[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa X: Cold never bothered her anyway...

[Asha's Suckling Babe]

Well, as you said, nothing came out of it and it ended just like in the book. Sansa did not fall in love with Tyrion, surprise, surprise, the marriage did not 'work out'. Tyrion is in love with Shae in the books and believes they have something; Robb did marry a girl he wasn't supposed to, who he claims to love in the book (why fans prefer to think he was lying and only ever told the truth when he said that he also had to marry her because of honor, I don't know), even though it wasn't a terribly cliche romance as in the show... How would any of this be similar to Sansa somehow being portrayed as a completely free and equal partner to LF who decides to start sleeping with him because she finds him so attractive, or whatever? Even if that kind of plot made any sense under her circumstances. And why would the show runners even want to do that? It's pretty easy to see what they were going for with Shae or Talisa, but what motive could they have for that kind of change?

First I feel the need to say, I genuinly hope that the show makes it as clear as it was in the books how uncomfortable Sansa is with LF's kisses. I'm merely voicing concerns.

Also I absolutely did not mean they would start sleeping together (because :ack: ) or that they would be free equal partners (because they obviously are not, she is his prisoner). I merely meant the showrunners might make it look like she likes him, or they will keep it ambiguous how she feels. Because they will get exciting will they/won't they 'intrigue' :ack:, sappy 'romantic' moments :shocked: and finally shock value when they go to book canon like nothing happened <_<.

And of course I'm always hoping they stick as close to the source material as they can, because I love the books. Especially Sansa's arc.

eta:spelling

[Newstar]

If they end up going that way and TWOW isn't out by then (which is better-than-decent odds), we might get a "Mercy"-style chapter dump to prevent the TV adaptation from preceding the "real" story.

I guess we can keep our eyes peeled for a Sansa/Alayne chapter dump in the weeks leading up to Season 5's release...assuming TWOW isn't released by then, and a TWOW release pre-April 2015, as awesome as it would be, is looking unlikely. I'd thought until the last few eps aired that Season 6 would be the first seasons that would really get into TWOW material, but it's looking increasingly likely that Season 5 will be the season where the show officially passes the books...for at least a few characters, anyway. I find it an exciting and a terrifying prospect.

Maybe it's only the relatively pokey pacing of Seasons 2 and 3, but I've gotten the sense in Season 4 that the writers are really cooking with gas and moving full speed ahead. I stated on another thread that it seems like in this season the writers are really not fucking around: they're tying up loose ends left and right, they're even less bothered with mystery, subtlety and ambiguity than they were before (making it immediately crystal clear who killed Joffrey), they're resolving mysteries (one of the writers stated in a recent interview that Syrio was dead...no teasing, no hinting, just boom, dead), they're fairly bludgeoning us with post-ADWD foreshadowing, and they are plunging into AFFC/ADWD where certain characters are concerned. Maybe it's the possibility of only having seven seasons to finish this thing, or maybe it's the result of whatever GRRM told the writers in that meeting in the spring of 2013 (around when they were writing Season 4), but this season, I get the feeling that the writers are really gearing up to forge ahead into TWOW territory sooner rather than later and damn the torpedoes.

I know this prospect might give a lot of book fans the vapours, but I'm not nearly so particular. Then again, I'm very doubtful the series will ever be finished by GRRM, so...

It will make next season's casting and any Sansa filming locations very interesting.

Oh, indeed. /Omar

[Le Cygne]

Ages, she's between 15 and 16 on the show (more than two years have passed and she started the show after her 13th birthday), she's legal to do what she wants sexually in much of Western Europe at 15, and the rest of Europe and most of the US at 16. But I don't see how the modern context is relevant to the discussion. Sansa isn't the reader's daughter or sister or niece or whatever, she's a warg living in a fantasy world, complete with dragons, and an author who sets ages for sexuality very young, and doesn't shy away from large age gaps.

In Westeros, her age isn't the problem with the kiss, it's that she's Littlefinger's captive. She's got no choice, he's murdered two people in cold blood right in front of her, threatened her, shown no respect for her as a person, and is responsible for the misery and death of her whole family, not to mention the price on her head that limits her options drastically. If she's not afraid, she's stupid. Take your pick. I don't think book Sansa is stupid. She's doing the smartest thing, biding her time, gaining his trust, surviving, and learning to navigate her world.

I don't want to get into all the word parsing of how a blush means she digs Littlefinger (for an example of what a Sansa blush means, look at the forced wedding, she blushes and the text says that means she is "mortified"). I've seen the "evidence" and am not impressed. Moreover, she's focusing on kissing another guy. Not exactly the thing to do when you want someone else. And we know at least as far as the latest chapter, she wants to get away from Littlefinger. When Bronze Yohn comes, two things come to mind for her, the Hound, and Winterfell, and that = she wants to beg him to protect her from Littlefinger, but she's afraid.

