uh, I haven't argued that at all. Maybe you should re-read my posts.

What is defined as "rape" and what "sexual assault" or "battery" etc. is not really the point. All of these fall into the non-consensual category. I was arguing against the idea that Sansa is in her position to be LF's "partner in crime", or have a "consensual love affair" with him, as some here have been claiming, both of which would imply freedom and choice, with the former also implying an equal relationship.

[Colonel Green]

The funny thing is that if TWOW remains unreleased by the time Season 5 rolls around, we'll have no way of knowing whether the new material is TWOW stuff or Qarth-style filler. I am cautiously optimistic that we're zipping through Sansa's AFFC arc because it means that they're barreling ahead to get to TWOW territory...although they could just do what they did with Bran (who's only appearing in four eps this season) and slow her arc to a crawl in Season 5, or what they did with Arya this season (stretch a thin bit of material from the books over several episodes with lots of philosophical conversations and plot detours and such).

Compared to Bran or Arya, though, there was no inherent reason that Sansa's story needed to be structured like this. Bran has, let's face it, almost no adaptable story in ASOS or ADWD, and what little he has in ASOS is intrinsically tied to events in Jon's story which have to occur at a certain point. Arya's story, likewise, is tied fairly tightly into the Red Wedding at a certain point. Conversely, there was no real structural reason that Sansa's ASOS material had to be finished by episode 7 (particularly when they omitted things like the Fingers), so it would have to have been a deliberate choice on their part to go through the material at this pace.

If they came up with this story structure and then planned to spend season 5 running on the fumes of her last AFFC chapter, that's pretty awful planning.

[Asha's Suckling Babe]

I'm not seeing the similarity. They made Shae/Tyrion a genuine romance in order to make Tyrion look better and less delusional. Why on Earth would they be trying to make Sansa have a "love affair" with LF of all people? To make her look worse? To make LF look like a good guy? Nah.

I also find it hilarious that a couple of weeks ago, people were thinking the show was somehow paving the way for Sansa hook up with Tyrion in the end, now she's going to hook up with LF... If Marillion was in the show in his original role, I bet people would think she was going to hook up with him, too, unless Sansa karate-chopped him or something. :lol: And this on the same forum where a lot of people were arguing last week that the show will only have LF kiss her on a cheek or hug her, while others have claimed that the casting of a 40-year old as Sandor is a sure sign that there is never ever going to be anything romantic between him and Sansa...

I don't have an answer for this, but then again I find most of the changes they make utterly ridiculous. So I would not anything past them, really. And they seem to want to add 'romantic' scenes (Shae is in love, Talisa whole storyline, even Ramsay has a girlfriend)

The example of Sansa and Tyrion you yourself give is a good one; it seems like they wanted to make fans believe their marriage could 'work out', only to destroy it few scenes later. They clearly wanted to play with some will they/won't they 'intrigue' :ack: . So I would not be surprised if something similar was done with LF.

[Newstar]

And yet Dany had a relationship with Drogo billed by GRRM as a consensual love affair and one of equality, despite the many factors involved--power imbalance, powerful man, helpless and friendless girl, no power to refuse sexual advances, etc.--that would render Dany's consent meaningless, even though Annara Snow has argued that those same factors mean that LF and Sansa's relationship could never be a treated as a consensual love affair in the books.

Strictly speaking, Sansa is no more free to fall in love with LF than Dany was truly free to fall in love with Drogo. And yet the books accept that Dany did, so I can't argue that Sansa necessarily won't for that reason.

I'm not saying that LF and Sansa will have any sort of consensual love affair. God forbid! It's only that it's a terrible argument that they can't have a consensual love affair because of things like power imbalance, which applied equally to Dany/Drogo. Nor is it any argument to claim that they won't because GRRM has not written them as sexy or romantic (as opposed to the profoundly unsexy altar sex scene, I guess), or that they won't because it would have creepy or abusive beginnings (as opposed to Drogo raping Dany until she starts to enjoy it).

[Annara Snow]

I don't have an answer for this, but then again I find most of the changes they make utterly ridiculous. So I would not anything past them, really. And they seem to want to add 'romantic' scenes (Shae is in love, Talisa whole storyline, even Ramsay has a girlfriend)

The example of Sansa and Tyrion you yourself give is a good one; it seems like they wanted to make fans believe their marriage could 'work out', only to destroy it few scenes later. They clearly wanted to play with some will they/won't they 'intrigue' :ack: . So I would not be surprised if something similar was done with LF.

