What is your opinion on AFFC and ADWD?

[The Onion Sleight]

AFFC is also my least favourite book, but it wasn't bad, just... different... I loved Cersei's, Jaime's, Asha's and Vic's POVs.

(I've read all books last year, so I had not to wait so many years between Feast and Dance, but if I'd had to, maybe I would dislike Feast much more...)

I absolutely love ADWD! I always thought it's my second favourite book together with ACOK (and ASOS is my most favourite), but the more I re-read Dance the more I think it's actually in the first place with Storm and Imo, it's definitely an mega-awesome book and one of the best!

For me, ADWD had some (not many) of the worst chapters in the series (*cough* Dany *cough*), but at the same time is the majority of my favourite chapters in ADWD, the POV chapters of Davos, Jon, Theon, Asha and Mel's one were some of the best overall, Imo - God, I'm so in love with everything that happens in the North in Dance (and the coming books)!

ADWD had Stannis/Jon, Jon's storyline as new LC (he became one of my favourite charas in Dance), Davos and Manderly (especially Davos III and IV), Stannis' death march with Asha and I think Theon's chapters were the very best! Every Reek chapter, The Turncloak, The Prince of WInterfell and especially A Ghost in Winterfell is incredible, I'm facinated with his storyline (and Roose - my guily pleasure); Theon with the Boltons in Winterfell and at the same time Asha with Stannis&Co. nearby was awesome... So, the long and the short of it:

I found AFFC is okay, but my least favourite.

I found ADWD is one of the bests (mainly because of the Northern storyline; Davos, Theon, Jon, Asha and Mel make it to my fav book with ASOS).

[Lummel]

AFFC is my favourite in the series. ADWD I find the POVs read individually are great, but some how the book doesn't not come together as a whole for me - although some groups of POVs do throw light on each other, eg Jon and Daenerys.

I can't say I'm troubled by the battle at Meereen or the battle between Stannis and Ramsey not being fought on page - does anyone think that the slavers will win or that Stannis' army will be crushed by Ramsey? Neither strikes me as a cliffhanger. It is only a question of how things will work out precisely rather than of what will happen.

There are issues with the spread and scope of the work - but then that is down to GRRM's initial design of the series. Whether it all comes together and works effectively will depend on the final books.

[Holy Sock]

Complete arcs? Theon's arc ended with him fleeing from WF. What has happened to him and Jeyne? Brienne and Jaime are heading for LS, what will happen to them? Cersei had to go through the walk of shame and now awaits her trial by combat. Daenerys met a new Khalasar, how will she handle them?

Can you please elaborate why you think that those arcs did not end with a cliffhanger?

This is part of the problem many readers have with AFFC&ADWD. That plot is the main indicator of book progression and character arcs etc. Plot is great, and a very important part of the story, but it is only one part of GRRM's writing.

I said there are plot cliffhangers but there are complete character arcs. The plot facilitates a character arc rather than dominates it. TO truly measure a character arc you need to take measure of the character at the beginning of their chapters, their journey throughout their chapters, and where they are at the end.

I'll say this before I go into a tiny bit of detail - this does not mean you have to like it. You can recognise the purpose of storylines and character arcs and still dislike the books.

I'm sure there are people here that can come up with a much better analysis of each arc but here's a brief idea from what I recall:

• Theon begins his arc as Reek. Throughout his story he pretends to be Theon and, slowly but surely, becomes himself again piece by piece. He starts his arc saying "Reek. My name is Reek, it rhymes with bleak." and ends it saying “Theon,” he repeated. “My name is Theon. You have to know your name.”

• Brienne begins her arc as the true chivalrous knight of the Seven Kingdoms. She's never killed before. She's on a quest to save a young maiden. Her sword is called "Oathkeeper". Throughout her arc she seems to be face to the harsh realities of the world, both in regards to her good intentions and gender roles, and comprimises herself a bit piece by piece. She is even forced to violently kill some nasty folk. She's also keeping her Oath for Jaime's sake and, throughout the story, she slowly feels a much greater deal of affection for him. By the end of the story she has failed to find Sansa, she has been defeated in combat by Biter, and captured by the BWB.

