US Politics: we are all liberals, we are all conservatives

[sToNED_CAT]

Apparently not. As was pointed out above, breitbart deleted articles from a couple years ago railing against Obama for not bringing this guy home so that they could avoid looking even dumber than usual for now railing against Obama for bringing this guy home.

Seriously, only the Republican party of today could be outraged about the Obama administration for bringing home a prisoner of war. The Obama Derangement Syndrome is off the charts.

You realize, that wanting to "bring the guy home" doesn't mean you must support him being exchanged for 5 high ranking terrorists? The people have no problem with bringing him home, even if he really is a deserter. The problem is setting 5 terrorists free for the guy, that might be charged for desertion now. Is that clear? It was a bad deal, because the price was too high.

[BloodRider]

You realize, that wanting to "bring the guy home" doesn't mean you must support him being exchanged for 5 high ranking terrorists? The people have no problem with bringing him home, even if he really is a deserter. The problem is setting 5 terrorists free for the guy, that might be charged for desertion now. Is that clear? It was a bad deal, because the price was too high.

Then why did you bring it up in the first place?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Terrorists that have neither been designated POWs nor tried as civilians. The US has no business detaining them at all.

[sologdin]

five unindicted & unconvicted persons, rather.

was the alleged 'desertion' based on his obligations under international law? if so, hard to argue against him, considering the general unlawfulness of the entire enterprise.

[NoneofYourBiz]

I look forward to the court martial where we can find out exactly what kind of "POW" Bergdahl was. We all agree he needs his day in court, right? Bring it.

He is a deserter because leaving your post in time of war = AWOL/Desertion under UCMJ. You can be deemed a deserter after 30 days, but the distinction between the two really boils ultimately down to intent. Desertion being that you intended to leave and not come back, which every piece of evidence points to him doing.

No need to quibble over this really, let him have his court martial. However, i fear this is correct:

2) Dubious that he will ever be prosecuted after the administration gave him a hero's welcome.

[Isalie]

For every post about something that actually matters in these threads, there are literally hundreds of posts about which part of the right wing spectra is the meanest.

Apparently the US has set some new CO2 goals, I'm sure that if the topic came up, the thread would look exactly the same, but still, it's interesting to see something happening in regards to the climate.

[NoneofYourBiz]

Where's your proof of this? Because until you can prove this then everything you say is tainted with this abject stupidity.

Because sez you? LOL Whatever.

The testimony of his platoon, you know the guys who were actually there, says this. Is your opinion of a matter you know jack about more relevant than theirs? Because until you can prove it is everything you say is tainted with this abject stupidity.

[Maithanet]

For every post about something that actually matters in these threads, there are literally hundreds of posts about which part of the right wing spectra is the meanest.

Apparently the US has set some new CO2 goals, I'm sure that if the topic came up, the thread would look exactly the same, but still, it's interesting to see something happening in regards to the climate.

Yeah, I was wondering just how long we could go in this thread without bringing this up, considering it will undoubtedly have a larger effect on 99.9% of Americans than this Bergdahl nonsense.

Good to do something I guess, but this is a pretty weak goal. Between the enduring effects of the 2008-09 recession and fuel switching from the natural gas boom, we are approximately halfway towards meeting our goal of a 30% reduction by 2030 already. Great job guys?

But still, something is something, and at least the US can go into climate negotiations and be able to say with a straight face that we are taking some action. I was hoping for more from Obama on climate change, but I didn't really expect it.

[awesome possum]

You realize, that wanting to "bring the guy home" doesn't mean you must support him being exchanged for 5 high ranking terrorists? The people have no problem with bringing him home, even if he really is a deserter. The problem is setting 5 terrorists free for the guy, that might be charged for desertion now. Is that clear? It was a bad deal, because the price was too high.

Unless I'm mistaken, with the drawing down of our war in Afghanistan those guys would have been set free regardless.

Bolton's Leech, sologdin and TGU answered the rest already.

Because sez you? LOL Whatever.

