Ser Leftwich Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Ned's response about the Lannister's coming with Robert:Ned grimaced at that. There was small love between him and the queen’s family, Catelyn knew. The Lannisters of Casterly Rock had come late to Robert’s cause, when victory was all but certain, and he had never forgiven them. “Well, if the price for Robert’s company is an infestation of Lannisters, so be it. It sounds as though Robert is bringing half his court.”- AGoT p. 27 Ned is willing to pay that price. Later he even says he would happy to see the children: “It will be good to see the children. The youngest was still sucking at the Lannister woman’s teat the last time I saw him. He must be, what, five by now?”When Robert arrives and immediately wants to go down to see Lyanna's grave and reminisces about the past, after that Ned grows concerned. Ned probably thought that Robert had forgotten about the past and grown to love his wife and children, when, in fact, Robert still nightly dreams of killing Rhaegar and generally hating Targaryens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 ^It also explains Ned's distress over the Dany situation. Robert clearly can't let go of the past, which means Jon is never really safe. As for Jon's melancholy disposition, it's a good thing Ned never let him near a harp...would have been quite obvious. That boy is his father's son Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Aerys had asked for the heads of Ned and Robert, not for the two men to be send to him. Most likely Aerys and his paranoia had caused a panick attack, and not Aerys was trying to finish it all, to make a statement. There were still heirs left for both seats (Winterfell for Benjen, Storm's End for Stannis). Whether Aerys truly believed that no one would complain if he killed four of such highborns, I don't know. Perhaps he simply wanted to believe it very badly.. Both of you, nicely found :)Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Nice. I like this. This reminds me, I noticed a bunch of parallels between Jon and Viserys in AGoT, Jon I and AGoT, Daenerys V last month. The number and consistency of the parallels is startling. LinkOn your Viserys/Jon parallels, great analysis.Having traits of both father and uncle, (especially the latter), I wonder if Dany herself wouldn't recognize something "familiar"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Yes I was thinking something like this as well. GRRM must have meant something by putting Starks and Bael in the same sentence with relation to Mance. Glad you agree :) I love this quote from Roberts first night at Winterfell. It does make perfect sense. The first time I read it I was thinking that NEd was mad at Robert for some reason, that just his being there was pissing Ned off slightly, but then at the same time it is during the first few chapters that we find out NEd and Robert are best friends. I was confused by it, but now it is all clear :) Edit: also what is up with the quotes on posts? is everyone else just blending together with no quote boxes?No, the quote thing is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 I always though Ned's nervousness was due to the presence of Lannisters as well as that he expected nothing good out of the visit. Yet, in that prospect it makes even more sense... and even more that both POV's (that one and the one to decide Jon's fate -wall) were not Ned's. I wouldn't mind if Mance has some Stark genes... yet... I think I'd prefer to know that the freefolk are out of the nepotism that floods westeros... the free folk are supposed to be free and independent. their own value the one to define them. If mance has king's blood (in the term of genes) then that means that even there only the highborn prevail... and I don't quite like that...It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. They just found the most direct descendant of the Plantaganets in Australia, but it probably doesn't mean anything tangible to them.And the longer Rickon is away, given his youth when he left, he may not have any real sentimental connections to his family, or that is the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Harman Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 “I see.” His uncle glanced over his shoulder at the raised table at the far end of the hall. “My brother does not seem very festive tonight.” Jon had noticed that too. A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes. His father was observing all the courtesies, but there was tightness in him that Jon had seldom seen before. He said little, looking out over the hall with hooded eyes, seeing nothing. Two seats away, the king had been drinking heavily all night. His broad face was flushed behind his great black beard. - AGoT p. 53 Why is Ned so "tight," why the "hooded eyes"? Maybe Robert and Jon are in the same room for the first time and Ned is nervous. I think there are a couple of much more obvious explanations for Ned's stress than worry that Robert will somehow see through his claim that Jon is his own bastard son: Winterfell is suffering "an infestation of Lannisters," as he put it, and he's just been asked to travel to King's Landing and serve