  She begins here journey saying “I will find the girl and keep her safe,” Brienne had promised Ser Jaime, back at King’s Landing. “For her lady mother’s sake. And for yours.” - at the end of her arc she's forced by the hate-filled resurrected lady mother to betray the man who sent her on her quest. She tries to refuse but, after seeing her friends hang, she gives in and goes to betray Jaime for their sakes.

• Jaime begins his arc with his sister, still after her love. His arc he becomes a lot less like the man he was and a lot more like the man he wants to be. Instead of bringing about peace in the Riverlands through battle he does it through diplomacy. He even develops a fatherly affection for both Tommen and Myrcella. His arc ends when his sister , the only person in the world he had ever loved, sending him a letter pleading to him to return to King's Landing and save her. And he replies “Put this in the fire.”

  THEN, on top of that, he immediately goes off to help Brienne "save Sansa from the Hound".

• Daenerys' whole arc is essentailly the conflict within herself between her motherly want for peace and her aggressive Fire and Blood side. Her whole struggle with making peace with the Yunkai represents this. And Hizdahr and Daario represent the two sides of herself. Her arc involves her compromising herself to secure peace. So the dragons are chained, she marries Hizdahr and makes peace with Yunkai.

  But, deep down, she urges to defeat her enemies in fire and blood. It's why she feel so defeated when she makes peace with the Slavers. It's why she sleeps with Daario. Then, i the pit, it culminates with her taming Drogon and flying away from the city. Then, in the Dothraki Sea, she convinces herself that Meereen is not her city and that Westeros is her destination. She's forgotten what she truly is - a Targaryan.

  This is her most important exchange when talking to herself - in the form of Jorah:

  You took Meereen, he told her, yet still you lingered.

  “To be a queen.”

  You are a queen, her bear said. In Westeros.

  “It is such a long way,” she complained. “I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl.”

  No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

  “Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass.

  She starts the story amongst the nobility, in silk, and queen of a city wishing to keep the peace. She ends it in the wilderness, with her dragon by her side, surrounded by the Dothraki.

• Cersei's arc is a bit similar. She starts off with all the power of the Sven Kingdoms and, through her own fault, is imprisoned, shaved and forced to walk bare in front of King's Landing. I can't really go into depth with Cersei but the most interesting thing about Cersei's arc is that she learns nothing.

  She may be a bit more savvy but she doesn't become a more enlightened person. Even after all she goes through when she's carried away in Robert Strong's arms all she can think is "Oh, yes."

• Jon's arc seems to be mainly about Oaths versus what's right. He's constantly at battle with the strict oaths of the Night's Watch and what's actually best for everyone in their battle against the Others. Bowen Marsh et al represent the former - but he fails to listen to them time an time again. He helps Stannis, lets the wildlings in, sends Mance to resuce Arya, marries Alys Karstark to Sigorn.

  Essentially his arc culminates with the Pink Letter. He chooses what's right - his family, specifically Arya - against the strict rules of the Night's Watch. And argument can be made that Ramsay poses a threat to the Watch but all Jon would have to do is give into his demands. Which is unacceptable.

  "I won’t say you’re wrong. What do you mean to do, crow?”

  Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

  “I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.

  Jon decides to save his sister regardless of the consequences. He'd already sent Mance after her - and he's most likely failed. It's why he asks no other Night's Watch man to join him.

  But it's the straw that breaks the camels back. He ignored and spurned those who strictly adhere to the rules - who dislike Jon's progressive changes - and he gets stabbed to death for it.

I could probably try and write more for other characters but I think that gets my point across. Character and narrative arcs have A LOT more to them than just plot. Plot is important but not the be all and end all of storytelling.

But it still doesn't mean anyone has to like what GRRM wanted to write about

[Mark Antony]

I loved Feast and Dance a lot more doing a combined re-read

[A Man Has Said]

They had positive points, they had negative points. Unlike the majority here I liked AFfC Far better than ADwD.

Both were pleasant to read so far as descriptive literature. The one thing that made them more tolerable was that for a change no favourite characters were killed by GRRM's now familiar diabolis ex machina methods.

