Wenda the White Fawn, Septa Lemore and the Toynes

[Ygrain]

A little addendum from a joint effort with yolkboy and Lady G:

Like everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, she had her secrets. She was welcome to them. I do not want to know her, I only want to fuck her.

This part is often used as a support why Tyrion wouldn't pay close attention to Lemore and thus possibly miss the colour of her eyes. However, later we have a passage indicating that his interest in Lemore's secret did become aroused:

Lemore had changed out of her septa’s robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I’d judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

The "why" question relates to something that Lemore mentions before the fight with the stone men:

“We are sworn to protect you,” Lemore said softly.

Finally, there is this interesting bit about Lemore's need to hide her identity:

"Septa’s robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us.” She turned back to Prince Aegon. “You are not the only one who must needs hide.”

This is an interesting passage because it is unclear whether Lemore means here herself, or the supposedly dead JonCon, or Tyrion (or all of them). However, if she includes herself among those who "must needs hide", it means that she has some Essossi connections who might recognize her, either as an associate of Illyrio's, or a member of the Golden Company.

[LordQorgyle]

The best theory i've seen in this forums about Lemore

[DarkstarViserys]

I don't agree with this theory at all.

First things first- we have exactly zero evidence pointing out towards the possibility that Lemore is Wendy the White Fawn. Your line of thinking:

is, IMO, erroneous in two ways:

1) few references we have about the Toynes among several thousands pages of text are not a awful lot

2) the very idea that someone who is referenced must have a role in the story does not (necessarily) hold water. A character can be referenced e.g. as a means for another's character's development or as part of the worldbuilding. Reynes are referenced a number of times, and yet it's obvious they won't be playing any part of the story; references are there just to show Tywin's character. Arthur Dayne gets a number of mentions, but being dead prevents him from being influential to the present storyline. The reason he is mentioned so much is because his character explores important themes of virtue, knighthood, honour etc. , not because he'll play any part in the story to follow. Ulmer gets his backstory expanded? So did Daemon and Pyp, by the way. Merret talks about his past in his POV? And so do Chett and Varamyr for their backstory widens their character in precious few pages they have as POV before being killed.

Next, I don't think Wendy is important enough to be Lemore. While Lemore is one of the main characters in Aegon subplot, while Wendy gets off-handedly mentioned two or three times in the entire series. I'd guarantee that if you told this theory to 10 casual ASOIAF fans, 8 would reply: Wendy who? We, as readers, know are are invested in Lemore, but are not so in Wendy (because we know next to nothing of her). In a way, Lemore being Wendy would downgrade Lemore's character.

And finally, even if you ignore the above, there are problems of Lemore's characterization and motivation. Wendy spent her youth fighting against the Targ king, so why the hell would she dedicate her life to supporting his heir? Wendy was quite a martial person (she must have been, being an outlaw leader), while Lemore is pious and calm. Wendy was an outlaw most of her life, so how would she learn so much of Faith to teach (and teach well) Aegon of it?

All in all, it's a theory no evidence but many many holes, in my opinion.

This. Not to mention it just simply makes no common sense.

[LordQorgyle]

Do you have any evidence about Ashara or Mellario?No

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is an interesting passage because it is unclear whether Lemore means here herself, or the supposedly dead JonCon, or Tyrion (or all of them). However, if she includes herself among those who "must needs hide", it means that she has some Essossi connections who might recognize her, either as an associate of Illyrio's, or a member of the Golden Company.

I think it's more likely that she needs to be hidden rather than hide herself. She's right: why a Septa would be in the company of a sellsword and his son?

I agree with the other points, although I think Tyrion is dismissing Haldon too soon as well. He does not suspects him a little bit while he's the one who is in charge of Jon's letters, being a Maester. I mean, what do we know about Haldon? He's a half-maester. Why? He have no fucking clue. Yet... in that very same chapter:

Haldon took note of her change of garb as well. "What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa's robes, Lemore."

They sound a lot... familiar to each other. Of course, it could be due to them living together for many years. But... I'm gonna risk myself with a crackpot.

