Discussing Season 4

[PatrickStormborn]

I don't see that as a problem, myself. Villains rarely see themselves as such, and are even more rarely all evil in the first place. Making a villain somewhat understandable or sympathetic isn't a negative.

Did you even read what I wrote? I said it was great that GRRM made her sympathetic - why would I criticise D&D for doing the same??

But yes, it IS a problem if the writers don't recognise who is and who isn't a villain. Tywin is an evil villain, not "lawful neutral". Cersei isn't quite on his level, but by the end of ADwD she's certainly getting there.

Honestly though, the villain they've most ruined is Varys. On the show, he just seems like a friendly guy with a dark side... In the books he's probably the most sinister character in King's Landing, what with having children mutilated and forced to serve him...

[sj4iy]

Did you even read what I wrote? I said it was great that GRRM made her sympathetic - why would I criticise D&D for doing the same??

But yes, it IS a problem if the writers don't recognise who is and who isn't a villain. Tywin is an evil villain, not "lawful neutral". Cersei isn't quite on his level, but by the end of ADwD she's certainly getting there.

Honestly though, the villain they've most ruined is Varys. On the show, he just seems like a friendly guy with a dark side... In the books he's probably the most sinister character in King's Landing, what with having children mutilated and forced to serve him...

If you don't think the showrunners have made her a villain in the show, then I don't see how you have been watching it at all. She may not be the same evil bitch from the books, but she just spent this entire season bent of the death and destruction of her little brother. She sucked up to those she thought could help her in that task, but that only made her actions more reprehensible.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

I don't see that as a problem, myself. Villains rarely see themselves as such, and are even more rarely all evil in the first place. Making a villain somewhat understandable or sympathetic isn't a negative.

I think he said they (D&D) don't see Tywin and Cersei as villains. They do mention that they see Tywin as an utilitarian and "a man who believes in things greater than himself" or something in that nature.

[sj4iy]

I think he said they (D&D) don't see Tywin and Cersei as villains. They do mention that they see Tywin as an utilitarian and "a man who believes in things greater than himself" or something in that nature.

So? Who cares about their personal views on the subject? It would only matter if they had painted those characters as something other than villains...which they have not. They are most definitely villains, just not as one-dimensional as they are in the books. That's not a bad thing.

[PatrickStormborn]

If you don't think the showrunners have made her a villain in the show, then I don't see how you have been watching it at all. She may not be the same evil bitch from the books, but she just spent this entire season bent of the death and destruction of her little brother. She sucked up to those she thought could help her in that task, but that only made her actions more reprehensible.

If the showrunners don't think she's a villain, then they're not actually presenting her as a villain. I don't know why that's so hard to grasp. I mean, I could say that Jon is a villain in ADwD for letting the wildlings pass through the Wall, but that's obviously complete bullshit because it's not in-line with either the text or the author's intentions.

And let's not forget that Cersei only wants Tyrion dead because she genuinely believes he murdered Joffrey.

Maybe they do think she's a villain - it was just speculation on my behalf, based on their belief that Tywin (a man who ordered the gangrape of a teenage girl) is not a villain.

[sj4iy]

If the showrunners don't think she's a villain, then they're not actually presenting her as a villain. I don't know why that's so hard to grasp. I mean, I could say that Jon is a villain in ADwD for letting the wildlings pass through the Wall, but that's obviously complete bullshit because it's not in-line with either the text or the author's intentions.

And let's not forget that Cersei only wants Tyrion dead because she genuinely believes he murdered Joffrey.

Maybe they do think she's a villain - it was just speculation on my behalf, based on their belief that Tywin (a man who ordered the gangrape of a teenage girl) is not a villain.

People here hang onto every word the showrunners say about everything instead of just looking at what is presented and making their own decisions. If Martin up and said "well, I don't think if Joffrey as a villain," would that suddenly diminish his villainous acts? Of course not. Villains rarely do evil things for evil reasons...real-life villains do terrible things for entirely justifiable reasons. That doesn't make them less villainous, it simply makes them more relatable. But we don't have to think the same way the people making it think. Case in point, the director didn't see Jaime and Cersei's sex scene as rape...he was making it, so does that mean he's automatically right? Of course not, Jaime was most definitely raping her, the audience isn't blind.

