Heresy 120

[Frey family reunion]

Val has one.

So if we can have dragonbone daggers, surely we can have dragonbone swords. Swords which can be lit on fire without having to worry about the sword breaking. Perhaps what the Andals mistakenly identified as Dragonsteel?

[Voice]

So if we can have dragonbone daggers, surely we can have dragonbone swords. Swords which can be lit on fire without having to worry about the sword breaking. Perhaps what the Andals mistakenly identified as Dragonsteel?

Do you mean the catspaw's blade? I think the handle alone was dragonbone.

[Frey family reunion]

Do you mean the catspaw's blade? I think the handle alone was dragonbone.

I meant Val's but, you're right that was just ordinary old bone not dragonbone, and the catspaw just had a bone handle. So never mind. Nothing to see.

[wolfmaid7]

That would mean the Wall pre-dates the Watch, yes ? That would mean they couldn't have fought in the war for the dawn (assuming that actually did come prior to the raising of the wall, or in fact that it actually happened at all). I must admit, I always felt the NW has to pre-date the Wall in some form. They must have been formed in the Long Night, as literally a "night's watch", folks who would keep fires burning through the night (red priest alert, red priest alert) in villages, towns etc.

I would say it predates what we come to know as the watch with its hundreds of men and many castles,but i'm putting the Wall going up soon after the armies of the dead had there time.I don't think there was ever a battle for "The Dawn" where the NW rode out and defeated anything,but that like Jeepers Creepers their time just ran out.It was time for them to go..The great feast turn culling was over and to ensure the Wight population not get out of control the next time the Wall was erected and a lord of sorts was placed on the Wall to Watch that was his task.Then when he died another tok his place.

On this dreary, drizzly day in Minnesota, I have prepared a possible Winterfell and Nights King origin. Please take your time reading through it all, but I warn you, it is quite long.

Romulus, Remus, the Sabine, and cognomen.

Romulus and Remus are the twin brothers and central characters of Rome’s foundation myth. I was wondering if we could draw parallels between the Nights King and Romulus, and the origins of Winterfell to Rome. It’s funny what circumstances directed me to look up the founding of Rome. I was watching the new FX show Fargo and Billy Bob Thornton’s character said that Rome was built from the children of wolves.

Romulus and Remus’s mother, Rhea Silvia, was the daughter of King Numitor of Alba Longa. King Numitor’s brother, Amulius seizes power, kills Numitor’s male heirs and forces Rhea Silvia to become a Vestal Virgin, sworn to chastity, but while in captivity Rhea Silvia conceives the twins Romulus and Remus by the god Mars (or the demigod Hercules). Imagine if there were a King of the First Men when they first came to Westeros who was overthrown by his brother. We do have a similar story with the Nights King. The Rhea of the Westeros story is the Other in the story that seduces the Nights King. If the brother of the Nights King was responsible for his overthrow, then Numitor and Amulius are the Starks.

After seeing his sister-in-law pregnant and after she gave birth, one account has Amulius having Rhea buried alive and her children abandoned to die of exposure near the river Tiber, both means of disposal would avoid his direct blood-guilt. In every version the servant charged with leaving the children cannot bring himself to harm the twins, so he fashions a basket and puts them out into the river. The closest river to the Wall is the Milkwater, but my intuition favors that the river the child(ren) were left near was the Trident, however the Tiber of the Romulus and Remus story has its origin in mountain springs. It is interesting that their mother, Rhea was buried alive, which could also imply that the vision of the blue rose growing out of the Wall is actually the buried wife of the Nights King.

The river deity, Tiberinus catches the basket with the roots of a fig tree (weirwood?), then a she-wolf named Lupa finds and suckles them, a woodpecker feeds them, and later a shepherd and his wife find and foster them to adulthood. The two grow up as simple shepherds, but prove to be natural leaders. They each acquire many followers. When they discover the truth of their origins, they kill their uncle Amulius and restore their father Numitor to his throne. Rather than wait to inherit, they choose to found a new city. (Maybe Numitor was reestablished at Moat Cailin and Romulus and Remus establish Winterfell?)

Romulus and Remus disagree on the location of the new city. They agree to settle matters by the use of Augury, which is a way of interpreting omens from the observed flight of birds. Romulus and Remus each believe the augur favors themselves, so they quarrel again and Remus is killed. Romulus founds the new city, names it Rome after himself, and creates its first legions and senate, and the city rapidly grows with swells of landless, unmarried male refugees.