Haldon was expelled from the Citadel because he got a septa pregnant: Wenda. Wenda was the contact with Toyne. By the time they needed a Maester to teach Aegon, he suggested he knew also a "septa".

Or he just got some septa pregnant :dunno:

[DarkstarViserys]

Jesus.

[bent branch]

I don't understand why people think Wenda wasn't executed with the rest of the Kingswood Brotherhood. There is nothing in the story to indicate her fate was any different from the men in the group. Ulmer never indicates that her fate was different.

[DarkstarViserys]

If she wasnt or was either way her character is not important. Let alone being important enough to hide on a boat with Jon Con and Aegon. What is her motive? To avenge her rag tag group of rebels?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't understand why people think Wenda wasn't executed with the rest of the Kingswood Brotherhood. There is nothing in the story to indicate her fate was any different from the men in the group. Ulmer never indicates that her fate was different.

Ulmer being alive means not all of them were killed...

[LordQorgyle]

There is also no reference of her execution,and him not sure but the only confirmed deaths in the Brotherhood were Toyne and the Smilling Knight that were killed in Single Combat

[bent branch]

If she wasnt or was either way her character is not important. Let alone being important enough to hide on a boat with Jon Con and Aegon. What is her motive? To avenge her rag tag group of rebels?

This is basically one of my two objections to Wenda. Why would JonCon accept such a random individual into the inner circle. I have no doubt that once we hear both Lemore and Haldon's back story we will learn that they are Targaryen loyalists of unimpeachable cred. The story of Wenda has given us no reason to believe that she would dedicate her life to returning the Targaryens to the IT.

Ulmer being alive means not all of them were killed...

It is obvious how Ulmer survived. He took the Black. Taking the Black is the one alternative offered to almost any man convicted of a crime. In the case of the Kingswood Brotherhood it is obvious that the alternative offered would be death. As Wenda was a woman and women have no place at the Wall (or didn't until recently), I don't see where there would have been any alternative for her. Maybe she could have been sent to the silent sisters, but who was going to make sure she stayed.

As far as I'm concerned these two questions need to be answered in order for Wenda to be a good candidate for Lemore. Why would JonCon trust her to be part of the group and why wasn't she just executed?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is basically one of my two objections to Wenda. Why would JonCon accept such a random individual into the inner circle. I have no doubt that once we hear both Lemore and Haldon's back story we will learn that they are Targaryen loyalists of unimpeachable cred. The story of Wenda has given us no reason to believe that she would dedicate her life to returning the Targaryens to the IT.

It is obvious how Ulmer survived. He took the Black. Taking the Black is the one alternative offered to almost any man convicted of a crime. In the case of the Kingswood Brotherhood it is obvious that the alternative offered would be death. As Wenda was a woman and women have no place at the Wall (or didn't until recently), I don't see where there would have been any alternative for her. Maybe she could have been sent to the silent sisters, but who was going to make sure she stayed.

As far as I'm concerned these two questions need to be answered in order for Wenda to be a good candidate for Lemore. Why would JonCon trust her to be part of the group and why wasn't she just executed?

Just as Ulmer took the black, she could have been sent away as a Septa. Her, alone, wasn't much of a danger. Or so they thought. There is also the chance she escaped to Essos.

[Frey family reunion]

One theory that I've never heard discussed is the possibility that Lemore is the unnamed Whent girl at the Harrenhall tourney. Lady Cat is fairly strong in the faith, so I assume she was brought up in the faith by her mom, Minisa Whent. GRRM confirmed that Lady Shella Whent was the mother to the Whent girl present at the tourney. Cat reflects that Shella Whent sits alone with her ghosts in Harrenhall but it is never explained what happened to her daughter. Plus if the Whents were in league with Rhaegar and his bachelor cohorts, then this would explain why Connington would have Lemore in his inner circle.

[Ygrain]

One theory that I've never heard discussed is the possibility that Lemore is the unnamed Whent girl at the Harrenhall tourney. Lady Cat is fairly strong in the faith, so I assume she was brought up in the faith by her mom, Minisa Whent. GRRM confirmed that Lady Shella Whent was the mother to the Whent girl present at the tourney. Cat reflects that Shella Whent sits alone with her ghosts in Harrenhall but it is never explained what happened to her daughter. Plus if the Whents were in league with Rhaegar and his bachelor cohorts, then this would explain why Connington would have Lemore in his inner circle.