I liked "Feast" because it was chock full of character development; Cersei, Arya, Jaime, Sansa, and to a lesser extent Sam and Brienne all had good plot arcs in the book.

I didn't like the Ironborn and Dornish POVs. If he has any hope of finishing the series in seven books, GRRM has got to stop himself from throwing further complications into things.

"Dance" was in many respects my least favourite book of the series. I kept getting confused by Tyrion's endless travelogue down the Royne being paralleled by Quentyn's quest - both had similar parties, and the same objective of reaching Dany, who was the plot magnet in Essos. If I had been the editor I would have insisted on eliminating Quentin altogether. Overall the whole book felt like a pause in the action, and barely pushed the plot forward an inch. I felt frustrated by the lack of anything significant happening, which was reflected in the POV characters, many of whom were also set in frustrating situations.

The worst flaw of the two books taken as a whole was that they did nothing to address the Five-Year Gap Problem. I'm sure eliminating the gap was the right thing to do, but by the end of 2,000 subsequent pages at least 4 of those years should have passed, not 8 months. How the fuck are Arya, Bran, Sansa and Rickon expected to grow up? Instead of plot development we got elaborate descriptions of Tyrion pissing off the side of a boat which I for one could have done without.

[Queen of Whores]

I personally feel that A Feast for Crows is the best written and most complex book of the series. It's very character-driven and introspective, which I love. It has an amazing sense of atmosphere and mood (see Brienne's trip to the Whispers and Aeron's drowning ceremony). Cersei's (very rapid) descent into paranoia and stupidity is both glorious and frustrating to witness, and she is written with fascinating evil-ness by Martin, an unusual departure from the usual complexity he writes characters in. Some parts of the book I found to be quite dull and boring (Brienne's first few chapters, as well as Arya's chapters and Sam's), but other characters storylines were handled fantastically, such as Jaime's (my favourite of the book) and the new storylines (Dorne and the Iron Islands, which I personally found to be excellent and very entertaining). Overall I'd say Feast is my second favourite novel of the series, under Game.

A Dance with Dragons, however, is much more of a mixed-bag for me. Some parts were absolutely amazing (Theon, Davos) and others were just plain bad (Tyrion, Daenerys). This book has a lot more filler in it, especially with the horrendously long travelogue of Tyrion, which is in my opinion the single worst storyline of the entire series. It was often poorly written, and further highlighted how uninteresting and terrible Essos is in general compared to Westeros. Daenerys was barely above this in terms of quality. I really enjoyed all the chapters in the North though, especially Theon's, Davos' and Jon's. Asha I'm not too enthusiastic about, but at least we saw more of Stannis through her. Bran I just flat-out do not care about, and I didn't enjoy his chapters at all. The only interesting thing about them was Bloodraven. The complete lack of closure in this book, as well as the random one-off chapters (Jaime, Melisandre) bring my rating of this book down even lower. The book has some amazing highs (Theon's entire storyline) but also the lowest lows of the series as well (Tyrion, Daenerys). While I still liked the book overall, it's definitely my least favourite of the series.

[Holy Sock]

The worst flaw of the two books taken as a whole was that they did nothing to address the Five-Year Gap Problem. I'm sure eliminating the gap was the right thing to do, but by the end of 2,000 subsequent pages at least 4 of those years should have passed, not 8 months. How the fuck are Arya, Bran, Sansa and Rickon expected to grow up? Instead of plot development we got elaborate descriptions of Tyrion pissing off the side of a boat which I for one could have done without.

I think you're misunderstanding the five year gap. He scrapped the idea entirely. What we saw in AFFC & ADWD was him bridging the 5 year gap and dipping into a few chapters of the post-five year gap storyline (like Daenerys).

[Mithras]

Feast is a gem. I take the Feast as a barometer. The more a reader appreciates Feast, the more I appreciate him/her.

Dismissing the 5 year gap is not a mistake. It was a necessity. The mistake was to start with too young characters in the first place. GRRM admits that much. Time cannot flow as fast as he planned. If he had another chance, he would start with older characters like the show.