The unmarried refugees capture wives from neighboring Sabines. (Sounds familiar to the wildling tradition.) Many Roman historians regard the origins of indigenous Romans to be Greek, and the Sabines as being the aboriginals. Who might be the Sabine women of Westeros? Perhaps this is where Val comes from? The Roman abduction of Sabine women results in a war between the two peoples which only ends when the Sabine women throw themselves and their children between their fathers and husbands. An interesting tidbit from this conflict is that when the Sabine’s march on the Romans to demand their daughters back, they go to assault its Capitoline citadel. The citadel commander’s daughter Tarpeia opened the gates for them, in return for “what they wear on their left arms”. She was expecting their golden bracelets, but the Sabines crush her by throwing their shields on top of her, crushing her to death. Where else to we see gold handed over in exchange for passage? The wildlings give Jon gold as they pass through the Wall. In the end, maybe it was the wildlings that stabbed Jon?

The death of Romulus

According to legend, Romulus mysteriously disappeared in a storm or whirlwind shortly after offering public sacrifice at or near the Quirinal Hill. Quirinal Hill is one of the Seven Hills of Rome and is northeast of the city center. It’s the official residence of the Italian Head of State. According to Roman legend, the Quirinal Hill was the site of a small village of the Sabines. The Sabines erected altars to their god Quirinus. Quirinus is an early god and also an nickname of Janus and may be derived from the Sabine word quiris which means “spear”. It is also likely an adjective meaning “wielder of the spear”. Other suggestions include that Quirinus is the oak-god and Quirites as the men of the oaken spear. We’ve read about oaks or acorns. The old mill where Theon took the two boys to replace Bran and Rickon was “sitting lonely on the Acorn Water.” When Arya met the Brotherhood, they took her to Acorn Hall, “with its stone curtain walls and great oaken keep.” and where Lady Smallwood cleaned and dressed Arya in “brown woolen stockings and a light linen shift, and over that a light green gown with acorns embroidered all over the bodice in brown thread, and more acorns bordering the hem.” If the Sabines are the aboriginals of Rome, then perhaps Val’s family are the aboriginals of the North?

A “foul-suspicion” arises that the Roman Senate, weary of kingly government, (sounds familiar, i.e., wildlings refusing to kneel) plot to take Romulus’s life (Nights King overthrow, anyone?) and take him away so that they might assume his authority and government into their own hands. One man (Proculus) took oath that he saw Romulus caught up into heaven dressed in his arms and vestments, and heard him cry out that from now on everyone should style him by the name of Quirinus. Wouldn’t it be interesting if it turns out that the Nights King was taken away by a great snowstorm, and his “senate” the 12 followers took over his (the Nightfort or Winterfell?) “hill” or residence? That would suggest that the snowstorm emanating out of Winterfell is (Quirinus) the Nights King returning.

Ancient pictures of Romulus and Remus usually follow symbolic traditions, depending upon the legend they follow. They either depict shepherds, their foster mother the she-wolf, the twins under a fig tree (this strikes a chord), and one or two birds, or they show the twins in a cave.

Cognomen (cranogmen?)

The “cognomen”; Latin plural con and nomen or “together with”, refers to the third name of a citizen of ancient Rome. Cognomen started as a nickname, but lost that purpose when it became hereditary. Hereditary cognomina were used to augment the second name (family name or clan name) in order to identify a particular branch within a family or family within a clan. The word “cognomen” sounds remarkably similar to “cranogmen”, which makes me think that the Reeds are a relative or branch within the Stark family. Being that the cranogmen in the story live in in the bogs of the Trident, could the Reeds be the family that originally raised the abandoned Stark child(ren) left exposed and then carried by the river? Are the Reeds the shepherds from the Romulus story, or are they the remnant Sabine?

Since you've read some of the material for the Alba Longa, would you care to take over? I've been fighting off some type of stomach bug all morning and it's reaching the point where I need to lie down. Ugh! I did read that the origins of the Alba Longa were refugees of Trojans fleeing the fall of Troy. I'm sure many parallels could be drawn between Troy and Valyria. If I were to work on this, I'd have to wait until whatever is wrong with me passes. Literally.

I like the paralles being drawn here,and i have to ask for clarification on some concepts. So in addition to the NK and the SIW parallel this could also apply too the "two Direwolves fighting" i think it was Symeon Star eyes.

I'm not on your three fingered enemies bandwagon BC, but an antler bone dagger sounds more like a Singer's weapon than that of a sworn brother.

I thought the splintering alluded to an actual fight between a Stag and Mama Direwolf.Then again the alternative has merit,i expected the Stag to be seriously injured and possibly dead and not far off.Its a small thing i know,but the only injury seen was the antler in the throat nothing else was reported to indicate it had been in a head on fight with a Stag.

Using a spoiler tag for those that don't want to know...