Well, as you said, nothing came out of it and it ended just like in the book. Sansa did not fall in love with Tyrion, surprise, surprise, the marriage did not 'work out'. Tyrion is in love with Shae in the books and believes they have something; Robb did marry a girl he wasn't supposed to, who he claims to love in the book (why fans prefer to think he was lying and only ever told the truth when he said that he also had to marry her because of honor, I don't know), even though it wasn't a terribly cliche romance as in the show... How would any of this be similar to Sansa somehow being portrayed as a completely free and equal partner to LF who decides to start sleeping with him because she finds him so attractive, or whatever? Even if that kind of plot made any sense under her circumstances. And why would the show runners even want to do that? It's pretty easy to see what they were going for with Shae or Talisa, but what motive could they have for that kind of change?

[Annara Snow]

Compared to Bran or Arya, though, there was no inherent reason that Sansa's story needed to be structured like this. Bran has, let's face it, almost no adaptable story in ASOS or ADWD, and what little he has in ASOS is intrinsically tied to events in Jon's story which have to occur at a certain point. Arya's story, likewise, is tied fairly tightly into the Red Wedding at a certain point. Conversely, there was no real structural reason that Sansa's ASOS material had to be finished by episode 7 (particularly when they omitted things like the Fingers), so it would have to have been a deliberate choice on their part to go through the material at this pace.

If they came up with this story structure and then planned to spend season 5 running on the fumes of her last AFFC chapter, that's pretty awful planning.

:agree: It doesn't make any sense to rush her story like this if they are just going to have to make stuff up for the entire next season. There was no need for her to be in 8 out of 10 episodes. The AFFC material is thin as it, and even if they had finished season 4 with Lysa's murder, I think they would have needed to do at least the chapter that was moved from ADWD in season 5; but I'm starting to think that they'll do a lot of TWOW material with her the next year.

Personally, I think that they figured, knowing the basics of her storyarc, and possibly having read some of Sansa's TWOW chapters (if GRRM has written multiple Sansa chapters already) that she has a big storyline coming up and they decided they needed to start her storyline earlier instead of cramming it later on.

[Newstar]

Well, as you said, nothing came out of it and it ended just like in the book. Sansa did not fall in love with Tyrion, surprise, surprise, the marriage did not 'work out'. Tyrion is in love with Shae in the books and believes they have something; Robb did marry a girl he wasn't supposed to, who he claims to love in the book (why fans prefer to think he was lying and only ever told the truth when he said that he also had to marry her because of honor, I don't know), even though it wasn't a terribly cliche romance as in the show... How would any of this be similar to Sansa somehow being portrayed as a completely free and equal partner to LF who decides to start sleeping with him because she finds him so attractive, or whatever? Even if that kind of plot made any sense under her circumstances. And why would the show runners even want to do that? It's pretty easy to see what they were going for with Shae or Talisa, but what motive could they have for that kind of change?

The mistake you're making is that the speculation about Sansa and LF is in reference to something that may happen in future books, not something that's already happened and to which we know the ending. We already know what happened to Tyrion/Shae and Robb/Jeyne. You're suggesting a LF/Sansa relationship would be a "change" from the books, when you have no idea what will happen beyond ADWD and can't come up with a single compelling argument why a consensual LF/Sansa love relationship could never happen.

I mean, I'd love proof that it could never happen, but creepiness and consensual love affairs are not mutually exclusive. As SanSan shippers are so fond of saying in relation to another relationship, it might be creepy, but pretty much everything is in this series. Abuse victims fall in love with their abusers. Rape victims fall in love with their rapists. Captives fall in love with their captors. Patrons marry their sex slaves and it's treated as romantic. And so on.

[Colonel Green]

Personally, I think that they figured, knowing the basics of her storyarc, and possibly having read some of Sansa's TWOW chapters (if GRRM has written multiple Sansa chapters already) that she has a big storyline coming up and they decided they needed to start her storyline earlier instead of cramming it later on.

If they end up going that way and TWOW isn't out by then (which is better-than-decent odds), we might get a "Mercy"-style chapter dump to prevent the TV adaptation from preceding the "real" story.

It will make next season's casting and any Sansa filming locations very interesting.

[juanml82]

Personally, I think that they figured, knowing the basics of her storyarc, and possibly having read some of Sansa's TWOW chapters (if GRRM has written multiple Sansa chapters already) that she has a big storyline coming up and they decided they needed to start her storyline earlier instead of cramming it later on.

Or they need to make room for all the new characters and locations of season 5. And they maybe planning to adapt her TWOW chapters next season or put a bit of TWOW, a bit of filler and a bit of reimagining.

I hope they move into TWOW territory, but we just don't know.