Heresy 120

[Voice]

Nah, but he may have gotten a knock on the door soon afterwards...

On the question of who blew it, I'm not inclined to finger Benjen himself - or Bloodraven - but would still look to somebody above the Wall connected with the three-fingered lot, as they're the most likely to scry what really happened at Summerhall.

I think Benjen unlikely as well. If no one had seen white walkers until he went missing, it would fit better. The fresh cloak makes me think a sworn brother left it at the Fist. And while that brother is likely Benjen, that of course doesn't mean he's necessarily the one who blew it.

Has the mysterious Liddle man been discussed in heresy before?

Quote, Bran II ASOS:

Only once did they encounter any of the mountain people, when a sudden burst of freezing rain sent them looking for shelter. Summer found it for them, sniffing out a shallow cave behind the greygreen branches of a towering sentinel tree, but when Hodor ducked beneath the stony overhang, Bran saw the orange glow of fire farther back and realized they were not alone. "Come in and warm yourselves," a man's voice called out. "There's stone enough to keep the rain off all our heads."

He offered them oatcakes and blood sausage and a swallow of ale from a skin he carried, but never his name; nor did he ask theirs. Bran figured him for a Liddle. The clasp that fastened his squirrelskin cloak was gold and bronze and wrought in the shape of a pinecone, and the Liddles bore pinecones on the white half of their green-and-white shields.

"Is it far to the Wall?" Bran asked him as they waited for the rain to stop.

"Not so far as the raven flies," said the Liddle, if that was who he was. "Farther, for them as lacks wings."

Bran started, "I'd bet we'd be there if . . . "

" . . . we took the kingsroad," Meera finished with him.

The Liddle took out a knife and whittled at a stick. "When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast. But the nights are colder now, and doors are closed. There's squids in the wolfswood, and flayed men ride the kingsroad asking after strangers."

The Reeds exchanged a look. "Flayed men?" said Jojen.

"The Bastard's boys, aye. He was dead, but now he's not. And paying good silver for wolfskins, a man hears, and maybe gold for word of certain other walking dead." He looked at Bran when he said that, and at Summer stretched out beside him. "As to that Wall," the man went on, "it's not a place that I'd be going. The Old Bear took the Watch into the haunted woods, and all that come back was his ravens, with hardly a message between them. Dark wings, dark words, me mother used to say, but when the birds fly silent, seems to me that's even darker." He poked at the fire with his stick. "It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf's dead and young one's gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that's left us is the ghosts."

"The wolves will come again," said Jojen solemnly.

"And how would you be knowing, boy?"

"I dreamed it."

"Some nights I dream of me mother that I buried nine years past," the man said, "but when I wake, she's not come back to us."

"There are dreams and dreams, my lord."

"Hodor," said Hodor.

They spent that night together, for the rain did not let up till well past dark, and only Summer seemed to want to leave the cave. When the fire had burned down to embers, Bran let him go. The direwolf did not feel the damp as people did, and the night was calling him. Moonlight painted the wet woods in shades of silver and turned the grey peaks white. Owls hooted through the dark and flew silently between the pines, while pale goats moved along the mountainsides. Bran closed his eyes and gave himself up to the wolf dream, to the smells and sounds of midnight.

When they woke the next morning, the fire had gone out and the Liddle was gone, but he'd left a sausage for them, and a dozen oatcakes folded up neatly in a green and white cloth. Some of the cakes had pinenuts baked in them and some had blackberries. Bran ate one of each, and still did not know which sort he liked the best. One day there would be Starks in Winterfell again, he told himself, and then he'd send for the Liddles and pay them back a hundredfold for every nut and berry.

He mentions "a Stark in Winterfell" not once, but twice. I find that interesting. It seems to me either that means is it no more than a common saying, or, it is such an old important one that even men from the mountain clans mutter it. If that phrase has a deeper meaning, as theories of the Stark connection to Winter suggest, I think Liddle's mention of it is not without it's own deeper meaning.