Now if someone were to come along that she does trust without reservation (Sandor, her brothers, her sister, Brienne perhaps)... Or if she finds a way out of her mess herself... (I'm partial to the second option myself...)

[Grail King]

@ Juanml82

Grail King, on 20 May 2014 - 5:47 PM, said:

I took it different when he answered what do we do to those who kill the ones we love, I think her smile outside is hiding in her mind I know what you want sucker.

Maybe.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But, then again, we have the previous Sansa reaction to Robin's idea of placing a Moon Door in the actual Winterfell. In other words, if LF wants vengeance for Catelyn, why would anyone think Sansa doesn't want the same thing?

Oh she wants vengeance / justice; I just think show Sansa is thinking quicker than book Sansa and she is putting some of the pieces together, not totally there yet, but I think she's going to use him to get it and make him and others pay.

[Le Cygne]

I merely meant the showrunners might make it look like she likes him, or they will keep it ambiguous how she feels. Because they will get exiting will they/won't they 'intrigue' :ack:, sappy 'romantic' moments :shocked: and finally shock value when they go to book canon like nothing happened <_<.

Yep, that's what I think they may do. They take Sansa on dead ends and use her to prop up other characters because I don't think they find the character or her story very interesting, or they don't think the audience will for some reason.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I think Sansa will kill Littlefinger (I'm guessing she will poison him or something) and when she does it she will say "what do we do to those that hurt the ones we love?" meaning her father.

[Le Cygne]

The Florian and Jonquil story parallels her previous belief that all knights were good, such as one might believe that cops are all good, only to find they are not, but still hope that there are some who will stand up and be counted. This is not childish.

Yeah, they took away her songs, because they thought they were childish, but they weren't. How did they miss that, who knows. But they gutted her when they did that. That line about real life being boring or whatever, that didn't sound like ASOS Sansa to me. The point is, she's keeping this ideal of a better way (that's even in the hymn she sings) alive, how is that a bad thing? It's not.

Also, just remembering this, Old Nan is the one who told them the stories. Even Jon remembered. Old Nan is childish. Right. A Song of Ice and Fire. She plays the harp and sings. Someone else did, Rhaegar... He's childish, too.

[Le Cygne]

I think Sansa will kill Littlefinger (I'm guessing she will poison him or something) and when she does it she will say "what do we do to those that hurt the ones we love?" meaning her father.

I always thought perhaps Sweetrobin would help her, there seems to be an alliance being built there in the books. I wonder about the meaning of the slap. It's filmed like the Arya slap. I think both slaps were OOC, but...

The Arya slap seemed like teaching a life lesson, one that would help keep her alive. Arya in fact seems more positively disposed toward the Hound after that.

The Sweetrobin slap could be the same, don't destroy Winterfell, build an alliance with Sansa, and in the books (likely in the show) we see he's very positively disposed toward Sansa after that, too.

(I'll put the rest on the Arya thread...)

[Newstar]

Yeah, they took away her songs, because they though they were childish, but they weren't. How did they miss that, who knows. But they gutted her when they did that. That line about real life being boring or whatever, that didn't sound like ASOS Sansa to me. The point is, she's keeping this ideal of a better way (that's even in the hymn she sings) alive, how is that a bad thing? It's not.

Sansa's love of songs really couldn't have worked in the adaptation, at least once they decided to age her up from 11 to 13. The show's made a lot of changes I scratch my head over, but that particular change made perfect sense.

[Alayne Stone]

IMHO, it's because D&D have the subtlety of a sledgehammer and lack experience in screenwritting.

Seeing, again, as I have nothing to back-up my points besides circumstantial evidence and gut instinct, all I can say is that "they don't get her", "they don't like her, and "they can't convey her" are near identical interpretations of the same information and with ultimately the same outcome.

I'm torn. They can do subtle. They do it all the time. They've shown little ability to do subtle with Petyr or Sansa, however. On the other hand, an attempt to convey a subtle and complex relationship via the kiss has been met with significant viewer backlash that she should have been more obvious in how she pulled back, it wasn't clear enough, there should have been more resistance, etc., etc., etc. I had a foreign exchange film student friend tell me it's very American to need things like that spelled out. Maybe I should add a fourth to my list: "Audiences can't handle her."

Edit: Never get philosophical over wine.

[Le Cygne]

I hate when they say that America stuff, like we're all the same exact person.