as Hand of the King, a job he desperately does not want and isn't sure he can refuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 So I was just re-reading DwD last night, Lady Dustin's conversation with Reek in WF. Is it possible that Rickon Stark was thinking of hooking up Lyanna and Rhaegar, that those were his Southron Ambitions? He knew Elia was sick and he knew Targs like multiple marriages....Just thinking out loud here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 So I was just re-reading DwD last night, Lady Dustin's conversation with Reek in WF. Is it possible that Rickon Stark was thinking of hooking up Lyanna and Rhaegar, that those were his Southron Ambitions? He knew Elia was sick and he knew Targs like multiple marriages....Just thinking out loud here.... He knew about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna (I suppose his sons told him) but by that time, Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert, who came up with the idea. So, there wasn't so much he could have done. Whatsoever, people often talk about how Rickard rode to KL to save Brandon, but no one says "to save Brandon and Lyanna". There is a small little chance Rickard knew Lyanna was fine, maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 So I was just re-reading DwD last night, Lady Dustin's conversation with Reek in WF. Is it possible that Rickon Stark was thinking of hooking up Lyanna and Rhaegar, that those were his Southron Ambitions? He knew Elia was sick and he knew Targs like multiple marriages....Just thinking out loud here.... You mean proposing it post Elia/Rhaegar being married? Given her betrothal to Robert, I think that's unlikely (I think his ambitions were more to tie his family to the other major families, to start, Tully and Baratheon), but anything's possible I suppose. He knew about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna (I suppose his sons told him) but by that time, Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert, who came up with the idea. So, there wasn't so much he could have done. Whatsoever, people often talk about how Rickard rode to KL to save Brandon, but no one says "to save Brandon and Lyanna". There is a small little chance Rickard knew Lyanna was fine, maybe. I feel like if he knew, then Brandon should have had an inkling. Unless Brandon was just really hot blooded and didn't care either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 I need to provide a link to the tower of joy analysis, in my signature (and tag this thread.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 He knew about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna (I suppose his sons told him) but by that time, Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert, who came up with the idea. So, there wasn't so much he could have done. Whatsoever, people often talk about how Rickard rode to KL to save Brandon, but no one says "to save Brandon and Lyanna". There is a small little chance Rickard knew Lyanna was fine, maybe. You mean proposing it post Elia/Rhaegar being married? Given her betrothal to Robert, I think that's unlikely (I think his ambitions were more to tie his family to the other major families, to start, Tully and Baratheon), but anything's possible I suppose. I feel like if he knew, then Brandon should have had an inkling. Unless Brandon was just really hot blooded and didn't care either way. No I didn't mean after the tourney, I meant before. Brandon was engaged to Catelyn before then, that is when he told lady Dustin about his fathers Southron Ambitions, which is the reason he gave her for not being able to marry her (being a daughter of his fathers bannermen). So Rickard had Southron Ambitions before anything happened with Lyanna. Part of his plan was to marry Brandon to Catelyn.....maybe he had a wife in mind for Ned? Maybe it was Ashara, which might explain why Ned wanted to dance with her at the tourney, his father had told him his plans to marry them (maybe). And then his plan for Lyanna would also have been towards the south to marry her to Rhaegar, as I said before Elias health problems were not secret. "The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though....there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together...but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron Ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. " So She is saying that Rickrd had Southron Ambitions that would not be served by marrying BRandon to her. Which clearly means that Rickard had other southron ambitions that went beyond Brandon and Catelyn.........What could those have been other than marrying his children to southerners...very well born and high-ranking southerners it sounds like. If he was worried that one of his children marrying someone beneath him would harm the southron ambitions, then they sound like pretty high ambitions to me...like maybe he wanted to make his beautiful daughter a princess..you guys see what I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Well, indeed it was no secret that Elia was sick. Even Tywin hoped she would die so Rhaegar would marry Cersei instead. But, I don't think they were counting on Aerys' own wishes, though. He