He never tells them his name, nor asks theirs. This reminds me of Coldhands a bit. Just as Coldhands leads Sam and Gilly to the Black Gate, so too does the Liddle man send Bran, Jojen, and Meera there. He doesn't guide them there personally like Coldhands, but they do decide to head toward the Night Fort based partly on his advice regarding the kingsroad and the wolfswood.

I'm probably reading too much into it/him. But he does seem to be especially well informed of the NW rangings north of the Wall.

So, as I think about possible hornblowers, the Liddle man comes to mind. I felt like he was passing through, but it in the opposite direction as Bran. That's just a feeling though and there isn't anything to suggest it in the text. He seemed to understand the need for Starks in Winterfell, as well as the timing of their absence. And lastly, he knew far more than he really should regarding the NW ranging north with so few men returning, and the lack of messages with the returning ravens. I seems a bit odd to me, considering Liddle is traveling and has no means of collecting messages by raven himself. Admittedly, this is all extremely circumstantial and assumes much.

[MaesterSam]

It was found with dragonglass daggers, spear heads, and filled with dragonglass arrowheads, and dirt. I think it's worth noting the location it was found as well as that it was stored with tools to kill white walkers. This leads me to think the horn is also a tool to aid in the fight to kill white walkers.

As to who the Sleepers are, why not Giants? We have seen Wun Wun's defensive abilities in Jon's last chapter. And there haven't been many Giants as of yet. Maybe they need their own alarum before they show themselves. I think it highly unlikely that the horn effects the Wall in any other way than to defend it. It was a weapon used against Night's King after all.

Maybe the horn can control the ww's the same way Euron's hell horn controls dragons (supposedly)? I wonder if here, too, there is a price to pay for sounding the horn.

Then again, if this is also the horn that wakes the Sleepers (btw I like that they are capitalized now- makes them seem more important doesn't it? :) ) then maybe its purpose is not to control or kill the ww's at all, but to wake those who can. I agree, I find it unlikely that it physically brings down the Wall. The Wall seems like a pretty permanent structure that took a LOT of work to build, and I can't really think of any reason why such a horn would have been created. There are tunnels through it after all, plus men can get around it by ship, so I see no apparent reason to have an "emergency failsafe" to bring the whole thing crashing down.

It does seem strange, regardless of the horn's exact functions, that it was "lost" somewhere north of the Wall for apparently a long time. Or buried with Joramun, or whoever else. I would think that such an important artifact would be kept in a very safe place, not tossed in a tomb and forgotten about...

I wonder where Benjen (or Coldhands?) found it...

Unreliable.The source was someone who Ran knew was trolling so deleted both the poster and the thread.

The Hound/Brienne fight looks likely though

Let's hope. B/c if the Aerys line were true, I can see us arguing for the rest of eternity about whether or not this counts as canon and we now know the ID of the second dragon rider... which is an argument I could really do without, given that the books have been very unclear on this and there will be no way to settle it until WoW comes out. :frown5:

I'd like to pick up on Uldra's comment in the last thread about sleepers.

Its a very common/popular theme in folklore that a hero or group of heroes from long long ago are sleeping, usually in a cave, and if the warning is sounded will wake again to return and save the land from danger.

There are allusions to this in GRRM's text, both in the line of the Nights Watch oath declaring that they are the horn that wakes the sleepers, and the business of the horn of Joruman waking [giants] from the earth. What's interesting though is that the only other reference so far as I can recall to sleepers concerns the Others sleeping under the ice.

That then raises a question about the horn found by Sam wrapped in a Nights Watch cloak, not improbably connected with Benjen.

Has it already been sounded to wake the sleepers, ie; the Others, and if so why?

Indeed. This was my first thought as well (the ww's being the Sleepers), but so far I haven't been able to come up with a logical explanation for why the NW would want to wake the ww's.

