Is Arya on her way to becoming a female Sandor?

[ARYa_Nym]

<snip>

I don't think her being good or not being good is because of the FM.

We already had from earlier the Ghost of High Heart calling her dark heart and saying she smells of death. Plus, Jon's line that she will be sewing or killing through winter. Winter has only just started.

She's with the FM but she's killed only once for them. They have nothing to do with her contemplating killing Gendry and Hot Pie, a woman for simply stealing from her, and only deciding not to kill them because she couldn't get away with it not because of moral reasons. In addition to putting someone on her list for simply stealing, killing someone for being in her way, the brutal manner in which she killed the Tickler, murdering Daren, stealing his boots, and

Seducing and murdering Raff. Identifying with Tyrion and thinking that being a monster is an apt description for herself.

. As well as all the collateral damage in the weasel soup. Gendry was pissed at her for example because someone he liked was killed. etc.

So I don't see it as a matter of leaving the FM and she'll be good now. There's a reason why Jaqen thought she would be a good recruit. She provided evidence for him.

ETA: So basically I'm saying so far most of the things that make her grey aren't connected to the FM. With Sandor on the other hand it's because of the orders he followed or standing by while orders were given by the Lannisters.

[boojam]

Odd thread.

For those who have not read the books or 'MERCY' all indications are that Arya is on her way , or maybe has already arrived, at being 100 times more dangerous than Sandor... but in a completely different more subtle way.

[Witch]

Odd thread.

For those who have not read the books or 'MERCY' all indications are that Arya is on her way , or maybe has already arrived, at being 100 times more dangerous than Sandor... but in a completely different more subtle way.

I was going to post something like this. That chapter messed me up.

[Fire Eater]

I think Arya is more along the path of Varys, learning skills to work in the shadows to seek her revenge and bring down the house that caused her family's misfortune.

[Colby BlackJack]

It is possible that Arya may walk away from the killing in the end. GRRM's characters DO grow and change. Some experience corrupting moments, and some experience redemptive ones. So what if the final kill is, say, Cersi and Arya just walks away?

[ARYa_Nym]

It is possible that Arya may walk away from the killing in the end. GRRM's characters DO grow and change. Some experience corrupting moments, and some experience redemptive ones. So what if the final kill is, say, Cersi and Arya just walks away?

I think her change is that she gets darker and is very different from the little girl she started out as. She is grey though so that doesn't mean she can't do anything good ever.

[The Sleeper]

If Arya was also not willing to kill on orders I would think she might have done due diligence before assassinating the insurance agent. Not that we're given any reason to believe Arya decided he deserved to die and isn't just following orders. And that's not to mention she had no moral issues with killing his guards, it was the Kindly Man who put a stop to that plan.

Actually, we are. She did not start planning to kill him until after the Kindly Old Man clearly implied that he went back on one of his contracts and left a widow and orphans destitute. And there is also the fact that she committed to it in the first place in exchange for a face. So, both an exchange and an independent reason for him deserving to die. Of course Arya did not corroborate any of that nor she give his guard any more consideration than she would an inanimate obstacle she needed to overcome.

[chrisdaw]

Actually, we are. She did not start planning to kill him until after the Kindly Old Man clearly implied that he went back on one of his contracts and left a widow and orphans destitute.

It is not indicated at any point that it was a factor in her decision making.

[The Sleeper]

It is not indicated at any point that it was a factor in her decision making.

Of course it is. Her thoughts shift completely from who he is, why he is a bad man etc to how to kill him and the point where this shift occurs when the KOM tells him about his business practices. Arya was trying to rationalize killing him, but only proceeded to the specifics of going through with it after she was provided with a reason.

The first point of the decision was being challenged by the FM with the sores that she didn't have what it takes and the promise of a new face and the second was when the KOM implied that the insurance salesman had done something dishonest and harmful.

[Shireen Shireen]

When it comes down to it deserter or just obnoxious asshole the reason she did it was because she wanted to. We're talking about someone who is suffering from one of the most severe cases of PTSD ever and as a result has become fixated with violence and murder. Someone who has already killed for no reason other than revenge who has a hit list with names still to check off and is in fact training to become a master assassin why is the idea that that person might enjoy killing so tough for some people.

Disagree. When the Kindly Man asks who killed him she says Arya Stark. It's the job of house Stark to punish deserters from the NW.