Looks like Brienne and the REAL Hound will fight instead of Rorge in his helm.

Well i wonder what else

[Eira Seren]

I'd like to pick up on Uldra's comment in the last thread about sleepers.

Its a very common/popular theme in folklore that a hero or group of heroes from long long ago are sleeping, usually in a cave, and if the warning is sounded will wake again to return and save the land from danger.

snip

Before I venture into Feather Crystal's post, which really should wait til I sleep, let me just say that when I read this, bells went off. King Arthur, Avalon, the Isle of Apples, seeds. . . Slowly I am starting to change my mind about the WW being one of the old races. Now I see them as seeds, sprouting up or returning to protect. . . something.

Though what if they were one of the old races, and either the Starks are like the Valyrians, who went further south and survived (something. Whatever happened at Hardhome, perhaps?), or what we have now aren't a pure-blooded race of WW, but what was created when the First Men and WW intermingled following their migration/invasion to Essos? Pots, lots of pots cracking!

. . .

He mentions "a Stark in Winterfell" not once, but twice. I find that interesting. It seems to me either that means is it no more than a common saying, or, it is such an old important one that even men from the mountain clans mutter it. If that phrase has a deeper meaning, as theories of the Stark connection to Winter suggest, I think Liddle's mention of it is not without it's own deeper meaning.

He never tells them his name, nor asks theirs. This reminds me of Coldhands a bit. Just as Coldhands leads Sam and Gilly to the Black Gate, so too does the Liddle man send Bran, Jojen, and Meera there. He doesn't guide them there personally like Coldhands, but they do decide to head toward the Night Fort based partly on his advice regarding the kingsroad and the wolfswood.

I'm probably reading too much into it/him. But he does seem to be especially well informed of the NW rangings north of the Wall.

So, as I think about possible hornblowers, the Liddle man comes to mind. I felt like he was passing through, but it in the opposite direction as Bran. That's just a feeling though and there isn't anything to suggest it in the text. He seemed to understand the need for Starks in Winterfell, as well as the timing of their absence. And lastly, he knew far more than he really should regarding the NW ranging north with so few men returning, and the lack of messages with the returning ravens. I seems a bit odd to me, considering Liddle is traveling and has no means of collecting messages by raven himself. Admittedly, this is all extremely circumstantial and assumes much.

This guy is one of those details that I just love because he seems so par for the course, until we stop and really examine him. Are the Northern clans keeping a close eye on the Wall and the NW? (Why?) Is he reporting back to his leaders? Later, when Jon's in charge, a Flint and Norrey show up at the Wall.

[addicted to snow]

Let's hope. B/c if the Aerys line were true, I can see us arguing for the rest of eternity about whether or not this counts as canon and we now know the ID of the second dragon rider... which is an argument I could really do without, given that the books have been very unclear on this and there will be no way to settle it until WoW comes out. :frown5:

Unclear??? In my opinion, the books could not have been more clear on the fact that tyrion will eventually gain control of & ride one of Dany's Dragons.

The foreshadowing is everywhere…

Probably more foreshadowing on Tyrion's future dragon than on the nature of Jon's reincarnation… all the necessary hints are laid out for those who can put them together - though in the case of Jon's reincarnation, you also have to consider GRRM's statement about his "very specific plot device" that is related to the wall...

[Black Crow]

Yeah but we saw the stag in the show BC, can't have it both ways buddy :D

True... true...

Nevertheless I'm still inclined to go with my own suggestion because it makes sense of tying up the simultaneous appearance of Gared and the she-wolf and the delivery of the pups to the Starks and that it was all a willing sacrifice by the she-wolf

[Black Crow]

I thought the splintering alluded to an actual fight between a Stag and Mama Direwolf.Then again the alternative has merit,i expected the Stag to be seriously injured and possibly dead and not far off.Its a small thing i know,but the only injury seen was the antler in the throat nothing else was reported to indicate it had been in a head on fight with a Stag.

It was the description of the of the antler having the tines broken off which set us off on the thought that it was actually a dagger - many heresies back someone [i think Toccs] came up with a photograph of a real one.

[WierWood Wolf]

I meant Val's but, you're right that was just ordinary old bone not dragonbone, and the catspaw just had a bone handle. So never mind. Nothing to see.

I believe it's described as a dragonbone handle and Valyrian steel blade.

[King of Winters]

True... true...

Nevertheless I'm still inclined to go with my own suggestion because it makes sense of tying up the simultaneous appearance of Gared and the she-wolf and the delivery of the pups to the Starks and that it was all a willing sacrifice by the she-wolf

I'm not sure about it being a willing sacrifice by the she-wolf, but I think that someone has been planning this for some time and waiting for the perfect moment to deliver the pups to the Starks. Maybe to coincide with Bran being there for the first time, as it was him who persuaded Ned not to kill the pups, without Bran there might not have been any Direwolves for the Starks.