[Queen of Whores]

snip

Never change, Le Cygne :Lol:

Anyway, for my list, (although you pretty much summed up most of my own complaints):

King's Landing

The non-stop snark and vielled and not-so vielled threats and insults got a bit too much to handle in the first two episodes, and some scenes just felt thrown in their to get the cast to chat and do more snark and "witty" dialogue (Brienne x Tyrells, Brienne x Cersei, etc). Tywin disowning Jaime was a massive letdown from my expectations, since the two are very fine actors, and the (vaguely similar) Casterly Rock scene in 3x1 was absolutely perfect (my complimenting this show like that is very rare, btw). Tyrion continued to be the reincarnation of Jesus Christ, but nothing new there. The Purple Wedding was okay I suppose, but some choppy editing and underwhelming performances made it a bit anti-climactic (but I guess knowing what's coming also features into that). I did love the War of the Five Kings dwarf reenactment though; that was quite clever.

Tyrion's little convos in his cell were very boring and predictable (oh look Tyrion is such a nice and selfless guy, how great), especially the one with Pod. Now, to Oberyn... he had a couple of moments of greatness; ie. the dungeon chat with Tyrion, and the actor was pretty much perfect for the role, but it was his writing that was a bit of a letdown. His sexuality was also way overplayed. We get it, he's bisexual, how amazingly groundbreaking and hilarious. The Jaime x Cersei rape scene was horrific and I'll never watch it again (I'm trying to wipe it from my mind completely). Overall, nothing remarkable or noteworthy mid-season for King's Landing. A bit of filler that was dull and poorly written, but I got used to that in season 3. Tyrion's trial was overall pretty good, and a great note to end an episode on, but it was a bit overacted by Dinklage, and knowing his character didn't progress any darker (like we all thought) afterwards made it kind of pointless.

Tyrion's talks with Bronn and Oberyn in episode 7 were great though, since they *shocked gasp* stayed true to the book! The beetle-monologue was dumb and a waste of time, and the dual, while acceptable enough, was nowhere near as memorable or intense as it needed to be. It was terribly edited, and a bit too rushed. Episode 10..... episode 10 was a fucking disaster, mind my language. Cersei telling Tywin about the incest? Wtf?! Jaime literally pushing his redemption away? WTF?! NO TYSHA REVEAL?! NO TYRION X JAIME HATRED?! TYRION KILLS SHAE IN SELF-DEFENCE?! WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?!?!

Okay, rant over (for King's Landing)

The Wall

It was nice to see Castle Black again, as well as some familiar faces (Aemon, Pyp, Thorne, Slynt). I liked Jon's little trial, and was liking the development of this storyline. Sam x Gilly were boring and pointless, but it wasn't too bad compared to other stuff in other storylines. Locke at the Wall... meh. I liked him as a character (and Noah Taylor is awesome), but seeing him get killed off so ubruptly... umm, okay then...?

I wasn't a fan of the Craster's Keep filler storyline, as well as Jon finding out Bran is alive. It seemed needless, and the way it was handled was ridiculous. It didn't help the fight scene also was terrible edited and lacked and form of tension. The proper battle/s at the Wall was okay I suppose, and I know they gave it all they had, but it just didn't have the epic and climactic feel it did in the book, and I don't just mean budget and scale (but that did play a part). Delaying Stannis' arrival seriously killed any sort of climax the battle had, and while all the scenes at and around the Wall in 4x10 were my favourites of the episode (mostly just due to the show not fucking them up like everything else), I still think Stannis should have arrived at the end of 4x9, just to give a sense of closure and finality to the Wall climax.

Meereen

Now, I'm not particularly a Dany fan (books or show) but I was willing to give her storyline a chance this season. Right off the bat I was shown two things: the new Daario sucks and is not Daario, and Emilia Clarke is a really bad actress. Unfortunately these two things were quite prominent this season in her story. They didn't even show the sex scene (that was meant to be super hot in the books) as a saving grace. So let me get this straight; HBO and Game of Thrones, both of whom are known for their graphic and many sex scenes, show countless ones that are pointless and a waste of time, yet don't show one that is important to both the story and characters? Okay then....