wanted a "dragon" bride for his son and Elia was the closest thing when they couldn't find any better. And Elia gave Rhaegar "dragon" children. Even marrying Cersei or Lyanna, their children wouldn't be King or Queen, only princess. Both of them would became nothing but glorified mistress or second wives. Tywin was more realistic hoping for a marriage with Visery, but Rickard apparently had other ideas. Either way, I don't see him sooo much bothered by the idea of Lyanna being with Rhaegar, though. So, who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 No I didn't mean after the tourney, I meant before. Brandon was engaged to Catelyn before then, that is when he told lady Dustin about his fathers Southron Ambitions, which is the reason he gave her for not being able to marry her (being a daughter of his fathers bannermen). So Rickard had Southron Ambitions before anything happened with Lyanna. Part of his plan was to marry Brandon to Catelyn.....maybe he had a wife in mind for Ned? Maybe it was Ashara, which might explain why Ned wanted to dance with her at the tourney, his father had told him his plans to marry them (maybe). And then his plan for Lyanna would also have been towards the south to marry her to Rhaegar, as I said before Elias health problems were not secret. "The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though....there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together...but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron Ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. " So She is saying that Rickrd had Southron Ambitions that would not be served by marrying BRandon to her. Which clearly means that Rickard had other southron ambitions that went beyond Brandon and Catelyn.........What could those have been other than marrying his children to southerners...very well born and high-ranking southerners it sounds like. If he was worried that one of his children marrying someone beneath him would harm the southron ambitions, then they sound like pretty high ambitions to me...like maybe he wanted to make his beautiful daughter a princess..you guys see what I mean? I doubt that Ned dancing with Ashara at Harrenhal was part of Rickards ambitions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 I doubt that Ned dancing with Ashara at Harrenhal was part of Rickards ambitions... Well that was just a loose example, which is why i said (maybe), but I do think, given what Lady Dustin said, that his ambitions were about marrying his children to prominent people in the south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Well that was just a loose example, which is why i said (maybe), but I do think, given what Lady Dustin said, that his ambitions were about marrying his children to prominent people in the south. I think it's the other way around. Ashara's father was looking for suitors for his daughter in Harrenhal. Ned's dancing with her was a coincidence. A favourable one, but coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 I doubt that Ned dancing with Ashara at Harrenhal was part of Rickards ambitions... I think it's the other way around. Ashara's father was looking for suitors for his daughter in Harrenhal. Ned's dancing with her was a coincidence. A favourable one, but coincidence. I didnt even want the Ned Ashara thing to be a valid point in my post above, Just a small idea as to what his Southron Ambitions could be, obviously he had them and as Lady Dustin said 'Southron Ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals.' I am more trying to get views on the Rhaegar Lyanna thing. I think she was saying that Rickard had high ambitions for who his children were going to marry, all of them in the South. And it's possible he wanted Rhaegar for Lyanna, I really have no idea who he hoped Ned would marry...ANy other ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 And what if.... Rickard's "Southron Ambitions" were nothing but what lady Dustin tells herself to cope with the idea of Brandon AND Ned rejecting her? Pretty much like Cersei said that Aerys's reason to reject her for Rhaegar was his own madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 And what if.... Rickard's "Southron Ambitions" were nothing but what lady Dustin tells herself to cope with the idea of Brandon AND Ned rejecting her? Pretty much like Cersei said that Aerys's reason to reject her for Rhaegar was his own madness. That's possible, Lady Dustin does say that Brandon flat out told her that though. Rhaegar and Cersei never even had a recorded conversation did they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 That's possible, Lady Dustin does say that Brandon flat out told her that though. Rhaegar and Cersei never even had a recorded conversation did they? Indeed, they didn't. We know Aerys' wanted to marry his son another dragon because it's what we suppose he wanted (prophecy and all that) but I wonder if Rhaegar also had a say on it, like "no, I need to get married with a girl who has the blood of the dragon". And Brandon could have lied. "Yes, you're cute but, you know, my father got ambitions. Sorry". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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