[wolfmaid7]

It was the description of the of the antler having the tines broken off which set us off on the thought that it was actually a dagger - many heresies back someone [i think Toccs] came up with a photograph of a real one.

Ah yes I recall.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not sure about it being a willing sacrifice by the she-wolf, but I think that someone has been planning this for some time and waiting for the perfect moment to deliver the pups to the Starks. Maybe to coincide with Bran being there for the first time, as it was him who persuaded Ned not to kill the pups, without Bran there might not have been any Direwolves for the Starks.

It was actually Jon who convinced Ned with his beautiful observation if how many pups and how many kids, and how his children were meant to have them.

[King of Winters]

It was actually Jon who convinced Ned with his beautiful observation if how many pups and how many kids, and how his children were meant to have them.

Oh was it? My mistake then. I think though that someone was waiting for them all to be there together and then give them the pups so it's even more a sign.

[Black Crow]

It was indeed Jon, but nevertheless your point remains that an awful lot came together at that moment: Ser Waymar's patrol got scragged; the sole survivor turned up near Winterfell; the male Starks attended his execution, and; the dead she-wolf is then discovered with a pup to fit each Stark child, including the bastard. Manipulation of some kind is going on there, hence the suggestion that the killing of the she-wolf wasn't an accident.

[King of Winters]

I think the "mastermind(s)" has to be the COTF and Bloodraven for the purpose of reinstating the Kings of Winter in the North, which could explain the recent appearances of the WW, with their connections to the Starks.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...Are the Northern clans keeping a close eye on the Wall and the NW? (Why?) Is he reporting back to his leaders? Later, when Jon's in charge, a Flint and Norrey show up at the Wall.

.

And one of them carries a shillelagh. In fact, we see two of the sticks suddenly in ADWD... both carried by male leaders of northern clans. One appears at the Wall (can't remember if it was Flint or Norrey), and the other is mentioned (I think) in one of Theon's chapters at Winterfell - carried either by an Umber or a Karstark. Martin doesn't use the word "shillelagh" though - I think he just describes them as "blackthorn" canes.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shillelagh_(club)

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[Frey family reunion]

Not sure if it means anything or not but Maester Aemon is also in possession of a blackthorn cane:

from ASOS when Jon is brought up before Ser Alliser Thorne and an assembled group where they had Rattleshirt identify Jon as the one who killed the Halfhand:

He saw Maester Aemon standing by the fire, his hands folded around the head of a blackthorn cane.

[TheButcherCrow]

It was the description of the of the antler having the tines broken off which set us off on the thought that it was actually a dagger - many heresies back someone [i think Toccs] came up with a photograph of a real one.

I must have missed the fact the tines were snapped off, here's the quote for anyone who was like me:

His father knelt and groped under the beast’s head with his hand. He gave a yank and held it up for all to see. A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood.

A sudden silence descended over the party. The men looked at the antler uneasily, and no one dared to speak. Even Bran could sense their fear, though he did not understand.

That's unexpected and directly contradicts what we saw in the show. In the show we see not only a dead stag with a snapped off antler but the antler stuck in Mama Grey is rocking a full complement of tines (and is much larger than a foot). So in cases of direct contradiction, book wins.

I bolded the second bit because I was wondering if the uneasy silence that befalls the men is because Gared told them they would find a dead direwolf in exactly the place they found a dead direwolf ?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Not sure if it means anything or not but Maester Aemon is also in possession of a blackthorn cane:

from ASOS when Jon is brought up before Ser Alliser Thorne and an assembled group where they had Rattleshirt identify Jon as the one who killed the Halfhand:

.

Huh. Nice catch - I hadn't noticed that. And wouldn't have expected it, simply because I took the potential connections to Irish folklore to be more of a Northern (as opposed to a Targaryen) characteristic. Aemon put aside his family name long ago, of course. I wonder if the canes bear any in-story significance, or if they just amount to descriptive detail? I don't know enough about the shillelagh to hazard a guess...

.

[TheButcherCrow]

.Huh. Nice catch - I hadn't noticed that. And wouldn't have expected it, simply because I took the potential connections to Irish folklore to be more of a Northern (as opposed to a Targaryen) characteristic. Aemon put aside his family name long ago, of course. I wonder if the canes bear any in-story significance, or if they just amount to descriptive detail? I don't know enough about the shillelagh to hazard a guess...

Blackthorn walking sticks are an irish speciality. Could be he just found it at Castle Black ?