mr.mop Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Like another said before me a few pages back, you should keep in mind that these books were meant to be a trilogy, so Aegon would have been revealed much earlier in this series if GRRM hadn't expanded it to a seven-book trilogy. Sure, even then, you're talking about the main guy in a trilogy not being introduced until well into the second book. Still doesn't work. It'd be like if Lando Calirissian ended up being the most important guy in Star Wars. It'd be stupid and bad writing, not clever genre subversion. Fact is, the "story" starts well before we are introduced to the characters in the first book, be it Rheagar and Lyanna and whatever happened there, or Littlefinger and Lysa and the killing of Jon Arryn and manipulation of Cat, or whatever. Martin chose to start telling us the story at a certain point, and he chose which points of view to reveal to us, and which to hide. If he really spent all those pages developing Dany in exile, while hiding Aegon in exile, when in fact he easily could've done the reverse (developed Aegon, hid Dany or only hinted at her existence thanks to Varys in the Small Council), and it turns out Aegon is a more important player in the grand scheme of things than Dany, that's just bad writing. Period. Doesn't matter if it was meant to be 3 books or 30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Just to chime in here, I definitely agree with you on this issue. I know just about everyone has that special storyline they love. I do love the complexity of Tyrion's character. I believe adding in the Tysha material, and especially at such a late hour, would have overcomplicated it. I think they are setting Shae up to fulfill this role in Tyrion's story. As for where whores go, that was an internal dialogue for the most part, and it makes sense in a way that we wouldn't get that in the show either....and if I never have to hear or read 'where do whores go?' again...gah, I just did it!....I will be all the more grateful. That was my lowest Tyrion period. Murders Shae in cold blood and then his father, and spends his next few months in SELF-pity?!?! Ugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I don't think he was lying. Taking the black would have served Tywin's purpose of getting rid of Tyrion, he wouldn't have to be a kinslayer then. In the books, Tywin readily offered Tyrion the chance to take the black without an exchange for Jaime quitting the KG.Was that in the books? Lol, and here was me thinking it was a stroke of perceptive genius to think of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janicia Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 OvYes I felt the same way, the scene was ruined for me when he said Shae instead of Tysha. I don't get why they even bothered to bring her up in season 1 then. I guess this means she doesn't play a very important part in the books, or Tyrion never finds her.Isn't Tysha, or at least people who know her, probably living somewhere around Casterly Rock? Isn't Tyrion "looking" on the wrong continent? Hopefully, Tysha is happily married and has put the Tyrion trauma behind her. If Tyrion eventually finds a broken illiterate woman whose life he and Tywin ruined, whose looks are gone, is he really going to settle down with her as man and wife? I just don't see a happy ending for Tyrion and Tysha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janicia Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Sure, even then, you're talking about the main guy in a trilogy not being introduced until well into the second book. Still doesn't work. It'd be like if Lando Calirissian ended up being the most important guy in Star Wars. It'd be stupid and bad writing, not clever genre subversion. Fact is, the "story" starts well before we are introduced to the characters in the first book, be it Rheagar and Lyanna and whatever happened there, or Littlefinger and Lysa and the killing of Jon Arryn and manipulation of Cat, or whatever. Martin chose to start telling us the story at a certain point, and he chose which points of view to reveal to us, and which to hide. If he really spent all those pages developing Dany in exile, while hiding Aegon in exile, when in fact he easily could've done the reverse (developed Aegon, hid Dany or only hinted at her existence thanks to Varys in the Small Council), and it turns out Aegon is a more important player in the grand scheme of things than Dany, that's just bad writing. Period. Doesn't matter if it was meant to be 3 books or 30. I don't want Aegon to end up on the throne because I don't think it would be a satisfying ending. Maybe it would be ok if Sansa married him. I don't know him or trust him and he hasn't earned it, whatever that means. And yeah, something better come out of Dany's story. Killing Ned had tons of payoff. There were echoes of that reverberating across Westeros, and pushed each of his children forward on their paths. The Red Wedding and Jon's potential death are more frustrating because we spend all this time with a young leader with all these plans and then poof he's dead I guess that wasn't going anywhere. Red wedding seems to have set off the great northern conspiracy, which should be a huge payoff. But Dany and Jon have been relatively isolated from the rest of the story and we've been with them so long at this point. They each had better do something big before they die, or pass on a legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadwood Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I think there's a difference between killing someone and leaving them to suffer. It's possible to recognise that he deserves to die for his previous crimes without truly hating him, but not giving him a gift of mercy is on a whole different level. What I mean is that she was in a very dark place at the beginning of the season, but I though that she has been developing ways to cope with it and also that her relationship with the Hound has progressed a lot since then. If this scene happened at the beginning of the season that would be one thing, but I just felt that at this point their relationship has passed the stage where it was still plausible from her character's POV. Well she could kill him both for being a 'friend killer' and for the gift, both have the same end but different emotions. What I think