US Politics: we are all liberals, we are all conservatives

[Suttree]

Wipe the stars from your eyes and try to look at this situation without the political chips on your shoulders.

That's pretty hilarious given your false "zomg we've negotiated with terrorists for the first time!!!" hysterics.

-- but maybe the preceding six years of "Obama is the worst thing ever and this thing he just did is the worst, most MuslimSocialistTerroristy thing ever" have done the right wing a disservice, eh? The unreasoned, knee-jerk bleating has been so deafening and so consistent for so long, hard to pick out when we should start paying attention to the GOP's fainting chorus.

Indeed. Funny thing is we have posts like the below in this very thread and yet people are still trying to say people making this about Obama is "ludicrous".

In summary, days after the VA scandal comes to a head, we coincidentally release five Taliban commanders (without consulting congress) in exchange for a shitbird that deserted his post and got his fellow soldiers killed.

[Frog Eater]

The news that Bergdahl is a traitor is not new.

I am a member of the American Legion and they wanted to do a "Bring Bowe Home" fundraiser and I stood up and said why I didn't support such a fundraiser, that he willingly walked off his post, that he asked children in the next village over where the Taliban were, that six soldiers were killed looking for him, that attacks increased after his defection to the Taliban, and that the Taliban were using him for propaganda purposes.

I think Bowe should be tried for treason and I think he should be executed for it.

The accounts of his fellow soldiers are the best accounts available, and they are all against him.

Trying to align the fact that Bergdahl is a traitor to a Republican smear campaign is disingenuous. I have been saying it for years.

[Altherion]

The article is from 2012, is about events from 2010 and is only 530 words, not that tough of a read. I'll quote it, again:

The process, launched with Obama administration support in Qatar in 2010 under German mediation, was to begin with a prisoner exchange as a trial test for further talks. The American soldier, Sgt. Bowe Bigdahl, who was captured on June 30, 2009, was to be released in a swap for five Taliban detainees held in Guantanamo. The Taliban believed the exchange had US approval. But US Republican opposition made Congressional approval impossible, and the talks have floundered ever since.

So yeah, four years of advanced notice that the administration wanted to do this.

My point was that having considered something years ago (granted, four years rather than two) and abandoned it then does not constitute advance notice for doing it now. In fact, the Obama administration admits that no notice was given:

White House National Security Adviser Susan Rice said the U.S. didn’t inform Congress in advance so as not to jeopardize the chance of freeing Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, who had been held captive for five years. Ms. Rice, speaking on CNN’s “State of the Union,” acknowledged that the Obama administration began notifying members of Congress after “the deal was done” and Sgt. Bergdahl was back in U.S. hands.

Their argument is not that notice was given, but that this secrecy was necessary:

“What we put the highest premium on was the safety of Sgt. Bergdahl,” she said. “This was very held closely within the administration. We could not take any risks with losing the opportunity to bring him back safely.”

[The onion wight]

My point was that having considered something years ago (granted, four years rather than two) and abandoned it then does not constitute advance notice for doing it now. In fact, the Obama administration admits that no notice was given:

Their argument is not that notice was given, but that this secrecy was necessary:

So what's the deal here? Is Bergdahl going to be given a heroes welcome with the President pinning a medal on his chest? If that's how they play it they'll be making a massive mistake IMO.

[DanteGabriel]

Ignoring the guilt or innocence of the soldier himself, here is a reasonable theory about what this move means:

Is the administration simply unconcerned about these five rejoining the fight? More likely the deal is part of a larger push, also on display in last week’s troop withdrawal announcement, to disengage the U.S. from the war against the Taliban.

...

A 2011 report by the Kandahar-based researchers Alex Strick van Linschoten and Felix Kuehn, who are about as plugged-in to Taliban sources as any western researchers could ever possibly be, suggested that opportunities were ripe for a break between the Taliban and al-Qaida, but that continued U.S. military activities in Afghanistan were making such a break less likely. The two groups, whose relationship was always a bit fraught, may have drifted even further apart in the wake of Osama bin Laden’s death.

It’s not entirely clear what U.S. counterterrorism policy is going to look like going forward – and as the recent debate over repeal of the 9/11-era Authorization for the Use of Military Force showed, the administration isn’t all that eager to clarify it just yet – but it’s fairly safe to assume that thanks to drones and special forces raids, it will involve a lot fewer U.S. troops being left in countries where they are targets for years on end.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/06/02/bowe_bergdahl_prisoner_swap_the_u_s_wants_to_get_out_of_the_taliban_fighting.html

[Maltaran]

What no-one seems to have mentioned is that the 5 released Taliban people aren't going back to Afghanistan - they're being sent to Qatar and they have to stay there for at least a year.

