OberynBlackfyre Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 for a compendium on dragon ridings that we know so far I point to my thread Fire and Blood: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/101626-blood-and-fire-containing-spoilers-from-tpatq-to-twow/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs.Grumpy Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I don't know if it's real but I saw this on tumblr and the guy who posted that says he was at ConCarolinas reading. Q: What can you tell us about a warg dragon rider?A: There is no history/precedent for someone warging a dragon. There is a rich history of the mythical bond between dragon and rider. There have been instances of dragons responding to their riders even from very far away (hmm) which shows it is a true and very strong bond. We will learn more about this. Keep reading (we hear “keep writing” from the back of the room). So the bond is magical but I think dragon babies (except Rhaego) are genetic problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starspear Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share Posted June 14, 2014 Q: What can you tell us about a warg dragon rider? A: There is no history/precedent for someone warging a dragon. There is a rich history of the mythical bond between dragon and rider. There have been instances of dragons responding to their riders even from very far away (hmm) which shows it is a true and very strong bond. We will learn more about this. Keep reading (we hear “keep writing” from the back of the room). This confirms suggestion in TPATQ with regards to Sunfyre and Aegon II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alysanne™ Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I don't know if it's real but I saw this on tumblr and the guy who posted that says he was at ConCarolinas reading. So the bond is magical but I think dragon babies (except Rhaego) are genetic problems. Its real http://www.staceysimms.com/george-r-r-martin-qa/ This confirms suggestion in TPATQ with regards to Sunfyre and Aegon II. Yea that's what came to my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I can definitely ship this as well, however it would still boil down to shared blood. And the only thing I question is why would a HUMAN of Valyrian descent have a dragon-like baby, rather than a Dragon hatching a mutated like human-bat wing-dragon? Rhaenyra also birthed something of the like as well. Therefore I think this shows that the Valyrians have something more within THEM than within the dragons. This would also account for the real ups and downs of the Targaryen dynasty in some ways as well. Not also explain things like Targ dreams, and why in those dreams, all of them have been about dragons. Why would this mean dragons should lay human-like creatures? Magic seems to have a root in blood sacrifice. Dany's dragon eggs were quickened via blood sacrifice. Rhaego's life was transferred into at least one of the dormant eggs. So this shows us that a human baby was magically infused into dragon eggs, that hatched live dragons. The chain is human blood -> the dragon. Not the other way around, as Rhaego died, and therefore, any dragon biology that was transferred to him isn't being passed on. How does the ability to see the future relate to dragons? Does greensight translate to sharing some literal piece of biology with dragons too? Or perhaps more apropos, do greenseers have sap in their veins? Why is it a necessary conclusion that Valyrian ability stems from a literal possession of dragon biology? I really think it's more likely that both groups of people tapped into magic by putting their own blood sacrifice into totems like the trees and dragons, and over time, harnessed the abilities, passing them down through generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alysanne™ Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Why would this mean dragons should lay human-like creatures? Magic seems to have a root in blood sacrifice. Dany's dragon eggs were quickened via blood sacrifice. Rhaego's life was transferred into at least one of the dormant eggs. So this shows us that a human baby was magically infused into dragon eggs, that hatched live dragons. The chain is human blood -> the dragon. Not the other way around, as Rhaego died, and therefore, any dragon biology that was transferred to him isn't being passed on. I actually like your theory of blood from human to the dragon it ties to Dany's dream where her blood was on Drogon's scales which would mean the dragon gains something from human blood and in return he gave her a fire blessing. Also Euron's horn says, "blood for fire" and "fire for blood" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I actually like your theory of blood from human to the dragon it ties to Dany's dream where her blood was on Drogon's scales which would mean the dragon gains something from human blood and in return he gave her a fire blessing. Also Euron's horn says, "blood for fire" and "fire for blood" Yea, and that's a really good point about the horn. I'm curious about the wierwoods too, to this end, as they're kind of anthropomorphic. Their sap is like blood, their leaves are like human hands (as opposed to the 4-fingered CotF), and Bran's tree comes alive at the moment of a blood sacrifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alysanne™ Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Yea, and that's a really good point about the horn. I'm curious about the wierwoods too, to this end, as they're kind of anthropomorphic. Their sap is like blood, their leaves are like human hands (as opposed to the 4-fingered CotF), and Bran's tree comes alive at the moment of a blood sacrifice. Wow I never noticed that, the weirwoods do seem very "humane" in a way, I can now see the parallel of how blood sacrifices awaken both them and the dragons. Both dragons and the werwood trees seem to be the gate of tapping into different streams of magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Deleted because I thought the topic should be covered in a separate thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 snip I thought you would know (oh oh oh :P) that Maegor was almost surely shooting blanks. Either that, or all eight or nine of his wives were barren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I thought you would know (oh oh oh :P) that Maegor was almost surely shooting blanks. Either that, or all eight or nine of his wives were barren. Yes, good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starspear Posted June 15, 2014 Author Share Posted June 15, 2014 Yes, good point. Even so, Denys is probably someone's by-blow, given his features. :P Question still stands: How do we know that any of the successful dragonseeds were actually Targaryen? If GRRM really wanted to hammer home (no pun intended) the point that you must have Targaryen blood to