is though that she now has no chinks in the armour. Previously she was umming and arring and her feelings for the Hound might have revealed her weakness, but not she has embraced her darkside and even though she may still have confused feelings for the Hound deep down, she can lock them out and raise defence shields. This is the point now where nothing can touch her.....if Lady Stoneheart ever does show up...that meeting would be very very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Story Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I think that Aryas has accepted being with the Hound for the sake of safeness. She actually learned a lot from him. The part where she erased his name from the list was a sign that she accepted him as someone she has to stick to. But she never actually forgave him and that's why she denied him the gift of mercy. Arya is no forgiving person, she has proved that and will go on with revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady of Dragonstone Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Sure, even then, you're talking about the main guy in a trilogy not being introduced until well into the second book. Still doesn't work. It'd be like if Lando Calirissian ended up being the most important guy in Star Wars. It'd be stupid and bad writing, not clever genre subversion. Fact is, the "story" starts well before we are introduced to the characters in the first book, be it Rheagar and Lyanna and whatever happened there, or Littlefinger and Lysa and the killing of Jon Arryn and manipulation of Cat, or whatever. Martin chose to start telling us the story at a certain point, and he chose which points of view to reveal to us, and which to hide. If he really spent all those pages developing Dany in exile, while hiding Aegon in exile, when in fact he easily could've done the reverse (developed Aegon, hid Dany or only hinted at her existence thanks to Varys in the Small Council), and it turns out Aegon is a more important player in the grand scheme of things than Dany, that's just bad writing. Period. Doesn't matter if it was meant to be 3 books or 30. Fact is, we don't even know what's going to happen yet with Daenerys and Aegon - or anything else for that matter. If you had a valid argument I would just move on, but you're literally pre-judging material you haven't even read yet. These same generalities could be said for any other material at this point, like Jon's "death," his parentage, Darkstar's identity, the Gravedigger, and many other things we've discussed on here so far. We do not know if they are important because we're not there yet. If you disagree with this series then I would consider moving onto something else. From a literary standpoint, IMO we haven't even reached the climax of the series, so any material introduced before the climax adds to the build up of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmholt Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I apologize if it's been mentioned, but I searched and didn't see anything. Do we know what Mance and Jon are drinking? I don't recall any North of the Wall beverages.Guessing Akvavit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmholt Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I don't think he was lying. Taking the black would have served Tywin's purpose of getting rid of Tyrion, he wouldn't have to be a kinslayer then. In the books, Tywin readily offered Tyrion the chance to take the black without an exchange for Jaime quitting the KG. Oh I think he was totally lying. That video from a watch party where everyone busted out laughing when he started BS-ing. He was trying to save his own life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tall Tyrion Lannister! Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Isn't Tysha, or at least people who know her, probably living somewhere around Casterly Rock? Isn't Tyrion "looking" on the wrong continent? Hopefully, Tysha is happily married and has put the Tyrion trauma behind her. If Tyrion eventually finds a broken illiterate woman whose life he and Tywin ruined, whose looks are gone, is he really going to settle down with her as man and wife? I just don't see a happy ending for Tyrion and Tysha. probably not. theory going is that the she's the whore who makes people "marry her" before she fucks them. can't remember her name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maid So Fair Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I actually don't think we're disagreeing on the nature of the end of their relationship, book or show. The most crucial moment in the books for me was when Arya took him off her list. She takes him off her list...and then he wants her to kill him. Show-wise, that moment came in the form of his last act of protecting her. And not only does she willingly step behind him, but she sticks around, tries to offer him water (a small comfort, but a comfort nonetheless). My point with the Vulture interview was that in one interview she seems to have a slightly vengeful tone, while in the quote I put up, she seems to recognize that though he wants her to, she can't really bring herself to, not to spite him, but because as much as he is suffering, he is so broken and as much as she has claimed in the past to want to see him dead, she really can't bring herself to be the one to deliver that final blow. Not because she doesn't care; rather, because she does. ETA: I think Maisie did an extraordinary job conveying a ton of conflicting emotions in that scene, and I think it's unfortunate that some people might take away a black and white "she did it to spite him because she's stone cold now" vibe. I saw it totally differently and it seems like Maisie did too. I actually quite like your explanation and I wish I got the same impression from that scene. It's a shame because Maisie is usually a sensational and spot-on Arya. Maybe it would have helped if she said a bit more, silent scene didn't work for me too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.mop Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Fact is, we don't even know what's going to happen yet with Daenerys and Aegon - or anything else for that matter. If you had a valid argument I would just move on, but you're literally pre-judging material you haven't even read yet. These same generalities could be said