Now this is an interesting theory - the only issue with it is a complete lack of buildup, or have I missed anything?

This is basically one of my two objections to Wenda. Why would JonCon accept such a random individual into the inner circle. I have no doubt that once we hear both Lemore and Haldon's back story we will learn that they are Targaryen loyalists of unimpeachable cred. The story of Wenda has given us no reason to believe that she would dedicate her life to returning the Targaryens to the IT.

It is obvious how Ulmer survived. He took the Black. Taking the Black is the one alternative offered to almost any man convicted of a crime. In the case of the Kingswood Brotherhood it is obvious that the alternative offered would be death. As Wenda was a woman and women have no place at the Wall (or didn't until recently), I don't see where there would have been any alternative for her. Maybe she could have been sent to the silent sisters, but who was going to make sure she stayed.

As far as I'm concerned these two questions need to be answered in order for Wenda to be a good candidate for Lemore. Why would JonCon trust her to be part of the group and why wasn't she just executed?

And what makes you think that JonCon would be aware of her identity as Wenda? And, since we don't know awfully much about Wenda, how can we claim that she would have no reason to support the Targs?

As for Wenda not being executed, the stretchmarks might be a clue - she might have avoided execution by "pleading the belly".

[Greymoon]

Frey family Reunion,

I think the reason Connington has Wenda in his inner circle, is simply to do with their connection to Myles Toyne. Did Connington even have a choice? If Lemore is Wenda, then, it seems that after the Kingswood Brotherhood, she fled to Essos. Was Simon Toyne her lover? That's possible, in which case, her child might have been a Toyne, too, furthering her connection to that House, and giving her greater motivation to seek out Myles.

But even if Simon wasn't her lover, he was the leader of the Kingswood Brotherhood, and his name was possibly the only connection Wenda had to Essos. Thus, it would make sense, if she fled into exile, that she sought out Myles Toyne.

And what is the leader of the Golden Company to do with a woman, who isn't a sell sword? If said man finds he has a moral obligation to see her safe, he finds her a place where she can be of use and protected from his own men. So, he sends her away on the next opportunity... enter, the fAegon plot.

In that case, Myles's reasoning was probably along that line: women are meant to be good at child rearing, and that one being a soiled septa, could teach about the seven pointed stars, as well. Better for her to serve as substitute mother to fAegon, than be employed as a whore in a brothel -- or continue to burden him with her presence.

As for Jon Connington, he might have found that having a woman help him raise the child, was good too. What did he know about child rearing?

What this supposes, essentially, is that Wenda wasn't chosen for any specific reason, but for her acquaintance with Toyne... it implies that she got involved in the plot because she was available and in need of a purpose to her life, post-brotherhood. Having Wenda involved in Aegon's education, spared Varys, Toyne, or even Connington having to look for another woman of uncertain loyalty and background.

[bent branch]

Now this is an interesting theory - the only issue with it is a complete lack of buildup, or have I missed anything?

And what makes you think that JonCon would be aware of her identity as Wenda? And, since we don't know awfully much about Wenda, how can we claim that she would have no reason to support the Targs?

As for Wenda not being executed, the stretchmarks might be a clue - she might have avoided execution by "pleading the belly".

Let's say that you are right. That Lemore is Wenda. How exactly is that going to work? The people in this operation are not only important to raising Aegon, but forming his earliest group of close advisers. If Lemore is proven be Wenda, then Aegon will have no chance at gaining legitimacy. This is not an argument about whether Aegon is Rhaegar's son or not. Even if Aegon is fake, especially if Aegon is fake, he will need the legitimacy of the people around him to help him have legitimacy. To have it revealed that one of Aegon's closest advisers is a harden criminal will be a stain against him. Do you think Varys and Illyrio are that incompetent? You've taken a very tenuous link, the relationship between the two Toynes and spun it into a rather implausible theory. What is the relationship between the Toynes? Myles was born in Essos. The chances are good that Myles and Simon are no more than second cousins who never even met.