[TrackerNeil]

Ignoring the guilt or innocence of the soldier himself, here is a reasonable theory about what this move means:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/06/02/bowe_bergdahl_prisoner_swap_the_u_s_wants_to_get_out_of_the_taliban_fighting.html

I think this whole kerfuffle reveals the conservative desire for endless war. That sounds hyperbolic, but I think that if we stayed in Afghanistan for another century and left in 2114, a cryogenically preserved Bill Kristol would complain that if we but stayed the course for another two years we'd have everything sorted out. These people never get enough of fighting, they really don't.

[awesome possum]

My point was that having considered something years ago (granted, four years rather than two) and abandoned it then does not constitute advance notice for doing it now. In fact, the Obama administration admits that no notice was given:

Their argument is not that notice was given, but that this secrecy was necessary:

I both agree and disagree. Congress was served advanced notice and like so many things these last several years, Congress purposely screwed it up. And secrecy was necessary because without secrecy Congress would have screwed it up.

Here's a story from a guy who served in the same battalion. I'll quote the most relevant parts:

Bergdahl was not the first American soldier in modern history to walk away blindly. As I write this in Seoul, I'm about 40 miles from where an American sergeant defected to North Korea in 1965. Charles Robert Jenkins later admitted that he was terrified of being sent to Vietnam, so he got drunk and wandered off on a patrol. He was finally released in 2004, after almost 40 hellish years of brutal internment. The Army court-martialed him, sentencing him to 30 days' confinement and a dishonorable discharge. He now lives peacefully with his wife in Japan—they met in captivity in North Korea, where they were both forced to teach foreign languages to DPRK agents. His desertion barely warranted a comment, but he was not hailed as a hero. He was met with sympathy and humanity, and he was allowed to live his life, but he had to answer for what he did.

I believe that Bergdahl also deserves sympathy, but he has much to answer for, some of which is far more damning than simply having walked off. Many have suffered because of his actions: his fellow soldiers, their families, his family, the Afghan military, the unaffiliated Afghan civilians in Paktika, and none of this suffering was inevitable. None of it had to happen. Therefore, while I’m pleased that he’s safe, I believe there is an explanation due. Reprimanding him might yield horrible press for the Army, making our longest war even less popular than it is today. Retrieving him at least reminds soldiers that we will never abandon them to their fates, right or wrong. In light of the propaganda value, I do not expect the Department of Defense to punish Bergdahl.

He deserves to come home and he deserves to face the consequences of his actions. Consequences should not include remaining a Prisoner of War and if people who think that aren't just carrying that Obama-flavored haterade, then they're simply horrible, pathetic human beings in my opinion.

[Wise Fool]

Um, no. I did not say Obama released them BECAUSE they would go kill more Americans or because he was evil and stupid. I didn't bring up Obama at all.

What I did say is they are releasing 5 very bad guys who are likely to go right back to killing Americans, because they were in Gitmo for being involved in plots to do just that. So those guys are released to obtain a a low level PFC (at time of capture) who voluntarily left his FOB to join them, go on a fucking nature walk, whatever, and as a consequence a lot of guys get killed or injured and a lot of resources get deployed to try and get this guy who is exactly where he wants to be. So it seems to be a highly imbalanced trade. It's like saying I'll give you 5 million crisp dollars for your one dirty ripped one.

And I was asking you, that if you think this is such a terrible deal, then why do you think it's being made. Seems like the only conclusion one can draw from your premises is the existence of evil or stupidity and likely both, is that not so?

[NoneofYourBiz]

@Wise Fool (quote function not working for me)

I can't begin to understand why such a deal would be made, but I eagerly await our government's explanation. The conclusion you can draw from my posts is that I think the deal is wrong and I have already explained why I think it is so several times over.

[1918me]

I both agree and disagree. Congress was served advanced notice and like so many things these last several years, Congress purposely screwed it up. And secrecy was necessary because without secrecy Congress would have screwed it up.

Here's a story from a guy who served in the same battalion. I'll quote the most relevant parts:

He deserves to come home and he deserves to face the consequences of his actions. Consequences should not include remaining a Prisoner of War and if people who think that aren't just carrying that Obama-flavored haterade, then they're simply horrible, pathetic human beings in my opinion.

This is pretty in-line with what I was saying about a similar topic the other day; I think every effort should be made to spare (potentially) innocent lives, until an actual trial can be held.