[A Man Has Said]

I think you're misunderstanding the five year gap. He scrapped the idea entirely. What we saw in AFFC & ADWD was him bridging the 5 year gap and dipping into a few chapters of the post-five year gap storyline (like Daenerys).

No. I'm not misunderstanding anything.

The five-year gap has a purpose in GRRM's overall (original) plan, which was to age up the younger characters. He wanted to show Sansa in her early twenties and Arya as a flowered maiden. They're still children*, and that limits the range of situations that he can realistically depict them in.

* - (Arya is still 11 at the end of ADwD, or possibly 12. She doesn't know exactly because the Braavosi and Westerosi calendars are so different.)

The thing is, it wouldn't have been much of a challenge to have stretched the time that Feast and Dance encompass from 8 or 9 months to at least a couple of years. All the same events could have taken place, but in a longer time frame.

[Holy Sock]

No. I'm not misunderstanding anything.

The five-year gap has a purpose in GRRM's overall (original) plan, which was to age up the younger characters. He wanted to show Sansa in her early twenties and Arya as a flowered maiden. They're still children*, and that limits the range of situations that he can realistically depict them in.

* - (Arya is still 11 at the end of ADwD, or possibly 12. She doesn't know exactly because the Braavosi and Westerosi calendars are so different.)

The thing is, it wouldn't have been much of a challenge to have stretched the time that Feast and Dance encompass from 8 or 9 months to at least a couple of years. All the same events could have taken place, but in a longer time frame.

Yes, but he scrapped that idea once he figured the five year gap wasn't working for him and that he couldn't really leave months and months between different chapters.

It might have been the original intent and he might have tried to create longer gaps between chapters when he first started writing FEAST but, now, the idea of aging up the characters rapidly is gone.

[A Man Has Said]

Feast is a gem. I take the Feast as a barometer. The more a reader appreciates Feast, the more I appreciate him/her.

Dismissing the 5 year gap is not a mistake. It was a necessity. The mistake was to start with too young characters in the first place. GRRM admits that much. Time cannot flow as fast as he planned. If he had another chance, he would start with older characters like the show.

THIS^^ Exactly THIS^^ :agree:

Ironically, GRRM warned the showrunners early on about the 'butterfly effect' that would creep up on them if they changed plot lines significantly - later parts of the narrative wouldn't make sense anymore. The age of the Stark children is an early decision that has caused a lot of significant problems for Martin in subsequent novels.

The biggest problem that he has had IMO is that in the beginning he wanted to create a 'timeless' universe. He totally crapped on the idea of years and seasons being dependent on each other. He hoped that if he put different POVs far enough away from each other geographically the reader wouldn't be able to 'sync up' events on different threads. Then he crapped on that too, with the comet in "Clash." Fans have tried to put together timelines and calendars, and have been frustrated by the effort. I think of it as sheer laziness on the author's part. It was a part of the writing process he didn't like, and he tried to avoid it. It bit him in the ass.

[Fat Mac]

I think feast is my favorite to reread. I like Cersei, Jaime, dorne and the ironborn so it was never that bad for me to begin with. And of course sansas chapters were great. Dance was good too, but I think George could have cut the essos stuff at least by half. Overall I view them as transition novels, taking us from the first part of the series to the last.

[sifth]

I find my self agreeing with those who felt Tyrion's arc in A Dance with Dragons was horrible. To this date those chapters are easily the worst ones I've read from the series. They were alright up until Jorah picks him up, but from that point on word nothing happens.

[Dornish Vinegar]

Feast is my favorite, easily. Dance is no better or worse than the first three books, imo.

[Roxy Carmichael]

With some halfway decent editing they could have been combined into a single book. That book would have been great and strikingly gothic in tone. As they stand, we have two books which, combined, have as many pages and Lord of the Rings and War and Peace together. Consider how much happens in those two books (or four books, depending on how you look at it) compared to how much happens in AFFC and ADWD.

