R+L=J v.89

[sabrecmc]

Goes with J. Star's "rubies" theory. I always love that one b/c that quote by the Elder brother about waiting on the 7th just sounds so mystical. One of my favorite lines.

[Alia of the knife]

Well, if it helps to burst your bubble, I'm "only" 23 (good lord, y'all are making me feel like a child) with a double Accounting degree background.

Just shows good a writer Martin is, IMO.

Ninja edit: Never head of ^^^^^^ before.

One of the wonderful things about Martins work and this thread is the diverse age group.

I was a mere girl when "Every Rose Has its Thorn" by Poison came out, and remember when Pink Floyd's "The Wall" came out and Bob Geldof was the star. 😀

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Lyanna was with Rhaegar until before the sacking of King's Landing. They could have done a few things. :ninja:

[Consigliere]

Lyanna was with Rhaegar until before the sacking of King's Landing Battle of the Trident. They could have done a few things. :ninja:

FTFY.

[BearQueen87]

Lyanna was with Rhaegar until before the sacking of King's Landing. They could have done a few things. :ninja:

FTFY.

Just to help out, though Consilgliere, fixed it:

Rhaegar left the Tower to go to King's Landing before the Trident. That did take some time. Rhaegar was then in KL with Aerys' for a short amount of time before he left for the Trident; Rhaegar died on the Trident; the Rebellion's armies moved toward KL but Tywin Lannister got there first and Pycelle convinced Aerys to open the gates; Tywin sacked the city; Ned arrives and there is DRAMA; Ned rides off to Storm's End to break the siege; Ned goes to the Tower of Joy; DRAMA; Starfall.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Hey Jon,

I picked three of your lines that made me ask questions:

When Ned came back to Winterfell, he already had Jon with him..

How do you know he had Jon with him and did not send him on ahead?

It would take months to get from Ned was to Dorne if it was by horseback.

Something may be missing in that one-liner, not sure what you were trying to say. - ?

If you meant to say that Ned would have needed to travel for months on horseback from Storm's End to the Tower of Joy, you are probably mistaken.

Lyanna was with Rhaegar until before the sacking of King's Landing.

How do you know that?

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

:agree:

I wonder about the birth rate after the Robert's Rebellion with the men coming home....

[UnmaskedLurker]

As for the other earlier posts:

several of you use the word "giveaway" to describe why no mention of babies at the toj. Another word might be confirmation - as in, "without confimation you have no proof. The evidence is suggestive but not conclusive (as I've said before). Lacking confirmation the hypothesis is not permitted to graduate theory status. I think you all have created a really nice case (tough it is almost all "circumstantial evidence"). I just think you put too much stock in it. Maybe this is a generational issue (meaning, I'm 61 and I'm guessing most of you are 30 years less than that, at least). I've seen too many "sure things" not work out as they were touted to.

I think that once again people are getting caught up in semantics. The word "theory" can have different meanings based on context. I think on this board, if something has been confirmed to be true, it is referred to as canon (not a theory). R+L=J is technically not canon because GRRM has not revealed this fact in the series yet. Most people use the term theory to mean something that is not canon but for which there is evidence to support the theory. Sometimes the evidence is so overwhelming that it would be hard to imagine the theory not being true. R+L=J falls into that category (other theories rest on much weaker evidence but still get referenced as theories). GRRM would have to explain too many things that would not seem to make sense if R+L=/=J. But of course the proof will be up to GRRM. Of all the theories suggested on these boards, the evidence for R+L=J is among the strongest theory--but admittedly it is not yet canon.

Of course, this series is fiction and not real life. So it tends to play by certain rules of literature but, of course, GRRM can break these rules. But assuming that GRRM follows these general rules of literature (and he claims that he does in terms of not "lying" by, for example, making all the clues point to the butler being guilty and then have the maid be the guilty party). So the theory that R+L=J is not a "sure thing" in the way that sporting team might be for a game against a much weaker team because the author is writing the series with the ending already determined. In real life we are not necessarily given the correct clues, but to be interesting literature, the clues are given and they must make sense in the end looking back after the "truth" is revealed to the reader. It is almost impossible to imagine how the clues that have been examined that support R+L=J could still make sense if R+L=/=J. On the other hand, all of the purported evidence for R+L=/=J can be explained fairly easily as ultimately being consistent with R+L=J.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Hey Jon,

I picked three of your lines that made me ask questions:

How do you know he had Jon with him and did not send him on ahead?

Something may be missing in that one-liner, not sure what you were trying to say. - ?

If you meant to say that Ned would have needed to travel for months on horseback from Storm's End to the Tower of Joy, you are probably mistaken.

How do you know that?

Catelyn saw Ned with a baby. The baby was Jon. (In Winterfell)

Did you read BearQueen87's post?

[Ygrain]

I think that once again people are getting caught up in semantics. The word "theory" can have different meanings based on context. I think on this board, if something has been confirmed to be true, it is referred to as canon (not a theory). R+L=J is technically not canon because GRRM has not revealed this fact in the series yet. Most people use the term theory to mean something that is not canon but for which there is evidence to support the theory. Sometimes the evidence is so overwhelming that it would be hard to imagine the theory not being true. R+L=J falls into that category (other theories rest on much weaker evidence but still get referenced as theories). GRRM would have to explain too many things that would not seem to make sense if R+L=/=J. But of course the proof will be up to GRRM. Of all the theories suggested on these boards, the evidence for R+L=J is among the strongest theory--but admittedly it is not yet canon.