Also, I can certainly see the potential downsides of this deal, and don't mean to write off arguments from the other side of the aisle with throwaway "cuz Obama" posts. However, I genuinely do think that, until any actual wrongdoing on the part of the soldier can be proven, he should be afforded every right that we would give to any other POW.

[Seli]

Wow! So there's some hidden agenda whereby active military personnel for some reason decide to defame a perfectly innocent POW. Maybe they're psychic and figured that Obama would at some point look for some good PR from his release?

No. But I find it reasonable to expect that groups of people who are responsible for each other('s wellbeing and safety) develop mechanisms to explain away failures. So someone who had a break-down and went awol and ought to have been noticed and stopped long before can easily become a deserter in the story the people left behind tell themselves. Not saying that is what happened, but something to keep in mind.

[NoneofYourBiz]

Pentagon concluded Bergdahl left his unit.

Excerpts:

WASHINGTON (AP) — A Pentagon investigation concluded in 2010 that Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl walked away from his unit, and after an initial flurry of searching the military decided not to exert extraordinary efforts to rescue him, according to a former senior defense official who was involved in the matter.

The military investigation was broader than a criminal inquiry, this official said, and it didn't formally accuse Bergdahl of desertion. In interviews, members of his unit portrayed him as a naive, "delusional" person who thought he could help the Afghan people by leaving his army post, the official said. U.S. military and intelligence agencies had made every effort to monitor Bergdahl's location and his health, the official said, through both signals intelligence and a network of spies.

Nathan Bradley Bethea, who served as an officer in Bergdahl's unit, said in an article Monday on the Daily Beast website that Bergdahl was not on patrol, as some reports have suggested.

"There was no patrol that night," he wrote. "Bergdahl was relieved from guard duty, and instead of going to sleep, he fled the outpost on foot. He deserted. I've talked to members of Bergdahl's platoon_including the last Americans to see him before his capture. I've reviewed the relevant documents. That's what happened."

Hagel, visiting troops in Afghanistan, was met with silence when he told a group of them in a Bagram Air Field hangar: "This is a happy day. We got one of our own back."

There is a coordinated effort going on right now by soldiers who served with him to get their stories out to the media so you can expect more stories from his peers over the next few days.

[MerenthaClone]

Pentagon concluded Bergdahl left his unit.

Nathan Bradley Bethea, who served as an officer in Bergdahl's unit, said in an article Monday on the Daily Beast website that Bergdahl was not on patrol, as some reports have suggested.

"There was no patrol that night," he wrote. "Bergdahl was relieved from guard duty, and instead of going to sleep, he fled the outpost on foot. He deserted. I've talked to members of Bergdahl's platoon_including the last Americans to see him before his capture. I've reviewed the relevant documents. That's what happened."

A) a battalion is at least 500 men, and Bethea makes zero claim that he actually knew the man

B) Bethea was not even in the base when Berdahl was captured. He was instead in the provincial capitol, by his own admission in the article.

c) The author admits as much: he says he talked to members of Bergdahl's platoon. He makes zero claim to having been there or having any idea beyond "I talked to these guys"

d) many of the deaths he blames on Bergdahl are because some drones and intelligence assets were devoted to finding Bergdahl and this is only information he gained, second-hand, from a friend of his.

This entire article is "I served in the same unit as this guy once and my friends say _____". At no point does Bethea make any claim to have any more knowledge than this, but that doesn't stop misleading headlines or people from commenting before they read the article.

edit: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/02/we-lost-soldiers-in-the-hunt-for-bergdahl-a-guy-who-walked-off-in-the-dead-of-night.html Here is the Daily Beast article the other media are quoting re: Bethea.

[The onion wight]

A) a battalion is at least 500 men, and Bethea makes zero claim that he actually knew the man

B) Bethea was not even in the base when Berdahl was captured. He was instead in the provincial capitol, by his own admission in the article.

c) The author admits as much: he says he talked to members of Bergdahl's platoon. He makes zero claim to having been there or having any idea beyond "I talked to these guys"

d) many of the deaths he blames on Bergdahl are because some drones and intelligence assets were devoted to finding Bergdahl and this is only information he gained, second-hand, from a friend of his.

This entire article is "I served in the same unit as this guy once and my friends say _____". At no point does Bethea make any claim to have any more knowledge than this, but that doesn't stop misleading headlines or people from commenting before they read the article.

edit: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/02/we-lost-soldiers-in-the-hunt-for-bergdahl-a-guy-who-walked-off-in-the-dead-of-night.html Here is the Daily Beast article the other media are quoting re: Bethea.