I would like to think this supports an uber-heretical theory I sometimes toy with, that the ww's were originally a weapon used by the NW/ancient Starks to protect the realms of men, rather than being the enemy the realms are protected against. But like the dragons, the ww's need to be controlled, otherwise they wreak havoc. And maybe this is what happened in the original long night. There was a threat of some sort, and the ww's were created in order to fight it. But, magic is a sword without a hilt, and while they did defeat the enemy they also killed most of the human population of Westeros. Ooops. Big screw-up. Better change the history books and forget all about it. We don't know where they came from... they were just a random evil that appeared. Brave men killed them. They are not even real, just a legend really...

The original enemy is not mentioned anywhere b/c to acknowledge there was an enemy that was defeated by the ww's would lead people to ask questions.

Qyburn is an interesting parallel to this. He is showing us that you can use magic and necromancy to create unstoppable warriors that don't need food or sleep. I keep waiting for him (and the rest of KL) to realize this awesome new sword has no hilt.

This is where it gets interesting because that particular interpretation would fit with some of the other heretical theories we've discussed over the years, about a link between the Starks and the Old Gods, about the Starks on the Wall and a very different Nights Watch dedicated not to defending the Wall but to guarding the Black Gate between the realms.

I like this. Who are you suggesting the Black Gate is/was guarded against?

You see one of the problems we've always had is timing. Mance's grave-robbing may have released shades but it didn't raise the white walkers because it was the threat already posed by Craster's boys which got them all up the Milkwater and digging in the first place.

Plausibly its been suggested that the present stanza in the Song of Ice and Fire was begun by what happened at Summerhall; the raising of Fire. What if the counterpoint was the blowing of the horn to wake the sleepers?

The only thing I don't like about this is that it makes the horn in the present day unimportant. What's the point of Ghost finding it and Sam carrying it around, if we're just going to learn that 100 years ago, someone blew it and that's why the ww's are back? Too simple, IMO. But of course entirely possible.

[Uldra I]

I'd like to pick up on Uldra's comment in the last thread about sleepers.

Its a very common/popular theme in folklore that a hero or group of heroes from long long ago are sleeping, usually in a cave, and if the warning is sounded will wake again to return and save the land from danger.

There are allusions to this in GRRM's text, both in the line of the Nights Watch oath declaring that they are the horn that wakes the sleepers, and the business of the horn of Joruman waking [giants] from the earth. What's interesting though is that the only other reference so far as I can recall to sleepers concerns the Others sleeping under the ice.

That then raises a question about the horn found by Sam wrapped in a Nights Watch cloak, not improbably connected with Benjen.

Has it already been sounded to wake the sleepers, ie; the Others, and if so why?

This is where it gets interesting because that particular interpretation would fit with some of the other heretical theories we've discussed over the years, about a link between the Starks and the Old Gods, about the Starks on the Wall and a very different Nights Watch dedicated not to defending the Wall but to guarding the Black Gate between the realms.

You see one of the problems we've always had is timing. Mance's grave-robbing may have released shades but it didn't raise the white walkers because it was the threat already posed by Craster's boys which got them all up the Milkwater and digging in the first place.

Plausibly its been suggested that the present stanza in the Song of Ice and Fire was begun by what happened at Summerhall; the raising of Fire. What if the counterpoint was the blowing of the horn to wake the sleepers?

Thanks for this... should of kept reading the thread before responding to Maester Sam's earlier post. :)

[Frey family reunion]

The horn that wakes the sleepers, almost denotes a resurrection to me. I've been wondering for a while if there was a connection between the powers exhibited by the red priests (not their religion mind you but their powers) and the Nights Watch of old.

GRRM has specifically stated that he the inspiration of his Wall came from Hadrian's Wall. He has also stated that the religion of the red priests is based on Zoroastrianism, a religion that got its start in Persia however certain aspects of it were later adopted by the Romans. One aspect of that religion that the Romans adopted was a worship or following of Mithra, a god of the covenant. The Persians considered him a god of the morning as well.