I'm glad the show didn't shy away from Dany's darker side (the crucifixion and her entitled and arrogant attitude), but since Emilia is incapable of handling any sort of emotional range, the character arc fell flat. Jorah's exile was boring and random, and the dragon chaining scene was the only half-decent thing she did in the last few episodes, but at this point I was beyond tired of the storyline. Oh, and as stunning as Missandei is (especially naked), I hated her little subplot with Grey Worm. It was awkward, random, poorly written and embarrassingly dumb.

Arya and the Hound

Two words for this storyline: pretentious and filler, and yes, I'm using both those words correctly. I'm apparently in the non-existent group that thinks Maisie Williams is incredibly overrated and annoying, and this shows in her performance. She can't handle playing a character with depression for shit. The pretentious and embarrassing bits of dialogue like "nothing is nothing" were already bad enough on paper, but she made them worse. There are too many things wrong with this 'arc,' like; the Tarantino-wannabe scene at the inn, the Hound's stupid Omar-wannabe 'code', Rorge and Biters' hilariously ridiculous deaths, Arya's embarrassingly stupid laugh, and the insane logic of the whole Bloody Gate scene (did they just walk away?!). The final scene between Arya and Sandor was very good though, because of two things, 1) it stuck mostly to the books, and 2) Rory gave a very good performance.

(I'm getting tired now and it's very late, so I'll keep the rest of these short :))

Sansa and the Eyrie

I've never though Sophie was very good of an actress, and Aiden Gillen is doing things with Littlefinger that make me shake my head and sigh, so pairing these two up for ages wasn't that great for me. Her scenes in King's Landing were 'meh,' and the escape was kind of dumb too. Littlefinger's reveal about the Joffrey assassination was a bit forced and anti-climactic, but I've almost forgotten those scenes so whatever. Lysa was alright, and so was Robin. The Eryie scene in 4x7 was overall pretty well done, and I loved seeing Sansa bitch-slap Robin. The completely random and weird events of 4x8 are completely random and weird, and I'm not sure I like the show going this far into future books. Sansa's sudden 'evil' reveal was also kind of cheesy.

The Dreadfort

I wasn't a fan of Theon's scenes post-episode 4 last season, so I'm glad the torture stuff is done with. I still do not, however, like the guy playing Ramsay. He just doesn't fit the character at all, and almost ruins every scene he's in. Luckily Roose is perfect, as is the actor that plays him. I could listen to that guy talk all day and be entranced. His two scenes (sadly we didn't get more) were awesome, especially the final one where he legitimized Ramsay (probably my favourite scene of the season). It was also a nice surprise to see the lovely Fat Walda. The Yara-attack scene was insanely stupid, however, and Moat Cailin (one of my favourite chapters in the series) was too rushed and boring.

Dragonstone and those guys

Stannis burning infidels. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuu

Okay, so right off the bat they done fucked up the character again, but moving on *grits teeth like Stannis*

It was nice to see Stannis show care towards Shireen, and I loved a return to the good 'ol Stannis of the books with the 'raiding a pantry' line. The visit to the Iron Bank wasn't as memorable or cool as I thought it would be, but heh, any scene where Stannis isn't burning infidels or begging for Mel's body is a plus for me. The scene between Mel and Selyse was boring and pointless (but seriously, dem tits and dat ass. Had to be said). And even though it seems like they tried to make his arrival as villainous as possible, I was still okay with Stan's scene at the Wall. I loved how he showed his respect to Ned, and by extension Jon. That gave me hope for him in season 5.

The Wench n' The Squire

Even though this storyline really didn't have much in it, I thought I'd make a little catagory for it anyway. I personally didn't like how snarky and rude Brienne was acting towards Pod. It seemed out of character. I also feel like they're playing up "Pod is an idiot" too much. He's a bit thick (like a castle wall) but not stupid. The Hot Pie cameo was great stuff though, and while I didn't like the entire context or scene in general, the actual fight between Brienne and Sandor was pretty brutal and cool.