[Batbob45]

If she is then she can have Shitmouth as her sidekick

[boojam]

I think her change is that she gets darker and is very different from the little girl she started out as. She is grey though so that doesn't mean she can't do anything good ever.

Even ADwD she has changed.

That WoW chapter was a stunner, she REALLY had changed, one wonders if there was a preceding Arya chapter in WoW?

(As I have noted she is still 'dream' warging into Nymeria and still has Needle either hidden or on her. By absolute FM rules she can't become a FP... and that is very intriguing since that chapter makes seem like she's already there.)

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

Even ADwD she has changed.

That WoW chapter was a stunner, she REALLY had changed, one wonders if there was a preceding Arya chapter in WoW?

(As I have noted she is still 'dream' warging into Nymeria and still has Needle either hidden or on her. By absolute FM rules she can't become a FP... and that is very intriguing since that chapter makes seem like she's already there.)

I don't think there is. Arya was sent to Izembarro at the end of ADWD, I think it would be a bit repetitive if she had a chapter preceding "Mercy". I'm assuming her chapters might start a bit later in TWOW.

[The Sleeper]

Even ADwD she has changed.

That WoW chapter was a stunner, she REALLY had changed, one wonders if there was a preceding Arya chapter in WoW?

(As I have noted she is still 'dream' warging into Nymeria and still has Needle either hidden or on her. By absolute FM rules she can't become a FP... and that is very intriguing since that chapter makes seem like she's already there.)

Not really. It was more of a recap of what she had done in Braavos so far and before.

Immersing herself in a false identity? check

Being ruthless and cunning? check

Her list taking precedence over everything?check, it was the reason she stayed with the FM in the first place.

What was different was a larger perspective. She showed awareness of how other people may see her, of what is going on beyond her immediate surroundings and the consequences of certain courses of action down the line. What is otherwise known as growing up.

[Reek Havoc]

Even ADwD she has changed.

That WoW chapter was a stunner, she REALLY had changed, one wonders if there was a preceding Arya chapter in WoW?

(As I have noted she is still 'dream' warging into Nymeria and still has Needle either hidden or on her. By absolute FM rules she can't become a FP... and that is very intriguing since that chapter makes seem like she's already there.)

I don't think so. In fact, I believe I read somewhere that "Mercy" was originally supposed to be the final Arya chapter in ADwD. Not sure if it was cut due to page numbers, or if they just decided that it made a better beginning chapter than end chapter.

[FourmyleOfCeres]

Even though she used to curse the hound for all his immoral actions it seems she is becoming exactly like him. Is this an interesting parralell.

What does this even mean? She's becoming nothing like him. Arya would never have killed Mycah or an equivalent character. She does not kill innocents or "just follow orders". The one death where you could even argue she does that, let's be honest - the guy was probably a bad guy, and she's smart enough and has seen enough of the world to know he's probably a bad guy. Certainly he was an extreme longshot to be an innocent.

Arya and the Hound are both proficient and even enthusiastic killers, but the reasons behind it and the nature of their killings are very, very different. At least so far. Arya kills righteously, and usually in revenge, as a means of dispensing justice. The Hound was strictly a professional killer.

[FourmyleOfCeres]

I also find people saying how much Arya has 'changed' to be odd, considering her killing of Raff matches her killing of The Tickler literally exactly.

I don't see Arya's progression as the darkening people seem to take it as. She had been vicious and angry - albeit righteously, not randomly - since literally the first book. Reread GoT more carefully, there are telltale signs throughout of her nature. After Ned is injured and wakes up, Veyon Poole (I think it was him anyway) tells Ned that Arya hasn't said anything since his injury and is taking it very badly. "I've never seen such anger in a little girl before," he says. She is naturally like that when it comes to righteousness, that's her natural mode when faced with injustice and cruelty.

Considering she's faced nothing BUT injustice and cruelty since King Robert's death, it's little wonder she's 'become' what she's become. I see her character arc as not so much a darkening as a gaining self-control. That's the difference between before and now. She kills Raff the same exact way, for the same exact reasons, with the same exact brutality and mercilessness she killed The Tickler. But now instead of a wild rage, there's calm control.