We know that the Romans had a temple to Mithras at Hadrian's Wall. Schemendrick's post regarding Jon's role as Lightbringer details the numerous Mithraic symbols throughout Jon's chapters.

So historically we have an aspect of Zoroastrianism a Persian belief and the inspiration behind GRRM's Red Priests located at Hadrian's Wall which is the inspiration behind GRRM's Wall.

Then there are the similarities between the prayers of the Red Priests and the oath of the Night's Watch. We have Melisandre's observation that her powers have increased due to her proximity to the Wall. We have the imagery of a black cloak turning red (Mance's torn cloak) and a red robe turning black (Moqoro's red robe being replaced with a black Kraken sail.

We have the image of the Scarecrow lord, in Beric Dondarrion, and in the same book we are given the Wall's scarecrow sentinels dressed up as members of the Night's Watch and named after lost brothers.

And we are given the imagery of Beric "waking" Cat up with his fiery kiss a la the tale of Sleeping Beauty. Perhaps the horn is used to wake the "sleepers" on the Wall or to resurrect fallen Night's Watch brothers in flame.

[Black Crow]

I like this. Who are you suggesting the Black Gate is/was guarded against?

"guarding" is perhaps not quite the right word; what we've discussed in the past is one of these timeline problems.

The Black Gate is as old as the Wall. The Night Fort is twice as old as Castle Black. This means that if we go with the traditional dating, Castle Black is no more than 4,000 years old, perhaps a bit less depending exactly when the wall was built, ie; during or after the Long Night and if after, how long after.

Now there's nothing to indicate that Castle Black is newer than any of the other castles, although its theoretically possible. Nevertheless the express linkage between the Nightfort and Castle Black does at the very least suggest that there was a long gap between the raising of the Wall and the raising of the castles - at about the time the Andals arrived.

During that time the Nightfort was the only castle on the Wall and not necessarily in its present form, but perhaps only in the form of that circular building over the entrance to the Black Gate.

That being so, the original Watch, before the overthrow of the Nights King may have been no more than 13 heroes acting as gatekeepers.

[Melifeather]

I'm probably reading too much into it/him. But he does seem to be especially well informed of the NW rangings north of the Wall.

So, as I think about possible hornblowers, the Liddle man comes to mind. I felt like he was passing through, but it in the opposite direction as Bran. That's just a feeling though and there isn't anything to suggest it in the text. He seemed to understand the need for Starks in Winterfell, as well as the timing of their absence. And lastly, he knew far more than he really should regarding the NW ranging north with so few men returning, and the lack of messages with the returning ravens. I seems a bit odd to me, considering Liddle is traveling and has no means of collecting messages by raven himself. Admittedly, this is all extremely circumstantial and assumes much.

I would agree with you that the Liddle was especially well informed of the NW rangings north of the Wall. You would expect him to know the gossip south of the Wall with the Ironborn jn the wolfwoods and Ramsay's searching for Bran and Rickon. That is news that you would expect the northmen to know about, but how could he know what went on north of the Wall unless he were there? And if he was there, what was he doing there? Wildlings are known to climb south over the Wall, but northmen climbing north over it? Whatever for?

Maybe the horn can control the ww's the same way Euron's hell horn controls dragons (supposedly)? I wonder if here, too, there is a price to pay for sounding the horn.

Then again, if this is also the horn that wakes the Sleepers (btw I like that they are capitalized now- makes them seem more important doesn't it? :) ) then maybe its purpose is not to control or kill the ww's at all, but to wake those who can. I agree, I find it unlikely that it physically brings down the Wall. The Wall seems like a pretty permanent structure that took a LOT of work to build, and I can't really think of any reason why such a horn would have been created. There are tunnels through it after all, plus men can get around it by ship, so I see no apparent reason to have an "emergency failsafe" to bring the whole thing crashing down.