That Other Storyline

I refer to of course Bran and his rag-tag team. To keep it short (I try not to think too much about Bran's incredibly dull life), I somehow managed to dislike his storyline this season even more than season 3 (keep in mind I didn't think this was possible). As I said earlier, I didn't like the whole Craster's Keep nonsense, and the whole Skyrim-skeleton ambush and Jojen's death was just ridiculously over-the-top and dumb. Bloodraven was also very disappointing (and he was the one hope I held out for Bran's storyline).

Well, that's it I think. If you actually read that wall of text, you'll know I'm not a very positive person when it comes to this show. Oh well, life goes on. At least I've got all this written down somewhere for the history books.

[Le Cygne]

Villains rarely do evil things for evil reasons...real-life villains do terrible things for entirely justifiable reasons. That doesn't make them less villainous, it simply makes them more relatable.

I know why Tywin ordered the gang rape of Tysha, but that does not make him more "relatable" - nor does it make him remotely a "lawful neutral."

[sj4iy]

I know why Tywin ordered the gang rape of Tysha, but that does not make him more "relatable" - nor does it make him remotely a "lawful neutral."

I completely agree. That was my point :)

[Frey Pies]

I don't know what was more amusing, that post or someone saying S4 was the same standard as S1. :lol:

I know right? How can they not see that S4 was clearly better? :o

[Cas Stark]

Book Cersei becomes MORE villainous and unhinged as time goes on...she loses any ability she ever had of reigning in her immediate instinct to lash out....

TV Cersei, it seems to me, is LESS villainous as time has gone on, she shows flashes, here and there, but she was less villainous this season than in any previous one. She's all about the children, saving the children and has gone all feminist, confronting her father, and even becoming a truth teller to prevent a future marriage. Odd choices.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

So? Who cares about their personal views on the subject? It would only matter if they had painted those characters as something other than villains...which they have not. They are most definitely villains, just not as one-dimensional as they are in the books. That's not a bad thing.

I just think their bias influence their portrayal of the source material. Tywin is presented as a cold, rational man of great wisdom more than a villain IMO. His most extreme actions are swept under the rug: Tysha, the sack of KL, his brutality against peasants, even Elia and her children IIRC are only addressed after Oberyn is introduced meaning when it was absolutely necessary. Also his moments of weakness when Joffrey calls him out about Aerys is greatly underplayed. And his conversation with Tommen about what makes a great king is probably the closest thing to a "filibuster" in the entire series.

[sj4iy]

I just think their bias influence their portrayal of the source material. Tywin is presented as a cold, rational man of great wisdom more than a villain IMO. His most extreme actions are swept under the rug: Tysha, the sack of KL, his brutality against peasants, even Elia and her children IIRC are only addressed after Oberyn is introduced meaning when it was absolutely necessary. Also his moments of weakness when Joffrey calls him out about Aerys is greatly underplayed. And his conversation with Tommen about what makes a great king is probably the closest thing to a "filibuster" in the entire series.

The writer isn't the only one influencing the character. The actor himself said that he was playing a villain, and played him as such.

We all look at everything in the story and see it differently. The writer's opinion on a character is not the end-all, be-all of opinions.

[PatrickStormborn]

People here hang onto every word the showrunners say about everything instead of just looking at what is presented and making their own decisions. If Martin up and said "well, I don't think if Joffrey as a villain," would that suddenly diminish his villainous acts? Of course not. Villains rarely do evil things for evil reasons...real-life villains do terrible things for entirely justifiable reasons. That doesn't make them less villainous, it simply makes them more relatable. But we don't have to think the same way the people making it think. Case in point, the director didn't see Jaime and Cersei's sex scene as rape...he was making it, so does that mean he's automatically right? Of course not, Jaime was most definitely raping her, the audience isn't blind.

I still don't think you're understanding what I'm saying... I said that I can't help but feel D&D are portraying Cersei so inconsistently is because they don't see her as a villain in the first place.

You're right that author intent is nothing if the audience takes away a completely different message, but there has to be some kind of balance. The audience saw a rape take place in 4x03, but the writers didn't write it that way, so the characterisation of Jaime and Cersei will not be changed as if it was a rape.

[Le Cygne]

I still don't think you're understanding what I'm saying... I said that I can't help but feel D&D are portraying Cersei so inconsistently is because they don't see her as a villain in the first place.