[Asha's Suckling Babe]

I can see many posters have talked about the kiss and the slap but not much of the change in Robert's actions. I would have been less bothered by the slap (though it would be rather OOC for book!Sansa) if the scene would have otherwise played the same way. However the scenes in book and show give very different views of Sansa:

In the books I think there was some great symbolism in that scene, where Robert was a hostile threat attacking something dear to Sansa, her snow Winterfell. She fiercely responded to it by trying to seize his hand. This shows her being protective, and trying to stop an existing threat.

In the show the scene is completely different, Robert is trying to help Sansa improve Winterfell, with her permission, and he simply is too clumsy. And then she starts unreasonably blaming a child for what was clearly a mistake. (He doesn't start destroying it intentionally until after Sansa has unreasonably blamed him, and told him he has completely ruined it.) This shows her being unreasonably harsh and unforgiving, and being angry with someone who only tried to help her but failed.

Has a completely different feel to it, imo.

[Alayne Stone]

I can see many posters have talked about the kiss and the slap but not much of the change in Robert's actions. I would have been less bothered by the slap (though it would be rather OOC for book!Sansa) if the scene would have otherwise played the same way. However the scenes in book and show give very different views of Sansa:

In the books I think there was some great symbolism in that scene, where Robert was a hostile threat attacking something dear to Sansa, her snow Winterfell. She fiercely responded to it by trying to seize his hand. This shows her being protective, and trying to stop an existing threat.

In the show the scene is completely different, Robert is trying to help Sansa improve Winterfell, with her permission, and he simply is too clumsy. And then she starts unreasonably blaming a child for what was clearly a mistake. (He doesn't start destroying it intentionally until after Sansa has unreasonably blamed him, and told him he has completely ruined it.) This shows her being unreasonably harsh and unforgiving, and being angry with someone who only tried to help her but failed.

Has a completely different feel to it, imo.

If you want a Sweetrobin thread, go start your own. :P

j/k, of course. I was upset in the moment that they had her so blatantly choose an accusatory word. My Sansa is still the lady armored in courtesy. I got over it when she made her embarrassed explanation to Petyr that she was trying to remember Winterfell. Then I remembered how emotional it was for her and let her have her lapse.

[Newstar]

I agree with everyone saying the slap was OOC for Book Sansa.

In the books I think there was some great symbolism in that scene, where Robert was a hostile threat attacking something dear to Sansa, her snow Winterfell. She fiercely responded to it by trying to seize his hand. This shows her being protective, and trying to stop an existing threat.

In the show the scene is completely different, Robert is trying to help Sansa improve Winterfell, with her permission, and he simply is too clumsy. And then she starts unreasonably blaming a child for what was clearly a mistake. (He doesn't start destroying it intentionally until after Sansa has unreasonably blamed him, and told him he has completely ruined it.) This shows her being unreasonably harsh and unforgiving, and being angry with someone who only tried to help her but failed.

That's a good point. To be fair to Sansa, though, she was very sweet and friendly with Sweetrobin until he accidentally destroyed part of it. Her reaction was disproportionate, sure, especially given that Sweetrobin's a younger child, but she was trying.

Has a completely different feel to it, imo.

It was a little jarring to see Sansa going from lightly chatting to Sweetrobin to arguing with him heatedly, and that argument escalating into Sweetrobin destroying Winterfell in a rage and Sansa slapping him, since in the books Sweetrobin just came stomping over. It reminded me of the scene with Sansa and Joffrey at the Trident: it starts out all sweet and friendly with Joffrey eager to impress Sansa, and spirals down from there.

[mambru]

Why wouldn't that be consensual? Shae and Tyrion are consensual, Jamie and Cersei are consensual, Prince Oberyn and Ellaria are consensual. There's significant power and prestige differences in all those relationships.

Unless you can show that the powerful half of any of those couples deliberately had three (count them) people murdered in front of their powerless partner, and deliberately incriminated their powerless partner in those murders so that there would be no safety for her anywhere except by slavishly doing whatever the powerful partner said, and the powerful partner openly threatens to kill anyone the powerless partner betrays him to (even inadvertently), AND the powerful partner demands the powerless partner think of him at all times as her father (a traditionally submissive and obedient role) AND at the same time abuses that submissive obedience by making ever more sexual demands that are taboo for a father to request - then all of those couples are VERY different from Sansa/LF.

IMO, the real comparison is a lot closer to Craster/Daughter (as Annara Snow mentioned)...which IMO can be considered consensual by NO stretch of the term.

[acosta]

I hate when they say that America stuff, like we're all the same exact person.