I notice you ignore the first part of the post that cites a Pentagon investigation. I've read multiple sources that says he walked out of his unit, including the otherwise very supportive Rolling Stone article above. It seems pretty established to me. The controversial part is whether or not he, if even for a short while, actively cooperated with and aided the enemy.

[Jaxom 1974]

Query: If you take the fact that he is a soldier out of the equation and look at it as an American being held by forces hostile to Americans and their interests, does it make a difference?

Maybe he did go willingly. Guess they're was always a done strike as an option.

[BloodRider]

3. And it was pretty shitty deal anyway. 5 high ranking members of Taliban for one soldier? Plus there are rumors he could be considered deserter, not POW, that makes this deal even worse.

Here it comes. The poor fuck is gonna get Breitbarted by the wingnuts.

[1918me]

In other news, it looks like Seattle finally passed that new minimum wage.

The Seattle City Council unanimously passed an ordinance Monday that gradually increases the minimum wage in the city to $15, which would make it the highest in the nation.

The issue has dominated politics in the liberal municipality for months, and a boisterous crowd of mostly labor activists packed the Council chambers for the vote. Mayor Ed Murray, who was elected last year, had promised in his campaign to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. A newly-elected socialist City Council member had pushed the idea as well.

"We did it. Workers did this," said Kshama Sawant, the socialist City Councilmember "We need to continue to build an even more powerful movement."

Councilmember Tom Rasmussen said "Seattle wants to stop the race to the bottom in wages" and address the "widening gap between the rich and the poor."

The measure, which would take effect on April 1, 2015, includes a phase-in of the wage increase over several years, with a slower process for small businesses. The plan gives businesses with more than 500 employees nationally at least three years to phase in the increase. Those providing health insurance will have four years to complete the move. Smaller organizations will be given seven years.

Some may feel this is a bit high, but this is absolutely a step in the right direction.

[NoneofYourBiz]

A) a battalion is at least 500 men, and Bethea makes zero claim that he actually knew the man

B) Bethea was not even in the base when Berdahl was captured. He was instead in the provincial capitol, by his own admission in the article.

c) The author admits as much: he says he talked to members of Bergdahl's platoon. He makes zero claim to having been there or having any idea beyond "I talked to these guys"

d) many of the deaths he blames on Bergdahl are because some drones and intelligence assets were devoted to finding Bergdahl and this is only information he gained, second-hand, from a friend of his.

This entire article is "I served in the same unit as this guy once and my friends say _____". At no point does Bethea make any claim to have any more knowledge than this, but that doesn't stop misleading headlines or people from commenting before they read the article.

edit: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/02/we-lost-soldiers-in-the-hunt-for-bergdahl-a-guy-who-walked-off-in-the-dead-of-night.html Here is the Daily Beast article the other media are quoting re: Bethea.

Do you know how chain of command works in a battalion? Do you understand why LT Bethea was talking to the guys in Bergdahl's platoon? He wasn't just standing around shooting the shit with these guys. At any rate, the guys from his actual platoon are all over the news right now relaying the same story. And they SOUGHT to tell their story because it is so important to them to get the truth out.

What does the size of the battalion or where Bethea was at the time of the incident have to do with anything? You realize there are internal investigations into these events, right? Investigations that would necessitate talking to the guys who were there? Besides that there were probably 3500 soldiers who were directly told by their commanders what happened and they were also told not to talk about it.

The deaths he blames on Bergdahl are due to the searches these guys had to conduct trying to find this jerk.

Also are you going to completely ignore that the Pentagon determined he deserted back in 2010?

[MerenthaClone]

Also are you going to completely ignore that the Pentagon determined he deserted back in 2010?

No they didn't. Here's the quote.

But the former Pentagon official said it was "incontrovertible" that he walked away from his unit.

The military investigation was broader than a criminal inquiry, this official said, and it didn't formally accuse Bergdahl of desertion.

They determined that he walked away from his unit. These are different things. When or if they charge and convict him of desertion, I will understand if they treat him differently. Until then, he remains (well, remained) a POW captured by hostile forces and deserved to be treated as such.

What does the size of the battalion or where Bethea was at the time of the incident have to do with anything? You realize there are internal investigations into these events, right? Investigations that would necessitate talking to the guys who were there?

Sure, and if Bethea was in charge of, or part of, the investigation into Bergdahl's disappearance, I'm reasonably sure he would have mentioned it. Instead, he says "yeah, I talked to a lot of people including this guy at another base who blames Bergdahl"