Agreed, I don't think sj4ly sees what I'm saying, either. I don't think they see her or Tywin as villains.

[boojam]

Brienne's fight with the Brave Companions had deep personal meaning with slow build up to that point - make her go Mountain and almost kill Sandor "for no damn reason at all"

I didn't like that sequence in the books, Rorge and Biter (from what we find out) are incompetent in professional combat, they are just thugs.

The book's Brienne should have killed em both in 5 seconds, the show's Brienne could have killed them both in 2 seconds!

Arya kills Rorge in about that amount of time, that was fine and believable to me.

[JagLover]

Jaime wants to be a better man - make him go back and forth like a seesaw, and sweep aside the White Book/bang his sister in the White Sword Tower in the finale

Dany is beyond infatuated with Daario - have her chide him all season for being infatuated with her

Cersei is a villain - make her likeable, because all villains should be likeable, they are more interesting that way

Sansa dresses and acts like a lady (boring) - make her dress and act like an Evil Queen (cleavage and seduction is not boring)

Brienne's fight with the Brave Companions had deep personal meaning with slow build up to that point - make her go Mountain and almost kill Sandor "for no damn reason at all"

Sandor's fight with his brother's men that led to his "death" had deep personal meaning with slow build up to that point - make it about chickens instead, and make the fight leading to his death about nothing (she doesn't want to go with you, go with her)

Oberyn (who expresses sexuality in interesting ways) vs. the Mountain took the focus off Tyrion for a few minutes - have Oberyn spend the season in THE brothel, then spend 4 minutes on a scene where Tyrion talks about beetles

Arya is deeply mourning the loss of her family, and is conflicted about killing Sandor, who tried to reunite her with her family and saved her life - just make her laugh and say "nothing is just nothing" instead, then not appear conflicted at all

Tyrion keeps remembering Tysha, then finally kills his father, who called her a whore - after showing Tyrion remembering Tysha throughout the series, have him kill his father because he called Shae, the woman Tyrion just killed, a whore

There's more...

To address some of these points

Do you consider it good writing for someone to "flick a switch" and turn from good to evil or vice versa?. Breaking Bad spent 4 and a half seasons on WW journey into darkness culminating in "Gliding over all". Are you saying we cant spend a few seasons looking at Jamie's quest for redemption. The show has made clear he is a fairly weak willed character heavily influenced by who he is with. If With Brienne or Tyrion his lighter, more noble, side shines through, if with Cersei darker, baser emotions predominate. It is the struggle to liberate himself from Cersei's influence that is going to define the character. Step one was her initial rejection of him based on his maiming, step two was him acting against her wishes to save his brother (in effect he had to choose between the two siblings), step three will be when he discovers her infidelity no doubt. It is that whooly believable struggle against the hold Cersei has over him that some call seesawing.

I didn't find Cersei likeable at all in S4, did you?.

It was not Sansa's dressing like an "evil queen" I found so interesting but some much needed "growing up" for her character with her conscious decision to save LF by lying. This is true "agency" for the character for all those book purists who spent all of S2 & S3 complaining that she didn't travel to the godswood to meet with Dontos (which hardly qualifies as such).

You cant see Arya's thoughts on the show so I don't see how you can say how "conflicted" she feels. I actually prefer the path the show has taken with Arya. In the books Arya was so f*cked up after leaving Harrenhal that her mother and brother being murdered barely had an effect on her. The show has gradually taken her down a dark path and again I would say that without her POV you don't know what she is thinking. In later books she could be the bright chatty "cat of the canals" who would slit your throat when she needed to. The way she chatted amiably with Brienne then her face changes instantly when the Hound is ready, or can act very caring to the hound at times and then stare at him so coldly when his usefulness is at an end, that is the show demonstrating something similar.

Tysha hasn't been on the show and, without a flashback scene, would mean nothing to the unsullied.

Just because something is different to the books does not automatically make it cr*p

[PatrickStormborn]

I didn't like that sequence in the books, Rorge and Biter (from what we find out) are incompetent in professional combat, they are just thugs.

The book's Brienne should have killed em both in 5 seconds, the show's Brienne could have killed them both in 2 seconds!

Arya kills Rorge in about that amount of time, that was fine and believable to me.