The testimony of his platoon, you know the guys who were actually there, says this. Is your opinion of a matter you know jack about more relevant than theirs? Because until you can prove it is everything you say is tainted with this abject stupidity.

The testimony of his platoon says he joined the taliban? Because that's why you're arguing. The only way he could not be considered a POW is if he defected. The testimony of his platoon, according to Bethea in the article you were touting as gospel, says that he repeatedly stated his desire to walk from Afghanistan to India.

So it seems like you, per usual, are passing along the smoke that has been gently blown up your nethers.

[sToNED_CAT]

Then why did you bring it up in the first place?

Because him being deserter should influence the price paid for his release. But even if he was fucking Medal of Honor recipient, the price paid was too high. For possible deserter it's outrageous.

five unindicted & unconvicted persons, rather.

was the alleged 'desertion' based on his obligations under international law? if so, hard to argue against him, considering the general unlawfulness of the entire enterprise.

What was generally unlawful about "entire Afghan enterprise"? You are not talking about war itself, are you?

Terrorists that have neither been designated POWs nor tried as civilians. The US has no business detaining them at all.

Agreed. They should have been all executed long time ago. Should have been given trial in countries, where outcome is guaranteed beforehand like Afghanistan few years ago. Keeping them in GITMO was stupid, precisely because of situations like this one.

Apparently the US has set some new CO2 goals, I'm sure that if the topic came up, the thread would look exactly the same, but still, it's interesting to see something happening in regards to the climate.

1. It's executive overreach. Even if it's found legal it is pretty scary EPA can wipe out whole industry without Congress approval.

2. The problem is how do you replace all that coal? Obama administration doesn't support nuclear power, wind and solar power are a joke and there are no more hydropower locations. So all that remains is natural gas, without coal it will be in short supply and it needs to be fracked. So Obama's administration defacto supports fracking, go figure. But even with increased natural gas production the energy prices will go up significantly. That's not only the issue for households, but also for industry. Low energy prices are one of the few advantages US has over the rest of the world and now that's likely to be over.

On the other side, at least it will help Republicans politically, and because it's just regulation not a law it can be easily overturned by next administration, so it's not that bad actually.

[The onion wight]

For every post about something that actually matters in these threads, there are literally hundreds of posts about which part of the right wing spectra is the meanest.

Apparently the US has set some new CO2 goals, I'm sure that if the topic came up, the thread would look exactly the same, but still, it's interesting to see something happening in regards to the climate.

It's not so much the US setting goals more Obama issuing a royal decree. Apparently the stuff we breath out as part of metabolic respiration and without which all life on earth would die is in fact 'pollution'. The kind of perversion of language that decrees white people complaining about other white people moving into their country are racists and shit.

[MerenthaClone]

Agreed. They should have been all executed long time ago. Should have been given trial in countries, where outcome is guaranteed beforehand like Afghanistan few years ago. Keeping them in GITMO was stupid, precisely because of situations like this one.

Weeeeell, I think I'm done reading things you write. Fuck rules, fuck laws, just kill people who I feel like! America, motherfuckers! We're the leader of the free world, and we will kill you without trial. Because we're the leader of the free world, see? What're you gonna do about it, punk?

[The onion wight]

I live in the UK. Yes, the British consider the different natives of Europe white. They don't consider them the same race though.But they're different races. Saxons, Normans and other tribes made up the original peoples of Europe.You realise how American it is to refer to groups within Europe as "Caucasian"? Do you consider everyone in Asia, whether the middle east, subcontinent, Siberia or east Asia all as the same race because they're all part of Asia???Do you think the Africans all consider themselves one race? Even within say sub-Saharan Africa?

Wtf? Normans? Is this 12th century England?

[awesome possum]

Because him being deserter should influence the price paid for his release. But even if he was fucking Medal of Honor recipient, the price paid was too high. For possible deserter it's outrageous.

So you're okay with American soldiers being held prisoner indefinitely? What a brave patriot you are.

On the other side, at least it will help Republicans politically, and because it's just regulation not a law it can be easily overturned by next administration, so it's not that bad actually.