for any other material at this point, like Jon's "death," his parentage, Darkstar's identity, the Gravedigger, and many other things we've discussed on here so far. We do not know if they are important because we're not there yet. If you disagree with this series then I would consider moving onto something else. From a literary standpoint, IMO we haven't even reached the climax of the series, so any material introduced before the climax adds to the build up of the story. I'm not prejudging anything. I don't really understand the point you're making here. No, we don't know how certain things will and won't figure in the plot. OK? Where do I disagree with that notion? I'm making a simple point: IF Aegon turns out to be the most important person in the story, THEN it would have been bad writing to hid him from us for the first 3 books for no apparent good reason. Since Martin is a good writer, I am assuming then that Aegon will NOT be the most important person in the story. That doesn't mean he won't have some role to play, and it might very well be important, but it's not HIS story the same way its the story of Dany and the Stark and Lannister siblings. What does it even mean to disagree with the series? That sounds like something beyond merely not enjoying it. Where do you get that impression from my posts? I love the series, I enjoy it, I "agree" with it (whatever that means), and there's very little Martin could do to change that at this point. Making Aegon the hero of the story would, of course, be one of those things, and if that happens I might very well put the books down. But i'm not worried about that in the least bit because, as I said, it would be terrible writing. Killing off seemingly important characters in the name of moving the plot forward in interesting and unanticipated ways is NOT the same as simply hiding the most important character from the reader for the first half of the story. Martin does a lot of unconventional things I like. Making Aegon the guy would not be one of them. As I've said repeatedly, it would be bad writing. There's no really defending it on this point. Luckily, since none of his other twists have been bad writing, I'm not worried about it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonBranRickon Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I'm not prejudging anything. I don't really understand the point you're making here. No, we don't know how certain things will and won't figure in the plot. OK? Where do I disagree with that notion? I'm making a simple point: IF Aegon turns out to be the most important person in the story, THEN it would have been bad writing to hid him from us for the first 3 books for no apparent good reason. Since Martin is a good writer, I am assuming then that Aegon will NOT be the most important person in the story. That doesn't mean he won't have some role to play, and it might very well be important, but it's not HIS story the same way its the story of Dany and the Stark and Lannister siblings. What does it even mean to disagree with the series? That sounds like something beyond merely not enjoying it. Where do you get that impression from my posts? I love the series, I enjoy it, I "agree" with it (whatever that means), and there's very little Martin could do to change that at this point. Making Aegon the hero of the story would, of course, be one of those things, and if that happens I might very well put the books down. But i'm not worried about that in the least bit because, as I said, it would be terrible writing. Killing off seemingly important characters in the name of moving the plot forward in interesting and unanticipated ways is NOT the same as simply hiding the most important character from the reader for the first half of the story. Martin does a lot of unconventional things I like. Making Aegon the guy would not be one of them. As I've said repeatedly, it would be bad writing. There's no really defending it on this point. Luckily, since none of his other twists have been bad writing, I'm not worried about it at all. I can agree but in a slightly less dire way. GRRM has spent a tremendous amount of time developing characters that we love, hate and have a vested interest in. It woudn't be bad writing, it would be a very poor strategy to insert a major protaganist in the second to last book and not expect a huge fan let down. I believe GRRM is much smarter than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.mop Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 ^^Fair enough ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerJeremiahLouistark Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 There are a lot of new characters what's 1 more. Doran, Sand Snakes, Arianne, Darkstar, Aero, the other young ugly Martell whose name escapes me, Aerys Oakhart, Wyman Manderly, this story is is about to turn into almost a completely different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janicia Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 probably not. theory going is that the she's the whore who makes people "marry her" before she fucks them. can't remember her name. The Sailor's Wife could well be associated with Gerion, not Tyrion. I don't think it makes much sense that the sweet crofter's daughter from somewhere around Casterly Rock uses her gang-rape payout to become a notable prostitute in Bravos. But even if she is Tysha, and Tyrion does find her, do you see Tyrion deciding to leave the Game of Thrones to marry a Bravosi prostitute he once loved, particularly now that he's presumably joining Dany's entourage? Do you see Tysha wanting Tyrion back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Dondarrion Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 probably not. theory going is that the she's the whore who makes people "marry her" before she fucks them. can't remember her name. is that one of the courtesans in braavos you're talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here Shaggydog Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Tyrion will find where whores go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruin Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 D&D are making Dorne SuperSexyLand next season, and I'm OK with it. Proceed D&D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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