Of course, this series is fiction and not real life. So it tends to play by certain rules of literature but, of course, GRRM can break these rules. But assuming that GRRM follows these general rules of literature (and he claims that he does in terms of not "lying" by, for example, making all the clues point to the butler being guilty and then have the maid be the guilty party). So the theory that R+L=J is not a "sure thing" in the way that sporting team might be for a game against a much weaker team because the author is writing the series with the ending already determined. In real life we are not necessarily given the correct clues, but to be interesting literature, the clues are given and they must make sense in the end looking back after the "truth" is revealed to the reader. It is almost impossible to imagine how the clues that have been examined that support R+L=J could still make sense if R+L=/=J. On the other hand, all of the purported evidence for R+L=/=J can be explained fairly easily as ultimately being consistent with R+L=J.

Here we touch on a highly significant fact: while the individual clues may be disregarded or (sometimes) explained differently, all of them point consistently towards a single conclusion, R+L.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

We need to add all of the theories into together and have a conclusion. It's a science.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Here we touch on a highly significant fact: while the individual clues may be disregarded or (sometimes) explained differently, all of them point consistently towards a single conclusion, R+L.

Yes, my challenge to anyone who believes R+L=/=J is to come up with an alternative theory that explains all of the clues for R+L=J without R+L=J being true. I suspect that any theory that explained some clues would be contradicted by other clues. But more to the point, the weight of the evidence is just so heavy that it become hard to imagine how GRRM can avoid R+L=J and still have a coherent story.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Catelyn saw Ned with a baby. The baby was Jon. (In Winterfell)

Catelyn said that when she arrived with Robb, Ned was already there with Jon and his wetnurse. She probably didn't know whether she travelled with them or if she's a woman they found in Winterfell.

And such woman CAN'T be Ashara Dayne. Ashara Dayne CAN'T be any other woman people think she is because she has a very distinctive feature: her eyes.

:agree:

I wonder about the birth rate after the Robert's Rebellion with the men coming home....

I'm sure Robert Baratheon tried to make up for all those men who didn't come home. The first task of the King after the sacking is repopulate the city. There is a royal decree somewhere, I'm sure.

[BearQueen87]

Yes, my challenge to anyone who believes R+L=/=J is to come up with an alternative theory that explains all of the clues for R+L=J without R+L=J being true. I suspect that any theory that explained some clues would be contradicted by other clues. But more to the point, the weight of the evidence is just so heavy that it become hard to imagine how GRRM can avoid R+L=J and still have a coherent story.

Please do, random people! We look forward to the conversation :)

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Catelyn said that when she arrived with Robb, Ned was already there with Jon and his wetnurse. She probably didn't know whether she travelled with them or if she's a woman they found in Winterfell.

And such woman CAN'T be Ashara Dayne. Ashara Dayne CAN'T be any other woman people think she is because she has a very distinctive feature: her eyes.

I'm sure Robert Baratheon tried to make up for all those men who didn't come home. The first task of the King after the sacking is repopulate the city. There is a royal decree somewhere, I'm sure.

He was still doing it after he married Cersei and during the events of GoT.

[Aeron_Damphair]

There you go again, appealing to "consensus" on these boards...as if the number of people disagreeing with me on this thread (have you taken a poll, or something?) has anything at all to do with whether what I'm saying is right or wrong. Show me where my logic is faulty, show me where my book facts or other facts are mistaken, and I will humbly acknowledge you are right and excuse myself (I have done so on these boards in the past, more than once).

But telling me that you think everyone on the thread agrees that Barristan switching sides was dishonorable? That doesn't prove anything. It's - again - not an appeal to logic, but to the Bandwagon Fallacy.

The book-based fact is that in the story, Ned - one of the most honorable characters in the books, if not the most - thought that Barristan was an honorable man, and never faulted his honor for changing his allegiance after Robert took the throne. If you want to counter that, show me an error in my reasoning, or show me people in the books who thought Barristan acted dishonorably in swearing fealty to Robert, aside from Danaerys and Barristan himself late in the day (neither of whom can be said to be objective about it).

Once again you misunderstand me, but once again I'll take part of the responsibility because I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I was not appealing to consensus on this thread. I was appealing to consensus among Westerosi. In universe consensus, not in forum consensus. In Westeros switching sides from one king to another is frowned upon, but since he was switching sides to the new regime, he was ultimately welcomed with open arms. One act of dishonor did not ruin his reputation. How can the new regime hold it against him if his only other choice was to die?

When he later met up with Dany, however, Jorah and he were both traitors who had to be dealt with, hence the sewer invasion. Aside from that, I don't remember exactly what we were talking about, but I certainly did not mean to make an argument ad populum.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Barristan did switches sides after Joffrey dismissed him from the KG. He went to Essos to search for Dany and Jorah.

[BearQueen87]

Barristan did switches sides after Joffrey dismissed him from the KG. He went to Essos to search for Dany and Jorah.

"Switched sides" though, meaning it was chosen for him. I love Selmy but had Joffery and Cersei not thrown him out, would he have honestly gone searching for Dany?

[Aeron_Damphair]

Barristan did switches sides after Joffrey dismissed him from the KG. He went to Essos to search for Dany and Jorah.

Yeah, of course, he switched sides twice, first from Aerys to Robert (switch or die), then from Joffrey to Dany (switch or retire).

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

I thought this thread was about R+L=J.