It does seem strange, regardless of the horn's exact functions, that it was "lost" somewhere north of the Wall for apparently a long time. Or buried with Joramun, or whoever else. I would think that such an important artifact would be kept in a very safe place, not tossed in a tomb and forgotten about...

I wonder where Benjen (or Coldhands?) found it...

Let's hope. B/c if the Aerys line were true, I can see us arguing for the rest of eternity about whether or not this counts as canon and we now know the ID of the second dragon rider... which is an argument I could really do without, given that the books have been very unclear on this and there will be no way to settle it until WoW comes out. :frown5:

Indeed. This was my first thought as well (the ww's being the Sleepers), but so far I haven't been able to come up with a logical explanation for why the NW would want to wake the ww's.

I would like to think this supports an uber-heretical theory I sometimes toy with, that the ww's were originally a weapon used by the NW/ancient Starks to protect the realms of men, rather than being the enemy the realms are protected against. But like the dragons, the ww's need to be controlled, otherwise they wreak havoc. And maybe this is what happened in the original long night. There was a threat of some sort, and the ww's were created in order to fight it. But, magic is a sword without a hilt, and while they did defeat the enemy they also killed most of the human population of Westeros. Ooops. Big screw-up. Better change the history books and forget all about it. We don't know where they came from... they were just a random evil that appeared. Brave men killed them. They are not even real, just a legend really...

The original enemy is not mentioned anywhere b/c to acknowledge there was an enemy that was defeated by the ww's would lead people to ask questions.

Qyburn is an interesting parallel to this. He is showing us that you can use magic and necromancy to create unstoppable warriors that don't need food or sleep. I keep waiting for him (and the rest of KL) to realize this awesome new sword has no hilt.

I like this. Who are you suggesting the Black Gate is/was guarded against?

The only thing I don't like about this is that it makes the horn in the present day unimportant. What's the point of Ghost finding it and Sam carrying it around, if we're just going to learn that 100 years ago, someone blew it and that's why the ww's are back? Too simple, IMO. But of course entirely possible.

I do like the idea that the Starks were responsible for creating the White Walkers in the first place. They tried dabbling in ice magic and created a monster that they ultimately couldn't control. They appealed to the Singers for help and somehow put the WW to sleep, but apparently someone kept the horn to wake them up again, should they want to use them again. A completely foolish idea if they couldn't control them in the first place.

[Frey family reunion]

I would agree with you that the Liddle was especially well informed of the NW rangings north of the Wall. You would expect him to know the gossip south of the Wall with the Ironborn jn the wolfwoods and Ramsay's searching for Bran and Rickon. That is news that you would expect the northmen to know about, but how could he know what went on north of the Wall unless he were there? And if he was there, what was he doing there? Wildlings are known to climb south over the Wall, but northmen climbing north over it? Whatever for?

.

This unnamed Liddle did seem to know a great deal didn't he? The idea of meeting an unnamed stranger during the hero's journey seems to be repeated when Theon crosses paths with his Hooded Man in Winterfell, possibly a connection there?

[Frey family reunion]

I do like the idea that the Starks were responsible for creating the White Walkers in the first place. They tried dabbling in ice magic and created a monster that they ultimately couldn't control. They appealed to the Singers for help and somehow put the WW to sleep, but apparently someone kept the horn to wake them up again, should they want to use them again. A completely foolish idea if they couldn't control them in the first place.

Perhaps the Starks of old may have also been responsible for the Long Night as well? Maybe their motto Winter is Coming is not a warning but a threat.

[Melifeather]

Perhaps the Starks of old may have also been responsible for the Long Night as well? Maybe their motto Winter is Coming is not a warning but a threat.

Exactly so. The Starks used winter as a weapon.