Don't get me wrong, AFFC and ADWD have some lovely passages (Theon's were absolutely haunting, and Barristan's were meltingly nostalgic,), excellent characters (Jaime! Jaime!), and tense moments (Davos and Manderly, Quentyn and the Tattered Prince), but there is a lot of filler mixed in there too. How many times do various catch phrases have to be repeated? Do we really need the pages of descriptions of food or Harry the Heir's lineage? At this point, the author has used so many cliffhangers for various characters that they fail to build any suspense. Aegon felt like a shoehorned after-thought instead of an "Oh wow!" reveal.

I guess I could be generous and say that GRRM was world building and developing characters - and there is some of that - but really I just felt like he was delaying and trying to fill pages. There are some definite pacing issues.

[BastardlyRock]

Being a firm believer of "it's not the destination, it's the journey," I tend to find all of this "filler" and travelogue not only pertinent, but extremely satisfying. What's everyone in such a rush for? Just to find out how it ends faster? No thank you. You may have guessed it, but yes, aFFC is my favorite in the series, and in saying so I'm not detracting one bit from the greatness of the others... to include Tyrion's aDwD travelogue ;)

[Ser Jake]

AFFC was my least favourite ADWD is my second favourite behind Storm of Swords.

I pretty much agree with this. I admit I was kinda let down when I first read AFfC but I've read it 2 more times since then and it gets better and better. I very much enjoy it, but I still think it's my least favorite.

As for ADwD, I pretty much loved it right from the start. ASoS is definitely number 1, and I'd say AGoT and ADwD are tied for number 2.

[Holy Sock]

With some halfway decent editing they could have been combined into a single book. That book would have been great and strikingly gothic in tone. As they stand, we have two books which, combined, have as many pages and Lord of the Rings and War and Peace together. Consider how much happens in those two books (or four books, depending on how you look at it) compared to how much happens in AFFC and ADWD.

Don't get me wrong, AFFC and ADWD have some lovely passages (Theon's were absolutely haunting, and Barristan's were meltingly nostalgic,), excellent characters (Jaime! Jaime!), and tense moments (Davos and Manderly, Quentyn and the Tattered Prince), but there is a lot of filler mixed in there too. How many times do various catch phrases have to be repeated? Do we really need the pages of descriptions of food or Harry the Heir's lineage? At this point, the author has used so many cliffhangers for various characters that they fail to build any suspense. Aegon felt like a shoehorned after-thought instead of an "Oh wow!" reveal.

I guess I could be generous and say that GRRM was world building and developing characters - and there is some of that - but really I just felt like he was delaying and trying to fill pages. There are some definite pacing issues.

They could have been yes. It's a big reason why we have extra chapters in AFFC & ADWD for some characters - because the separate volumes allowed it.

But the point is, if they had waited to combine both books, there would have been 10+ years between the publishing of ASOS and AFFC/ADWD. And I believe GRRM said that would have been "too long".

I think people don't really get that the purpose of GRRM writing isn't just to tell an exciting story or plot. There's a myriad of other reasons why he writes what he writes and it seems a little shortsighted to think that it's just "filler" or "marking time" or such.

No one has to like what GRRM wants to write about - but there are reasons beyond plot development.

[Starks Bane]

I'm currently rereading/listening to AFfC, and the only thing I really like about it is the septon in Brienne's POV. The Martin Luther-esque traveling Sparrows and further descriptions of the smallfolk were pretty cool. Sort of what GRRM did with Arya chapters in vol. 2.

But the fact that there was such a large gap of time between publishing AFfC and ADwD, and that so little "happens" in Feast... I can see how that was very frustrating for devoted fans. And personally, I think the slow writing pace shows that despite what he claims, GRRM likely doesn't know how to end this saga. I don't think he knows the answers to the questions he's posed, I think he made everything so deliberately vague to have prophecies apply to major characters equally to give himself an out.

[Mark Antony]

I find my self agreeing with those who felt Tyrion's arc in A Dance with Dragons was horrible. To this date those chapters are easily the worst ones I've read from the series. They were alright up until Jorah picks him up, but from that point on word nothing happens.

Yea I actually find myself liking Daenerys dance chapters more and more. Not the case with the imp. Definitely my least favorite pov of the book