And yet, what the Obama administration has proposed is less ambitious than what the GOP was proposing just 6 years ago. But I'm sure the outrage is completely merit-based and has nothing to do with BECAUSE OBAMA.

In May 2008, Sen. John McCain traveled to Portland, Oregon, and delivered a speech that no Republican presidential candidate would consider giving today.

It doesn't matter "whether we call it 'climate change' or 'global warming,'" McCain warned. "Among environmental dangers it is surely the most serious of all." McCain went on to propose a cap-and-trade plan far more aggressive than the power-plant rules the Obama administration is announcing today.

...

The power plant regulations the Obama administration will announce today are far less ambitious than the proposal McCain offered in Oregon in 2008. They're less ambitious than the proposals Newt Gingrich championed through the Aughts. They're far less than what's required to keep the rise in temperatures to two degrees Celsius.

[MerenthaClone]

It's not so much the US setting goals more Obama issuing a royal decree. Apparently the stuff we breath out as part of metabolic respiration and without which all life on earth would die is in fact 'pollution'. The kind of perversion of language that decrees white people complaining about other white people moving into their country are racists and shit.

I love that you still don't get that "race" means different things in different countries/cultures, despite a good chunk of actual people from that actual culture telling you that while other Europeans might be "white" that doesn't mean they're the same "race."

And, uh, yeah. I don't know if you're aware, but anything is toxic in sufficient quantities. If we, for some magical reason, suddenly started pumping out a shitton of oxygen I'd be worried too. Since I like not spontaneously exploding and all. And I'd call it pollution.

Wtf? Normans? Is this 12th century England?

Brittany currently has a robust nationalist movement moving to separate itself from France purely because it is a predominately Breton place, as opposed to the rest of France. Like I said, "race" can mean many different things. People care about that shit, for some reason.

[sToNED_CAT]

Weeeeell, I think I'm done reading things you write. Fuck rules, fuck laws, just kill people who I feel like! America, motherfuckers! We're the leader of the free world, and we will kill you without trial. Because we're the leader of the free world, see? What're you gonna do about it, punk?

Well the Nazis said the same, when they are executed for things that were perfectly legal back in 30ties and 40ties. No one now gives shit about it.

And besides, I was advocating a trial. Just in Afghanistan, not America. Something like Saddam got in Iraq.

[Suttree]

Apparently the stuff we breath out as part of metabolic respiration and without which all life on earth would die is in fact 'pollution'.

Larry Bell, is that you?

“The notion of carbon dioxide being a pollutant is silly because carbon dioxide is what makes plants grow; it’s what whales breathe,” Bell said.

But even with increased natural gas production the energy prices will go up significantly. That's not only the issue for households, but also for industry. Low energy prices are one of the few advantages US has over the rest of the world and now that's likely to be over.

A quick read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/30/opinion/krugman-cutting-back-on-carbon.html?_r=0

Specifically, the report considers a carbon-reduction program that’s probably considerably more ambitious than we’re actually going to see, and it concludes that between now and 2030 the program would cost $50.2 billion in constant dollars per year. That’s supposed to sound like a big deal. Instead, if you know anything about the U.S. economy, it sounds like Dr. Evil intoning “one million dollars.” These days, it’s just not a lot of money.

Remember, we have a $17 trillion economy right now, and it’s going to grow over time. So what the Chamber of Commerce is actually saying is that we can take dramatic steps on climate — steps that would transform international negotiations, setting the stage for global action — while reducing our incomes by only one-fifth of 1 percent. That’s cheap!

Alternatively, consider the chamber’s estimate of costs per household: $200 per year...and that’s going to rise over time, we’re again looking at costs that amount to no more than a small fraction of 1 percent.

One more useful comparison: The Pentagon has warned that global warming and its consequences pose a significant threat to national security. (Republicans in the House responded with a legislative amendment that would forbid the military from even thinking about the issue.) Currently, we’re spending $600 billion a year on defense. Is it really extravagant to spend another 8 percent of that budget to reduce a serious threat?