Yeah, I'm American and she seemed pretty grossed out to me. Look at her face:

http://d1mxyp5ceukbya.cloudfront.net/images/game-of-thrones-season-4-episode-7-sansa-littlefinger-kiss-hbo.jpg

[Bear Island]

It's a generalisation, and Americans make them too. We all do. It's true that audiences in different countries expect different things from film and books, though. You only have to look at American comedy shows vs UK comedy shows vs German comedy shows to see that every country has different ideas about concepts in media.

Of course a lot of Americans don't need or want everything spelled out for them.

I think it was explicitly evident that she didn't consent to or enjoy the kiss. I don't see how anyone could look at it and think 'Yup, she was totally up for it'.

[Alayne Stone]

It's a generalisation, and Americans make them too. We all do. It's true that audiences in different countries expect different things from film and books, though. You only have to look at American comedy shows vs UK comedy shows vs German comedy shows to see that every country has different ideas about concepts in media.

Of course a lot of Americans don't need or want everything spelled out for them.

I think it was explicitly evident that she didn't consent to or enjoy the kiss. I don't see how anyone could look at it and think 'Yup, she was totally up for it'.

Agree TOTALLY on your better explanation for the point that I was making. Uh, but have you read the last thirteen pages re: the kiss? I don't get the controversy either, but I was thoroughly rebuked the last time I brought it up after reading some freak outs about it.

[juanml82]

Ages, she's between 15 and 16 on the show (more than two years have passed and she started the show after her 13th birthday), she's legal to do what she wants sexually in much of Western Europe at 15, and the rest of Europe and most of the US at 16. But I don't see how the modern context is relevant to the discussion. Sansa isn't the reader's daughter or sister or niece or whatever, she's a warg living in a fantasy world, complete with dragons, and an author who sets ages for sexuality very young, and doesn't shy away from large age gaps.

In Westeros, her age isn't the problem with the kiss, it's that she's Littlefinger's captive. She's got no choice, he's murdered two people in cold blood right in front of her, threatened her, shown no respect for her as a person, and is responsible for the misery and death of her whole family, not to mention the price on her head that limits her options drastically. If she's not afraid, she's stupid. Take your pick. I don't think book Sansa is stupid. She's doing the smartest thing, biding her time, gaining his trust, surviving, and learning to navigate her world.

I don't want to get into all the word parsing of how a blush means she digs Littlefinger (for an example of what a Sansa blush means, look at the forced wedding, she blushes and the text says that means she is "mortified"). I've seen the "evidence" and am not impressed. Moreover, she's focusing on kissing another guy. Not exactly the thing to do when you want someone else. And we know at least as far as the latest chapter, she wants to get away from Littlefinger. When Bronze Yohn comes, two things come to mind for her, the Hound, and Winterfell, and that = she wants to beg him to protect her from Littlefinger, but she's afraid.

Now if someone were to come along that she does trust without reservation (Sandor, her brothers, her sister, Brienne perhaps)... Or if she finds a way out of her mess herself... (I'm partial to the second option myself...)

Remember this thread is about the show character, not the book character. Show!Sansa hasn't met Bronze Yohn yet and we don't know how she'll react to him.

Seeing, again, as I have nothing to back-up my points besides circumstantial evidence and gut instinct, all I can say is that "they don't get her", "they don't like her, and "they can't convey her" are near identical interpretations of the same information and with ultimately the same outcome.

I'm torn. They can do subtle. They do it all the time. They've shown little ability to do subtle with Petyr or Sansa, however. On the other hand, an attempt to convey a subtle and complex relationship via the kiss has been met with significant viewer backlash that she should have been more obvious in how she pulled back, it wasn't clear enough, there should have been more resistance, etc., etc., etc. I had a foreign exchange film student friend tell me it's very American to need things like that spelled out. Maybe I should add a fourth to my list: "Audiences can't handle her."

Edit: Never get philosophical over wine.

I'm not sure that they can do subtle. The actors can, the directors can, even the costume designers can. But D&D? I don't their part of the work (production, screenwritting and one episode per season) manage to successfully pull subtle stuff, nor the character's internal conflicts.

Yeah, I'm American and she seemed pretty grossed out to me. Look at her face:

http://d1mxyp5ceukbya.cloudfront.net/images/game-of-thrones-season-4-episode-7-sansa-littlefinger-kiss-hbo.jpg

And yet that shot didn't make out of the editing room. The editor looked at it, D&D probably looked at it, the episode director might have looked at it, and they've decided against showing it.

And they did it for a reason.

[joachim]

She looked appropriately repulsed to me after it happened.