[addicted to snow]

I do like the idea that the Starks were responsible for creating the White Walkers in the first place. They tried dabbling in ice magic and created a monster that they ultimately couldn't control. They appealed to the Singers for help and somehow put the WW to sleep, but apparently someone kept the horn to wake them up again, should they want to use them again. A completely foolish idea if they couldn't control them in the first place.

Or better yet, the Starks ARE the White Walkers…

[Frey family reunion]

Exactly so. The Starks used winter as a weapon.

There was a theory out there that the current winter storm at the end of ADWD is centered around Winterfell. Where we have been having some mysterious killings (perhaps sacrifices?) and some interesting activities from Mance and his spearwives.

[TheButcherCrow]

Let's hope. B/c if the Aerys line were true, I can see us arguing for the rest of eternity about whether or not this counts as canon and we now know the ID of the second dragon rider... which is an argument I could really do without, given that the books have been very unclear on this and there will be no way to settle it until WoW comes out. :frown5:

Oh come on, those threads would be hilarious :D We're pretty polite in Heresy and even we got a bit heated over episode 4 !! The threads on the general forum would be amazing. Total popcorn material.

[wolfmaid7]

"guarding" is perhaps not quite the right word; what we've discussed in the past is one of these timeline problems.

The Black Gate is as old as the Wall. The Night Fort is twice as old as Castle Black. This means that if we go with the traditional dating, Castle Black is no more than 4,000 years old, perhaps a bit less depending exactly when the wall was built, ie; during or after the Long Night and if after, how long after.

Now there's nothing to indicate that Castle Black is newer than any of the other castles, although its theoretically possible. Nevertheless the express linkage between the Nightfort and Castle Black does at the very least suggest that there was a long gap between the raising of the Wall and the raising of the castles - at about the time the Andals arrived.

During that time the Nightfort was the only castle on the Wall and not necessarily in its present form, but perhaps only in the form of that circular building over the entrance to the Black Gate.

That being so, the original Watch, before the overthrow of the Nights King may have been no more than 13 heroes acting as gatekeepers.

This was pricesly my thought BC you put that perfectly. The original NW was just 13 men guarding a gate and the only structure was the spiral staircase.A version of Lord of the Crossing perhaps.

This unnamed Liddle did seem to know a great deal didn't he? The idea of meeting an unnamed stranger during the hero's journey seems to be repeated when Theon crosses paths with his Hooded Man in Winterfell, possibly a connection there?

This brings up a thought of Mark Twain's unfinished work "The Mysterious Stranger"

[Frey family reunion]

This was pricesly my thought BC you put that perfectly. The original NW was just 13 men guarding a gate and the only structure was the spiral staircase.A version of Lord of the Crossing perhaps.

This brings up a thought of Mark Twain's unfinished work "The Mysterious Stranger"

Speaking of Lord of the Crossing, is it just me or does it seem that House Frey may have had a historical role in protecting the realm to its south from the denizens of the Neck? If you reread Meera's tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, it certainly seems like there may be a history between the two families. Also the Frey boys sure didn't have anything good to say about the Reeds did they?

[TheButcherCrow]

That being so, the original Watch, before the overthrow of the Nights King may have been no more than 13 heroes acting as gatekeepers.

This was pricesly my thought BC you put that perfectly. The original NW was just 13 men guarding a gate and the only structure was the spiral staircase.A version of Lord of the Crossing perhaps.

This brings up a thought of Mark Twain's unfinished work "The Mysterious Stranger"

That would mean the Wall pre-dates the Watch, yes ? That would mean they couldn't have fought in the war for the dawn (assuming that actually did come prior to the raising of the wall, or in fact that it actually happened at all). I must admit, I always felt the NW has to pre-date the Wall in some form. They must have been formed in the Long Night, as literally a "night's watch", folks who would keep fires burning through the night (red priest alert, red priest alert) in villages, towns etc.