I think Arya is one of the most poorly-understood characters by the fanbase. We never meet a weak, meek, peaceful, helpless, benign little girl. She isn't that in GoT, and she certainly isn't that afterwards. From the beginning she is preternaturally self-reliant (a little girl who evaded capture and survived for days in the wilderness on her own after running away after the Joffrey incident; then escaped and survived even longer on her own in King's Landing), and, in matters of injustice and harm to "her people", gets extremely angry and dangerous and inflexible. She's been this character since the very beginning of the series, when she was a very little girl - all we've seen is her become increasingly self-controlled and capable. She's the same weapon she always was, with the same purpose she's always had, just honed. And she's been more or less consciously guiding herself the whole time precisely in order to hone the weapon she is and had (since the very beginning of the series) always been.

[The Sleeper]

I also find people saying how much Arya has 'changed' to be odd, considering her killing of Raff matches her killing of The Tickler literally exactly.

I don't see Arya's progression as the darkening people seem to take it as. She had been vicious and angry - albeit righteously, not randomly - since literally the first book. Reread GoT more carefully, there are telltale signs throughout of her nature. After Ned is injured and wakes up, Veyon Poole (I think it was him anyway) tells Ned that Arya hasn't said anything since his injury and is taking it very badly. "I've never seen such anger in a little girl before," he says. She is naturally like that when it comes to righteousness, that's her natural mode when faced with injustice and cruelty.

Considering she's faced nothing BUT injustice and cruelty since King Robert's death, it's little wonder she's 'become' what she's become. I see her character arc as not so much a darkening as a gaining self-control. That's the difference between before and now. She kills Raff the same exact way, for the same exact reasons, with the same exact brutality and mercilessness she killed The Tickler. But now instead of a wild rage, there's calm control.

I think Arya is one of the most poorly-understood characters by the fanbase. We never meet a weak, meek, peaceful, helpless, benign little girl. She isn't that in GoT, and she certainly isn't that afterwards. From the beginning she is preternaturally self-reliant (a little girl who evaded capture and survived for days in the wilderness on her own after running away after the Joffrey incident; then escaped and survived even longer on her own in King's Landing), and, in matters of injustice and harm to "her people", gets extremely angry and dangerous and inflexible. She's been this character since the very beginning of the series, when she was a very little girl - all we've seen is her become increasingly self-controlled and capable. She's the same weapon she always was, with the same purpose she's always had, just honed. And she's been more or less consciously guiding herself the whole time precisely in order to hone the weapon she is and had (since the very beginning of the series) always been.

Well, yes and no.

The Tickler's and Raff's murders took place under very different circumstances. At the crossroads inn, Arya had no intention of fighting. She was terrified and wanted to get out as soon as possible, but stuck it out. Her outbreak when she killed him was a release of all the terror that particular individual had put her through.

In many ways Raff's murder was quite opposite. She was quite safe and in fact pursuing this could and possibly will put her in trouble with the FM and may or may have not meant the end of that particular persona. She was also quite calm and proceeded to the deed as a task to be done.

They could be though seen as part of the same sequence, that is the first kill that comes due to circumstances evolves into a deliberate one with hints of a ritual.

Other than that. Arya has always been motivated by the same things, but has evolved to pursue them on her own with relentless efficiency.

[Batbob45]

Does that mean that Arya will guard Shireen

[FourmyleOfCeres]

Arya's the exact same as she's always been, only she's increased her capabilities in order to achieve what she's always wanted to achieve. That's really her arc. Her helplessness and vulnerability from the time she left Winterfell to her escape from Harrenhal put the fear of God in her and made her want to become lethal - but not just because she'd felt vulnerable (tho she did feel extremely vulnerable) but because she'd felt herself unable to stop evil or fight evil, which she saw all around her going unpunished. She didn't choose the Hound but the time together served her needs perfectly, and then obviously she makes a conscious choice to learn Jaqen's art, which she'd been enamored with since she first learned about it, since it served her two needs (protection from vulnerability, and ability to bring justice) perfectly.

I see her as a very in-control character and a character who hasn't changed fundamentally or been corrupted. She's also one character who learns what she wants and wants to be almost immediately, and never deviates. She only had an inkling of it prior to things falling apart in KL, but from the time of Ned's injury on I think she knows more or less precisely what she needs to become, and her time on the road and at HH only reinforces it. Then through good fortune and her own decision, she makes herself into what she wanted to be. Hers is actually a very impressive, positive story. She can't help that she happens to be in a vicious, unjust world, but she's going to at least do all she can to correct such injustices as she can on her own. It would be very good for the realm if such a person were to survive and live a long life, so I hope she does. She can be the boogeyman for evildoers, only, the boogeyman that really does exist.