And all of this is based on anti-environmentalists’ own numbers. The real costs would almost surely be smaller, for three reasons.

First, the Chamber of Commerce study assumes that economic growth, and the associated growth in emissions, will be at its historic norm of 2.5 percent a year. But we should expect slower growth in the future as baby boomers retire, making emissions targets easier to hit.

Second, in the chamber’s analysis, the bulk of the reduction in emissions comes from replacing coal with natural gas. This neglects the dramatic technological progress taking place in renewables, especially solar power, which should make cutting back on carbon even easier.

Third, the U.S. economy is still depressed — and in a depressed economy many of the supposed costs of compliance with energy regulations aren’t costs at all. In particular, building new, low-emission power plants would employ both workers and capital that would otherwise be sitting idle, and would, if anything, give the U.S. economy a boost.

What could this mean for innovation and investment in new technologies one may ask?

For more than a decade, people working in the twin centers of American economic ingenuity, Wall Street and Silicon Valley, have been agitating to get going on the climate problem. But they have been stymied by lack of a clear national policy about where the country was headed.

Many of the nation’s technological luminaries, including Bill Gates, have urged Congress to double or triple the country’s spending on basic research and development in the energy field. Congress has largely ignored them, and Mr. Obama has no ability on his own to steer that kind of money toward the problem.

But some experts said his new plan may at least send a signal to private capital that now is the time to get involved in trying to solve the energy challenge.

“Once the rules are in place, then the engineers really are unleashed on the question of, oh, what’s the cheapest way to do this?” said Kevin Kennedy, director of the United States Climate Initiative at the World Resources Institute, a think tank. “American engineers are pretty good at this sort of thing.”

It's been painfully clear for quite a while that both adaption and mitigation are key in tackling this issue. The long term economic costs of inaction far outweigh any small hits we may take now working towards a solution.

[NoneofYourBiz]

The testimony of his platoon says he joined the taliban? Because that's why you're arguing. The only way he could not be considered a POW is if he defected. The testimony of his platoon, according to Bethea in the article you were touting as gospel, says that he repeatedly stated his desire to walk from Afghanistan to India.

So it seems like you, per usual, are passing along the smoke that has been gently blown up your nethers.

Where did I ever tout the Bethea article as "gospel" or even my source of information? Are you always prone to such exaggerations? I posted pages back that the information I base my opinion on comes from my real life world. I don't need the Bethea article to tell me what I already know and am basing my opinion on, I only posted it because someone was clamoring for some sort of source. I don't disagree with anything in the Bethea article though.

There is a lot of information that is coming out and will continue to come out about this guy. This is a real hot button issue for his unit.

[sToNED_CAT]

It won't lead to more "innovation jobs", because both political parties do very poor job in protecting of american market. For example the solar panels installed in last years,were overwhelmingly made by Chinese, not in America, but are paid by american taxpayers. That's unlikely to change so all this talk about "new clean innovative economy" is just PR bullshit.

[DanteGabriel]

All the ambivalence and doubts about Bergdahl's status has been known for years. A Rolling Stone article from two years ago:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/americas-last-prisoner-of-war-20120607?print=true

From the article it definitely seems like he was a flaky or at least unusually thoughtful soldier who didn't really fit in, and was in a unit that was suffering from breakdowns.

Interesting note:

The next day, American forces had a chance to free Bowe. The battalion operations officer, call sign GERONIMO 3, met with two tribal elders from the nearby village. The elders had been asked by the Taliban to arrange a trade with U.S. forces. The insurgents wanted 15 of their jailed fighters released, along with an unidentified sum of money, in exchange for Bowe. The officer hedged, unwilling or unable to make such a bargain, and no deal was struck. Instead, the Army ordered all units stationed in the eastern half of Afghanistan – known as RC East, in military jargon – to join the search for Bowe.

"Frankly, we don't give a shit why he left," says one White House official. "He's an American soldier. We want to bring him home."

I can at least support this principle. Good to know, however, that Stoned Cat does not "Support the Troops."