[Frey family reunion]

That would mean the Wall pre-dates the Watch, yes ? That would mean they couldn't have fought in the war for the dawn (assuming that actually did come prior to the raising of the wall, or in fact that it actually happened at all). I must admit, I always felt the NW has to pre-date the Wall in some form. They must have been formed in the Long Night, as literally a "night's watch", folks who would keep fires burning through the night (red priest alert, red priest alert) in villages, towns etc.

Unless the threat of the Long Night emanated from Winterfell or more specifically under Winterfell and not from beyond the Wall.

[Black Crow]

That would mean the Wall pre-dates the Watch, yes ? That would mean they couldn't have fought in the war for the dawn (assuming that actually did come prior to the raising of the wall, or in fact that it actually happened at all). I must admit, I always felt the NW has to pre-date the Wall in some form. They must have been formed in the Long Night, as literally a "night's watch", folks who would keep fires burning through the night (red priest alert, red priest alert) in villages, towns etc.

The present Watch, yes. The heresy is that in the beginning there was the Wall, the Black Gate and its gatekeepers. At some point the Nights King was overthrown in the battle for the Dawn, the Watch/gatekeepers eith fled or ended up decorting spikes, and the "new" watch set about building the castles and defending the Wall

[Uldra I]

...WAIT A MINUTE.... wow, what a wonderfully out-of-the-box idea!!! What if the sleepers that the NW is supposed to wake are the ww's? Or the Ancient Others, or the CotF, or the dead Starks in the crypts, I don't care, anyone but regular old humans is a totally new way of looking at "the horn that wakes the sleepers". What if the sleepers, whoever they are, are the real protectors of the realm, and the NW's job is only to look out for (insert whatever you think is the biggest threat, I know opinions differ ;) ) and then sound the horn (Joramun's horn??) to wake the sleepers = actual defenders. ...

This is an idea makes sense because Joruman went with a Stark of WF to help get rid of the NK & WWs in the Nightfort. Why would he keep a horn to summon the WWs? I just makes more sense to me that it would have been for summoning (awakening) help.

...

I do like the idea that the Starks were responsible for creating the White Walkers in the first place. They tried dabbling in ice magic and created a monster that they ultimately couldn't control. They appealed to the Singers for help and somehow put the WW to sleep, but apparently someone kept the horn to wake them up again, should they want to use them again. A completely foolish idea if they couldn't control them in the first place.

One thing that strikes me is GRRMs mirroring of concepts from the side of Ice to the side of Fire and vice versa. What if the Horn of Winter is not the same as the Horn of Joruman as is widely assumed. The text uses the two labels interchangeably just like it does AAR/TPtwP, or WWs/Others when the two terms may not be the same things at all. Perhaps just as Dragonbinder calls the dragons, maybe the Horn of Winter calls WWs, and Joruman's Horn was to wake the sleepers (aid of somekind) from the Wall?

eta: could the sleepers be the Sentinels buried in the ice vaults in the wall? Maybe the horn Mance found was the HoW and the one Sam has is the HoJ?

[Melifeather]

This is an idea makes sense because Joruman went with a Stark of WF to help get rid of the NK & WWs in the Nightfort. Why would he keep a horn to summon the WWs? I just makes more sense to me that it would have been for summoning (awakening) help.

One thing that strikes me is GRRMs mirroring of concepts from the side of Ice to the side of Fire and vice versa. What if the Horn of Winter is not the same as the Horn of Joruman as is widely assumed. The text uses the two labels interchangeably just like it does AAR/TPtwP, or WWs/Others when the two terms may not be the same things at all. Perhaps just as Dragonbinder calls the dragons, maybe the Horn of Winter calls WWs, and Joruman's Horn was to wake the sleepers (aid of somekind) from the Wall?

eta: could the sleepers be the Sentinels buried in the ice vaults in the wall? Maybe the horn Mance found was the HoW and the one Sam has is the HoJ?

Or...the horn binds the White Walkers to the horn blower's master.

[Uldra I]

Or...the horn binds the White Walkers to the horn blower's master.

I like it :D