No, you need to consider the political ramifications of Lemore's true identity. Ashara, Mellario and the unnamed Whent girl all have the possibility of adding to Aegon's legitimacy. Wenda would just destroy Aegon. Whoever Lemore is, she was carefully vetted to add the maximum amount of credibility to Aegon's claim. And to think that JonCon isn't completely aware of the political minefield that Aegon will have to traverse is just wishful thinking.

Wenda is totally implausible as Lemore.

[LordQorgyle]

And Ashara with purple eyes is plausible?

Or Mellario who is currently in Norvos?

And the Whent girl knew Aegon before the sack to give him credibility

Oh and Duck and Haldon are nobles or knightswho would give it?

For that there is Connington who is enough

[Ygrain]

Let's say that you are right. That Lemore is Wenda. How exactly is that going to work? The people in this operation are not only important to raising Aegon, but forming his earliest group of close advisers. If Lemore is proven be Wenda, then Aegon will have no chance at gaining legitimacy. This is not an argument about whether Aegon is Rhaegar's son or not. Even if Aegon is fake, especially if Aegon is fake, he will need the legitimacy of the people around him to help him have legitimacy. To have it revealed that one of Aegon's closest advisers is a harden criminal will be a stain against him. Do you think Varys and Illyrio are that incompetent? You've taken a very tenuous link, the relationship between the two Toynes and spun it into a rather implausible theory. What is the relationship between the Toynes? Myles was born in Essos. The chances are good that Myles and Simon are no more than second cousins who never even met.

No, you need to consider the political ramifications of Lemore's true identity. Ashara, Mellario and the unnamed Whent girl all have the possibility of adding to Aegon's legitimacy. Wenda would just destroy Aegon. Whoever Lemore is, she was carefully vetted to add the maximum amount of credibility to Aegon's claim. And to think that JonCon isn't completely aware of the political minefield that Aegon will have to traverse is just wishful thinking.

Wenda is totally implausible as Lemore.

First, as I stated even in the OP, I admit the possibility that the Wenda trail may not lead to Lemore. However, if you take care to re-read it, the info dump on the Brotherhood, the Toynes and Wenda is there. The fact that Simon and Myles may have never met is not really that important, what matters is that GRRM chose the leader of the Brotherhood and of the GC to be both Toynes when they easily could have been of completely different families. Same, GRRM chose to repeat the totally inconsequential Wenda story - why? Why was Wenda called White Fawn, and our mysterious character wears white clothes? You may disagree with my conclusions all you want but don't reduce the premises solely to the Toynes.

If Lemore was Wenda, it was almost twenty years ago. Today, she is just a septa. Who would recognize her, who and why, other than mystery-loving Tyrion, should start doubting her identity? Those who used to know her are mostly dead and she's hardly going to avertise her past (and if Varys and Illyrio hired her only in Essos, they may not even know themselves).

Aegon's legitimacy is backed by JonCon as Rhaegar's close friend, and you are overestimating the role that Lemore or Haldon would play in Aegon's role as a claimant. According to JonCon, Lemore's task was to teach Aegon the Faith, nothing more. Don't you think that if she was to play such a crucial role in supporting Aegon's claim as you ascribe her, JonCon would have thought something a bit different? - BTW, by your logic, Haldon as half-maester would be a huge setback, as well, yet he doesn't seem to be considered one.

The only point I concede is Wenda's lack of reason to support the Targs but that is not insurmountable, either. Her motivation may not be out of loyalty to the Targs but e.g. to a Targ supporter, or she may support the Targs because she is anti-Baratheon.

[Lost Melnibonean]

And Ashara with purple eyes is plausible?

Or Mellario who is currently in Norvos?

And the Whent girl knew Aegon before the sack to give him credibility

Oh and Duck and Haldon are nobles or knightswho would give it?

For that there is Connington who is enough

What about the Mad Maid? She's plausible, no?

[LordQorgyle]

I doubt since for all we know she had no child and is in the Hightower with Lord Lleyton but is more plausible than Ashara