successfuly ride a dragon, why leave the actual identity of the seeds so ambiguous? That just muddies the water even more. It's GRRM's writing style. The ambiguity successfully conveys an aura of truth precisely because of the vagueness. Dunk and Egg. TPATQ. ASOIAF main books. Many times, he hides the truth in a "maybe". He wants readers to be skeptical, yet underneath it all, he is a believer (of magic, fantasy, etc.). As for Nettles - I have another thread elsewhere with the quote - but in "The Sworn Sword", Egg is described as becoming as brown as a Dornishman when in Dorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I'd argue that Nettles tames Sheepstealer by giving him sheep and conditioning him to her presence, not because she's actually a Targaryen (and no, it's not just her looks; we are literally told exactly how she does it). Dany nearly gets burned by Drogon like everyone else, until she whips him. Call me crazy, but I think the causality here is the whip. Dany is obviously actually a Targaryen, but saying that she cowed Drogon with her magic blood as opposed to the whip is ... illogical. Again, the stone soup fable. That is precisely what it is. I can't recall anyone having to lure a wolf with meat or whip a wolf before they could warg it. That's hardly unambiguous though. Nettles could have conceivably been a Targ bastard, and it was that, plus the sheep, that got her Sheepstealer (showing that simply having drops of Valyrian blood is not always enough and/or that dragons are more tractable when fed). But there's no more evidence either for that than for your theory. So I don't think we can say, with certainty, that dragons can be tamed like normal animals. Anyway, regardless of whether they are or are not literally "blood of the dragon", they do seem to have churned out a few seers and, according to GRRM, they do have a high heat tolerance. I'd say that makes them special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Anyway, regardless of whether they are or are not literally "blood of the dragon", they do seem to have churned out a few seers and, according to GRRM, they do have a high heat tolerance. I'd say that makes them special. I'll give you the seer thing, but that's not exactly limited to Targaryens. The Dornish also have a high tolerance for heat, because they're from a desert climate. The northerners in Stannis's camp do better in the cold, because they're acclimated to it. The Targaryens come from Essos, which is a warmer climate. Are the Dornish and northerners "special" too? The "heat tolerance" thing just strikes me as reaching. If it won't save you from molten gold, wildfire, dragonfire, normal fire, etc., what good is it and why are we acting like it's a BFD? ETA: Dany thinks of the weather as "too hot" to ride in a palanquin on her wedding day, and when she and Selmy go to see her two chained dragons, she describes the air in the dungeon as "uncomfortably hot," and she's sweating. When she is in Astapor viewing the Unsullied, it's so hot that she feels "light-headed," even in the shade. There are multiple instances in the books when Dany describes being uncomfortably hot or too hot or the weather being unbearable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 The Targs were zoophiles? :ack: Do dragons even have compatible...um...parts? I'll give you the seer thing, but that's not exactly limited to Targaryens. The Dornish also have a high tolerance for heat, because they're from a desert climate. The northerners in Stannis's camp do better in the cold, because they're acclimated to it. The Targaryens come from Essos, which is a warmer climate. Are the Dornish and northerners "special" too? The "heat tolerance" thing just strikes me as reaching. If it won't save you from molten gold, wildfire, dragonfire, normal fire, etc., what good is it and why are we acting like it's a BFD? Alright, higher tolerance than other humans, then. And if you don't like it, go take it up with GRRM! I know it's not just Targs with premonitive dreams, just like warging isn't limited to the Starks, but it's pretty special that the family produced at least four seers (that we know of, and that I can think of). I'm pretty sure one of the Blackfyres had dragon dreams too, but I can't remember where I saw that (D&E maybe?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Alright, higher tolerance than other humans, then. And if you don't like it, go take it up with GRRM! I don't dispute that they have a higher heat tolerance. But again, so do the Dornish, and on the opposite end of the spectrum, northerners tolerate cold better. And you don't have people pointing at either of them saying how special they are for having that kind of tolerance. Again, at the end of the day, if you can't withstand the extreme heat when it actually counts (e.g. when you're in a fire, in the Red Waste, getting engulfed in dragonflame, getting molten gold poured over your head, having to ride around town in a palanquin), does it really matter a whit that you like your baths hot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starspear Posted June 15, 2014 Author Share Posted June 15, 2014 Do dragons even have compatible...um...parts? Alright, higher tolerance than other humans, then. And if you don't like it, go take it up with GRRM! I know it's not just Targs with premonitive dreams, just like warging isn't limited to the Starks, but it's pretty special that the family produced at least four seers (that we know of, and that I can think of). I'm pretty sure one of the Blackfyres had dragon dreams too, but I can't remember where I saw that (D&E maybe?). Not necessarily sex - but some kind of ritual. Not just UV and IR heat resistance, but thermal resistance across the board; including scalding water. There's plenty of supernatural and superpower in ASOIAF. Nothing wrong with dat. Yes - "Fiddler" Blackfyre had premonitions. See "The Mystery Knight". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 ^ ^ Yeah, that's what I mean. My grandfather grew up in hot climates but he didn't enjoy scalding hot baths like Danearys does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 ^ ^ Yeah, that's what I mean. My grandfather grew up in hot climates but he didn't enjoy scalding hot baths like Danearys does. I enjoy scalding hot baths. Maybe I'm a secret Targ. With hot-bath superpowers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 ^ ^ Yeah, that's what I mean. My grandfather grew up in hot climates but he didn't enjoy scalding hot baths like Danearys does. Dany's baths aren't remarked upon by anyone else but her. If they were unusually hot, one would think her slaves/maids would express concern so the reader was aware that her hot baths were something entirely different from the hot baths all the other highborn and/or wealthy enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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