Yes, they are thugs that manage to overwhelm Brienne... I don't understand why that's hard to believe.

The fact that the Hound and Arya killed them so easily is really underwhelming considering Rorge and Biter were locked in the Black Cells with Jaqen... And it also undermines the irony of Arya saving their lives only for them to commit some of the worst attrocities we've witnessed in the series.

[PatrickStormborn]

To address some of these points

Do you consider it good writing for someone to "flick a switch" and turn from good to evil or vice versa?. Breaking Bad spent 4 and a half seasons on WW journey into darkness culminating in "Gliding over all". Are you saying we cant spend a few seasons looking at Jamie's quest for redemption. The show has made clear he is a fairly weak willed character heavily influenced by who he is with. If With Brienne or Tyrion his lighter, more noble, side shines through, if with Cersei darker, baser emotions predominate. It is the struggle to liberate himself from Cersei's influence that is going to define the character. Step one was her initial rejection of him based on his maiming, step two was him acting against her wishes to save his brother (in effect he had to choose between the two siblings), step three will be when he discovers her infidelity no doubt. It is that whooly believable struggle against the hold Cersei has over him that some call seesawing.

Nope, that isn't good writing, and luckily that's not what GRRM does. Jaime's move towards being a better person is slow and painful and entirely believable. He's still not a good person by the end of ASoS, but he's far from what he was.

It was not Sansa's dressing like an "evil queen" I found so interesting but some much needed "growing up" for her character with her conscious decision to save LF by lying. This is true "agency" for the character for all those book purists who spent all of S2 & S3 complaining that she didn't travel to the godswood to meet with Dontos (which hardly qualifies as such).

Saving Littlefinger did a huge disservice to Sansa's character. She's no longer basically a prisoner developing Stockholm Syndrome - she's complicit in Littlefinger's actions. That doesn't count as "growing up" because it just makes her look like a fool. She's keeping alive the man who basically killed her father.

Cutting her meetings with Dontos sacrificed two seasons of agency for Sansa. She was working behind the backs of her captors to plot her own escape. That was hugely important.

You cant see Arya's thoughts on the show so I don't see how you can say how "conflicted" she feels. I actually prefer the path the show has taken with Arya. In the books Arya was so f*cked up after leaving Harrenhal that her mother and brother being murdered barely had an effect on her. The show has gradually taken her down a dark path and again I would say that without her POV you don't know what she is thinking. In later books she could be the bright chatty "cat of the canals" who would slit your throat when she needed to. The way she chatted amiably with Brienne then her face changes instantly when the Hound is ready, or can act very caring to the hound at times and then stare at him so coldly when his usefulness is at an end, that is the show demonstrating something similar.

I stopped paying attention to this once you said that Robb and Cat's deaths "barely had an effect on her". Did you read her post-RW chapters? The Red Wedding destroyed Arya, perhaps more than any other Stark. After she rescues Cat from the river, she thinks that there's a hole where her heart once was. She feels completely empty inside. That's why she ends up going to Braavos to become "No one". She never would have done that without Robb and Cat dying.

Tysha hasn't been on the show and, without a flashback scene, would mean nothing to the unsullied.

This is perhaps the worst thing you've wrote. Tysha was an innocent teenager who loved Tyrion and was then gang-raped. Unless you think the Unsullied are both stupid AND incapable of emotion, it would undoubtedly mean something to them.

Just because something is different to the books does not automatically make it cr*p

The first correct thing you've said.

What makes something "crap" is the fact that it's crap, whether it's taken from the book or not.

[boojam]

Yes, they are thugs that manage to overwhelm Brienne... I don't understand why that's hard to believe.

The fact that the Hound and Arya killed them so easily is really underwhelming considering Rorge and Biter were locked in the Black Cells with Jaqen... And it also undermines the irony of Arya saving their lives only for them to commit some of the worst attrocities we've witnessed in the series.

In AFFC Brienne IV , Brienne makes short work of seemingly more worthy opponents (methinks this was the Stark men thing in season 2)... so no I don't find it believable Rorge and Biter could have overwhelmed her.

Frankly I don't think Jaqen was ever in the Black Cells.

If so it must have been for a tiny amount of time.

If he was , he probably put himself there.